But of a conundrum ...

It's been a bit of a while since I started dressing, getting on 10 years now. My wife has known all along and all the slow steps we've taken to get to the point where Jessica was born has been wonderful.

Along the way I discovered I am bi, I've never done anything with a man before now, but the thought of picking someone up, turning them on and bringing them home ... well :devil:

Anyway, the issue is there aren't many places a starting out TG can go to have fun, hang out with new people and be as female as possible. With one exception, there is a local "club" of sorts that allows, infact, encourages TG/CD patrons to show.

That's where it gets a bit complicated, see this place is a no female zone. They don't allow women at all ever. The second issue is that the place is generally a hook-up spot, complete with rooms, beds, etc. From what I've read it's a dark place, glory holes and porn on tap 24/7.

I've always fantasized about going since I read the details of what goes on inside there. What they have, and how welcoming they are to people like me. I have no secrets with my wife so over the past few weeks we've been discussing this place. This past week she made it clear she feels I should go. So we discussed it on Friday & Saturday (they were having a ladies night on Saturday, where CD's and TG's get in free, free drinks, etc) and she pushed me to go.

After several hours of fighting with the butterflies and nervous scared feelings, I did my make up, but my best stuff on and after getting several re-assurances it was fine I headed out the door.

I didn't make it very far though. Less than a block before I turned around and headed straight back home. I couldn't do it to her, or to us. The chances of something happening there are too high, and the chances of us being okay in the end (for real, despite her assurances) are too low.

When I returned (hardly 10 minutes after I left, including a stop at the store for some chocolate ice-cream and soda) she seemed upset. Unusually upset in my opinion that I was unable to go through with it. So I guess my questions are ...

1. Should I take her up on the offer and go on the next ladies night? Do I just accept the assurances and hope for the best or do I keep plugging away at the assurances until I get to the root of her thoughts on the matter?

2. Is there something I'm missing here? I've never been as pushed to possibly cheat on her like this before, I'm wondering where this is coming from (any thoughts you might have will likely help shed light on the issue).

3. Am I crazy for even considering it?

Thanks, any help would most certainly be accepted :thumbsup:

If I were to list 1,000 places to go when presenting as a female, the place you described would rank #999 at best (as in if I think about it hard enough, I bet I could come up with one worse destination).

Rotten idea, IMHO.

Why not ask your wife why she feels you should pursue experimentation with your bicuriosity. It may be easier for you to follow through on this if you understand what she feels about it. But ultimately, it's a matter of what you really want. Don't do it because she wants it...do it if its your desire (provided you really have her support).

And I agree, this particular place sounds horrible. Isn't there a better way to hook up with a guy...something safer and decidedly more hygienic?

Jessica,

And what has she told you of her desires? Does she want the same privileges? I just cannot fathom a woman pushing her husband into a homosexual affair. That is mind-boggling to me.

Sometimes, when a woman says "Go ahead" it's not permission, but a dare.

Kathi

I have never understood open marriages. (My first wife was not faithful.) Being married, I could never go to such a place. I applaud your turning around. Being Bi and married, does not change the fact, that you took a vow to be faithful. I would avoid any meat market settings.

I can’t say I would have any idea why she would want you to do this. Then again this type of thing/place isn’t my thing, but to each their own. Perhaps it is a sexual thing on her part? I have heard of some females being into their man doing such things. As was said it is possible that she may ask for the same privilege with others. Also I notice you say there that there could possibly be negative things come from this regardless of reassurance. This I think would be main sticking point.

I think you should find out why she is pushing you in this direction there has to some reason. I would for sure find out what the situation is on her end before acting upon anything.

Also you should really consider the risk of disease. I would seriously reconsider this as other than sexual satisfaction you do seem to be risking a lot for it.

I think you made the right decision! Ask yourself how would I feel if the tables were turned!

You could go, but just recline any advances made toward you. You could say you where
just seeing what it is like, and you are already in a commitment. You would not be lying.
Rader

Maybe she was upset because she had plans for the night.. what's good for the goose and all ... just saying.

I have to agree with Sara, there are a lot of places you can go to get out. I might try reaching out to other members in your area. I really can't see any good coming from the place you described

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Originally Posted by JessicaMay

Anyway, the issue is there aren't many places a starting out TG can go to have fun, hang out with new people and be as female as possible. With one exception, there is a local "club" of sorts that allows, in fact, encourages TG/CD patrons to show.

That's where it gets a bit complicated, see this place is a no female zone. They don't allow women at all ever. The second issue is that the place is generally a hook-up spot, complete with rooms, beds, etc. From what I've read it's a dark place, glory holes and porn on tap 24/7.

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I do not think this is any female's idea of having fun.

To answer your three questions:
(1) No
(2) Probably. See Kelly's post.
(3) Yes

Have you and your wife ever had an open arrangement? If not there could be a number of reasons she wants you to go ahead:

• She's thinking of having an affair.
• She's having an affair.
• She wants a divorce and is hoping to claim in Court that you sleep with men in tawdry places, putting her at risk for getting AIDS.

Or ..

