Is the world today leaving us here behind?

I don't disagree with anything you said. Thanks for saying that. Let me offer something from the CD side.

I think there's a tipping point that I've yet to reach (and hopefully won't). Although it's impossible to ignore the difficulties, let's ignore the difficulties for now. Crossdressing adds something to my life. I have been compelled/felt a need to do it in varying degrees since I was a preschooler. I've had very few times in my life when I couldn't express it to some degree, but when those occasions arose, or if they were less frequent or somehow less of what I needed/desired it effected me from a well-being standpoint. Ahh, so it effected my well being! Poor me! I know that's so insignificant compared to you, and I know and accept that. Glad of it, in fact. I know enough of your situation to know that I don't want any part of it, and I know you wouldn't wish it on anybody.

Consider, too, that when I've indulged whether it was for an hour, a day, or a week, my satisfaction level with that experience wavered. Plenty of times I was an emotional wreck when it came time to go back. Plenty of times I thought "this is the way I'm supposed to live my life". Other times I was going through the well-known motions with little effect. There are even plenty of times when, by the time it's time to "go back" I'm ready. I'm tired of it. I don't know why I went to the trouble. In fact, the older I get the less I get out of it. I look in the mirror and see a woman struggling to stay young... and losing. That takes a lot of the fun out of it. It's a new thing that in recent years (especially since I cut my hair) I experience true dissatisfaction with it all. That used to never happen. Maybe I've peaked out. I was so close to joining you on the "other side" 6 years ago. What if I had?

Look. From a cd standpoint (at least mine) we look up to our TS sisters. We know that what you've done comes with enormous difficulty and requires unfathomable courage. When we say we wouldn't sacrifice our families, that means WE at our level of gender dysphoria wouldn't, and don't understand those who do. Surely that's not wrong. Otherwise we'd just all dishonestly claim an equally high level of gender dysphoria just so we'd fit in with the big girls.

I understand the hierarchy. Most of us probably recognize some. I know I do. We just rarely verbalize it. We probably all feel like we're a little better, a little prettier, a little more feminine than some of the other. Their particular brand of transgender expression is different from mine, therefore wrong. It's just more common and more acceptable for the TS community to reject the CD community out of hand. Then we get our panties in a wad. We tend to get a little defensive when a TS looks down her nose at us because to her we're just playing dress up.

I'm quite familiar with the fluctuating nature of gender dysphoria. Can I swear I won't be where you are in several years? Of course not. But, I can't see it coming. I'll admit that among the people who know only my girl side probably 34 of them think I'm transitioning. Yes, I lied. It was the pragmatic thing to do. I'm better accepted if I'm transitioning than if I was just dressing just for the fun of it. I'm not sure why people are that way about it, but they are. In those situations claiming to be TS was easier than admitting to being a CD. Doesn't mean it's easier to be TS, but there are situations where it is.

Paula, we've gone back and forth on a lot of very personal things for many years. We've been forthright about our opinions whether we agreed or disagreed. I've always left those discussions with respect for you. That's still intact from my side, and I hope it is with you.

Rhonda

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Originally Posted by Rhonda Jean

Paula, we've gone back and forth on a lot of very personal things for many years. We've been forthright about our opinions whether we agreed or disagreed. I've always left those discussions with respect for you. That's still intact from my side, and I hope it is with you.

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I feel the same about you Rhonda. I like and respect you, and would be honored to meet you someday. I can be friends with someone and not agree with them 100%. That's OK - sometimes that means I need to learn something.

Back to the topic. Here are some groups that are often not out:
- cross dressers
- polyamorous people
- BDSM / kinky people
- bisexuals
- asexuals

Here are some groups that are often out:
- Gays
- Lesbians
- Drag queens
- trans people / transsexuals
- gender queer

Doesn't it seem weird for crossdressing to be in there with BDSM & poly, in terms of hiding it?

I don't know about your grouping. CDers often do go out. Many don't dress unless they are going out!

