Momarie, no one is flaming, no one is being disrespectful. It is a discussion that interests many people here. There is absolutely no reason to close this thread.
Printable View
Momarie, no one is flaming, no one is being disrespectful. It is a discussion that interests many people here. There is absolutely no reason to close this thread.
Thanks. Liz and Reine were being so reasonable and polite that I had forgotten why I started this thread. :straightface:Quote:
Originally Posted by Momarie
****
To Liz and Reine: Thank you, you've given me a lot to think about. So much so that I can't type a response to either of you that I'm happy with. I'm going to go off and think for awhile. I appreciate you taking the time to talk with me. :)
Momarie, most of us do understand the concepts here, but it is unlikely that everyone will agree with the oversimplified portrayal of the issue that you seem to be advocating. Our motivations are not all the same and our decision processes are certainly not all the same. This means that we cannot be neatly pidgeonholed into categories of "liar" and "non-liar" since there are intermediate states, each with its own possible justifications and interpretations.
Even if it were true that the thread only served two or three that would be no reason to close it. If you don't want to read it I suggest that you avoid clicking on it.
What were your motives for starting this thread?
As I recall you had written some things that were in pretty poor taste initially....
Or are you saying you were targeting me specifically?
What Sophie wrote in her original post were some obviously stereotypical statements attributed to women and a mirror-image set of stereotypical statements attributed to men. Anyone who didn't see the humor in that needs to see a laughter specialist immediately! There was no poor taste involved unless one so desired to be offended that they chose to interpret the statements in the worst possible light.
The whole point was that lying is not a black-and-white issue. Everyone evaluates each situation, considers the attitudes and feelings of the person they are talking to, and decides when to avoid discussion, tell the truth, temper the truth, bend the truth, and yes, even lie. That is how we survive as humans.
I was offended by the hateful way in which some people were responding to another poster. I didn't write down the names of those people, but I'm pretty sure I recognize the style of at least one of them. From your first post in this thread, you have been uniformly insulting towards me and anyone else who disagreed with you. You did apologize once for your most odious comment, but then you immediately retracted it when I didn't fall over myself to agree with your opinions. You've appointed yourself the protector of the GGs on this forum. You seem to think that anyone who doesn't agree with you is attacking them, so you launch counter attacks of insults and snide remarks--even when the target happens to be another GG expressing her opinion!Quote:
Originally Posted by Momarie
I honestly don't know why you're here. Based on your comments, I really don't think you like crossdressers. You may like your SO enough to put up with his crossdressing, but you've made it pretty plain to me that, in general, you hate our guts. Given that, I don't think you and I have anything else to discuss, so this is the last time I will respond to one of your comments. Henceforth, if you address me directly, you will get the blank stare. What's behind that stare is everything I've said here, and all the things I've refrained from saying.
I've been here a long time too.
The original thread ,I found in very poor taste as well.
I've been blessed to have met some wonderful people both here and in person, but with this thread , I can't , for the life of me , understand how anyone [ outside of a teenage boy ] could have found that Funny.
Presh GG
Whew!! This thread is still going steadily, I see. There's a bit to catch up on from my days not on the forum!
I guess the analogy was a bit laboured, but if someone is fundamentally not going to be able to accept CDing, would do all the horrible things all the CDers on this board fear in terms of spreading the fact they crossdress all over the world if they found out - then maybe that couple should just let the relationship die rather than spend years together on something that just isn't going to work. Just like it works out better to put those baby rabbits/fawns who have been rejected by their mothers back into nature rather than try to spend futile weeks keeping them alive when they're already doomed.Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerLeigh
For some people, joining any religion whatsover is 'a creepy cult thing.' I was thinking of the LDA church when I wrote the analogy to fringe religions (i.e. Mormonism), and there are a whole lot of them in around where I live. I wouldn't be happy if Crystal joined their numbers without telling me, but I wouldn't compare it to heroin or compulsive gambling... mind you, I am CERTAIN there are going to be some people in the world who would compare crossdressing to one of those two things.Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerLeigh
For many of the GGs who come to this board after being in a relationship for some time, yes. It can take some time to wrap your head around such an alien concept. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, especially in a marriage where the wife had nooooo idea about her husband's 'hobbies.' There are many women who have to learn how to deal with the crossdressing issues at the same time they have to learn to deal with the lying issues. From what I've seen on this board, the lying issues seem to hurt most - but that could be because this forum attracts more of the sort of GGs who want to understand why their husband is the way they are than just yammer on about how horrible CDing is - there are other places on the internet for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophie86
I don't think that active lying is necessarily going to have to be the underlying issue here. I've seen plenty of relationships where there are issues without necessarily active lying, and sometimes each individual person in that marriage has issues and hangups they bring to the table. Sometimes a CDer is so focused on his own feminine image that he seems to forget that just because his wife may not have time to spare to make the effort to be feminine, it doesn't mean she doesn't appreciate compliments now and then. I know many women who would feel not getting positive feedback and active support from their husbands as keenly as others would feel insults. It can cause issues.Quote:
So when a crossdresser tells us that his wife found out and now she's upset, I guess a nuanced approach would be to ask questions about the relationship and try to get a feel for exactly what the issues are instead of assuming that she's experiencing.