• She has no idea what goes on there and she naively wants you to have a good time somewhere dressed.
• She has low self-esttem.
• She's hurt that you might want someone other than her, and she's pushing you to see how far you'll go, as a form of self-punishment.
• She's pushing you hoping that you'll go for it in the hopes that her resulting greater pain will cause her to distance herself from you enough emotionally, that it will no longer hurt to be married to someone who wants others. In other words, she wants to stop caring.

My point with all this is that no one here knows why your wife suggested this. You should ask her until you feel that she is telling you the truth.

If you came home after 10 minutes, it was because you were listening to your gut feelings. They are seldom wrong. Also, being bi is not a license to be unfaithful. It just means that you have the capacity to fall in love with either men or women, one at a time if you are in relationships where agreement was to be monogamous.

Reine's post says it all pretty well.

You need to talk more with your wife. You two should not agree to do anything that BOTH of your are not comfortable with.

And if you two really do want an open relationship, that's not cheating. You two are mature, consenting adults and bi nor not, some people are meant to be monogamous and some people aren't. But it does sound like your wife may not be being completely honest here... but only one way to find out... and thats talking to her. Don't do ANYTHING until you find out why she was upset.

Oh... and yeah... GROSS!!! Stay away from seedy places like that!!! *cringes* SAFETY FIRST!!!

I cannot fathom why a wife would encourage her husband to be with a man, let alone in such a high risk and dangerous fashion. Like Reine said, there might be something seriously wrong going on that you wouldn't want to encourage. If she just wants you to go out dressed, there are zillions of better places for her to suggest you go to.

(When I first read it, I thought it sounded like a trap to get a divorce like Reine said.)

And I bet the floor is sticky in there and the reason the lights are low is so the genital warts don't stand out...Perhaps your wife is sick of you obsessing on this bisexuality fantasy so she wants you to "just do it" . And then,perhaps the fantasy[by turning it into reality] will fizzle out. Perhaps you are so hooked on your fantasy,that thinking of it is now the only way you get off,so she wants you to refocus.Did she arm you with condoms and flavored lube??

(the chances of us being okay in the end (for real, despite her assurances) are too low.

When I returned (hardly 10 minutes after I left, including a stop at the store for some chocolate ice-cream and soda) she seemed upset. Unusually upset in my opinion that I was unable to go through with it. )


Pump the brakes here sister. 1. your own "girl sense" starts to tell you something is wrong here. 2. She's upset that you didn't go? Ok ladies, what's wrong with this picture? Something tells me that there's more to this. Plus this does not sound like a respectable woman, CD or TS or would go. Think about your choices.

From what I gather, I have to think that your sex life with your wife is just about non existent.
Also, living in the pink fog could shroud your own perception of what's really going on. Usually, an arrangement like this will come with strings attached or she's already done something outside your marriage and is feeling guilty.
Come down out of the clouds and take a good hard look. Let that gut reaction work for you again when it comes to your Mrs.

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Originally Posted by Marcia Blue

I have never understood open marriages. ........

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Same here. "Marriage", by definition means, among other things, being faithfull to each other. If you claim to be married but are having sex or affairs with other people (same gender or not), it's not a marriage, it's a living arrangement. You and your wife are "roomates".

If you really want to see what it feels like to have sex with a man, why not just dress your wife up as a man, buy her a set of prosthetic genitals, and have her do what you want to be done to you? Who knows, she might enjoy it as well.

Wow what an incredible set of responses....and way more than I thought this kind of thing would garner.

I'm not going to try and respond to everyone individually, I think that would be insane . :eek: I will, however, try and respond to everyone's comments as points and see if we can clear this up a bit.

1. Firstly from what I've heard of from those with first hand experience. It's not a seedy, rundown sticky floored, screw house. It's a gentlemen's club. There's a bar, dance floor, meeting rooms, party rooms, etc. It is fully accredited and inspected by the appropriate health groups, and such.

That being said, it doesn't remove the "icky" factor of it being a hook-up joint. On this I don't disagree. What I can say for certain is it's not nearly as bad as I made it sound. The rooms are for rent, there are full showers, hot tubs, sauna, etc. Condoms are provided free of charge (they're in little dispensers all over the walls) and they have several health staff available to provide free screenings upon request. Of course that doesn't remove all the danger (which provides even more reluctance to go) but does lend itself to their credibility.

Without going into specifics of where I am, there's no way a place like that could exist here (legally) without providing all of the above services, with recent (and internet searchable) inspections from various agencies. So it's really not a dark seedy underground screw hole to goto, it's just an option to be once you get there.

2. Talking to my wife, that's pretty easy. We do that just about everyday. Infact on Saturday we had spent the entire afternoon together shopping, trying on new clothes and then relaxing at home just talking. It was an awesome day.

Please understand that all of these discussions are not an overnight thing. It wasn't decided Saturday afternoon to table the discussion about the spa, as they themselves refer to it, we have discussed it numerous times over several years. It's only recently that the direction of the discussion moved from reasons why I shouldn't go, to reasons why I should.

