Aspects I Don't Understand

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Originally Posted by sobe1ove GG

I feel like if he was a full time lady, full time Leah B, he would no longer be David. David would be gone. He disagrees though saying that the same thoughts and feelings are still there. While I agree, thoughts and feelings aren't the only thing that makes someone special. If he looks different, acts different, identifies as a completely separate gender, has a different name, has a bit different interests (or added interests), then how could he possibly be David anymore?

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When I was a remote, socially awkward nerdy jerk, emotionally starved and cruel and arrogant, I knew that I was not mentally and emotionally whole and happy. I feared that I might actually become whole, and in the process, die, as I knew myself.

I'm still here, and the anguished jerk is still here, though seldom in control. I bring out everything beautiful about that jerk that his jerkiness covered over...everything that in his heart he really WANTED to bring out but didn't have a clue about how to do it.

I, the watcher, the tender of the Miracle of Life in this body, am, and always was, and shall, for the remainder of Life's tenure in this body, always be present, and be the spark in these eyes.

There is the choice of which level of consciousness you want to live in, that one which transcends appearances, that one that is attached to appearances ?

I am attached to my appearance as a means of inducing this (psuedo?)feminine beingness that expands my consciousness. I believe that consciousness is the main event....

I am also a cultural being, hormonally driven, attuned by my upbringing to judge people as I see them...that part of my brain does not transcend...I either go with it, or lovingly let go of it. I think this would be harder if I were younger, say younger than 35....I really think hormones drives it.

Leah is killing David's Habits and Appearance, not the Soul that is David. To which are you attached most ? If the balance is even or weighted towards appearance and habit, then the loss of David can be very disruptive.

David is a made up name, even his given name is a made up name. Even his culture and male persona are made up and trained into him. If you are attached to the trained results, other persons are attached to their training and feel like it IS them. Some have been trained similar to how David has been, and may share some of his endearing quirks and visual peculiarities. Happy Hunting ! (being cruel to be kind here, Sobe, but definitely intend no meanness.)

You also may be attached to how this looks to others. I leave that exercise to the reader.

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[snip]I don't think so.

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Neither do I.

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But if there is care with the time frame that things happen, and if the SO/GG is willing to grow and accept and figure this out, then it could be seen as an obligation for the CDer to accommodate her.

What does everyone think of this?

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I'd look for mutual accomodation. A healthy tension has an equal and opposite force on both ends. As much as he wants more CD freedom, she should strive to support that much freedom. However she needs him to limit his CD freedom, thats how much he should strive he could live with.

Instead of a tug of war between these complementary wants and needs, let it be dance where each celebrates the dreams of the other, and supports and sacrifices for the limitations of the other.

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Sobe

::EDIT:: I also wanted to clarify my original post. I mentioned the 1950s. I didn't mean to say that fifties fashion is bad for anyone. I LOVE it in fact. Check out daddyos.com for my clothing wishlist. I want everything! What I meant was the 1950s attitude. Women are supposed to wear dresses and stay at home and cook and clean and so forth. It seems like some CDers are stuck in that mentality. That's what I meant.

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So many of us are middle-aged and grew up in the 60's, or earlier. It is no wonder that this ZeitGeist should be current and common among us.

It is, however not a blanket rule for all who flow with it. I love the 50's ideal, and laughingly cast it aside when its time to don the LBD or Silver Lame Confection and go paint the town Red ! or put on the Low Rise Jeans and go out for a hike or for casual shopping.

:rose: Roberta :rose:

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Originally Posted by Tree GG

Behaviors have changed. The dynamic of the relationship that was is gone - dead - and a new one has to be built (or not).

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Yup, that is true enough, the dynamic of the relationship will change and therein lies half the problem, the SO has to learn how to relate to a TG person and not a stereotypical male, and will also have to think about social stigmatization.

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Denying that the femme personna "kills" the male personna because the male never really existed is bunk as well. Pat yourselves on the back, you did a great job of creating and selling this guy to everyone. We bought it and many of us love it.

