This is why I find DADT so frustrating...

...and as a follow-up to my recent thread on the same topic, where I was looking for input on what I saw as a possible link between that, and the types of wives who are already controlling by nature.

Yesterday, I had the opportunity to spend the entire day as "Leslie". My original plan had actually been to attend the "Fall into Fashion with Nygard" fashion event hosted by that chain along with a well-known local stylist that I had previously mentioned in another post, but that was cancelled at the last minute due to a lack of interest (I had actually been the only one to respond and buy a ticket!). But for me to feel fully comfortable being en femme and immersed in a sea of GG's (or so I thought!), I had also arranged for my make up artist Kelly to do a professional makeover on me so that I would look my best and increase my chances of "passing".

With the event now having been cancelled, I had all this extra free time at my disposal, and in all fairness, didn't want to cancel out on Kelly and have my problem become her problem in terms of a lost revenue-generating opportunity for her. So, I decided to keep my appointment all the same, and just settle for looking awesome ;) for an extended day of shopping, going to restaurants etc., and generally being out in public.

Well, to get to my point - I was a bit late for my appointment, and Kelly was already out on her front porch getting some fresh air while waiting for me. As she saw me approach her walkway, she shouted out a loud and friendly "Hi Leslie!" and as usual, gave me a great big hug. And all of this was out in the open, with no care as to what neighbours might be out and about, and more importantly - no worries about what they might think. We then went inside, I settled into her upstairs studio, we discussed what kind of look I was seeking that day, and and she got down to work.

We spent the next 1 1/4 hours chatting as usual about this, that, and the other just like a couple of girlfriends, and during that time, I was luxuriating in all that pampering that she bestows on me during these make up sessions. When it was over, we had our usual hug-filled good-byes, I paid her for her services (she always gives me a special deal as I am now one of her regular repeat customers), and I walked away happy and full of confidence as she always does such a great make up job on me.

Long story short, I spent the rest of the day shopping at both a Jones New York fashion outlet as well as Toronto's Yorkdale Mall, a mega-mall which is undergoing major renovations to become even more of a "go-to" place for fashionistas.

The Jones New York visit was a follow up to a shopping trip my wife and I had taken there a few weeks ago to buy her a number of things to replenish her wardrobe. I was in drab, and of course, I had to play the part of the stereotypically bored and pained better half while she was scouring the racks - all the while salivating inside at some of the fashions I spotted there that I knew would look good on my femme alter ego. So, a follow up visit by "Leslie" to shop her herself was definitely in the cards, and yesterday was my opportunity.

As for the Yorkdale renovations, they are also driven by the fact that some of the major U.S. retailers who aren't already active in Canada are now starting to head North for new business opportunities as the U.S. economy continues to be sluggish. Rumour even has it that Nordstrom's is going to establish itself here in the near future, and I can't wait to explore their famous clearance shoe racks that you U.S. gals keep raving about. But I digress...

Anyway, I spent the day trying on women's clothes and shoes, picked up a new dress and top, bought some make up, and capped off the evening with a meal in a nice restaurant. All day long, I was fussed over by attentive SA's and cashiers, encountered tons of smiles, was called "Ma'am" or "the lady" more times than I can count, and even got a few compliments on both my choices and what I was wearing. To say that I was in Heaven would be an understatement.

But then reality hit...

My wife knew that I was going out as "Leslie" (I no longer make any bones about that, her disapproval notwithstanding) and she made it very clear that she was unhappy about it. She also tried to pick a fight with me on numerous occasions the preceding evening with lots of guilt and manipulation thrown in for good measure to try to put me in a bad mood and make sure that I wouldn't enjoy my day out, but I just let it roll off my back like water off a duck's @ss.

And for the record, it's not that I don't understand her ambivalence about all this, and I am already doing the best I can to address my needs in this area while still respecting hers - it's the controlling an manipulative tactics that she uses to try to keep me on a short leash as opposed to being more amenable to compromise that really get my back up.

And so it was last night. I came home to a dark house, she was already in bed, and this morning, only a few short, curt words were exchanged before she went off to work. I can't wait to get my usual earful when she gets home tonight...

So my point is - I appear to live in two different worlds. "Leslie" is a "persona non grata" at home, my wife and I have a DADT relationship which has its ups and downs (more downs than ups lately), and there seems to be a continuing, underlying tension in our household over this, no matter how much I bend over backwards to accommodate her needs just to keep things in balance.

The other world is the one that "Leslie" inhabits, where she is universally liked and appreciated, treated with dignity and respect, and where people are intrigued by her and enjoy her company, rather than being put off by her.

It's truly a schizophrenic situation, and I can't help but wonder if there will ever come a point where the twain shall meet?

Then again, maybe the "twain" has already left the station...:sad:

Hi Leslie
Just remember it's a woman thing that you wife is expierencing. Sucks when the record keeps repeating itself but what the heck,its part of the deal right now. Once I find the cure for them I'll let you in on it:heehee:

Thera

P.S. or maybe she's afraid you'll eventually want a mangina and run off with another guy:heehee:

Leslie, it looks to me like the handwriting is on the wall, the floor, and all over the ceiling too. She is NOT going to give up punishing you for being so "bad". It's one thing for her not to approve, and want nothing to do with it, but it's quite another for her to continue to treat you as a child about it.

Is it possible that your wife has "let herself go"? As in, YOU are more attractive when dressed than she is? Might be a contributing factor? Or maybe she never "dresses nicely" anymore? I personally don't buy that NO woman could ever be jealous of a male, husband or not, dressing as a woman especially if she is not happy with HERSELF.

Sounds to me, like she brings you a lot more pain than joy? If everything else is fine, you may just have to continue to live with it and/or ask yourself the question Ann Landers or Dear Abby always asked folks with problems. "Are you better off with them or without them"?

Only you can decide that.