The reason, as she has told me, for the recent push in that direction is that there are other issues in this avenue as well. About 6 years ago I told her I was bi (I was already dressing for her a little bit at a time even back then). About 4 years ago we decided to start searching for an appropriate "third" for me to experience. We set out our rules and boundaries and such. In 4 years I've managed to meet plenty of nice people, but it always comes down to the same thing. They're either too flaky and want it now (random hook-ups I guess you'd call them) or they're more interested in her. I'm not interested in some random hook-up, nor someone on from a dating site pretending to be interested in me hooking up with her.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned earlier that I am honest, 100%. I have never told her a lie, or held a secret from her. She's read every post I've made on these forums, she's seen and met everyone I've met, read all my chat logs (or at least any that she was interested in). I'm not lying when I say I am 100% truthful to her in every way that I can be. Which brings me to ...

3. We don't have an open marriage. There is no "open" marriage. As someone stated before once you hit that arrangement your roommates and little else. Obviously why I have a problem "playing" without her present as that has never been the case ever before, and very likely will not be the case in the future.

That being said we're not adverse to the idea of including other people in our bed. We've done so from time to time before. It's nothing new at all. We have well established rules and boundaries that we settled on years ago. Opening the marriage is not open for discussion, for either of us. That doesn't mean (to use a tired old analogy) we want to eat peanut butter sandwiches for the rest of our lives, no matter how much we like peanut butter sometimes you want something else.

We're both open to that idea, we discuss things well in advance and plan out our activities accordingly. I'm not at all adverse to the idea of her being with someone else, and visa versa, provided the rules and such are respected.

Some smaller points,

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Sometimes, when a woman says "Go ahead" it's not permission, but a dare.

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True I thought of this. Though I don't think she'd be the kind of person to do that sort of thing. In the decade and a half we've been together I have never seen anything to indicate she would do that.

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You could go, but just recline any advances made toward you. You could say you where
just seeing what it is like, and you are already in a commitment. You would not be lying.

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This was kind of my plan. The question became, could I resist temptation to just go downstairs and get it over with. The answer is, I'm not willing to risk it.

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Maybe she was upset because she had plans for the night.. what's good for the goose and all ... just saying.

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Obvious thought. As it turns out the look she gave me, and follow up questions she had were a result of shock. She wasn't expecting me to not bother even going. She assumed I would at least have a drink or two before coming home. She apologized profusely for the mixed signals.

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My point with all this is that no one here knows why your wife suggested this. You should ask her until you feel that she is telling you the truth.

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I've done. We had a nice chat about it last night. I don't have reason to believe she's not telling me the truth any longer.

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You two should not agree to do anything that BOTH of your are not comfortable with.

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Agreed, clearly as I wasn't comfortable doing it. I didn't. When I returned I informed her as such as well as using the "stop" word which halts everything until we get the opportunity to talk things over and figure out what went wrong, where and how to fix it.

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From what I gather, I have to think that your sex life with your wife is just about non existent.

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I cannot imagine a statement more wrong about our marriage than this. At all, ever. I'm not going into details with you here, but if we had no sex life, this thread wouldn't exist at all.

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Originally Posted by linda allen

Same here. "Marriage", by definition means, among other things, being faithfull to each other. If you claim to be married but are having sex or affairs with other people (same gender or not), it's not a marriage, it's a living arrangement. You and your wife are "roomates".

If you really want to see what it feels like to have sex with a man, why not just dress your wife up as a man, buy her a set of prosthetic genitals, and have her do what you want to be done to you? Who knows, she might enjoy it as well.

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Faithful is a sliding term. I'm not unfaithful, nor have I ever considered being. She isn't either, but has considered it. No one is having affairs, please stop assuming such. (edit: forgot a line here ... ) Faithful being sliding means that you can be unfaithful according to someone's scale but not your own. Unfaithful on our scale means anything you're unwilling to share with your partner. If we're aware of what is going on, where and why, then it's not a problem. Otherwise it's cheating. This particular issue (note, I still call it cheating, but she doesn't agree with that term because she gave permission) isn't an issue of fidelity, or trust. It's how far should one go, when given the opportunity to see how far you can go. I think, and standby, my choice to not go speaks volumes to how I view the subject.

Also that last thing, ;) it's been done ... a lot :daydreaming:

Anyway we're more on the same page here. I'm still intent on not going. She's agreed that we'll move far more slowly on that front, and that any push from her will stop at this point. For now we'll continue with the dating sites and such, continuing to go out and meet people. It's been 5 or so years now, I can continue to wait it won't be the end of the world for either of us.

Unless it is. In which case ... stay safe classy people.

(also in case it isn't evident, thank you everyone for your responses. You've helped me wrap my head around this and find the right questions to ask. Golf clap all around.)

I can only put this from my point of view (a husband) and assume that the female (wife) would feel much the same way:

I would hate the thought of my wife being intimate with someone else, male or female. If it had to happen, I would rather not ever know about it. But supposing she wanted to go out and have sex with someone at a pick up place (or anywhere) and I told her it was OK. What would I think about while she was gone? What would I ask her when she came home? "What did it feel like?" "Did you enjoy it?" "Did you (use your imagination, some things aren't appropriate for this forum) to her?" "Did she .......... to you?"

I guess I've become "old fashioned" as I've matured, but to me, some things are sacred and sexual contact is one of those things.