Yes, my SO and I go out too and lots of people see us. :)

Paula,
We have exchanged many words in PMs and I'm grateful to call you a friend. We both have one thing in common that through CDing we nearly ended our lives, you have had a far tougher time than me, I know how sincere you are about helping others so they don't travel down the same road as you with the same level of suffering.
I find it frustrating that some members comment from a far too flippant point of view because CDing is a hobby to them, if it were just the clothes I wouldn't be doing it and put myself and my family through it . The levels beyond CDing finally ending in SRS are far more complex, we may get there by different routes or just stop short as I have but it's some rollercoaster ride and we need all the help we can get and thankfully we have the forum.
I try very hard to read between the lines on members threads, it's often what they leave out that's important and I try to get them to open up rather than give them a roasting and shoot them down in flames, it doesn't help anyone, we come here sometimes in desperation , we all need help at some point. Thanks for giving yours so freely !

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Originally Posted by Teresa

I find it frustrating that some members comment from a far too flippant point of view because CDing is a hobby to them, if it were just the clothes I wouldn't be doing it and put myself and my family through it .

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What flippancy? There were one or two heartfelt attempts at lightening up the mood because people were beginning to insult each other, but I do not see the majority of CDers taking TSs lightly in this thread.

Besides, the thread topic isn’t about transition. As clearly stated, the OP was concerned about how different factions of society perceive CDers and TSs and if as the result, CDers and TSs are being left behind. The OP then made some suggestions about topics (listed in the order mentioned in the OP):

• The current support of TS children by their parents.
• Whether gender is a social construct.
• How trans-activists offend feminists by upholding stereotypical femininity.
• The definition of the term "TG".
• Removing the "T" from "LBGT".
• Women who do not acknowledge that TSs are women.
• TERFs and the death threats directed towards them.
• The acceptance of men who wear dresses vs. men who want to be regarded as women.
• TSs imprisoned according to birth sex.
• The women’s toilet issue.
• People who advocate for the realignment of genitals according to their wishes.
• Not assigning any babies a gender until they can choose for themselves.
• Are lesbians transphobic if they are not attracted to TSs.
• Are CDers, specifically, being left behind.
• Are parents too quick to support TS kids.
• Having adults prematurely assign a gender to babies.

I think the OP should start one thread per topic and enjoy the conversation that ensues. There is too much material here to discuss all in one thread.

But, this thread has since narrowed considerably into just the topic of trying to get people who do not want to dress full time, to tell everyone in their lives that they dress occasionally (that, BTW was not covered in the OP), without regard to a member's personal circumstances (where they live, where they work, how open-minded are their communities and their families). This too, deserves its own thread, although I think this attitude disrespects the people who have made a conscious decision they want to keep part or all of their male lives intact because this is what works for them. This forum is filled with adults. Those who do eventually decide they want to tell others, I’m sure do. :)

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Originally Posted by ReineD

But, this thread has since narrowed considerably into just the topic of trying to get people who do not want to dress full time, to tell everyone in their lives that they dress occasionally, without regard to a member's personal circumstances (where they live, where they work, how open-minded are their communities and their families).

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That's really an overstatement of what I was saying.

My only point was millions of gay, lesbian, bisexual and trans people are out. Most CDs aren't. Being in the closet really is the past. Not everyone needs to be out - indeed not all LGB people are. It's north of 70% for L's & G's, and like 20% for B's. (Only 11% for male bisexuals)

We get threads here all the time on topics like:
- Why can women wear masculine clothes, but not vice versa?
- Why don't any GG's date us?
- How do I come out to my wife?
- Why do I have to lose my "man card" if I come out?

Visibility for CDs as a whole would solve these and other problems.
Want acceptance for feminine straight dudes? Fight for it - women did.

Want a woman to date? I bet there are plenty of women who'd date a CD if only both the woman and CD felt free to tell one another what they want.

Want to avoid coming out to your spouse? Be out when you start dating her.