Wow, Leslie. That sounds rough. Obviously, I don't know much about you and your wife, but perhaps the two of you need to sit down and have a talk, screaming and all, if need be. My advice is to tell her that you get the feeling that the DADT is not working for her. Ask her what troubles her the most: is it that you might be recognized and then she'll be embarrassed when it come back to her? That harm might come to you while you're out as Leslie? That she feels Leslie is taking away time she can spend with the male you? Is she worried you are beginning to like being Leslie more than being the man she married? Once you know the root of the problem, maybe you can work together on a solution.

I found that my wife and I really turned a corner once she realized that she was more important to me than my femme side was. One night, I had made plans to go out en femme with TG friends and was really looking forward to it. She had just had a rough day, was feeling sick and was not looking forward to getting the kids to bed by herself. I was supposed to leave after dinner, but I asked her if she wanted me to bail on my plans to go out. She said "No, I know how important it is to you." It was then that I decided I would help her get the kids to bed and go out later (for a much shorter time out) once everyone was asleep. The fact that I did this on my own, rather than being "guilted" into it, meant a lot to her.

I wish both of you all the best!

Hi Leslie,

It may not be of much comfort you know that there are many who are in a situation very similar to yours. That also means that many understand your feelings of frustration, etc.

I was once in a very similar situation. My wife's "acceptance" varied over the years. We, too, had a sort of DADT for awhile. She knew I went out en femme and did not like it. Eventually, another situation arose which led to my wife filing for a divorce. My CDing was only a part of the total picture. As part of telling our daughters and husbands about the pending divorce, my wife told them about my CDing. To her dismay, they were much more concerned about the divorce than my being a CD.

I now live alone and live en femme unless I am going to be with my family or friends who only know me as a man. I am happy though poorer (LOL).

Unfortunatey, there is little chance of your wife changing how she feels about your CDIng. This leaves you in an unpleasant state. None of the choices available to you are very pleasant. At some time you will be forced to choose the "lesser of evils".

I wish you best!

This seems like a situation where compromise is needed. She is not wild about your “Leslie persona” and crossdressing more generally; and you are not wild about giving up or suppressing a part of yourself that you consider basic and perhaps vital to your happiness. That calls for a compromise where each person makes some concessions, and each person gets enough of what they want to be okay with it.

Why does she dislike your crossdressing? Is it a Deuteronomy 22:5 situation? Does she think that she would lose friends if they knew about Leslie? Do you have kids that she thinks would be teased or even bullied at school if word got out that a parent was a crossdresser? Or what is her fear? On the other side of the situation, what do you dislike about her attitudes or behavior? Is it a feeling that you’re being controlled as opposed to being treated as an equal partner? Is it a feeling that you would not be true to yourself if you tried to get rid of Leslie? Would you be unhappy, cross, and hard to get along with without at least occasional feminine expression? Or what is your apprehension?

Once you know what each person fears and what each person wants, you are in a better position to forge a successful compromise. Give a little and get a little. (If only we could teach people in the US Congress to do that … I’d let them all crossdress at my house!)

Leslie, you have so much more to deal with than a simple DADT relationship. You are more in a DADTDDIDI. DADT and Dont Do It Damn It. My wife was in a total DADT phase for awhile, but she knew why I had to dress, and would not deny me that. It was lonely not to have her to talk to during this time, but I did dress without any guilt trips like those you are subjected. These constant harangues can strain even the most solid relationships. It is not like you are ignoring her, and even go shopping with her. It is just her nature to opt for that kind of negative input to your going on. I am sure that psychologically there is a very deep explanation, but it is not a healthy activity.

I just hope you can remain positive and not let these rants upset you and turn you negative. Just tell her you love her, and then lie and say you understand, even if you dont, but you are sorry your life has been made this way. Yes, words are easy to say here, but I really hope you are strong.

Hugs, Barbara

Mayb e she is jealous of some of the relationships you have with other women regardless if they are platonic and professional. Or maybe it is that she fears the confidence you display as Leslie. That may be an area of discussion for you and your wife.
I think it’s great that you can be out and receive such acceptance. What I wouldn’t give…

Cheers

Maybe she would like to be more involved and sees Leslie as a threat to your relationship!?

I have to work with the Government all day and the barrage of acronyms drives me in sane.
So I have to ask WTF is DADT?
Thanks
Bobbi

Leslie

From your post it appears you have already made the decision and are worried about the possible retribution from your wife. I also don't think there is any "ambivalence" in your wife's position.

I can't come out and say run, but then at what point will the relationship between Leslie and your wife force the issue. It is a festering relationship and don't let it go for so long that the cure is unbearable.

Miki

DADT = Don't Ask Don't Tell. It comes from the legislation Clinton signed as a "compromise" to not purge gays from the military. It didn't work in practice, because there was always someone willing to Tell.

Miki

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

My wife knew that I was going out as "Leslie" (I no longer make any bones about that, her disapproval notwithstanding) and she made it very clear that she was unhappy about it. She also tried to pick a number of fights the preceding evening with lots of guilt and manipulation thrown in for good measure to try to put me in a bad mood and make sure that I wouldn't enjoy my day out, but I just let it roll off my back like water of a duck's @ss.

And for the record, it's not that I don't understand her ambivalence about all this, and I am already doing the best I can to address my needs in this area while still respecting hers - it's the controlling an manipulative tactics that she uses to try to keep me on a short leash as opposed to being more amenable to compromise that really get my back up.

And so it was last night. I came home to a dark house, she was already in bed, and this morning, only a few short, curt words were exchanged before she went off to work. I can't wait to get my usual earful when she gets home tonight...

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You and your wife will simply need to call a truce on this, and agree to disagree. You get to go out and enjoy yourself as Leslie on occasion while gladly acknowledging that your life together will be conducted as husband and wife the rest of the time, and you will not judge or resent your wife's non-participation, in return for a promise that she will make a concerted effort to not judge you or resent you when you are expressing Leslie.