But to make that argument you have to hypothesize a context in which a lot of active lying has taken place. Within that context, I can agree with you.
Was that addressed at what I had said about crossdressing being Crystal's secret? Honestly, it would make my life easier to not have something to guard my tongue over... but I completely understand that she is happier being hidden and I would NEVER want to jeopardize her happiness.Quote:
In this case, the thing they care about is their self-respect as men. Things that affect the ego are very important to people. Just ask all the women who want to keep their crossdressing husbands in the closet.
Eryn, I don't have the most developed sense of humour in the world, and although I didn't think the stereotypical statements at the beginning were funny I can understand that when that sort of joke is offered up with a light heart and taken the same way, it doesn't have to harm others. The thing that really REALLY bothered me about it, was how so many of the posters on the first couple pages jumped on the 'women are hypocrites!' sort of bandwagon. One poster made a comment about how his ex who put on some weight was a 'weak minded bitch just like the rest of them.' The anger in that seared me down to the soul to read. I don't think jokes of any sort are all that funny if they encourage anger and hatred!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eryn
I once lied to my wife and told her I was donating to PBS when in fact I was using that money to sponsor a child in Ethiopia.
I don't feel like it was lying cause either way the money was going for a good cause.
To this day I tremble at the prospect of her finding out the truth.
It's pretty hard to have humor of any kind without conflict and stereotypical male/female bickering has been around since Adam and Eve. I don't see the jokes in the OP to be particularly encouraging of anger and hatred, particularly when it became apparent that they were being used to illustrate the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babeba
Yes, a few folks jumped on the "women are hypocrites" bandwagon, but no more than the number of people that regularly jump on the "CDers are deceitful liars" bandwagon whenever that topic rolls around. We are a diverse culture and you will find people with all sorts of opinions. The beauty of our culture is that we tolerate that diversity of opinion. I was also offended about the comment concerning the woman's eating disorder. I now know more about the character of the individual who made that comment and therefore will not take that person as seriously as I do those who are more thoughtful. His comment, though, does not reflect on the other forum members posting to the thread unless they happened to agree with him. I don't recall anyone doing so.
Pythos, many traditional marriage vows contain "forsaking all others....", and that refers not only to sexual affairs, but anything or anyone that comes between husband and wife. Like parents, for example. No telling how many marriages have been wrecked by one party allowing (yes, allowing) a parent to drive a wedge between the couple. Anyway, I guess we shouldn't expect vows to include a "it's over if one of you cheats" statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pythos
Some people take the vows seriously, so seriously that if there's cheating, the marriage is irrepairably over. Just my 2 cents.
No, I don't either. I just think that's where the focus should be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babeba
Yeah, between you, Liz and Reine, you've managed to convince me that relationships are too varied to generalize about. I was thinking of a simplified case where the lying was passive, and the husband was otherwise truthful; and I wasn't considering any other problems that might complicate things. That being the case, all I'll ask is that we keep that need for nuance in mind when a crossdresser tells us he's having difficulties with his wife. :)Quote:
I don't think that active lying is necessarily going to have to be the underlying issue here. I've seen plenty of relationships where there are issues without necessarily active lying, and sometimes each individual person in that marriage has issues and hangups they bring to the table.
No, you made it clear before that you kept the secret for her benefit. There are some, though, who really want it kept in the closet.Quote:
Was that addressed at what I had said about crossdressing being Crystal's secret? Honestly, it would make my life easier to not have something to guard my tongue over... but I completely understand that she is happier being hidden and I would NEVER want to jeopardize her happiness.