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Originally Posted by linda allen

I can only put this from my point of view (a husband) and assume that the female (wife) would feel much the same way:

I would hate the thought of my wife being intimate with someone else, male or female. If it had to happen, I would rather not ever know about it. But supposing she wanted to go out and have sex with someone at a pick up place (or anywhere) and I told her it was OK. What would I think about while she was gone? What would I ask her when she came home? "What did it feel like?" "Did you enjoy it?" "Did you (use your imagination, some things aren't appropriate for this forum) to her?" "Did she .......... to you?"

I guess I've become "old fashioned" as I've matured, but to me, some things are sacred and sexual contact is one of those things.

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lol, it's not "old fashioned". I don't disagree with you in essence, but the end result is fun. As I've said we've had sex with other people a few times in our marriage. We respected our rules and boundaries and no harm has come of it. To put it into perspective in nearly fifteen years we've had only a few extras play roles in bed. With out going into specifics, 3x with 1 extra person, 2x with 2, and 1x swap in fifteen years, each separated by about 2 years (average).

We've never been with someone else while the other isn't in the same room. That is where I have the problem. I have no problem with the place, it's not as bad as you think or else it wouldn't be there. Literally, it wouldn't exist. This is the second iteration of the same place, in the same location (different owners) and has become a franchise (there are several like clubs in other cities). I have no problem with the actions. My problem exists in that she cannot be there yet still says it's okay if I go. That doesn't mean I'm going next time she says so either, because I have a serious problem breaking the rules.

Which leads exactly back to our opinions. Infidelity is not cool. Ever. The question at this point I think is. Should I be willing to re-evaluate and modify the rules with changing circumstances or even just changing thoughts on the matter? How far does it go before it becomes infidelity regardless of rules and boundaries on the issue? Meaning, even with a green light from the SO and from the rules, where should the line be?

I'm of the opinion that the rules are fine as they are. She hasn't outright said (though, now thanks to your insight I will ask her this) but it seems like there's a bit of want to re-evaluate the rules. I don't think they need to be, and if she's not cheating on me and or trapping me why would she want the rules changed? Granted in 5 years they've led to absolutely nothing, so there is that. There may be room for some tweaking here and there, but outright changes or scraps, I don't think so.

Just wondering out loud, how many "open Marriages" celebrate a 50th wedding anniversary? And whats the difference between an open marriage, and inviting others into your bed?
I was ready to agree with Kelly, then I read what Reine said, and knew there really is no more to be added, I think they are both right.It's a big difference between consent, and being insistent, it makes you go HMMM.

I suppose we all have weak moments in our lives and when faced with a decision such as yours we all of a sudden, WAKE UP! :)

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Originally Posted by Tina B.

Just wondering out loud, how many "open Marriages" celebrate a 50th wedding anniversary? And whats the difference between an open marriage, and inviting others into your bed?
I was ready to agree with Kelly, then I read what Reine said, and knew there really is no more to be added, I think they are both right.It's a big difference between consent, and being insistent, it makes you go HMMM.

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Interesting, wouldn't make for a very good survey though as the results wouldn't take into account any variables. Often times people rush into (I'm going to discuss open marriages here for a moment, this isn't insinuation that my marriage is open) an open agreement in a marriage with bursting libidos and too small an education on the subject. I think the more interesting question isn't how many "open marriages" make it to 50, how many of these fail simply because the people involved were too ignorant of the dangers they were playing with. With the appropriate kinds of people (people, not me) and the appropriate kinds of boundaries and rules in place they do actually survive, and thrive. There are many cultures in existence now where this is the standard and not the exception. There have been countless before them. Opening a marriage does not doom it to failure, inexorably. Too often people forget, when you play with fire you get burned.

That of course says nothing of the overwhelming odds all marriages face now anyway. What is it? 60% 70% of marriages end prematurely in divorce. You have a 3 in 5 or 1 in 3 chances of it kicking the bucket anyway. Even being fully faithful, that doesn't mean your partner may be. There are plenty of reasons why a marriage ends, but given the statistically insignificant portion of relationships that are actually "open marriages" their failure rates are nothing compared to general failure rates. While not the point I imagine, and a strawman argument I agree. Still you can't simply shrug off that there aren't many open marriages, and their failures (even if they're 100% of the sum) aren't but a single % of the total failure rates anyway.

I'm no longer willing to entertain posts which posit the strength of my marriage is not at it's best. It is, quite. Has been for a very long time. Do the math, if you read my into post or the few details on my profile you'll note I'm about 30. I've been with my wife for nearly 15 years (yup highschool sweethearts you'd call us, how many of us are around these days?). We've seen thick and thin. We've been penniless, homeless and have lost everything too many times to count. We've faced vindictive family members bent on tearing us apart through various legal and illegal, I may add, ways. We've survived a great loss (I'm not going to ever describe this beyond this line, here) that no relationship has any chance on surviving. We fight with a frequency mirrored by the passing comets, and talk about important things on a daily basis. When I tell you that we're fine, we are. The strength of my relationship is not open for debate. Put aside the bitterness of past pursuits, and believe me when I tell you, for the last time. We're fine, and we've never been better. Honestly.

The difference (in my opinion I didn't write the big book of relationship labeling or anything) between an open relationship and what I have here. Is very simple, one word. Permission. Open means you have permission to do as you please. This isn't a relationship in my books. Which is odd, because it seems I am fighting a strong wind here, only we're heading in the same direction.