Want equal rights? Fight for them.

I understand not everyone can or wants to do this. But more of you being out and visible would make a difference.

Or just stay closeted. You'll be left behind - you are your own best advocates. Maybe that's for the best and CDs are a dying breed. I was talking to a trans woman I know who is a former CD, and who was active in lots of CD clubs. She told me many of the ones she was a part of had morphed into trans support groups. Maybe more CDs are transitioning? I dunno.

But you know what? Never mind. Obviously y'all are better off as a group staying highly closeted. You get to keep your male privilege, for only the cost of lying and hiding stuff from spouses, friends and family. If y'all are happy with that, who am I to judge?

Just one thing I don't understand. At CD gatherings I've attended post transition (I never went to one until after transition), why is it all the CDs seem really freaking sad when they leave the event, and many of them are fearful and worried the whole time they are at a venue? I mean, if it's the choice that leads to happiness, why don't more seem happy?

Bingo. Bingos all over the board, Paula.

I suspect that a lot, perhaps most, of the younger generation who would, born earlier, have identified as CDers are either transsexual and realizing it and transitioning young, or coming to identify as something non-binary and expressing this in a more integrated, less compartmentalized way than classical CDing.

One problem for CDers in being out is that, rightly or wrongly, CDing reads to a lot of people as "pretending to be someone you're not." For transsexuals, one can say they were pretending before and only now telling the truth. For people who are non-binary, genderqueer, etc., the same, with perhaps less pretense, because there was less discrepancy to hide, leading to less drastic change. Some CDers who aren't transsexual seem to go this way. But the classical CDing presentation ("all man" with the occasional "all woman", for some definitions of "all woman") seems by its nature to fit poorly with being out.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

At CD gatherings I've attended post transition (I never went to one until after transition), why is it all the CDs seem really freaking sad when they leave the event

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Two simple reasons. When you are enjoying yourself, such as on a vacation, there is usually a sadness about it coming to an end. Secondly, the focus of such events has increasingly become about transitioning, which to a CD is of no interest. For that reason, my enjoyment of these events became less and less which was sad.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

many of them are fearful and worried the whole time they are at a venue? I mean, if it's the choice that leads to happiness, why don't more seem happy?

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They are closeted. That in itself lends a degree of concern about being discovered. One of the primary purposes of these events used to be to provide a safe place, a sort of sanctuary, where crossdressers could go to more fully enjoy their pastime and socialize with other like-minded people. The camaraderie and discussions used to help one to put aside those concerns for a while, in relative safety. Today, their concerns are ignored and it is all about being out and about and open to everyone. Crossdressers come away feeling more intimidated than helped. Their situation is unintentionally belittled.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

Or just stay closeted. You'll be left behind - you are your own best advocates. Maybe that's for the best and CDs are a dying breed. I was talking to a trans woman I know who is a former CD, and who was active in lots of CD clubs. She told me many of the ones she was a part of had morphed into trans support groups. Maybe more CDs are transitioning? I dunno.

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This denigrates CD's. Your friend stated the point I made above and in several other threads. CD support groups and events have increasingly become TG/TS leaving CD's without any voice or support. I don't believe more CD's are transitioning, but I do believe they have been subjected to the repetitive theme that their crossdressing is because of gender identity issues and they begin to believe it, whether or not it is true.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

But you know what? Never mind. Obviously y'all are better off as a group staying highly closeted. You get to keep your male privilege, for only the cost of lying and hiding stuff from spouses, friends and family. If y'all are happy with that, who am I to judge?

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But you are judging. I have tried to stay out of this conversation, but your comment about male privilege really annoyed me. This terminology has come to be accepted as a universal truth in recent decades, but it is a gross insult to the men I knew growing up in the 40's and 50's. They were hard working men who took their responsibilities seriously. There was nothing privileged about being the sole earner of the family, working 6 days a week, and striving to give an education to your children. They grew up not knowing if and when they might be drafted into the military. There were no governmental handouts in bad economic times, but they took their responsibilities seriously. There were few broken homes. Any differences between the lives of women and men, were rooted in our biological differences, and neither sex had any privilege over the other. When I observe the lives of younger people today, I often wonder whether all the social changes have done them any good.