Surely your wife will be able to understand, once you point it out to her, that the fights prior to a day of going out and the silent treatment following it, has an effect on your peace of mind. And also that you feel in a terrible bind when you take steps to express yourself occasionally (without involving your wife out of respect for her feelings), knowing that it causes your wife such distress. You might ask her if she can think of a solution that will resolve this dilemma, while recognizing that you cannot stop being who you are.

That said, and following JamieG's post, THE most significant breakthrough for my SO and I was when she told me (after I had a meltdown one evening feeling that it didn't matter to her if I was in her life or not), that she did love me and she cared a great deal for my feelings. She further said that even though she could not stop being who she is, she would gladly not dress or switch back to male mode anytime that I felt vulnerable in my own life and needed him in guy mode. No questions asked. Just knowing this dispelled a lot of misconceptions I had about her gender expression and I've got to say that I have not felt the need to ever ask her to not be herself when she was dressed.

Thanks Miki,
I guess I should have guess that but didnt put it in context with a wife.

[SIZE="4"]DADT is pretty much like building a wall between you and your spouse. You can talk and be friends, but there's always this "other woman" that she naturally doesn't care for. Can you blame her?

The only way this is going to work is for your wife to embrace the "other woman" and make her a friend too. Otherwise it's just a life of tension and other difficulties. When a woman, or a man for that matter, doesn't like something that is happening around them, it's pretty much impossible not to show disdain in a multitude of subtle and not-so-subtle ways.[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by ReineD

That said, and following JamieG's post, THE most significant breakthrough for my SO and I was when she told me (after I had a meltdown one evening feeling that it didn't matter to her if I was in her life or not), that she did love me and she cared a great deal for my feelings. She further said that even though she could not stop being who she is, she would gladly not dress or switch back to male mode anytime that I felt vulnerable in my own life and needed him in guy mode. No questions asked. Just knowing this dispelled a lot of misconceptions I had about her gender expression and I've got to say that I have not felt the need to ever ask her to not be herself when she was dressed.

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It seems to me that unless you feel the same way about your wife, Leslie, your marriage is doomed. The ball is in your court. You are going to have to initiate any negotiation. And as is always the case in any such discussion, both sides are going to have to be willing to compromise.

My experience of such negotiation is that it will take a considerable amount of time and talk to achieve the first break-through. You will go round and round and round and reach an apparent stalemate on more than one occasion. Take a breather, to think about what each of you has said and reflect on what this means for the negotiation. Then resume your discussion. This is very likely to happen several times and both of you will have to be prepared to deal with feelings of extreme frustration.

But rest assured, if both of you are committed to the process, the break-through will eventually come. and the rest of the process will proceed fairly quickly thereafter.

The alternative is that the two of you split up. DADT is not going to be an option in your case.

She's not succeeding with this manipulative approach and it's creating tensions. You know your wife better than anyone...so maybe you can find a way to discuss the way she seems to respond when she knows you're out and about. And in the process discuss ways that can be satifactory for both of you. Best of luck.

Leslie

My sympathy and understanding are with you.

I replied to your previous thread drawing on my experiences with my wife. I still wonder whether you could take a different approach - one that I have to take to keep my marriage and fulfil my needs. It draws upon the different types of situations that could collectively be described as DADT.

In my case I occasionally get an opportunity when travelling to dress but I ensure that my wife is not aware and therefore confronted by my actions. Yes, I would much rather us have an accepting open relationship but the only option in my case is to keep this part of me totally separate (I could have used the term 'divorced') from our marriage. To do otherwise would be highly confronting as it is in your case and ultimately result in losing my wife.

This strategy while working does admittedly have several negatives such as clothes being crinkled, not being able to share on all levels and a general disappointment on what we are collectively missing out on.

Your wife seems very similar to mine in her views on CDing. Discussion on compromise with some accommodation of dressing would not be productive with my wife but being open about you going out is confrontational and is likely to lead to an inevitable outcome.

Michelle

Leslie, at your current pace, you and your wife are heading for a divorce. You are bound and determined to do something that clearly bothers your wife. You are going to do it and she is going to make you pay for it. No good can come of this if it continues.

You keep saying your wife is "controlling" but she doesn't seem to be controling your dressing (and going out dressed), you are still doing it. She is just showing her dissaproval by her attitude towards you.

If you want to stay married to your wife and want to have a happy, satisfying marriage, you both need to compromise. You need to sit down and talk about why you feel the need to go out (without her) as a female and why it bothers her so much.

From what I get from reading your posts, it's not just the dressing, it's the going out and having fun without her just like it might be if you spent all your free time with your male buddies fishing or playing poker.

The bottom line is, it's up to you to fix this with your wife or split up and set each other free. Strangers on a web forum agreeing with you that your wife is "controlling" will not help your situation.

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Originally Posted by Lynn Marie

The only way this is going to work is for your wife to embrace the "other woman" and make her a friend too. Otherwise it's just a life of tension and other difficulties.

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I couldn't disagree more.

Our SO's don't have any obligation whatsoever to embrace the TG side in their SO. For many of them, this whole thing sucks beyond belief. The solution is not forced participation and ramming it down their throats.

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Originally Posted by ColleenA

DADT generally refers to zero acceptance of the dressing done by one's spouse - "keep it hidden," "don't let me see anything to do with it" - which sounds like your position. Understand, though, there are various levels beyond DADT.

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It'd help if DADT was defined correctly. Not that I'm splitting hairs here but zero acceptance is not the baseline of DADT. Otherwise, we'd be talking about just that, zero acceptance.

I see DADT as tolerance to a certain degree without participation. Usually there is no visual interaction (pictures, hanging out, etc) and little discussion.

Yes, "keep it hidden" & "don't let me see anything do do with it" are important elements in DADT. Often this means the feminine trappings are kept hidden away. Leave something lying around by accident and there might be hell to pay. No, she isn't likely to want to see pictures from outings and isn't going to be thrilled to hear about the new heels you just bought.