When we've brought someone else into our bed, we both brought that person to bed. The key word there, is both.

Jessica, you posted your situation, presumably for others to comment on it, yet you seem to argue with every poster. Your seeming need to defend your unusual marriage arrangement tells me that you're not quite sure of it yourself.

Just do whatever you want, then tell us about it (or not) after it's done.

VR, Bondage, Degradation, Suppression

Have you considered Virtual Reality sex? I think it was in the 90s that VR was getting interesting, but it seems like it fizzled out, but I haven't kept up with it, so maybe there's some like that where you could have VR sex with others. VR is what I would call safe sex.

As much sexual experimenting as you and your wife have done, it sounds like you've probably tried bondage, or S/M, etc. I'm not married, and am actually a virgin, but I've fantasied along similar lines. I don't like S/M, but I've fantasied being married and putting my wife in bondage and inviting men to rape her, not painfully, but degradingly. I don't have such fantasies often, but occasionally.

So somewhere in my subconscious there seems to be a desire to make my beautiful (fantasy) wife feel degraded. I think this beautiful wife in my fantasy is me, my feminine side. From early childhood my feminine side was suppressed by may parents. "Big boys don't wear girls' clothes". In order to feel loved by my parents I want to degrade my beautiful feminine self.

Maybe your wife's masculine side was suppressed by her parents or others, so she fantasies degrading you, where you represent her masculine side. You could ask her if she remembers her parents or others telling her not to act like a boy.

- P.S., It occurs to me now that this may also explain many men's tendency to rape and even murder women. I think they were likely shamed more severely in their childhoods for expressing their feminine sides and they try to punish women for making them feel feminine. I believe society shames boys for being feminine much more than it does girls for being masculine, which could be why women are much less violent toward men than men are toward women. The same may apply to child abuse; men and sometimes women punish children for being weak. Men aren't supposed to be weak, so shamed men punish anyone who acts weak.

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Originally Posted by linda allen

Jessica, you posted your situation, presumably for others to comment on it, yet you seem to argue with every poster. Your seeming need to defend your unusual marriage arrangement tells me that you're not quite sure of it yourself.

Just do whatever you want, then tell us about it (or not) after it's done.

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I'm not even sure, wait? What?

I'm not even arguing. I'm not really sure what your on about? The basic points of the thread are established, cheating is bad, on this there is a consensus. I've even agreed with this sentiment several times. I'm not being argumentative on any of the actual points of this thread.

I am however always willing to defend my relationship. You're original post was belittling and demeaning. As though to put your normal marriage above whatever class my marriage is. I let that slide and didn't point it out. I wasn't rude, nor was I argumentative to you or anyone else here. I value your input, what I am trying to say is that the perception that my marriage has failed or is in the state of failing, is false ... off topic and rude at this point.

I've brought up new points, and addressed the old including the topic of fidelity. Which I don't disagree with any of you on the topic of.

We've since moved on since I made the original post (you'll note I've made a few this morning) and new things have come to light. I work midnights and she's a gamer girl (meaning she's up late into the morning anyway) so we talk almost all night long. I shared that with all of you above ...

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Which leads exactly back to our opinions. Infidelity is not cool. Ever. The question at this point I think is. Should I be willing to re-evaluate and modify the rules with changing circumstances or even just changing thoughts on the matter? How far does it go before it becomes infidelity regardless of rules and boundaries on the issue? Meaning, even with a green light from the SO and from the rules, where should the line be?

I'm of the opinion that the rules are fine as they are. She hasn't outright said (though, now thanks to your insight I will ask her this) but it seems like there's a bit of want to re-evaluate the rules. I don't think they need to be, and if she's not cheating on me and or trapping me why would she want the rules changed? Granted in 5 years they've led to absolutely nothing, so there is that. There may be room for some tweaking here and there, but outright changes or scraps, I don't think so.

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We've established that I'm not asking if it's okay to cheat.
We've established that she doesn't view this as cheating as she interprets the rules.
We've established given all of the above I'm still pretty intent on not going.
We've established I'm not willing to break the rules (ie: cheat) ever

So I'm asking, politely, that we move on I'd love to hear your opinion on this. As I said above, I think everything is fine with the rules and they don't permit this. Which is fine with me. I like that. I'm comfortable there, and where are.

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Originally Posted by LelaK

VR, Bondage, Degradation, Suppression

Have you considered Virtual Reality sex? I think it was in the 90s that VR was getting interesting, but it seems like it fizzled out, but I haven't kept up with it, so maybe there's some like that where you could have VR sex with others. VR is what I would call safe sex.

As much sexual experimenting as you and your wife have done, it sounds like you've probably tried bondage, or S/M, etc. I'm not married, and am actually a virgin, but I've fantasied along similar lines. I don't like S/M, but I've fantasied being married and putting my wife in bondage and inviting men to rape her, not painfully, but degradingly. I don't have such fantasies often, but occasionally.

So somewhere in my subconscious there seems to be a desire to make my beautiful (fantasy) wife feel degraded. I think this beautiful wife in my fantasy is me, my feminine side. From early childhood my feminine side was suppressed by may parents. "Big boys don't wear girls' clothes". In order to feel loved by my parents I want to degrade my beautiful feminine self.