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I don't agree and let me explain why. The male persona is not just a complete fabrication, it is not a character picked from a book. The male persona is based upon the actual real underlying personality which is why most male personas presented by TGs contain plenty of clues of the underlying femininity. The male persona IS based upon a real person, it is simply embellished with male attributes to make it appear to fit in with other's expectations while suppressing the feminine attributes.

Think of it this way. Leah is a rose bush. All along she wanted to bloom large red perfumed petals to be considered beautiful but she could not. Instead she pinned artificial thorns all over her stems to pretend she was male. Now she is removing the false thorns and is allowing her natural flowers to blossom. Leah is still the same bush. Allowing her natural blossom to emerge has not killed off the bush, it is still there as before. To your eyes she looks different so you assume this is a different bush. It is not.

What is happening is that the balance of masculine and feminine qualities which make up an individual is being altered. This happens all the time, everyone changes bit by bit. The difference here is that the change in a TG coming out of the closet is much more sudden and more dramatic than we are used to dealing with.

I can understand that you may perceive this change to mean that one persona has been killed by the other producing a different person. But masculine and feminine qualities are the flowers and thorns of bushes, they are obvious external aspects of a bush's appearance but their appearance or disappearance does not alter the underlying structure of the bush, the roots, stems, branches and leaves are still intact.

What has died is the old relationship dynamic that was based upon the false presentation of the TG. The SO's hopes and expectations of a normal relationship to a normal man has died. Leah still has the same feelings, thoughts and emotions as before, it is how she presents this to the outside world that has altered.

as "Frank" might say ?

Opinion's get deep , while reality ...as in life is "What it IS " eh??
... looking at life on "life's" terms is not such a bad thing ??
ikeeptrying-""K"

What a great thread. So many important and wise things have been said, and so much honesty is being dug into here.

I really don't have much to add. EDIT (haha, sure Kez...:rolleyes:). I feel kind of out of the loop, but I'm glad to see so many perspectives being discussed.

The only thing I can say is to agree that Leah/David are and will always be the same person at core - it's the same soul. Where that soul is moving to may be a better and happier place. Or she/he may be travelling down the wrong road. None of us knows if we're on the right path - we have to rely on experience, guidance, dreams and hopes, and in the case of TG people I think most importantly instinct.

Everyone on this forum is unique so it's not fair to speak for Leah. I can only say from my own experience that first of all my journey surprises and scares me as much as it does my partner. I have many days I wish I could turn it all back, shuck it aside, forget about it, just get on with being a man, etc... It would make life so much easier. Do you think I enjoy always feeling misplaced, confused, lost and unsure of where to go and how to get there? Do you think I enjoy putting my partner through all this? If I were to choose to present as much as possible to the world as how I felt inside it would take money, time and pain, a lot of very physical pain and taking medical risks with my body. Why would anyone even contemplate doing something like that unless they felt they had no choice - that it was the right way to go to attain something all of us want - happiness.

Even if someone isn't Transexual, many crossdressers ARE transgendered and that means identifying in different ways as the opposite gender. Identifying means that's who/what you are, and when we recognize those aspects of ourselves we attain happiness and completion and are generally better people for it. Many TG people don't have to be male or female entirely - it depends on the person and it can depend on where they are in their lives and their spiritual growth.

And has been pointed out here, society tends to divide us gender wise so even though it's possible that by definition MOST of the population could be TG (men and women) we aren't free to express or explore that, so we are still marginalized and our lives are made more traumatic and difficult than it needs to be.

Leah, like anyone who is travelling down this road, needs to go down it with her eyes wide open. And yes, Sobe, that does mean she needs to know where her moves place you. The only way you guys can survive as a couple going down the road she seems to be on is by doing it together, checking every twist in the path and waiting for each other to catch their breath. It's really hard to do. It means not only expressing what you feel to each other, but KNOWING what you feel, and that can be really hard to sort out sometimes especially with crap like this. I don't know if Leah feels the same way, but as much as I treasure and value my TG self awareness now, it's still crap that it has to be this way. I, and my partner I'm sure, would have loved to have me BE the more loving, happy, kinder, fully engaged person I am becoming without it having to be fuelled by my gender issues. The thing is, and this is no slight on my partner or my family or anyone else who has loved me for who I have been, because I AM transgendered, it means that as long as I deny that aspect of my being I will NEVER be truly happy. I will always be incomplete and feel unfulfilled.