Veronica

[SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by SabrinaEmily

One problem for CDers in being out is that, rightly or wrongly, CDing reads to a lot of people as "pretending to be someone you're not."

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There is nothing wrong with playing "let's pretend". We did it all the time as kids, and it is still enjoyed by historical re-enactors and comic fans. The theatre is basically a huge game of lets pretend. About twenty years ago, crossdressing was starting to become more socially acceptable, as support groups were opening up, and specialty shops geared to crossdressers were appearing in larger cities. But then the transgender activists began imparting the serious gender problems experienced by a few onto the much larger community, which tended to remove the fun and enjoyment from the crossdressing experience. Suddenly, if you crossdressed for pleasure, you were made to feel you were making light of the gender issues suffered by others, and so you retreated to your closet or you considered yourself to be gender conflicted.

I just don’t understand why some members are so insistent on homogenizing the members of this forum, as if everyone wants to live the same way. There is only one thing that is true here, and this is:

Everyone is different, with different desires and different goals.

• The idea that most CDers don’t enjoy being men is false.
• The idea that most CDers want to be women in bed with their wives is false.
• The idea that most CDers are genderqueer or genderfluid is false.
• The idea that most CDers think about CDing all the time is false.
• The idea that most CDers deplore not being able to go to work while dressed is false.
• The idea that most CDers deplore not being able to go to family picnics or their neighborhood block parties while dressed is false.
• The idea that if all CDers: one or three men out of one hundred people walk around wearing a dress or presenting as a female, this will make everyone embrace the CDing is false.

CDers who want to do any of the above are perfectly free to do so, and some do, depending on whether their life circumstances are amenable to a larger degree of outedness and the degree to which they identify as "not-male". But the decision to be out to any degree will hinge upon many factors: how much CDers feel compelled to dress, where they live and work, the open-mindedness of their families, bosses, coworkers and community members, how willing they are to live as outliers in the margins of society if they live in communities that tend to ignore the CDing rather than embrace it … all these things that are not even being considered by the "You go girl, you come out to everyone" cheerleaders. :p

So to highjack a thread where the OP was not even about whether crossdressers in general should come out to everyone and live publicly as birth-males who dress or present as women, and insist that full public and private disclosure and follow-through is the only thing that will help improve the quality of life for most CDers, is wishful thinking. In fact, it is more than wishful thinking, it demonstrates a dire lack of understanding of most members in this forum and also a disillusioned view of a crossdresser’s chances for marital bliss or finding new partners if single, job advancement, doing things with all their friends while dressed or making new friends outside of the LGBTQ community, civic involvement in any form … for people whose largest number of social contacts are outside of the LGBTQ community.

If someone works at home (or goes to work as a male), has a fully supportive wife and family, and limits their social contacts primarily to the LGBTQ community, then this is a different matter. Of course they can come out there. :)

That said, I support transsexuals who have chosen to absorb significant losses in order to transition to live as women, whether it is stealth or not-stealth (being known as someone who used to be male). But is this everyone’s goal? No.

Why should lesbian, gay or bisexual people have come out as a group? I mean look - most of us don't have sex in public, so why isn't that just like CDing, mostly done in the privacy of your own home? I mean, there were all these married people who weren't straight, but were in straight relationships - coming out screwed up some of their lives. They risked employment over this too. They risked loss of standing in their community. Some of them lost their lives over who they were.

Wouldn't they have been FAR better off if they'd stayed in the closet? I mean do people REALLY need to know your sexual orientation? (Unless you are straight - everyone wants to know about your wife, kids, etc.)