Maybe your wife's masculine side was suppressed by her parents or others, so she fantasies degrading you, where you represent her masculine side. You could ask her if she remembers her parents or others telling her not to act like a boy.

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Wow! My jaw just dropped.

Uh I haven't actually heard of VR sex. Then again we're not all that far off with things like Love Dolls and the like. There are animatronic, sex toys you can get. They honestly creep me out for the most part. Which isn't a surprise, it's known as the uncanny valley. When you attempt to make something look human, there's a point at which it's good enough to fool you at a passing glance, but creeps you out if you actually look. There aren't many examples of things that have crossed the valley and managed to not look creepy. Neat idea though, I love it. I'll have to look something up about that ;)

Yes to the second paragraph. We certainly do enjoy a bit of bondage, etc. Not to the extent that you describe, certainly. There's no rape in there. It's about trust. You trust that the person you're with loves you enough to enjoy you, within limits, while you have no physical ability to stop them. You trust that they will remain within those limits, and that at any point you can stop it by using a stop word. You trust your partner will do the same. Before anyone get's any wild ideas, the furthest my wife and I have gone in this avenue, some handcuffs and blindfolds. Harmless teasing and nothing involving pain or degradation.

That being said, while I don't agree with your first part in whole. I agree with where it takes you, and it's a very interesting thought experiment here. Having a side of you repressed for so long is going to have effects on the side. It's conceivable that a correlation could take place between a desire to be a specific gender and having to repress it, and the fantasies of degrading (harmless degradation is cool, rape is not cool) that gender as a result.

Given that she too feels misrepresented in her skin, it's not a huge leap of the imagination that there may be a little of that in her. In which case this would be her way of receiving pleasure while being a man as she sees it. Very interesting. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by JessicaMay

They're either too flaky and want it now (random hook-ups I guess you'd call them) or they're more interested in her. I'm not interested in some random hook-up, nor someone on from a dating site pretending to be interested in me hooking up with her.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by JessicaMay

3. We don't have an open marriage. There is no "open" marriage. As someone stated before once you hit that arrangement your roommates and little else. Obviously why I have a problem "playing" without her present as that has never been the case ever before, and very likely will not be the case in the future.

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So you're into threesomes rather than each of you having separate lovers. One word of advice: please make sure that she wants the threesome as much as you do. If in the past you've been the instigator more than her, you don't want your wife to go along with it just because she want to keep her husband.

Also, if the agreement between you is threesomes, then stop toying with the idea of sleeping with someone at the club you describe, no matter how appealing it seems, no matter how much you believe you have her permission (when your gut feeling is telling you otherwise), to the point where you buy an outfit for the evening and actually step out the door.

I'm glad that you and your wife had a discussion last night after you made your original post and she clarified her position to you. I recommend that you bookmark this thread for future reference, when and if the urge to go there manifests itself again.

A marriage works and is a marriage as long as both partners willingly and happily agree to and follow the rules. Many open marriages work. You just don't find out that they are open unless they fail... and they fail for all the same reasons monogamous marriages fail. But if they fail... then OF COURSE IT'S BECAUSE ONE ONE CHEATING... /SARCASM

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Originally Posted by Tina B.

Just wondering out loud, how many "open Marriages" celebrate a 50th wedding anniversary? And whats the difference between an open marriage, and inviting others into your bed?
I was ready to agree with Kelly, then I read what Reine said, and knew there really is no more to be added, I think they are both right.It's a big difference between consent, and being insistent, it makes you go HMMM.

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How many monogamous marriages celebrate their 50th anniversary? Not many.

How many people in open marriages tell all their friends and family that they are in an open marriage? Not many.

How many marriages end up in divorce? A LOT.

How many monogamous marriages fail or have issues because of cheating???? A LOOOOOT!

If there was more communication and if more people married people that were on their same level of monogamy or monogamish, maybe there wouldn't be so many failed 'monogamous' marriages.

(and for the record... my boyfriend and I are monogamous... so I'm not biased and defending my own choices here, like some people are)

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Anyway, this is getting way off track and shouldn't be a discussion about whether one idea of marriage is the right idea of marriage. The OP and wife have their own arrangement and you should respect that.

My SO has said many times she would love to see me with another guy, in the 3 years we've been together it hasn't happened. First is that it's hard to find an honest person anymore, sure there's some left, but a sex club hardly seems like the place. I was talking with another bi CD in the area, hoping to dress and possibly play. Talked for about a month by email and based on the responses(or lack of) I was hardly willing to meet the person, nor was she. Clubs are not usually the best places to meet the people you are looking for. I wish I could offer advice on finding the right person, but I'm also looking for that so let me know ;)

Being comfortable to you and your SO should be the main concern. You want to be comfortable the entire time, it takes time to find that person with all the CD chasers or guys just hoping to bang your girl. The internet is probably the best way to find someone, at least that's what we're trying right now. I'm comfortable to CD in front of strangers, I enjoy it even with my masculine appearance, but to bring someone to my home or hotel room takes a lot more confidence in the new person. If your wife is ok with Jessica being with another guy, like my SO is ok with Kora and a guy that's awesome, but make sure you're comfortable and the person is safe. I wouldn't hesitate to ask for the latest STD/HIV test, but that's me.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

So you're into threesomes rather than each of you having separate lovers. One word of advice: please make sure that she wants the threesome as much as you do. If in the past you've been the instigator more than her, you don't want your wife to go along with it just because she want to keep her husband.