I know some of you are probably thinking 'well, we're all like that...that's why people seek spirituality and other ways of fulfillment. Why do you have to choose being transgender?'

And of course, and I know this because I keep trying to "unchoose" it unsuccessfully, it's because I never did choose it in the first place. Did I know about it a long time? Well, yes and no - mainly no because I had no language for it, I didn't understand it, I thought it was wrong and made me a freak, I thought I could outgrow it, I thought it was just a kink - a fetish - a silly dream. It was when, after so many years of being fundamentally unhappy and out of place, I began to accept some things that things started clicking in place, like pieces to a puzzle. It wasn't manipulative on my part. Like I said, I was surprised too. And the puzzle isn't complete and I have no idea when or if it will be - I suspect like life itself I'll always be a work in progress. I hope my partner does understand that - I think she does because I see changes in her and realize she has not only become quite a different person than when we first met, but that she will be quite different in the future. And that actually is exciting and makes me want to journey with her. I think she feels the same way about me. We just have to make sure we stop and check with each other, because it is easy for one to get carried away and the other to feel left behind.

So I really do hope you guys find a way to journey together Sobe. :hugs:

I hope you don't mind me going on about myself here. I guess I was trying to give you an idea of how Leah might be feeling and why it feels sometimes that it seems more important than the relationship you have established already. It doesn't have to be the end of things - it can be a new beginning and new growth together.

The fairest thing for each of you as individuals is to be true to your own selves and be honest with each other. That way you will know when the road one is taking is not the same road the other is willing to travel on. And if it comes to that, that is where a hard decision will have to be made. I'm under no illusions. Despite 23 years together, it could still happen to me and my life partner and best friend. I hope not, and I hope it doesn't come to that with you guys.
:hugs::love:

I feel your pain. However...

If your husband REALLY developed a life threatening disease, something he had no control over, you would not say, "The jerk... all he wants me to do is change his bedpan." You would dedicate yourself to making him well and whole again. You can argue that this is not life threatening (even though you claim that you grieve like he is dead,) but did you know that, at least for transsexuals, 20% of them commit suicide because they cannot find a way to get happiness? This is not a flimsy construct that your SO has dreamed up. He didn't wake one morning and say to himself, "You know, THAT might be fun!"

Some wives get it, others don't. If you accept it, you get to keep him happy. If you don't, you will make him miserable and closeted. You argue that you grieve like he is dead to you. I am sure that you are a nice person, but this sounds very callous and insensitive. You know he is still there. The fact that he wears a dress on Sunday morning might seem very alien to you, and you might have a problem even looking at him. You might resent the impingement on your femininity, you might feel like you are looosing control over the way "things are supposed to be." But come Monday morning, he still goes to his job, likes the same TV shows, enjoys the same hobbies, cuts the lawn, takes you to dinner, rubs your back. You still get the same jokes, enjoy the same movies, believe in the same things. Often, if you give acceptance, it makes him even more grateful for you...He is not dead, and to claim that is just a bit of psychodrama. You are building a case out of your resentment. Someone is kicking and screaming, but it is not him....

He is showing you a side of him that no one has EVER seen. IT was allways there. He trusted you enough to display himself completely to you. Out of every single person in the world, you were the one he came to. He is not someone else. This is another side of the person you fell in love with. When this side comes out, you tell us that this is not fair. This isn't the guy I fell in love with. Oh YES IT IS! Better or worse.

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Originally Posted by Tree GG

One heck of a thread! Very, very interesting and informative. I just have to comment on the latest death aspects.