After all, what could 3 or 4 out of a hundred people who loved someone of the same gender do to change people's opinions about homosexuality. Seems like a hopeless task to me! I mean, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY people are going to accept gay people as friends, not ostracize them from families. They'll NEVER be a TV show showing them in a positive light. I mean, it's not like they're ever going to be allowed to be married, or anything...

So yeah, I guess y'all are right. The plight of CDs is hopeless. You are better off, as a group, staying closeted. There's just no chance for improving your lot in life, of society accepting, even a little bit, who you are. I mean, look at the gays...

I'm not denigrating any of you for not coming out. Your lives are obviously yours to live, your decisions about them yours alone to make. My only point is that if you are unhappy with the limitations on your lives as CDs, YOU are the only ones who can change them. No, it will not be easy. Yes, you'll likely face consequences initially. But I guess I have to say that the fundamental reason people don't come out is this - fear. Often times the fears you have are justified. However, I think it's not much of a life to live driven by fear. It's your choice to make - but I'm simply suggesting that you look at what others have done, what they've gained, and think about it.

And this is highly relevant to the thread - staying in the closest is causing CDs to be left behind.

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Originally Posted by Veronica27

But you are judging. I have tried to stay out of this conversation, but your comment about male privilege really annoyed me. This terminology has come to be accepted as a universal truth in recent decades, but it is a gross insult to the men I knew growing up in the 40's and 50's. They were hard working men who took their responsibilities seriously. There was nothing privileged about being the sole earner of the family, working 6 days a week, and striving to give an education to your children.

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You mean, like the guys who denied promotions to my mother, a single mom, giving them instead to a much less qualified man, because (they really told her this) "He really needs the raise - he has a family to support after all." As if my mother didn't. The idea that the man was the sole earner for the family is an example male privilege.

I'm not judging anyone.

this threat is a little exhausting to read, but probably important. As a CD, I'm not about to change the world to accept me as a woman, I'm a man and that's good. I do my best presenting as female when I'm out and about, this is only for me. At he same time, I think I actually do something positive, because people see me and therefore think about the theme/concept of crossdressing - eventually. If that helps acceptance in general, that's perfect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by faltenrock

this threat is a little exhausting to read...

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A little? :tongueout

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

You mean, like the guys who denied promotions to my mother, a single mom, giving them instead to a much less qualified man, because (they really told her this) "He really needs the raise - he has a family to support after all." As if my mother didn't. The idea that the man was the sole earner for the family is an example male privilege. I'm not judging anyone.

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I know nothing of your personal background or your mother's circumstances, but it has no bearing on my contention that male privilege is a myth. Men can also be single parents. I lost my first wife to cancer, leaving me as a single father with two kids, the youngest still in diapers. Nobody gave me any special considerations, and I had to knuckle down and make the best of the situation for the sake of my kids. That background had nothing to do with my comment. In my childhood, it was considered sinful to have children out of wedlock, marriage was until death, fathers were expected to provide for their family, while women were expected to raise the children and maintain the home. Responsibilities were considered more important than rights. Neither sex had any privilege over the other. Times have changed, but it is debatable whether it is for the better. Society has been turned upside down to the point that one income cannot support most families. My personal observation is that all the technology and stress today has not made anyone happier than they were when I was young. However, this is way off topic so enough.

Veronica

Male privilege (among other privileges) do happen from time to time, on the flip side, when you are at the bottom, it's actually much harder to get help if you are "privileged"

It does seem like this has become a debate over wether or not cd's should feel morally obligated to come out.

Isn't the whole struggle of the lbg and cdtg spectrums that people should be free to do what they want? If you want to come out for your sake, great! You don't? That's great too. You do you, and I'll do me and let's support each other regardless of the decision.
If the support is there we wil see more people comfortable with coming out, and they will be a better representation of the group as well. If you pressure people out, there will be much more stress involved, and the side that others see of us will be auch less happy presentation, which really hurts the its natural, and it makes me happy statement we want to make.