Well, I offered it with a light heart. I didn't expect that reaction. As you know, there are very few threads here that don't get at least some negative comments.Quote:
Eryn, I don't have the most developed sense of humour in the world, and although I didn't think the stereotypical statements at the beginning were funny I can understand that when that sort of joke is offered up with a light heart and taken the same way, it doesn't have to harm others. The thing that really REALLY bothered me about it, was how so many of the posters on the first couple pages jumped on the 'women are hypocrites!' sort of bandwagon. One poster made a comment about how his ex who put on some weight was a 'weak minded bitch just like the rest of them.' The anger in that seared me down to the soul to read. I don't think jokes of any sort are all that funny if they encourage anger and hatred!
Thanks for your response. :)
I thought the intentions of the op were good
funny is so subjective anyway...
There is a blind spot in many CDs thoughts about this... It really is a lie to skip telling your life partner about this...for many, it's an innocent mistake , and it's hard to blame a cd for the deceit..Many CDs suffer a lot over it.. But it's IMPOSSIBLE to get uppity around your loved ones reaction...
.you have brought in an emotional distance that is very hurtful to your wife...it is a lack of respect for her feelings, and I don't know of a wife that wants that..
The other unpleasant truth is that the urge doesn't go away..it tends to get stronger...there is a strong sexual component for many, and many CDs I know fantasize about it during sex... How can you expect your wife to be unconcerned with this? Many CDs are slowly realizing they are ts, or in denial of being ts ...many CDs sneak out and take risks that they would not take as a guy, many CDs spend a significant amount of money on clothes, makeovers or storage for clothes, and extra days on business trips, this is real stuff...
You can argue that all this is the reason you don't out yourself.. And each of us can make this choice...But this is truly when you are flat out lying, and I feel sorry for your wife...and I especially feel sorry for her if she finds out herself, which is a risk you take if you keep quiet about it for an extended time....all this is to say that it's just so unfair to be critical of your wife's reaction, even if it seems harsh
:love: ReineD. Good onya for keeping this thread in the game. I'm learning bunches and verifying quite a few "old" truths. I have with time participated here less and less due to the manifold Grumble & Bitch effects and the lack of support effect.
Refer to the Forum name.
This thread and the In the Closet thread have been superb in the support & education vein. I get enlightened effort from many posters and many views. Plus I get the petty diatribes from folks that point to avoiding them like a Japanese reactor. Occam's razor saves me from dealing with the foolish and greatly enhances my quality of life.
Thanks again.:thumbsup:
De Oppresso Liber,
Huntress
Just to clarify, the guy whose thread originally inspired me wasn't the least bit "uppity" about his wife's reaction. He was worried that she was going to choose to divorce him, and he was looking for advice. What he got from some was moral condemnation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
I feel pretty tame by comparison. I probably shouldn't judge what other people do by what I didn't do, but unless the person says so, I don't assume that he was carrying on to that extent. I have seen posts like that though. Next time, we get someone asking for advice about saving their marriage, I guess I'll ask just how much damage has been done.Quote:
The other unpleasant truth is that the urge doesn't go away..it tends to get stronger...there is a strong sexual component for many, and many CDs I know fantasize about it during sex... How can you expect your wife to be unconcerned with this? Many CDs are slowly realizing they are ts, or in denial of being ts ...many CDs sneak out and take risks that they would not take as a guy, many CDs spend a significant amount of money on clothes, makeovers or storage for clothes, and extra days on business trips, this is real stuff...
Is it really? Does she have carte blanche to react as harshly as she likes? Let's say a guy discovers that his wife has been cheating on him, and the two agree that they're going to try to stay together anyway. How harshly is he allowed to react, and still be judged reasonable? Some guys resort to murder, and that's definitely out of bounds, so we'll set that aside. But isn't there a certain level of harshness far short of that that is still just not productive if his intent is to save his marriage? She did a wrong thing, obviously, but just how much can he beat her over the head with it and expect her to stick around?Quote:
all this is to say that it's just so unfair to be critical of your wife's reaction, even if it seems harsh
The difference, though, is that the wife can and should stop committing adultery, but a crossdresser really can't stop being a crossdresser. If the wife makes the decision to stay, then that's what she's signing up for. There are lots of issues that he can be flexible about in order to accommodate her comfort level, but there has to be an eventual cease fire when it comes to beating him over the head about the lying. A wife who continues to react harshly beyond a certain point isn't acting in a way that's going to save the marriage.
Sophie thanks for you response.