Another great GG here and I were discussing change and our conclusion is that coming out, finding out, your male partner is TG (CD-TS; pick anywhere in between) changes both the SO and the CD. "I'm still the same person" argument does not hold water. The SO is stunned, confused, watching for signals and clues as to how the relationship will proceed from here. The CD is typically the kid in the candy store and goes nuts in varying degrees. Obsessing, thoroughly enjoying himself, shopping, learning beauty tricks, on ad nauseum - exploring his femme side. Behaviors have changed. The dynamic of the relationship that was is gone - dead - and a new one has to be built (or not).

Denying that the femme personna "kills" the male personna because the male never really existed is bunk as well. Pat yourselves on the back, you did a great job of creating and selling this guy to everyone. We bought it and many of us love it. Take responsibility for your creation and it's effect on those around you. I've only been able to say the words twice, and never without choking up, but Darlene scares me because she has the power to take something away from me that is very precious and I am powerless to do anything to stop it. Call it control issues, call it unfounded fear, call it lack of trust or faith - whatever you want. Doesn't change the fact that she can take my husband. Even if I participate and support and accept - I can still lose my most intimate friend. Doesn't matter if "he" never existed to himself, he existed to me.

I certainly believe there are persons out there that are adult, reasonable, rational and compassionate. They take their wives by the hand and gently lead them into their TG mind and lives and it is wonderful, loving and peaceful. But too many are not that emotionally mature (myself included). Or conversely, the wife takes the CD by the hand and reassures, loves and they walk the path together. But too often it goes more like:

Look at this! Let's bounce on the furniture in our excitement - oops, kicked you in the gut - but isn't this fun - oops, kicked you in the face - oops, watch out for that flying lamp, sorry.........hey, why are you mad? Why can't you be supportive? You're not giving me what I want. This was here all along, you know it was. Look what I did to you, she would never do that. Woo hoo, look how high I can jump.

Makes my head spin. A business associate once said to me that they work under the philosophy that if you try to shove something down someone's throat, they usually spit it back out at you. But if you serve it up and allow them to partake on their own, they can take ownership of their involvement and support wholeheartedly.

There is absolutely death of relationship and the person you knew - and death of person the SO is. Everything & everyone is changed. The supposedly learned in CD/TG issues publish that a wife's acceptance cycle is very similar to the grieving cycles. Coincidence? I don't think so.

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as cd'r we are looking at this form the wrong view point ..what if it was your wife , lover who wanted to become a guy how would you feel , watching the one you meat become something total different .what would you say what would you do to help her become him, would you buy a suite for her after all it's only cloths , would you go out with him ? ,come on guys can you in the eye of your friends and family take on the appearance of a gay relationship " man /man " deal ..
we are asking our woman to become something they would not consider before to become a lesbian for us and in the eyes of the world in some cases and there family's . the things woman do because they love us .. can we do the same for them ...
sorry tree you are right

i mean no offence to the f to m this is just another view point

This has to be one of the most interesting threads I've ever read in this forum. No wonder the world doesn't understand us. Even in our own community we can't agree about some very basic ideas. Who is tg ? I thought we all were. Why do men cd if they aren't dealing with a gender issue? My thought is gender is a linear scale. Regular guys at one end, and ts at the other. The cders fall in somewhere in between. Even the ts and cd have a sub-scale of various degrees. Sexual orientation is a similar scale. Where those two scales intersect is where we find ourselves. It is interesting that both gender and sexual orientation appear so fluid in our community. My heart aches for our so. They are asked to do so much more than they signed up for. If the roles were reversed, would we, could we support our so on such a journey? I don't know if I could/would. Life is such a maturation process. When I married so long ago, I never planned to take my wife on this journey. I loved her, put my blinders on(as it relates to my gender/sexual orientation) and took the plunge. I'm sorry I didn't think it through before taking that plunge. My wife doesn't deserve to be put through finding out her husband isn't what she thought. Sorry honey, I didn't do it on purpose. I was in denial. For that reason alone, I will not allow myself the freedom to do as I please. Left to my own devices, I would surely run amuck. I fathered children and made some very powerful commitments to others(now found to be under false pretenses). I will honor those commitments. I will however allow tari to see the light of day. I owe that much to myself. But tari will not replace the man my wife married. I am very sorry I took this thread so far off topic. I didn't mean to hijack it. The serious nature of the discussion has struck a nerve with me.