There are many different sorts of privilege, which many members of this forum (myself included) most likely partake of. Just because one has one or more (white, male, christian, etc) doesn't necessarily mean one has the others (education, class, financial, etc.). But the more you have, the better off you probably are.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gina-c...b_5269255.html

As I see it, CDs will be 'left behind' to the extent that they don't step up and claim their rights as people, in the same way that gays & lesbians did starting in the 70s, and that trans people have been doing in the last 5-10 years or so. Standing up makes you a target, but someone has to shoulder that burden in order to advance the cause. That's where the discussion changes to one about activism - it's always possible to stay stealth, let others take on that responsibility, and benefit from it when it comes through, but the fewer who stand up, the longer it will take.

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Originally Posted by Veronica27

I know nothing of your personal background or your mother's circumstances, but it has no bearing on my contention that male privilege is a myth.

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...said a bunch of men, while giving each other consoling pats on the back. Not picking on your post, but there's a theme. Just because your life isn't easy, doesn't mean a whole class of other folks' lives hasn't been rendered institutionally worse.

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Originally Posted by AlleyKat

It does seem like this has become a debate over wether or not cd's should feel morally obligated to come out.

Isn't the whole struggle of the lbg and cdtg spectrums that people should be free to do what they want? If you want to come out for your sake, great! You don't? That's great too. You do you, and I'll do me and let's support each other regardless of the decision.
If the support is there we wil see more people comfortable with coming out, and they will be a better representation of the group as well. If you pressure people out, there will be much more stress involved, and the side that others see of us will be auch less happy presentation, which really hurts the its natural, and it makes me happy statement we want to make.

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What Paula's talking about has NOTHING To do with a moral obligation, or morals at all. i've bolded part of your post. How do you think that the LGB (and now T) community built up the support they have now? It wasn't by pretending not to exist. It was by being out and visible, even when it was really hard, and saying "Hey! We're fine, actually, and pretty cool to boot, so let's hang out sometime". Neither support nor understanding can build when you spend your lives trying to be invisible.

All Paula is saying is that you can't expect other people to fight your battles for you and make it easy. TS people are not being left behind - we're being talked about more than ever. It sucks in some ways, but it's part of the process for getting to a better place. Make no mistake though, when push comes to shove and it's time to negotiate, I'm not fighting for CD rights and support - it's not my problem. I'm somewhere between happy and thrilled if we can get them as a package deal, but I'm fighting for e.g. ALL women to have consistent access to women's facilities while they still exist; not for men who like to dress up to be in the ladies room.

If you want support, rights, or any of a host of other things, you're going to have to be the ones that fight for them. Fighting that battle is going to require being out, and in numbers. Or, as the thread title suggests, you will likely be left behind.

I'm going to stick with the O.G post and say YES !!!....and NO ....LOL All the original points made in the OG post have absolutely nothing to do with crossdressers, and everything to do with being Transgender....this is after all crossdressers.com. Thats why threads like...

Trying on clothes at a store for the first time
* First Time shopping tips
* A documented experience on shopping
* A purchased pair of shoes
* Going out in a car
* Trying on shoes in a store
* Having a pedicure
* Reactions from SA's
* Playing a video game using a female character
are popular here.....
BTW....you forgot the pantie threads...LOL....all too I agree can be boring as sin, but are major milestones for some ( lets not forget we all be there at one time too )

and your later points are not covered here becausemost of the gals here are just cd's...part timers at that, . There is a big deifference between crossdressers & TG's...
most of my friends today are TG's...and yet...I am a crossdresser...so I see the things that concern them, all those issues you mentioned are discussed and shared regularly on social media..... and yet those issues have nothing to do with me as a crossdresser ( except the bathroom issue) ....there is a big difference if I go out with my trans friends to a vanilla resturant in the real world, and if i go to a cd party....2 totally different worlds with totally different set of issues, attitude, and acceptance.

Neither world is better than the other...they are just different.