If ANY person is in a relationship and they are inconsistent in their behaviour,..its hard on the partner. Certainly if your spouse supports you for years and then all of sudden starts freaking out, its a problem...its unfair..but you are splitting hairs.
I was talking about her initial reaction to finding out her husband dresses...the thread is entitled LYING..not I dressed with support for many years, but now she's changed her tune..
We are all over the map in bahaviour...if you've never secretly spent money, if you've never had a sexual component to your dressing (really?), if you've never secretly dressed in her bedroom, if you've never felt the urge to dress is so strong it dominated your thinking, then you have a point...and its just a fact that there are alot of ts's coping with it by dressing..
The fact that we can't stop being dressers is not an excuse for treating the person we love poorly.
Looking at your last paragraph, I'd go exactly opposite and say a cheater can change...and that's what the wife hopes if she stays.. There are lots of issues a wife can "live with" and compromise about..and lots of behavours guys can change for their wives...its true...
But a dresser can't change, and to many wives that simple fact means that your dressing is more important to you than she is...and when you get caught it's even worse because she feels she can't trust you..
and that's what you are missing when you complain about unsupportive wives.
And, if she has done any studying on the subject of CDing, she is promoting a selfish and self-serving oversimplification in the face of strong contradictory evidence. I think that most wives see this clearly and immediately move beyond the "he loves dressing more than me" notion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
Consider a man whose wife smokes. He would like her to quit. She hasn't been able to quit because nicotine is a powerful addiction. She may never be able to do so. Does this mean that smoking is more important to her than her husband?
My wife is infinitely more important than my dressing, yet the dressing remains part of me. It isn't an either-or situation and I'm glad that my wife doesn't think of it in such a way.
I must admit, I'm quite disheartened by the lack of humour in this thread. People take things far too seriously. I thought the initial post was quite funny, if a little obvious in its targets. There appears to be an unwritten rule that it's fine to crack jokes about male traits but it's not at all OK to do the same on female ones. Is it really that offensive to joke about pooping hangups?
The thread has gone off on a few tangents, mainly from people who clearly have underlying issues but are blind to it and think it's everyone else who is wrong.
As for the original point of the thread, maybe I'm lucky but both myself and my wife are pretty laid back about things and the few times something has cropped up that was previously an unknown, the response from either side has usually been 'And that changes things how?' and we just get on with things. I can't think of anything she's likely to drop on me that would mean I felt she was no longer the person I wanted to be with. Sure, we have arguments, quite angry ones sometimes (usually at, you know, that time us blokes daren't ever mention that might affect any person living or dead's responses to situations) but we always get over it and usually laugh at it a few weeks later.
Pretty much nothing is worth getting that fussed about unless the relationship is already failing in which case the SO might want to use it as a reason to call it quits. In any half healthy relationship, you really just need to shrug and put it behind you.
FWIW, my SO isn't hugely interested in my CDing but accepts I need to do it so it happens when she's out. We still are able to be light hearted about it e.g. "I need some new lingerie, that's your specialist subject - go shopping for me!"
you have a good point about smoking..and if someone sneaks around and smokes on their wife when she demands you stop..that's sneaking around and lying too.. and yes if he demands her to quit, then thats an issue if she sneaks around..Quote:
Originally Posted by Eryn
if your wife is good with your dressing..it doesnt speak to the issue.
if your wife isn't good with it, she has every right to demand you stop...she didnt know about this when she got married.
if your wife doesnt support you because she is hurt/angry/betrayed/ashamed/sad/repulsed/disgusted or whatever, and you continue to crossdress then you are putting your need to dress above her feelings. and her feelings about the marraige should be the single most important thing..
your situation is terrific and i am happy for you and your wife..
if you take my comments the wrong way, you would think i'm against dressing..i'm not..its a tough situation when a guy finds more and more that he feels the need to dress and to feel feminine and he knows his wife wouldn't like it..
and i feel a wife is well served by doing her research and hopefully concluding it will be ok..
but if a wife doesnt feel that way, she has every reason to wonder what else you are keeping from her, and it's not her "fault", she isn't doing anything "wrong", and it doesnt make her "not worth it"...which are all things i've seen people call unsupportive wives over the years...
breezily concluding for your own benefit that its nothing to get fussed about is a good example of totally missing the point....