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Originally Posted by linda allen

Leslie, at your current pace, you and your wife are heading for a divorce.

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Disagree here too.

As is often the case, Reine's advise is amazing....

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Originally Posted by TxKimberly

I wouldn't have a problem with my wife not wanting anything to do with it, in fact that IS pretty much where my wife and I are at. The "problem" in the OP, is that the wife wasn't happy with just not being a part of it, but instead felt compelled to make Leslie feel like shit about it the night before - again something that I also see with my wife from time to time.

Wanting nothing to do with it is perhaps understandable and livable, but being mean and hurtful about Leslie going out is a bit more than that isn't it?

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...and Kimberly brings the issue down to it's most basic element.

I can totally relate to all of this because I too am in somewhat of a DADT relationship. And what happened to Leslie has happened to me in the past as well. The difference is that I don't believe my wife did it on purpose. She knows my outings are important for my sanity and generally gives me the space I need, even running interference as needed to help me get in or out of the house as well as those oft-needed "fibs" to friends and family when I'm out & about.

There have been a couple occasions where she has made me feel like crap as I embark on an outing but usually the reason is something else that is going on. The last time this happened, I explained to her how such comments make me feel and ever since she is very careful to avoid issues as I'm heading out.

Leslie, our DADT is a bit different than yours but I think you might see in my example Reine's advice put into practice. I hope it helps in some way.

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Originally Posted by TxKimberly

Doormat, as Paula said, your viewpoint IS wanted here, whether it is flattering to us or not, hurtful to us or not, it is an honest opinion from a woman who loves one of us.

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I totally agree with Kimberly. The reality of your posts Doormat (forgive me, I hate to call anyone Doormat) hits home and is very important. I hope you keep on participating. I for one will never try to sway you by saying being married to a TG individual is all hunky dory (because in many cases it most certainly isn't) but I will encourage you to open a discussion with someone like Reine who I'm sure has fought through many of the issues you describe.

First of all, ladies - thank you for all your valuable inputs, as well as the time you have taken to share your insights.

I especially appreciate those responses into which some of you have obviously put considerable thought, as well as the support that most of you have shown towards my dilemma (plight?). And DoorMat, your input was particularly valuable coming as it does from the other side of the fence, so to speak - even if it was a bit of a cold shower. But that's to be expected, as this is a very complex issue with no absolute black or white or right or wrong, and we are all struggling to one degree or another as to what to make of it all.

There is much information here to process, but the overall consensus seems to be that in my case, things have simply gone too far and positions become so entrenched that there is no easy way out. My wife and I have discussed our respective positions ad infinitum (ad nauseum?), and it now seems to come down to a case of the irresistible force meeting the immovable object, and likely no good can come out of this.

Many of you have expanded on the DADT theme and made the very valid point that there are also various shades of DADT within this umbrella term. There is the benign (and basic) form, which essentially assumes the position that "you do your thing, and I'll do mine - I just don't want to hear about it." I suspect that in real life - that rarely exists in such a pure form as we are all human beings, and at some point, emotions get in the way despite our best efforts to remain logical about all this. But that's probably still O.K., because the partners in this scenario can usually bounce back from a blow-up and resume "normal" relations.

Mine seems to be the more extreme case because - as some have pointed out - it goes beyond DADT and degenerates into pure control mode on the part of the wife or SO. This is why I made the link in my original post between my assessment that DADT is perhaps sometimes symptomatic of much deeper issues that such a wife or SO might have, and which then turn her into a "control freak" - not only in this instance, but in other ways in which she approaches her life and her marriage. I would even venture to say that it enters into the realm of bullying in some cases.

I am not trained specialist in this area, but there have been events in my wife's past that occurred before we met that lead me believe that this may well be the case with her, and hence the overreaction to my crossdressing. But it's one thing to recognize that and be sympathetic to it - it is a far different thing to constantly be on the receiving end of her anxieties and in effect often becoming a lightning rod for them.

Yes, some of you may have taken me to task for finally adopting a hard line here, and simply doing my "Leslie" thing without feeling any guilt or remorse anymore - albeit still in such a way that it is not directly in my wife's face out of a fundamental respect for her and her position on this matter. But I also have to be cognizant of my own mental health here - selfish as that may sound to some - and I don't want to risk falling into a depression because I am forced to repress something that is so fundamental to my very being - and for no better reason than "I don't like it, and I don't want any part of it...".

Granted, that's maybe a bit of a simplistic way of putting it, but that is what it boils down to. And let's keep our crossdressing in perspective here. It is not as destructive an activity as alcoholism, drug abuse, or gambling, we are typically not child molesters or pornographers, and by most accounts are not only faithful to our wives and SO's - we are typically more so than the average male who - given half a chance - is very susceptible to straying from the straight and narrow.

It is also important to remember here that we did not choose to be transgendered and be driven to crossdress - transgenderism chose us. At the end of the day, it is all about clothes and expressing a repressed gender identity, and not about cheating on our partners with another, flesh-and-blood woman.

That said, yes, my wife has on occasion compared "Leslie" to being the "other woman" in our relationship and accused me of "emotionally cheating" with her. Personally, I think that's a bit of a stretch, but that's also my fundamentally male brain speaking here...

Bottom line - each of us here is doing the best we can to cope with our respective situations, and are fully aware of the impact that it has on our loved ones. Sure, we have made mistakes and will continue to do so. I just wish that some our wives and SO's could cut us some slack as we work through this rather than assume an overtly hostile reaction to it.

There's no need to pile on the guilt - we already have it in spades, and most of us are willing to do whatever we can to compensate for our crossdressing needs in other aspects of our marriages so that our wives will realize that we are still fundamentally good and caring people, and that they didn't make a huge mistake in getting involved with us in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

There is much information here to process, but the overall consensus seems to be that in my case, things have simply gone too far and positions become so entrenched that there is no easy way out. My wife and I have discussed our respective positions ad infinitum (ad nauseum?), and it now seems to come down to a case of the irresistible force meeting the immovable object, and likely no good can come out of this.