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Originally Posted by Sky

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Originally Posted by faltenrock

this threat is a little exhausting to read,

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A little? :tongueout

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It's OK. :) There has always been a faction here who take any topic and turn it into a stab at convincing crossdressers they should be as public about the CDing as transitioning TSs (who obviously cannot keep it private). The more the merrier? :p And we will continue to have such threads, among the hundreds of other threads.

Left behind unless CDers step up and claim their rights as people? Well, that puts me in a dilemma, because according to some, as a male I already have too many.
Many of us identify as males and like it, crossdressing a few hours a day, week, or month. For us, it IS about the clothes, and we are happy to wear them for our comfort or pleasure privately. Yet we are often characterized as cowards filled with shame, hiding in our closets. I'm sure some wish for greater acceptance so they can get out and be out, and they can take action to help make that happen. The rest of us are happy doing our thing privately and have no need to come out, less concerned with being left behind than left alone. So there is no need for those who choose activism to dislocate your arm patting yourselves on the back for all that you fantasize you do for me. What you do is for yourselves.

Well something about this exhausting Thread woke me out of my slumber. :)

In regards to the theme of this site:

I love the more deeper philosophical topics. The ones that really explore the hard questions about what it means to be CD,TG,TS etc... But I get very much why those serious topics aren't for everyone. Cross-dressing is about escapism and fun. It is hard to find people in your life who also find it fun or even interesting even if they provide 100% support. I equate it to why I go to Star Trek messages boards to talk Trek with like minded folks and not my immediate circle of friends who just aren't that interested in the subject. People here tend to choose the deeper topics at their leisure which is just fine. As the great philosopher Cyndi Lauper once observed "Girls just want to have fun.":)

To the idea that CDs are being left behind and need activism:

As many have already pointed out CDers are not a monolith. The reasons for why we dress, how we dress, when we dress, where we dress, what we dress, and who we like to see us dress can vary in a millions ways. But we all still dress, we can unite on that right? Well what rights do CDers need? The right to purchase female clothing? The right to go out dressed in female clothing? We have those rights this message board is proof of men purchasing women's clothing and wearing it without interference from the law. CDers talk about the issues that face them on this board every day. They mostly deal with problem with the spouse or bad reactions from a few people in public. But these discriminations are personal and private ones not public and do not require public government intervention. What would we have a federal injunction against a wife's DADT policy delivered by a U.S. attorney? Should we have police fine or arrest people who points and laughs at a CDer in public? I wouldn't want to live in that society. The fundamental right that allows us to express ourselves through cross-dressing is the same right that allows people to feely have a contrary opinion to our cross-dressing.

To the issue of CDers coming out:

I used to dream about going out fully dressed it seemed like the ultimate experience and yes it was my fears that kept me back, but those fears were unfounded. I finally did go out went to a transformation service and everything. I would go out from time to time always waiting till I could afford another makeover. ( I never had the inclination to learn cosmetics) Sometimes I couldn't wait until my makeover bank was full again so I would go out. Yes out without makeup or a wig. Just me from the neck down enfemme 40DD filled bra in my sleeveless blouse that had a bunch of gauzy fill , homemade hip pads that gave me very shapely 50" hips in my jeans, and 6" heels, neck up all me scruffy beard and buzzed cut hair. Well I don't know about you but that has got to be one of the most fearless ways to go out in public cross-dressed. And do you know what? People didn't care I wasn't chased through the streets by an angry mob with torches and pitchforks. Sure there were some odd looks, some eye-rolls but so what the trick is not to take it personally and to own it. Whenever I saw a person looking a me with a huge smile that was stifling a giggle I would smile back knowingly and giggle myself. This would break the tension for both them and myself. I realized that it wasn't about me personally but it was just a natural reaction to the odd situation I was presenting them with, a man wearing women's clothing with a Rubenesque body and a scruffy guy's head. People are allowed to fine that odd without it being personal. Wrapping too much of your own identity into cross-dressing leaves you vulnerable to taking reactions to your cross-dressing personally.