I was talking about from the initial reaction forward, not something that happens several years after the first revelation. It seems to me that whether it's the cheater scenario or crossdressing, the SO gets a certain amount of time to be upset about the lying and then he or she has to move on. How much time? I dunno, but it's not productive to get stuck in that place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
As a matter of fact, I didn't, but as it happens we split the bills back in those days and any money that was leftover was ours to spend without having to consult each other. For several years after we started pooling money, we still allowed ourselves a certain amount for discretionary spending. It's only recently that we stopped doing that and now for anything over $10-$20 I need a purchase order, which I dutifully apply for and generously receive whenever I want to buy girly things.Quote:
We are all over the map in bahaviour...if you've never secretly spent money
Point being, different couples have different financial arrangements and the concept of "secretly spending money" may not apply in all cases.
I said I felt tame, I didn't say I felt innocent. ;)Quote:
if you've never had a sexual component to your dressing (really?)
Umm... Only on my half...Quote:
if you've never secretly dressed in her bedroom
Yes, I went through a period when it felt like a compulsion. I got better.Quote:
if you've never felt the urge to dress is so strong it dominated your thinking, then you have a point...
But look, you were listing things like fantasizing about it during sex, spending significant amounts of money, sneaking out, taking risks, purchasing makeovers, maintaining separate storage facilities, and masking transsexual desires. By that standard, I feel pretty tame. Does that clarify my statement?
That's the "If you really loved me, you would _______" game, and it's not something couples should do to each other. You can't use a spouse's willingness to give up something they enjoy as a test of their love. A wife can ask her CDing husband to make all sorts of compromises for the sake of her comfort level, but demanding that he simply stop is unfair. She can do it, and he can try, but it will be at the price of his happiness and the long-term health of the marriage.Quote:
But a dresser can't change, and to many wives that simple fact means that your dressing is more important to you than she is...
Well, first, I'm not complaining, I'm discussing; and second, I'm not discussing unsupportive wives, per se. I'm discussing wives who get stuck in a certain place where they can't get over the fact that the guy lied. If the goal is to stay together, there has to be forgiveness for the past and a willingness to set that aside in order to work on the future. I understand from what some of the GGs have said that the lying part affects different SOs differently. My initial thinking was that a month was a bit long to still be upset about it. That was based on the fact that my wife didn't spend as much as a minute on it. I get that there are different dynamics in relationships, though, so I'm backing off of that. Pick a time period. Six months? A year? Five years? Assuming that he's doing what he ought to do to make things right, I think five years would be a bit much.Quote:
and that's what you are missing when you complain about unsupportive wives.
I wanted to touch upon this concept since it pops up again and again. It is a myth that crossdressers get married with a malicious intent of springing their CDing on their new spouses after they are trapped. How many twentysomethings can plan a year ahead, let alone a decade or two?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
The reality is that many of us weren't aware enough to understand what CDing was before marriage. Nobody knows every single nuance of themselves and we cannot express things we don't understand to our prospective spouse.
Looking at the age thread, over half of us here are aged 50-70. The younger, most internet-savvy segment of the population is very underrepresented on this forum. Why aren't the youngsters here? Likely it's because they are confused about their feelings and haven't yet come to grips with the fact that they are CDers. These confused people are also the very same ones who are currently getting married!
You can't really expect either twentysomething to say "Dear, why don't we put our wedding on hold for a decade or three while I sort out all of my little nagging internal issues?" Nope, couples just jump in, which is likely why they included that "for better or worse" line in the vows. People change over time and sometimes the change is not what either of them expected.
Sophie:
How long is too long? It's going to vary depending on the people involved. Is the husband willing to slow down and let the wife catch up? That would have certainly affected how long it took me. Before you tell your wife, have you researched not only what it means to you, but places she can find information? I have heard many other spouses, together with myself, raise the issue of lack of information or support groups for us. Finding information while initially in shock and then trying to keep doing the day to day things like working and taking care of my kids and spouse, didn't leave me a lot of time for research. Have you followed up the initial disclosure with honest conversation. And whether you like it or not, it shakes our foundation and we question does he love me, does he want me, does this mean he is gay or transitioning, and if you dress very differently from me then does that mean you don't like how I dress and how I look. Reassurances of love and attraction are needed in large doses.
Provide us resources to learn, provide us reassurance, show us your committment to us, be honest in everything going on, don't go crazy buying clothes and make up that the family can't afford, and if a year has gone by and your wife hasn't accepted things, then I would suggest you aren't going to have active support from her, though she may be willing to live with it. Other spouses may have a different opinion although I suspect that most of us will say you are crazy if you think we are going to no longer be upset within a month. My statement presumes that in the meantime you haven't experienced other life-changing issues. My spouse lost her job 9 months after she told me. The financial situation created additional resentment on both sides.