.

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You need a game breaker, Leslie, if this is the case. A mediator, be it mutual friend or total stranger (therapist or divorce lawyer, the two of you must decide) who can break the stalemate and either get the marriage back on track or dissolve it as amicably as possible.

Are both of you that committed to your relationship to the extent that each of you is willing to compromise?
Or are both of you so pig-headed that neither is prepared to give a little, and tragedy is inevitable?

Your posts do not tell us, so far.

Want do you really want so badly that you are willing to live the rest of your life with the consequences of your next decision?

I found this thread to be particularly interesting. Leslie, you told me quite some time back about your DADT situation, and suggested that our situations were very much the same. But that really isn't the case, as you have taken Leslie further than I've taken Marla. I don't get out much as Marla; to date, I have only taken Marla out when my wife is out of town.

Ours has been a very real DADT situation, in that she never brings it up, and doesn't chastise me about it. On the other hand, I don't dress around her, I have everything put away before she comes home, and I don't press the issue. She has somewhat educated herself on TG issues, and has shown quite a bit of understanding when she discusses such issues with me. It's just that my own situation doesn't much come up in the conversation.

When you got home after she'd already gone to bed, you came into your house with your wife already there, and you were fully en femme. That's something I've never done. I'm not passing judgement on it. I'm just saying that that's something I've never done. And I think that pushes the envelope a bit, at least to a place I've never pushed it. Thus far, I've been able to play out my moments as Marla without a specific need to go out a whole lot. I find it exhilarating, and a lot of fun to go out, but it hasn't become a specific need for me. I'm sure it's different for everyone.

I understand completely why any woman might have a problem with this. Doormat (change your name, please. I refuse to wipe my feet on you) says it perfectly when she states that once she sees her man en femme, it is impossible for her to scrub that image from her mind, and that she'll forever see him differently in her own eyes. I get that. I wouldn't want my wife behaving in an equal and opposite way, hypocritical as that may sound.

I don't agree that one set outcome to all of this is inevitable. The future is always fluid, and is always subject to our manipulations. If both sides get entrenched, though, then it will be a long, tough engagement. The secret to any relationship is always compromise.

Leslie, I wish you the best. I have no advice to give you. My own situation is not one that many of us could live with. I have little (but not "no") desire to push that envelope with her. I am mostly content with things the way they are. However, I did make an aquaintance at the TG New Mexico meeting last week who has invited me to lunch tomorrow. I accepted, and I will go as Marla. That will mark the first time that I've ventured out in any real way when my wife is not out of town.

Sigh. Ours is a very strange road to travel. Welcome Mat (hey, beats "Doormat"), please try to understand that this is something we are strongly compelled to do, and that we didn't necessarily choose this path. Our aim is not to hurt anyone with this behavior, but so often, our loved ones do get hurt. It is not intentional, and when we do hurt those we love, it hurts us, too.

Hey, I see DADT, i see the military view. Yes, the DoD changed that. Much to the better, I think, and I work there.
I see here that you all use DADT as casual term for the general CD/TG chat here.
Not a great idea, and you should respect the DADT folks in the military. DADT is an American term, focused on one regulation, works out very well.
You should not use DADT with your personal lives.

I think Marla and I are in similar situations. I do not want my wife's participation in my cross dressing, if it is going to (a) make her feel like crap, and, (2) destroy why I believe I like wearing women's clothing. I have to respect my wife's unstated desires to totally avoid the issue. Yes, we did have that period of discussion of the basics; Are you gay? Do you want to be a woman? When I was younger I did venture out several Halloween's and present as a woman. I too have ventured out for an evening stroll when my wife has been across country. I actually found it refreshing, but, I also grew tired of it; boring to walk around alone. On occasion my wife has found a feminine garment (white nylon panty and a red bra) and carefully put it where a visitor would not see it. She also found my breasts forms in the kitchen sink; water balloons (less expensive since I do not venture out much). She did not raise hell about it. I can get my dose of Stephanie in the home and the backyard. I am content because cross dressing is a stress reliever for me. I love to cook and bake, en femme or not. I do the household chores en femme or not, but, I do prefer the June Cleaver look.

A relationship that is marked by fighting over the issue is not a 'Don't Ask, Don't tell' relationship. Amy is probably correct in stating DADT is more appropriate for the military. In the forum DADT is more akin to 'I know you do it! Don't do it around me!'

There are other issues here. It seems there is a failure to negotiate boundaries that are acceptable to both parties. That does not confer there ever will be mutually acceptable boundaries. If one wants to venture out and have interaction with society, then there are expanded issues of 'DADT' going on. How does a wife block images out of her mind, if she has seen her groom in a dress? Yes, it will forever change her image of him, negatively or positively. How does she feel when she hears the door slam and the car drive away when she knows he is en femme? I know others have stated their spouses have said to go out of town, get a hotel room, dress, undress, and come home.

What is being described here is NOT a DADT relationship.

Leslie

I believe at this point you need to back off on the CDing a little. Like some have said, you have quite the freedom of being leslie and out and about and coming home after the wife gets home. My wife would not even tolerate that let alone knowing that Im hanging around with other GG's. Maybe your wife has finally reached her limit. Maybe she has tried to deal with it and has tolerated it for you and you have taken that privledge and pushed beyond her limits therefore she's reacting in the only way she knows how. "ATTITUDE". My advise is to focus on her at this point and reassure her that she's the one that's important to and not the other stuff in your life.

Thera

Moderator Note: The thread was being diverted by discussion of a particular GG's perspective of DADT. There were some interesting thoughts in that diversion, however, so I split them into their own thread: "This is why I find DADT so frustrating...(a GG perspective)"

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...erspecitive%29

Leslie ... honestly I don't know what to say anymore. It's difficult without also hearing your wife's perspective as well. Would she be able to agree to not pick a fight or give you the silent treatment when you do go out, and not make you feel as if she is guilt-tripping you, in return for your agreement that you should not seek her participation with the CDing?