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Originally Posted by Kehleyr

I'm pretty certain that the SOs that are talking about grieving are talking about facing something a bit more profound than "his" wearing a dress on Sunday. Like their partner's gender expression (and possibly stated gender identity or even anatomy) becoming increasingly female. They are grieving over their soul mate possibly transforming from the "man" they thought they married into a woman. They are grieving over the loss of a life they thought they were going to live.

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Yes, exactly. Thank you. My whole world has been turned upside down and I'm having to learn how to maintain a marriage with a different dynamic. Something that I'm trying to learn how to understand and fully accept with an open heart. For my partner and I ~ it's not just cross dressing in our case, but transgender expression and identity.

All very true, MJ. I did not speak of a TS completing a life change, but a CD wanting acceptance. The difference is like athlete's foot, versus loosing the leg. Females have no problems wearing men's clothes... boxer shorts, men's hats, sweat shirts, pants, neckties have all become commonplace and fall in and out of style. I have heard it argued that CD's are CD's because of a lack of style and expression. This is a gross oversimplification, but it is true that most garden variety crossdressers and not up for SRS, and the idea is repulsive to them.

To say that you are going through the steps of grieving because your husband wants to wear makeup is not to my mind, valid, and sounds more like a manipulation, a means of controlling a situation that is not wanted. For the wife, crossdressing may be uncomfortable. For the CD, it is a lifeline.

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Originally Posted by MJ

as cd'r we are looking at this form the wrong view point ..what if it was your wife , lover who wanted to become a guy how would you feel , watching the one you meat become something total different .what would you say what would you do to help her become him, would you buy a suite for her after all it's only cloths , would you go out with him ? ,come on guys can you in the eye of your friends and family take on the appearance of a gay relationship " man /man " deal ..
we are asking our woman to become something they would not consider before to become a lesbian for us and in the eyes of the world in some cases and there family's . the things woman do because they love us .. can we do the same for them ...
sorry tree you are right

i mean no offence to the f to m this is just another view point

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I don't feel like I am qualified to answer many of your questions as they do not pertain to me or my situation in anyway.

However, my wife is also from Minnesota. I told her my feelings about crossdressing early in our relationship. I didn't press her or force her into anything. I dressed only when she wasn't around, but I was always honest with her. Fast forward 8 years later, she is supportive, but is not comfortable to be intimate while I am dressed. This is OK to me. I love her and I can't help that. What I can help is how she feels about this.

Just to FYI, I could not have cared less about my male appearance. I hated how I was from a small age and never dressed up in nice clothes. When I am in male mode, as it were, I am look like your typical slob. I simply have never cared about my appearance, that is, unless I am in "female mode". I try to be respectable, I don't dress as a "****" though I do have kinky undergarments I like to wear on occasion. I like the look of a conservative woman, business attire and the like.

I have already reassured my wife that I would never under go gender reassignment while she and I are together. And we will be together as all my love and energy are pretty much focused on her. She is my everything. My best friend, my lover, my soul and nothing will change that. What ever makes her happy is all that matters to me. What I can say is that if your boyfriend isn't willing (as you are) to compromise in this relationship, then really you do not have a relationship. A relationship isn't a 50%/50%proposition. It is a 100%/100%. Both have to work at it. If your boyfriend is unwilling to see your issues, I would say that this relationship is in for some extremely rocky times ahead.

Like you, my wife still has questions about why I do what I do, and she does worry that she will loose me to a man (which will NEVER happen). But she still needs reassurement from time to time. And I give it. Everytime. I understand her needs, and I try to fullfill them as best as I can. Your worries, even with compromise, will not go away. What you need is reassurement that your boyfriend isn't going down that way.

It seems that he needs to figure him/her self out, and you know what? You should let him.