But as I was getting the hang of being out and brave I also wasn't having much fun, certainly not as much fun as my fantasies were advertising. I often found myself all dressed up with nothing to do. I rather do my usual hobbies dressed as a guy for comfort and other simple practical reasons. And if I was going to dress up I wanted whatever activity to involve being dressed. Being dressed at the mall just became mundane and I didn't really feel like I was being me. So I stopped going out not out of fear but because to just be out wasn't why I cross-dress. It was easier and more relaxing just to be out dressed as a man for many reasons but mostly because it is who I am and how I want the world to see me as.

So fear may keep a number of CDers from going out but that is their own personal hurtle that they need to get over. And reading stories here is probably the best way they can get over it. But I would say the larger number of CDers don't go out because simply it just not who they are. They simply enjoy doing it for escapism when and where they like and engage the rest of the world simply as themselves.

Are we still on crossdressers.com?
Thanks Reine - you have said what needed to be said in a much more articulate manner than I ever could.
Yes, it's a truism to say that if CDers want their 'rights' then they need to get out of the closet and go get 'em (their rights that is!).
However, to those who suggest that, by not adopting a "damn the torpedoes" approach, we closet-dwellers as somehow "letting the side down" I will simply say this -
We are all different. Each of us has different circumstances. Just like you, I have a cost/benefit analysis to do. Your cost/benefit analysis had led to you taking a certain path which may have resulted in you being more or less visible as 'T'. That's fine.
However, you are not me. Your circumstances are not mine - they never were. You may once have had circumstances that looked a lot like mine but, trust me, they were different. So please, let me come to my own conclusions as to how 'out' I can/want/need to be.
I'm not going to presume to comment on your choices except to say this - I think that I can safely say that the vast majority will have been governed by your perception of what was/is best for you rather than the potential benefit of any cause. Please let me do the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NicoleScott

The rest of us are happy doing our thing privately and have no need to come out, less concerned with being left behind than left alone.

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If you are content to be left alone to do your own thing in private and aren't concerned with how a CD who is out or who has been outed might be treated, then that is entirely your business - and your right. Not everybody here sees a need for activism, or wants to be involved, and that's their prerogative. And nobody is saying that you must be out or, if you are, that you must be an activist - only that, if you want to be out, someone has to engage in activism on your behalf, because public acceptance does not come automatically.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Judith96a

Yes, it's a truism to say that if CDers want their 'rights' then they need to get out of the closet and go get 'em (their rights that is!).

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I agree. People can say it as much as they want to, but it's just not realistic. Even if ALL CDers were to come out immediately, tell their families, bosses, and everyone else they are CDers and follow through by dressing at work and in their neighborhoods, the world would not change. And this is because there simply are not enough CDers to sway the 95%-99% of the population into thinking that doing this is a good thing.

It took 100% of women wearing pants to make it normal. If only 1%-3% had gone for it, it would still be considered outré and these women would still be thought of as "different" along with all the negative consequences of being thought of that way.

Maybe I am misunderstanding but I thought to say something is a truism means it is self evident. That surely means it is realistic. If all CDers came out then it would surely have an effect. It does not even need that. Prejudice works best when a minority can be dehumanised. When the minority has a face, be it Caitlyn Jenner or your best friend, then it is harder to discriminate.
If you are right, Reine, then there is no hope for CDers and it is probably best if they stop wanting acceptance and just accept that they are lost.

Did it really take 100% of women to start wearing pants to make it normal. I doubt 100% of women wear pants now. More likely it became acceptable long before the majority joined in.

Making something acceptable requires action and courage. Visibility is the key.

Personally I do not care if CDers come out or not. That is their problem. I am fed up of TS being told that they are letting the "transgender community" down by people who are happy to stay hidden. I know how tough it is to come out to everyone and live your life as a woman. I have done it.

By the way I think Paula Q has really nailed it on this thread.