I feel really bad for you both and I hope that somehow there'll be a breakthrough, and you can meet somewhere in the middle. Please try to keep the lines of communication open.

:hugs:

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

.........Anyway, I spent the day trying on women's clothes and shoes, picked up a new dress and top, bought some make up, and capped off the evening with a meal in a nice restaurant. All day long, I was fussed over by attentive SA's and cashiers, encountered tons of smiles, was called "Ma'am" or "the lady" more times than I can count, and even got a few compliments on both my choices and what I was wearing. To say that I was in Heaven would be an understatement.

But then reality hit...

My wife knew that I was going out as "Leslie" (I no longer make any bones about that, her disapproval notwithstanding) and she made it very clear that she was unhappy about it. She also tried to pick a fight with me on numerous occasions the preceding evening with lots of guilt and manipulation thrown in for good measure to try to put me in a bad mood and make sure that I wouldn't enjoy my day out, but I just let it roll off my back like water off a duck's @ss.

And for the record, it's not that I don't understand her ambivalence about all this, and I am already doing the best I can to address my needs in this area while still respecting hers - it's the controlling an manipulative tactics that she uses to try to keep me on a short leash as opposed to being more amenable to compromise that really get my back up.

And so it was last night. I came home to a dark house, she was already in bed, and this morning, only a few short, curt words were exchanged before she went off to work. I can't wait to get my usual earful when she gets home tonight...

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I'm sorry Leslie, I can't really take your side on this. You knew your "day as Leslie out on the town" would upset your wife but you pretty much said "the hell with you" and did it anyway. That's not really showing respect for someone you love. By doing this, you are destroying her love for you (assuming there is love) and driving her away. How would you feel if while you are out on the town as Leslie, she went out on the town cruising bars and meeting men?

A good marriage (the only kind worth having) includes both parties trying to please each other. Trying as hard as possible. If you aren't willing and able to do this, it's time for the marriage to end. You only get one chance at life and it's a shame to live it in an unhappy relationship.

You used the term "transgendered" in one of your posts. I'm sure your wife thought she was marrying a "male". If you now feel "transgendered", not "male", it's bound to be upsetting to your wife. Some of our wives love us enough to accept the fact that we may no longer feel fully male and will accept our changed ways. Others may not be able to accept anything less than a 100% macho male for a husband.

In the end, it's you and your wife who must either work it out or set each other free. Give it some long hard thought, this is a serious decision that will affect the rest of your life.

I'm looking forward to an update on the situation from Leslie.
How are things going, my friend?

Again, ladies, my sincere thanks for all the additional input, and it has given me much food for thought, even though some of you have chastised me for appearing to have taken a hard line with my wife and just gone ahead with my "Leslie" outing last week despite her disapproval.

But this is not typical of me, and was born out of frustration at simply hitting a brick wall in trying to get her to acknowledge my needs, even if she doesn't quite understand them. But by way of an analogy, I also don't need to understand the intricacies of nuclear fusion to still appreciate the fact that this is what makes the sun shine and allows life on Earth to exist...

And please remember - the whole thrust of my original thread was that my situation appeared to go beyond simply trying to live within the confines of a DADT relationship - it was the sense that my wife's controlling nature was starting to make this unbearable for me as she seemed intent on sabotaging every bit of solace and pleasure that I found in my crossdressing activities - and just because they didn't sit well with her.

Most of you ladies who took me to task for that seem to have achieved a true DADT relationship with your wives and SO's where the partners have tacitly accepted the essence of the Star Trek Prime Directive -

"As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no Star Fleet personnel may interfere with the healthy development of alien life and culture. Such interference includes the introduction of superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. Star Fleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive, even to save their lives and/or their ship unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of said culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral obligation."

But that was not my situation, and as the old Native American adage puts it: "Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his moccasins"...or in our case, pumps ;).

That said - and long story short - after a couple of days of the air being so thick that one could cut it with a dull butter knife, a thaw gradually set in and we resumed communications. No mention was made of "Leslie's" outing, but we did ultimately have a good heart-to-heart where a number of frustrations on both our parts were brought to the surface (most non-crossdressing-related), and which had become festering wounds. We spoke calmly and rationally, having both become totally exhausted by the recent head-butting, and much progress was made. We are both in a good place for the moment (I hope it lasts!), and the intimacy between us that had suffered along the way is slowly coming back.

But what I learned to my surprise during our discussions was that for my wife, the main issue the last time was not her objection to me going out as "Leslie" per se - it was more her on-going fear that something bad might happen to me, especially if it was the result of being unexpectedly (and inadvertently) "outed". This puts a whole new spin on my perception of her objection to my crossdressing, and gives us something new to work with.

I was also heartened to discover yet again how deeply she cares for me despite the signals to the contrary that she often sends out, and which are perhaps nothing more in the end than a sub-conscious defence mechanism. This has made a huge difference to me in how I feel towards her now, and how sad to realize that much of what we had to endure recently was due to miscommunication. Men truly are from Mars, and women are from Venus - and this applies even to us crossdressers, despite our allegedly well-developed feminine sides...

For my part, I have now committed to becoming a better "man" for my wife, even as I accept my "Leslie" side more and more. I believe that there is room for both, and that this simply represents a duality, and not a dichotomy. The burden of proof now rests with me to demonstrate to my wife in both actions and deeds that she and "Leslie" can live in a state of mutual co-existence and acceptance if she is willing, even if there is no great affection for her.

This may also be a good opportunity to close this portion of the original thread, and turn our attention to the spin-off that Moderator Eryn has created in order to focus on the separate dialog that opened up with the enlightening comments DoorMat (how I hate that term!) introduced into the discussion.