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Originally Posted by Cara Allen

All very true, MJ. I did not speak of a TS completing a life change, but a CD wanting acceptance. The difference is like athlete's foot, versus loosing the leg. .

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Yup, the old apples vs oranges problem. You cannot use arguments which address TS issues and then apply them to CD situations. This is why those horrible labels are needed or else everyone ends up confused and arguing with each other.

A man who is literally changing into a woman is quite a different situation to a man who simply wishes to express his feminine side through occasional crossdressing or seeking an androgynous look, especially if the man is not bothered about emulating a woman and merely crossdresses. Under these circumstances there is little to differentiate between what the CD wants and what GGs already have the freedom to do.

The thing is, from what I understand is that Leah does not know if she is "just" a cd'er or wants (ok not "wants" but *is*) to be a TS, or perhaps somewhere in the middle even.

Sobe does not want to be with a woman. If she is attracted to males how can she expect to be attracted to a female (rhetorical question)? It all matters, the outside and the inside. What's wrong w/her wanting what she is attracted to which is a male physically (again rhetorical)?

There is no accepting, adjusting or compromising to be done, if Leah decides she needs to transition. Sobes desires are just as important as Leahs. It's not about worrying about what the world would see her as, it's about what Sobe is attracted to, what she desires, whats the core of that.

I think Sobe feels as though she is in limbo and Leah probably feels the same way.

I havent seen Sobe post in a few days. Sobe I am thinking of you. I also think Sobe needs to take back some of herself and I think she is trying to do that now.

Thank you Sobe.

im confused as well. in my opinion youre so is not a cder.to go be treated like a gg. not even, nada. cders dont need that.

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Originally Posted by alarmclockgirl GG

The thing is, from what I understand is that Leah does not know if she is "just" a cd'er or wants (ok not "wants" but *is*) to be a TS, or perhaps somewhere in the middle even.

Sobe does not want to be with a woman. If she is attracted to males how can she expect to be attracted to a female (rhetorical question)? It all matters, the outside and the inside. What's wrong w/her wanting what she is attracted to which is a male physically (again rhetorical)?

There is no accepting, adjusting or compromising to be done, if Leah decides she needs to transition. Sobes desires are just as important as Leahs. It's not about worrying about what the world would see her as, it's about what Sobe is attracted to, what she desires, whats the core of that.

I think Sobe feels as though she is in limbo and Leah probably feels the same way.

I havent seen Sobe post in a few days. Sobe I am thinking of you. I also think Sobe needs to take back some of herself and I think she is trying to do that now.

Thank you Sobe.

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I agree completely. If Leah is transitioning, Sobe needs to get her own life. They are too young to try to work this out any other way.

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Originally Posted by sobe1ove GG

- Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman. It's very 1950's. They wear panty hose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to. They wear clothes that are too young for them and skirts that are too short. When I first heard from my guy about what crossdressers were like, I assumed they were trying to be real women. Boy was I wrong! I don't mean to offend anyone with this one, so I'm sorry if I did.

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When you aren't a real woman, you have to compensate for not being one. If crossdressers were to dress like a "real woman", it wouldn't really be crossdressing anymore as there wouldn't be much crossing done. The differences between "real" men's and women's clothes are so minimal these days.

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Originally Posted by alarmclockgirl GG

Sobe does not want to be with a woman . . . (t)here is no accepting, adjusting or compromising to be done, if Leah decides she needs to transition. Sobes desires are just as important as Leahs. It's not about worrying about what the world would see her as, it's about what Sobe is attracted to, what she desires, whats the core of that.

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Absolutely!!! As I have stated:

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Originally Posted by Sheri 4242

. . . where Sobe was (when she first started posting) and where she now is, vis-a-vis where Leah was and is, may hold the ultimate answers Sobe is seeking!!!

. . . even back then Sobe was aware that (a.) it (was) "all about (Leah) and his crossdressing," and (b.) (Leah's crossdressing) made (Sobe) feel like (Leah's) desires were more important than her in their relationship! Since that post back in April, it seems, too, that (their situation is) . . . questionably hovering on the question of whether Leah is a mtf heterosexual crossdresser or is transsexual . . . ???