From experience, forgiveness is easier than forgetting/accepting.
You are the only person introducting the concept of malicious intent to "spring" CD'ing on someone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eryn
How far ahead do you need to plan to know that you have been cross-dressing for the last 10 or 15 years? Form the introductions I have seen that is a low estimate for someone in their mid 20s.
The vast majority of introductions here say something like "I have been cross-dressing since I was 6" although that age figure can vary by a coule of years either way. Are you honestly trying to tell me that someone who has been cross-dressing since that age and who is now in their 20s does not understand what cross-dressing is? I would buy the argument that many do not understand why they cross-dress, but I do not buy the argument that after 125 years you are unaware of what you are doing, or how you think about clothes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eryn
I disagree with your reason why there are few 20 somehtings in this part of the forum, but I'm pretty sure that no-one in the Young Members' Forum is much over 25. My guess about why they are not posting so much in the main forum is that they get bored with the older members' threads. Either that, or maybe some are using Facebook to socialise with other CDs/TS's and don't feel the need of a specialised forum. In my experience, the younger cross-dressers and transsexuals have enough information to know that they are not freaks and also to know that they are unlikely to stop being CD or TS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eryn
I don't know where you get this idea that you need to postpone your wedding for decades in order to be honest with your chosen spouse about an activity that you have already been doing for over a decade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eryn
Liz,
In saying that there should be a time limit, I meant for being upset about the lying itself. Are you saying that being able to forgive the lying depends on being able to come to grips with the crossdressing?
I really feel so badly for the CD who inspired this thread... losing a relationship is very hard. It can't be made any easier at all by other anonymous internet posters getting on their high horses and passing judgement on your actions. That sort of action is definitely not support or helping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophie86
As to the point at which some wives can't get past the lying and that adds to the harm in a relationship - it's okay to get someone else's thoughts. Counselors can help many different people at many different stages of dealing with issues. So often we see suggestions on here for a couple to look for a therapist for the gender side of things, but it's likely many couples would also benefit from a little professional clarity on the trusting each other issue.
Eryn, I really do agree with you on these points! I completely understand why Sophie wrote the OP, trying to use humour to get into a very serious topic sometimes makes the discussion easier, sometimes it misses its mark. I refrained from posting in this thread until the tone had turned less woman-bashing as I didn't appreciate that tone - it didn't take very long, only a couple of pages. I think more the reason why this far in the thread I wanted to be clear that one post in particular really affected me was the fact it still felt a bit raw to think of it, and sometimes letting actions or words go by feels like tacit approval. I didn't want anyone who had read that to think that somehow it fit in as an 'okay' or 'normal' attitude about women.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eryn
HairyBeth, I have nooo problem with poop jokes! (stinky) Bombs away! :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by HairyBethCD
Rianna,
I think that many of the CDs on here take a long time to come to grips with parts of their own selves regardless of when the first time they felt the urge to try on female clothes was, or the moment that they actually wore something. I honestly feel that in relationships started today, 2011, there are really no good reasons for not discussing with an SO major issues such as CDing when they firm up or form, or when a couple begins to get really serious; there is just so much information out there and so many stories to show us that telling early can save so much grief. On the other hand, those couples who have been together 20-50 years have a lot of extenuating circumstances that may crop up, up to and including the CDing partner thinking that the urge to CD would just go away for good when they were in a serious relationship. You're right, maybe a lot of the younger CDs are open and on FB and more tech savvy and self-accepting... but at the root of things, they're still boys and therefore a group animal when they are learning their gender identities and self esteem. I'd like to think most under-25 CDers just don't need support - but somehow I fear that Eryn is right at least in part.
Please tell me: What is crossdressing? Is it a psychological illness? Is it a sin? Is it a fetish? Is it a perversion? Is it a kind of bizarre way of getting oneself off? Or is it just a way to relax? Is it a way to get in touch with one's feminine side, perhaps? Or is it an indication that one has a subconscious desire to transition and live life as a woman?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rianna Humble
If you can answer that question for each individual here, you need to hang out a shingle and start doing therapy.