Enough of my navel-gazing! ;) - the subject that she has brought up is far more relevant to most of us, especially as it introduces a much-needed GG perspective that we sometimes lose sight of, and which has become quite an eye-opener for some of us here.

Leslie, my heart goes out to you. You deserve better than this; to live a single life in which Leslie is respected and fulfilled. I hope you can find that someday.

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For my part, I have now committed to becoming a better "man" for my wife, even as I accept my "Leslie" side more and more. I believe that there is room for both, and that this simply represents a duality, and not a dichotomy.

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I like that. I like that very much.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

I was also heartened to discover yet again how deeply she cares for me despite the signals to the contrary that she often sends out, and which are perhaps nothing more in the end than a sub-conscious defence mechanism. This has made a huge difference to me in how I feel towards her now, and how sad to realize that much of what we had to endure recently was due to miscommunication. Men truly are from Mars, and women are from Venus - and this applies even to us crossdressers, despite our allegedly well-developed feminine sides...

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:hugs:
..............

:o

Merci, ma belle!

Sometimes, a gentle smack upside the head and a reality check work wonders. ;)

Hi Leslie, It's like a dud firecracker you don't know if it's going to fizzle or explode.

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Originally Posted by mikiarata

DADT = Don't Ask Don't Tell. It comes from the legislation Clinton signed as a "compromise" to not purge gays from the military. It didn't work in practice, because there was always someone willing to Tell.

Miki

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Originally, it was supposed to be a court martial offence to "out" another soldier to a commander or officer. The biggest problem came 17-19 years later when commanders would start asking peers about someone they thought might be gay until they got a confirmation. Once they got the confirmation indirectly, they could start the process for a dishonorable discharge and screw someone out of their military pension. Nearly all of the "outings" were financially motivated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

...

Yesterday, I had the opportunity to spend the entire day as "Leslie"...
...
Anyway, I spent the day trying on women's clothes and shoes, picked up a new dress and top, bought some make up, and capped off the evening with a meal in a nice restaurant. All day long, I was fussed over by attentive SA's and cashiers, encountered tons of smiles, was called "Ma'am" or "the lady" more times than I can count, and even got a few compliments on both my choices and what I was wearing. To say that I was in Heaven would be an understatement.

---

So you went out and had a really good time AS the other woman.

Quote:

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But then reality hit...

My wife knew that I was going out as "Leslie" (I no longer make any bones about that, her disapproval notwithstanding) and she made it very clear that she was unhappy about it. She also tried to pick a fight with me on numerous occasions the preceding evening with lots of guilt and manipulation thrown in for good measure to try to put me in a bad mood and make sure that I wouldn't enjoy my day out, but I just let it roll off my back like water off a duck's @ss.

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Quote:

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And for the record, it's not that I don't understand her ambivalence about all this, and I am already doing the best I can to address my needs in this area while still respecting hers - it's the controlling an manipulative tactics that she uses to try to keep me on a short leash as opposed to being more amenable to compromise that really get my back up.

And so it was last night. I came home to a dark house, she was already in bed, and this morning, only a few short, curt words were exchanged before she went off to work. I can't wait to get my usual earful when she gets home tonight...

---

Simply put, you stopped being the man that she loved, and probably could have manipulated and became "the other woman" competing for her male companion. You spent money that she may have thought was partly hers - on the other woman. You
spent the whole night out, with the other woman, rather than doing the things on her honey-do list, taking HER out shopping for more clothes, or for a nice dinner. You also admitted that when shopping for her, you acted like the bored and frustrated husband who "had" to be there. You don't think that your wife might have loved to hear you tell her how beautiful she looked in at least a few of those outfits? You like being called ma'am, getting compliments on your looks and clothes, and in general getting affirmations. Consider how much your wife might want that same kind of attention - from the most important man in her life - her husband. Next chance you get, you take her shopping like she was shopping for you. Help find things in her sizes, compliment her on every outfit you like, and have the other sales reps join in. Even if she doesn't buy the outfit, she will love that you loved seeing HER wear it.

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So my point is - I appear to live in two different worlds. "Leslie" is a "persona non grata" at home, my wife and I have a DADT relationship which has its ups and downs (more downs than ups lately), and there seems to be a continuing, underlying tension in our household over this, no matter how much I bend over backwards to accommodate her needs just to keep things in balance.

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Be really honest with yourself and have your wife be really honest with you ... are you REALLY that much of a man? Did you wife date you and marry you because she loved how strong, macho, and virile you were? Did she love it when you made mad passionate love to her and brought her to extacy as you made love to her for as long as she wanted? Did she tell you her fantasies - which may have involved romantic as well as sexual fantasies, including romantic places, special people, and special activities? How did you respond? Did you make it a priority to find some way to imaginative way to fulfill both the romantic and sexual fantasies?

How does she react when you give her genuine and heart-felt compliments? Do you know HOW she wants to be acknowledged? Maybe she wants you to appreciate how smart she is, how much you LIKE it when she takes control!

I'd strongly recommend the Landmark Forum - from Landmark Education - which would address 99% of the issues you are dealing with, just by giving you a new way of looking at things, including you wife.

If you really want power in your marriage, to create a marriage where you wife might event WANT to go out with Leslie - then you need to take 100% responsibility for the marriage, and be grateful and happy for ANYTHING you get back! Not because that's the "Truth" - but because living that way gives you power in the relationship, the power to cause love and affection as much as you want as often as you want.

Tell you wife how much you love her - at least 10 times a day. Tell her how beautiful she is - at least 12 times a day, and tell her how much you love being married to her - at least 12 times a day. Be genuine, if it's her smile and her laugh that are beautiful, then tell her that. If she gets powerful and strong, let her know you love that.

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The other world is the one that "Leslie" inhabits, where she is universally liked and appreciated, treated with dignity and respect, and where people are intrigued by her and enjoy her company, rather than being put off by her.
It's truly a schizophrenic situation, and I can't help but wonder if there will ever come a point where the twain shall meet?