Also, if the agreement between you is threesomes, then stop toying with the idea of sleeping with someone at the club you describe, no matter how appealing it seems, no matter how much you believe you have her permission (when your gut feeling is telling you otherwise), to the point where you buy an outfit for the evening and actually step out the door.

I'm glad that you and your wife had a discussion last night after you made your original post and she clarified her position to you. I recommend that you bookmark this thread for future reference, when and if the urge to go there manifests itself again.

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Yes that is essentially the arrangement. I agree 100% on her needing to be active in the decision (it's rule #4, actually) to have an extra come to bed with us. It's her body, I'd never coerce her or otherwise to do things she isn't willing to do. When we bring someone to bed, it is the both of us doing it. I can't remember an instance (not that there have been many) where it has been instigated by one side or the other. It's usually mutual, talked about well in advance and each other's rules and boundaries respected.

I agree with you on the second and 3rd paragraphs as well. After some thought and discussion on the matter, I'm pretty sure the issue is closed for now. What I do know is it won't remain closed forever. One of the many things I've learned in our marriage, things are always open to revisit, things are always adjustable to new ideas and nothing is ever dealt with for good.

We talked a bit more this morning before I went to bed. As it turns out she has a great understanding of the rules in place, just a different interpretation of them. She interpreted the combination of rules 1, 3, & 4 meant that if given permission to go to "y" and do "x" then it's not outside the rules. However if you include rule #2 then it doesn't fall within the standard set and in my opinion falls too far outside the rules. She's not wrong, and neither am I. They're different interpretations of the same words.

Side note: Think of the effect similar to that in law. The law is written using a single set of words, the art of practicing law on the other hand is the art of interpreting those words. I actually found it awe inspiring when she told me that upon reflection she see's it as within the rules based on her interpretation. Which is entirely the kind of intelligent discourse I am so very lucky to have.

Ultimately the answer is no. I will not be going, ever. After our talk this morning (see, we really do talk everyday) we both agreed that the risk is not worth the reward. Despite that our old methods are not working adds no weight to the argument that it should be done. It's not the end of the world, one day we'll meet the right person and things will be good. Just because the old methods aren't achieving a specific goal, doesn't mean they aren't working. They're working as intended and keeps undesirables out of our relationship. Neither of us see the need to change the rules, though we agree some tweaking may take place in the near future to clarify some points.

Thank you for your input Reine, I assure you I will remember your words of wisdom.

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Originally Posted by Kora

My SO has said many times she would love to see me with another guy, in the 3 years we've been together it hasn't happened. First is that it's hard to find an honest person anymore, sure there's some left, but a sex club hardly seems like the place. I was talking with another bi CD in the area, hoping to dress and possibly play. Talked for about a month by email and based on the responses(or lack of) I was hardly willing to meet the person, nor was she. Clubs are not usually the best places to meet the people you are looking for. I wish I could offer advice on finding the right person, but I'm also looking for that so let me know ;)

Being comfortable to you and your SO should be the main concern. You want to be comfortable the entire time, it takes time to find that person with all the CD chasers or guys just hoping to bang your girl. The internet is probably the best way to find someone, at least that's what we're trying right now. I'm comfortable to CD in front of strangers, I enjoy it even with my masculine appearance, but to bring someone to my home or hotel room takes a lot more confidence in the new person. If your wife is ok with Jessica being with another guy, like my SO is ok with Kora and a guy that's awesome, but make sure you're comfortable and the person is safe. I wouldn't hesitate to ask for the latest STD/HIV test, but that's me.

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Thank you Kora, it's nice to know I'm not the only one out there. We've been at it for nearly the same period of time too, lol.

You are absolutely right that honest people are hard to find. In most cases you have to drag out of them what their actual intentions are before you ever agree to meet them. Don't get me wrong I've made plenty of friends meeting folks both online and off. I also have a wonderful and understanding group of friends and family that are willing and able to help. My older brother and his husband for example. My older brother has been down the road I'm just starting to go down now. He's been an out CD for nearly 10 years, and out as gay for longer. His husband is the one from which we received most of our first hand experience information regarding the place. Beyond that of course is the need to research anything before you go into it.

That however is a digression. I agree in whole that the internet is currently the best (and safest I may add) way to go about finding people, while it may be fruitless for many years it allows you to weed out individuals in a safe and effective manner. It also allows you to determine where a person fits before you really get to know them. There are CD chasers as you mentioned, they're of no real interest to me. The majority that I have encountered thus far are straight folks, while I wouldn't rule out straight folks for a bit of play off hand in the future, I cannot accept them as a first time. I haven't encountered too many of these folks who have the experience necessary for me to be comfortable with it. There are gay men, which are ideally what I am looking for in a first time. However within our rules, she (my wife) has to be present and most the gentlemen I have spoken with that are gay are not interested in that. There are plenty more, I'd be very interested in hearing about your searches and things you've learned, and sharing mine. Perhaps sometime we can chat about it via PM or such. It is truly great to find someone in a similar situation having similar problems.