Well, if a CDer is being accused of concealing the truth before marriage, lying, and therefore hurting their spouse by not revealing CDing until decades into the marriage there is obviously malicious intent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rianna Humble
A lot of us have memories of cross-dressing "roots" in their youth. I do as well. I had no concept, however, that what I did had a name, it was just an inordinate interest in things feminine. How does an inexperienced twentysomething male who is already testosterone-impaired separate an fascination in feminine items from the normal biological facination in females? To me they were one and the same. Of course I was very aware of the societal edict that "Men Never Discuss Such Things" and I dutifully obeyed. My point is that the act of trying on a pair of Mommy's pantyhose at age 5, 10, or 15 does not mean that a person internally acknowledges that they are a crossdresser from that moment forward. They might spend decades pushing those feeling into the deepest recesses of their minds before reality catches up with them.
You may well be right that some CDers in their 20s are more comfortable and accepted than when I was in my 20s. Our culture has changed markedly. I don't doubt, though, that others are feeling pretty much the same thing I experienced. Old prejudices die hard and I really don't see FB to be a reason that younger, computer savvy people aren't here in nearly the numbers expected. I'm on some car forums and the age demographic is actually stronger in the 20-40 segment than it is in the 50-70 segment and FB exists for these folks as well.
You do if the standard of honesty is that you have to resolve all internal doubts before marriage. I'm a reasonably well-educated person, yet for some reason I didn't really understand or come to terms with CDing until nearly two decades into my marriage. Life got in the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rianna Humble
Maybe they should have a large committee compile an extensive list of "sins" and give both prospective spouses a polygraph test before marriage:
...
533. Have you ever been late with your rent check?
534. Has anyone complained that you snore?
535. Do you really want 2 children?
536. Have you ever worn clothing of the opposite sex?
537. Have you ever gotten drunk?
538. Do you step on spiders?
...
I haven't been keeping up with this thread too much, other than scan for flaming. :p Frankly, I think it's a circular argument. It won't be resolved, simply because the subject is too broad, there are too many factors that come into play, and everyone is approaching it from their own personal perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophie86
Having said this and in answer to what you've just posted, I can only say that my SO told me about the CDing in the very beginning. He sent me a link that gave me a summary definition. As we got to know one another better, I had a lot of questions. There were many that he could not answer, and when he didn't know the answers, he just told me so.
It's understandable when a spouse doesn't have all the definitions for himself. But, not having a perfect handle on the CDing should not preclude someone from telling his partner about it, providing of course he has a feeling that it is not going away. But again, I'm sure you'll come back with an example about a CDer who is at the very beginning of his exploration and who hasn't even had the thought of completely dressing yet. If you do, it will prove my point that it is impossible to come to a meeting of the minds about this since again, there are just too many variables. :p
Try asking the right question. You were not asking "What" but "Why". Funnily enough the two words do not mean the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophie86
You knew what you were doing even if - as I said earlier - you did not know why.
At my most charitable, I would have to rate your answer as disingenuous.
That's exactly what I thought about your response to Eryn. When she said, "many of us weren't aware enough to understand what CDing was before marriage," did you really think she meant we didn't know it was wearing the clothing of the opposite sex? It looked to me like you were taking advantage of the way she worded the statement to score an easy (yet irrelevant) point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rianna Humble
What I got from Eryn's statement was this: The reality is we don't understand why we do it, we don't understand what it means about who we are, and we don't understand what it portends about our future. Ashamed of it, we explain it to ourselves in the most minimalist, dismissive terms possible, and hope like hell that we're going to grow out of it.
In the meantime, we don't tell anyone, because once you tell someone, that's who you will be to that person forever. Every time they look at you, that's what they will see. I did not want to be the guy who got his jollies by dressing like a girl to anyone, but especially not to her.
Sophie, one reason I like to participate in conversations like this is that every once in a while someone helps me to understand more about myself. Your interpretation of my statement helped me to do just that. Thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophie86
Hugs, Eryn
It is true that the CDing is an important facet of my SO, but so are other aspects of his personality, his chosen profession, and all his other likes and dislikes. When I think of my SO all of these things form the whole. I don't strictly see him as a CDer since he is so many other things too. I'm guessing this is true for other GGs who are in relationships with CDers, given some adjustment time after the initial disclosure, of course. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophie86
One thing you've said sends up a flag for me: the fact that you didn't want to be diminished in your wife's eyes. I've read many posts in this forum since I've joined and this is a common sentiment among the CDers who haven't come out to their wives. Might this be an important reason for the non-disclosure?