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You have been given an incredible gift! You have been able to experience the most wonderful parts of being a woman, WITHOUT the drama of the first period, the friends who suddenly shut you out, the horrors of being betrayed by your best friend, and the terror of being publicly humiliated by the "mean girls" in front of your entire class, or even just the boy your liked.

You've been able to enjoy and appreciate having people see you, admire you, compliment you, respect you, and be wonderful to you. But you forgot that this is EXACTLY what you wife wants more than anything else in the world, and she wants it most - from YOU!

If, after giving her all those compliments and expressing all that love, and she really begins to appreciated it, and THEN she asks what's up, you can share that you remembered how much you loved being treated that way as Leslie, and realized that she might want to be treated in a similar way.

If you start letting her know that being Leslie has given you new insights into HER needs, and you express a genuine interest in her happiness, and letting her know that LESLIE Loves her too, there is the chance that she might actually want to meet Leslie, perhaps in a neutral place, where she can walk away if she starts to feel embarrassed. She may see that you can pass, she might see how happy you are, and she might want you to be as happy as you have made her.

At the moment, it's quite possible that your wife may see Leslie as the kind of girl she totally hated in school, the self absorbed, vain, selfish little b*tch that thinks the world should revolve around her as the center of the universe, and if your wife can't handle it - then too bad for her!

If ANYTHING, you want you wife to feel as if SHE were the center of YOUR Universe - and that LESLIE wants to be caught in that orbit TOO! Let her tell you how to dress, help you with make-up, and even tell you how to sit, walk, talk, and manners. It will give her a sense of power, and you might even find that you really LIKE having your wife take an active role in your feminization.

Thank you, Debbie, for the time and effort you took to write such a lengthy and well thought-out reply. And while I don't necessarily agree with everything you said in it, there is much food for thought there, and much valuable relationship counselling.

I believe that I had already addressed a number of the issues that you allude to in my last post above, where I did offer my mea culpas for those areas where I was clearly out of line with my wife based on some additional revelations (epiphanies?) that I subsequently had.

I do want to clarify one thing, though. Despite the hard line I appear to have taken with my wife over the last "Leslie" outing, this was the product of sheer frustration over her intransigent position in this instance, and what I saw as an attempt to control me - almost to the point of bullying. And considering that I have zero tolerance for bullying of any kind, my knee-jerk response, as usual, was to stand up to that...

The truth is, I do try to make up for my crossdressing in so many other ways in our relationship to compensate for it, and our marriage wouldn't have lasted as long as it has had I consistently been the selfish pig that some of my own words perhaps inadvertently portrayed me as.

One of the problems I struggle with is that my wife has some self-esteem issues that predate my first meeting her - problems that include an inability to accept praise or compliments (or criticism, for that matter), as well as a tendency to be a bit of a martyr. Conversely, she seems to over-compensate for that by acting like a control freak at times. Long-standing anxiety issues that she exhibits at times are likely at the root of all this.

Case in point - when I talk about the original shopping trip to Jones New York and feigning disinterest in the goings-on while there - that was just me playing the expected "male" role, which consists of acting totally bored, making it appear that I was dragged there under extreme duress, and looking as if someone had just shot my dog. After all, isn't that what "real" men are supposed to do when their wives or SO's take them clothes shopping, and to do otherwise would raise "suspicions" in the eyes of the other shoppers and the SA's? So, more of a CYA move on my part for both her benefit and mine...

That said, I did compliment my wife on some of her choices, and did surreptitiously make some suggestions as to other items that might look good on her. But in her usual self-deprecating way, she shrugged these off, and found a million reasons why certain items wouldn't look good on her (sleeves too short exposing alleged "bat-wings", too baggy for her petite frame, color makes her face look pale, just doesn't "feel" right etc., etc.).

I realize that this is fairly typical with GG's, who invariably have body image issues no matter how good they look to the outside world. And my wife is an attractive woman who has managed to maintain a trim and youthful figure despite the ravages of time, and can easily hold her own against a woman half her age in that department. And yes, I let her know that all the time, and how much I admire and appreciate it. So all the more reason for me to be frustrated by this poor self-image which has no basis in fact. In the end, all she bought was another pair of utilitarian black pants that she can wear to work with a number of different tops she owns. Borrringgg...

My failed attempts at compliments aside, I long ago gave up trying to buy things for my wife that I thought might look good on her when I would come across them during my own shopping excursions. This was mainly because she somehow got it into her head that I was buying the exact same things for myself because I liked them so much, and that just made her feel creepy, used, and second-rate. Nothing could be further from the truth, as "Leslie" always had her own sense of style, and what looks good on her doesn't necessarily look good on my wife - and vice versa. Funny thing is, though - back in the days when I was still "allowed" to buy my wife clothes for Christmas, birthdays etc., her friends and co-workers invariably raved about those items and complimented her on "her" excellent fashion sense. Sigh...

So, the truth is, I do encourage my wife to spend money on herself, be it on clothes, spa visits, mani/pedis, or just plain "fun" events, but for some reason, she just hates to do this, and always seems to put others first.

So yes, I do get flak occasionally for the money I spend on "Leslie", but given the circumstances, I feel that this is also highly unfair and somewhat manipulative - and again, something which adds to my frustration surrounding our particular DADT situation.

Leslie, in your last two posts you have mentioned several things that you are doing to help ease the situation. Has your wife said anything about taking a step toward you. For you to continue to feel good about taking some steps toward her, you also need to know she is commited to taking steps toward you. That doesn't mean she ever has to see the cd'ing or participate, but to eventually come to a point of being OK, just knowing you are a cd, even without involvement. Like Reine said, she has to come to a place where she no longer punishes you mentally or emotionally. That is going to require a willingness to talk and compromise on both parts, probably with a professional third person. That is what is going to be required for you two to come to an understanding and live in peace.