At the end of the day . . . Sobe and Leah need to be . . . happy with the choices they each have made!!! If they can work it out, then so much to their credit!!! Do I see that happening??? Not the way things seem to be going!!! As the song says, "breaking up is hard to do." But, there comes a time when you've got fish or cut bait. Sobe's ability to love unconditionally can only take so much draining -- and things won't get any better if Leah refuses to meet her half way. Sorry if this seems blunt, but it is just my opinion of where I see the relationship!!!

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Originally Posted by sobe1ove GG

- Some people say that they don't get where an SO is coming from when they are upset since it's just clothes? Then these same people turn around and say how much they need these clothes in order to express who they are inside. If the clothes weren't a big deal, like you'd like to tell an SO, then you, in theory, wouldn't need them in order to express yourself. Just be a guy then. So I think that theory is wrong and that people believe certain things only when it is convenient for them. Don't say it's only clothes when you feel you need those clothes in order to express who you are on the inside. If they were just clothes, you wouldn't need them.

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Why do you like chocolate ? It's just food...

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Originally Posted by sobe1ove GG

- My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious.

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He doesn't care what those strangers think about him. He just enjoys beeing treated like a woman. By anybody. You should try to treat him the same way. The simple fact that he tries to explain you everything about himself proofs that he cares what you think about him.
(I had an issue at my workplace, somebody blaming me for something I did. I had a valid reason to do that, but I explained nothing to him. Do you know why ? Because I don't care what that person thinks about me.)

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Originally Posted by sobe1ove GG

- What is up with the whole 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude when it comes to MTF and their girlfriends/wives? If this was any other issue, we would certainly be able to voice our opinions and have compromises. But, since it is about your inner turmoil over who you are 'on the inside', we GGs sometimes lose our rights as people and partners. You even see it on the boards.

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I think you are absolutely right. I try to figure out having a partner wearing boxers. Would I like it ? Definitely no. Would I leave her because of that ? No ! But it would be a difference between what I bargained for and what I actually received.
I think a CD must give more in a relationship than other people to compensate that "difference".

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Originally Posted by sobe1ove GG

"Oh, well, this is who we are, so deal with it."

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I would like to quit CD but it's not possible. We are told "this is who you are, so deal with it". No other options.
Can we say something different ?

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Originally Posted by sobe1ove GG

- Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman. It's very 1950's. They wear panty hose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to. They wear clothes that are too young for them and skirts that are too short. When I first heard from my guy about what crossdressers were like, I assumed they were trying to be real women. Boy was I wrong! I don't mean to offend anyone with this one, so I'm sorry if I did.

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I think TGs try to emulate real women, but CDs don't.
If you look at the avatars on this site you will see some members wearing crinolines, others dressed like little girls, others in their fifties dressed like teenagers and so on.
Real women adopt highly sexualized clothing only in exceptional circumstances. CDs have an image of an ideal woman figure, usually highly sexualized, they try to imitate.
If your boyfriend is very 1950's, probably that period is close to his childhood when his CD started. Or else he was impressed by some female figure wearing the fashion of those years (maybe his mother). He will remain hooked forever to that period.
Something similar happens to me, I have my ideal women's fashion imagine and it doesn't change when the fashion changes. I would say that the image is burnt into my brain and nothing can remove it. Nobody, not even psychoterapists. That's the root of the problem.

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Originally Posted by sobe1ove GG

- Speaking of what some CDers wear, I was talking with my guy and he said that he would, in reality, prefer to be on the androgynous side of the female identity. I said, "well, why now" and he said that since it was harder to pull off, he needs to be a whole lot more girly in his appearance. Umm, what? I thought this was about expressing who you truly are! This instead sounds like you are substituting one mask for another and still hiding from yourself. Do other people have this problem?