Regarding STD's etc, I think by now it should be fairly evident that I'm not uninformed on the subject of sex and relationships. Everything must remain safe, thankfully where I live there are a number of free services you can take advantage of to get tested. Before any consideration is made to moving from talking on the internet & meeting in person (public place, coffee shop or bar) for an initial greet, one of those free tests are to be preformed. I have one addendum of course, it goes without saying that if I can't trust that person, then they cannot trust me. Therefor we all get tested (my wife, myself and the potential candidate). Though to be honest, we don't usually get that far.

Thank you for your input Kora, it's really nice to hear from you. Like I said if you feel the need or want to drop me a line and discuss our similar journeys, I'd love it very much. I'm glad you've found someone like I have, and I hope the best for you in your future searches.

I haven't posted yet, JessicaMay. Because it seemed there was WAY more going on with u and your SO than u initially mentioned. I think u realize most of the early replies were useless to u and may be why you've elaborated on your unique situation?

I've been married and divorced. Unlike, Bree, I don't think CHEATING causes relationships to fail. I believe lack of communication does. Irregardless of your unusual sexual situation, it sounds like your communication is better than 95% of relationships I've been in, heard of, or seen!

The only danger u both face is trusting the honesty of your chats. Not necessarily the honesty of the other spouse, but that of yourselves! And, it sounds like you're even prepared for that!

I think u should be giving relationship lessons, not asking us for help. I don't think many, or any, of us r qualified to give u 2 advice!

Last add: Some have referred to your marriage as, "Open". I think of it more as, "Evolved". I believe if more couples were willing to openly discuss issues as u 2 r, the divorce rate wouldn't be nearly as high as it is!

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Originally Posted by docrobbysherry

I haven't posted yet, JessicaMay. Because it seemed there was WAY more going on with u and your SO than u initially mentioned. I think u realize most of the early replies were useless to u and may be why you've elaborated on your unique situation?

I've been married and divorced. Unlike, Bree, I don't think CHEATING causes relationships to fail. I believe lack of communication does. Irregardless of your unusual sexual situation, it sounds like your communication is better than 95% of relationships I've been in, heard of, or seen!

The only danger u both face is trusting the honesty of your chats. Not necessarily the honesty of the other spouse, but that of yourselves! And, it sounds like you're even prepared for that!

I think u should be giving relationship lessons, not asking us for help. I don't think many, or any, of us r qualified to give u 2 advice!

Last add: Some have referred to your marriage as, "Open". I think of it more as, "Evolved". I believe if more couples were willing to openly discuss issues as u 2 r, the divorce rate wouldn't be nearly as high as it is!

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Thank you very much for this reply. I might not agree that the early replies were useless, they certainly provided information that helped steer my conversation with my wife. Also given the limited amount of information I had started with, it really isn't a surprise to see some of the conclusions. You are right, I elaborated because I wanted more real discourse on the subject matter. It has and I've been delighted with the thread so far, regardless of content or frustrations.

We seem to think very much alike, you and I. While cheating can cause a relationship to fail, it is certainly the communication aspect that causes the failure cascade. Being unique people we all have unique tastes, thoughts and feelings. Despite being in a relationship I don't expect her individuality to be repressed to conform within the standard definition of a marriage. As such we may not always agree on the finer points eye to eye, but we're never not willing to discuss them with each other.

I apologize, but I don't seem to be getting the gist of your next paragraph though. I'm hoping you could elaborate a bit on this. As I understand it (forgive me if I'm wrong) but you're saying that during our conversations we could potentially lie to one another (let's assume for good reasons here, not vindictive evil ones) or tell half truths. That is certainly a possibility.

During these conversation you take what one party has to say with a grain of salt, a bit. You compare them to the actions of the person and once you have the combined results you can determine the nature of the statement (false, intentionally misleading, unintentionally misleading, omission due to embarrassment, etc) with a certain degree of confidence.

When that doesn't work you always have the option of leaving the topic 'open' and revisiting it at a later date. The majority of our conversations on matters such as sex, CD/TG, etc are the results of years worth of conversations. Sometimes we go backwards, sometimes we go forwards but we always revisit old conventions to see if anything needs tweaking or modifying in light of new conditions. The interesting aspect of revisiting something at a later date (when combined with a memory like mine) you can compare current results to old and again gain some more determination as to the nature of one statement or another. When contradictions present, they create opportunities to discover what caused them.

I do love your definition of our relationship, evolved is nicely put. I do agree though, if more people were willing to share more of themselves with their partners through rational and continued communication, then we'd see a great deal more happy couples out there.

What I meant was, that it is easy to misstate your actual feelings to your partner. Or, simply change your feelings or your mind! Your "revisiting" allows for those options. Couples always have disagreements, then fite. They usually come to some uneven compromise. Then try to live for years using rules which may have been obsolete a week after they were set. However, neither wishing to stir the issue and start a new fite, just live with useless rules!

The problem; it only takes ONE partner to be unwilling to wade into the communication morass to change a marriage from partnership to separation. And, often both r unwilling.

Lordy,,,Lordy,,,Lordy,,,, I got enough problems without Adding that Crap to the Mix ,,,,,Geezzzzzzzzzz---------------Ussssssssssssssssssssss,,,,ILL,,,, JUMP,,,, I will ,,,