Honestly, I think that women are much more forgiving than men in this regard. I don't think we are as trans/homophobic. Just read all the stories from the CDers in this forum who go out and interact with GGs and who seldom experience issues with them. Either a wife will accept, or she won't. If she does, she will not begin to see her husband as a woman (or a man who wants to be a woman, or a "pervert" as you suggest) just because he CDs, unless of course he cannot achieve a balance with it and he wants to spend most of his time either dressed or engaged in CDing related activities.
I am so thankful my spouse knows and is very supportive. We went and had a manicure together at her suggestion and I had a fullset of nails and polish done. It was fun! Things were much more difficult before I told her.
How little credit you give others on this. You are not just one thing, you are an amalgam of everything. Even if you think of yourself as a bad person (which is what your statement reflects) this is not the whole of how a person sees you, especially a person who loves you. If your marriage maintains you to always be the knight on the white charger then one day that charger is going to throw you. You may maintain that illusion (which I believe is the crux of the OP) for only so long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophie86
I am many things to many people and many of those things I know are illusions the other person has built. My best friend insists that I wore all white the first time he saw me 'en femme'. I have one white dress and it has had a broken zipper since the first time I thought I could get into it, so I know that isn't true. But I won't dispel that idea. On the same subject, since I came out to that same friend he has added the crossdressing to his list of who I am and he doesn't dwell on it. He does joke (just as he jokes about my bad golf game) but he has also asked questions that were to help him see what it is I am. My SO's have always seen me as a whole person and not just a "man"nequin in women's clothing. If nothing else on these boards I would like to be able to help at least one person see that the fears that they harbor over all this can be far worse than the reality. The fear that you will be looked at differently...well that happens every day. Every day you add to how those around you perceive you. I wonder, is being seen asworse than the guy who sneaked around and hid something from his spouse?Quote:
the guy who got his jollies by dressing like a girl
I believe I know my wife better than you do. You can't possibly imagine how hung up she was when we met. That's not just me saying that either. When she looks back on it now, she says, "Damn, I was really hung up." She has said more than once that if I had told her about myself back then, it would have made her run the other way, whereas now she's perfectly fine. She has done a huge amount of growing in the intervening years, as have I. You could say we have grown up together. Speaking of which...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
I thought of myself as a bad person. I thought I was weak and unmanly. I now think differently.Quote:
Even if you think of yourself as a bad person (which is what your statement reflects)
To me, it seemed like a very small part of who I was, but I did not think anyone else would be able to see it that way.Quote:
this is not the whole of how a person sees you, especially a person who loves you.
A noble goal, which I fully support. I don't advise anyone to do what I did. Take the risk, and tell her.Quote:
If nothing else on these boards I would like to be able to help at least one person see that the fears that they harbor over all this can be far worse than the reality.
Fortunately, she's not bothered about either one. :)Quote:
I wonder, is being seen as worse than the guy who sneaked around and hid something from his spouse?
I just have to respond to this one.Quote:
AS for the quiting of the CDing how naive can some of you be.
It's that hindsight is 20/20 vision. Sure, NOW we know it isn't something we can quit. But I was able to successfully go without crossdressing for many years at a time when everything else in my life was going well; so I logically thought I would be able to do it indefinitely should things continue, well, well enough. I mean my life was never perfect, but as long as things were going reasonably normal there wasn't an issue. However I lost my job, had to take another at 40% of the previous salary, wound up working and going to school every single day and evening of the week, so the stress level went through the roof, and my support system collapsed. So it was only when I was already having trouble in the marriage that the crossdressing reared it's head again.
Lorileah, I know that you have got a great deal of common sense, and with talking about fears I think you've hit on a very important nub.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
It is SO hard to control an emotional reaction to things. Rationally, I am incredibly loving and supportive of Crystal. Occasionally, emotionally, I find myself overwhelmed by something that just catches me off guard. We human beings are emotional creatures. It is so hard to overcome that sometimes. I once had the sight of my boyfriend's painted toes throw me into panic mode, despite the fact that rationally I knew having them painted or not changed nothing about who he was as a person. Similarly, I'm waaay too embarrassed to let him read stories I wrote when I was younger, despite the fact that rationally I know he's not going to despise me as a person if they're not to his taste. You can know facts in your head all your life long; that doesn't mean that the pit in your stomach will feel that same sentiment.
Thinking of younger CDs, there's at least one other forum I can think of which is used by some pretty young TGs (mainly TS) on Gaia.com. Well, it's a thread in a forum, but it has a lot of great links and a long list of regulars. I'm sure there are other places out there as well.