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I don't have such problems. I don't consider myself a woman. My ideal world would be one in which I would be a man going out in a skirt and nobody wolud wonder. I don't use makeups, wigs, jewels, or other accessories. Only women clothes. I don't go out en femme because I don't want to give up my status as a male.
Would I like to be a woman ? Definitely yes ! But only if it would be possible to be 100% woman. I don't want to fake my walk, my voice, my talking. I don't want to keep my hands hidden all the time (my hands are realy rough even by men's standards). When it's about myself, I'm a perfectionist and anything less than 100% would make me deeply dissatisfied. Beeing a woman is not an option for me. I'm comfortable with that.

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Originally Posted by sobe1ove GG

- I've read people posting about how they knew they had gender issues when they: liked pink, preferred to avoid sports, liked cooking instead of sports cars, and etcetera. Umm... what decade are you living in? And honestly, so you liking things that go a bit against the norm all of a sudden makes you a girl on the inside? What message is that for young men? So if you see that your son would rather play with a Barbie, are you going to sit him down and tell him he's transgendered? He, and you, can like that stuff while still being a man. I think that hinders the progress of men everywhere to think that they can't like those things and still be manly. Preferring cooking over sports is NO indication of gender identity issues in my humble opinion.

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That's the old fashioned way to see the woman. Meanwhile things changed. But not too much. I would say that even in our days most of the chores at home are done by women.
To make it simple, I think both you and the others who think differently can survive these differences in your opinions. Not everybody sees everything in the same way. So what ?
BTW, pink is realy beautiful and sexy. Women should wear it more often. (My secret: about 5% of my underwear collection is not pink.)

Your message is from somebody who has a brain and know how to use it. The questions were very interesting. It was a real pleasure to try to anwer them. Thank you.

p.s. I appologize for the possible language mistakes. The English is not my primary language but I hope you still can understand what I meant.

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Originally Posted by Cara Allen

I agree completely. If Leah is transitioning, Sobe needs to get her own life. They are too young to try to work this out any other way.

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Not necessarily.

If Leah is transitioning, Sobe needs to think about what she will do. She has many options and hopefully she will contemplate them all, including the ones that scare her the most.

We never know what we are capable of. We can be surprised by the power of love.

Sobe, if it turns out you can't live with Leah as she grows and changes, then I truly hope you never stop loving her for the person she was/is and you two remain friends.

A girl really needs friends in a life like this.

:hugs:

I know some of you seemed to be interested in what was going on between Leah B and me. I thought I'd come on and give an update of the status of our relationship.

For a few days we went back and forth about whether or not we should be together. And then one particularly angsty and illuminating day, I decided that we should break up. It seemed to make the most sense, and he agreed, but we both didn't feel right about it.

A few days after that, we just cried and cried. Together and apart. We kept being, 'this feels wrong!' In the meantime, we are just two short weeks away from us moving and we had no place lined up yet.

I stuck to my guns about being broken up because there were certain things that he wasn't doing for me in the relationship. I wasn't happy about the decision, but I felt it needed to be done. Since I can't afford a place of my own and I don't know anyone here anymore, I knew that I'd have to move out of state (from Minnesota to *shudder* Montana) to live with my mom if we broke up.

Yesterday we talked a lot and he said he would do what I wanted, but we didn't feel comfortable just getting back together.

Long story short, I'm still moving away, but instead of breaking up, it's a trial separation. I didn't plan on staying in Montana anyway, so that doesn't cause problems there. I will live there and he'll stay here, and we'll keep in touch and stuff. In a few months, we'll see where things are at.

The act of breaking up for real was heart breaking for both of us and we realized that we HAVE to be together. The trial separation is for both of us to work out our personal stuff and to see what we need.

I'm definitely happy with this decision.

So, now you know.

:)

Ahhh well Sobe, I know that wasnt easy. It sounds like the responsible thing to do. To just take a step back and see what happens.

You have to believe that whatever is meant to be will be. It's better than trying to force something, that would ruin any chances yall had together.

It still sucks, I know.

:hugs:

Ive been thinking about you.

well sobe i wish you and Leah b all the best, you may both need this break to come up for some air ... and i hope you both make the right decision. all the best