The nature of being femme (GGs also welcome)

When you girls think about being femme, what do you think it means? Kind of the nature of it, I guess.

I've been rolling this idea around in my head for a few days, and these are some of my disorganized and disconnected thoughts.

I think that we can draw a distinction between sex and gender. Sex is what you have between your legs. Gender is something... less tangible. It affects how you think about and react to things. It affects how you view the environment around you day-in and day-out. It affects your style, your interests, your personality.

As I introspect on my personality, I can identify aspects of it that are masculine and aspects that are feminine. For example...

Masculine:
When confronted with a critical situation, my instinctual reaction is to identify the variables in the situation I have control over and try to mitigate the situation.
When confronted with a problem someone else is having, my instinctual reaction is to try to comfort them by helping them fix the problem.

Feminine:
I am a fairly sensitive person emotionally. I tend to empathize well with the feelings of others.
When socializing, I love to sit and chat and gossip with friends over coffee.

Those are just a couple of high-level things I thought of on each side and they certainly aren't perfect examples...but hopefully they give you an idea of what I'm getting at.

So I guess what my take-away on all this is (and I think others have had similar thoughts based on my reading here), is that there are people at different points on the scale of masculine to feminine and depending on where they are on that scale may make a big difference as to how they feel about their sex (as opposed to their gender).

You could have someone who is male (sex) and completely masculine (gender)
You could have someone who is male (sex) and completely feminine (gender)
You could have someone anywhere in between.

Of course the exact same thing would apply for GGs.

The funny thing is that - as so many have said - so much of this is imposed by societial norms! I imagine that there are many, many people out there (the majority, I would imagine) who would not fall strictly on one end or the other of the spectrum - but don't dare to do anything about it - and so they continue on just as they always have.

So this leaves me curious, where do you girls feel like you are on the Masculine to Feminine scale? And what are aspects of yourself you consider part of your feminine self and/or your masculine self?

For me, on a scale of -5 to 5 with -5 being completely masculine and 5 being completely feminine, I would put myself pretty close to a 0 - varying between a -1 and a 1 depending on the day. Some days I feel more masculine and some days I feel more feminine.

I don't have any interest in having SRS - I'm comfortable with myself as a male by sex. That said, I don't want to JUST be either my masculine self or Amanda (my feminine self). I want to be both.
Anything else is denying one part or the other of me exists, and that is just lying to myself.

To me it means presenting as a female.

I think it's dangerous to view fixing things as a masculine trait and empathy as a feminine trait.

Jess, I'd love to hear you elaborate on that a bit.

Traditionally that's how those roles have been viewed.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just curious :)

~Amanda

A definitive feminine trait (for lack of a better way of putting it) is
be "expressive " Women are allowed / permitted to be
be much much more expressive of theirselves in not just they wear, but
in how they live. A man will catch crap from others (both men and
women ~ but most men) by what they wear, drive, decorate their home.

I caught flak just for wearing a braided olive drab green survival
bracelet leftover from my Marine Corps, for wearing a pink MEN'S Polo shirt. For
using a unambiguous stab looking stainless steel cigarette case. The list goes on and on.

I like flowers, plants, houseplants, Home Interior, interior decorating, country, cottage style ~ homey type things.
I like cooking. I like women and not only most things wen "typically " like?
But are interested in! I like pastel colors and soft fabrics and scents. In short? Its not just women's clothes that I like?
I genuinely like any and all things a atypical women might like and enjoy.

But if you ad a man show the slightest interest in such? If your lucky?
People will only beat you up with. Bibles?

I don't believe there's anything necessarly wrong or to ashamed of wanting to
be, dress, or being expressive in personality or dress?

Because there's nothing wrong or anything to be ashamed, guilty about EXPRESSING feminity or being a woman.

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Originally Posted by Dana3

I like flowers, plants, houseplants, Home Interior, interior decorating, country, cottage style ~ homey type things.
snip
I don't believe there's anything necessarly wrong or to ashamed of wanting to
be, dress, or being expressive in personality or dress?
snip
Because there's nothing wrong or anything to be ashamed, guilty about EXPRESSING feminity or being a woman.

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Dana, I totally agree on all counts.

I also take quite an interest in decor.

I've gotten weird looks from both roommates and office mates before when I went and got lamps/rugs/etc to decorate the home or office with because I thought it looked too drab, lol.

You're so right. It's nothing to be ashamed of.

Hugs

~Amanda

Many of us here are full spectrum people in terms of feelings and emotions. There is no rigid fixture for either biological sex as far as likes and dislikes. This is what makes us all unique individuals. That being the case, how we present(as male or female) is a personal choice.:)

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Originally Posted by Amanda Roberts

Dana, I totally agree on all counts.

I also take quite an interest in decor.

I've gotten weird looks from both roommates and office mates before when I went and got lamps/rugs/etc to decorate the home or office with because I thought it looked too drab, lol.

You're so right. It's nothing to be ashamed of.

Hugs

~Amanda

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On my traveling throughout the world I've seen and witnessed young school age,, pre. Teen. And even young men who were nothing more than good or best friend ~ GASP!! Hold hands while walking.

In Western overly ultra hetroecntric ~ homophobic ~ religious culture / society? That alone will get you outcasted, shunned, beaten up, and in the eyes of more than just a few justifiably. KILLED!

In the end I see it as just a generalization based of off society's ideal of what feminine is. Which I don't agree with, because in the seven billion people in the world we are all individuals.

Like what you want there is no feminine or masculine activities or hobbies, its just how society perceives them.

Hi Amanda, It kinda sounds like you are trying to re-invent the wheel.
When I dress I try to look as best I can but I am always going to be a guy.

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Originally Posted by Amanda Roberts

Jess, I'd love to hear you elaborate on that a bit.

Traditionally that's how those roles have been viewed.

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Probably not a wise idea using "tradition" You do realize that most "traditional" roles are misogynistic right? One very good reason that the TGs need to start working toward our own equality, one that doesn't expect "us" to be anything but who we are. This type of question comes up a lot and it tends to try and reinforce stereotypes. Things like "How do women....." and "why are women always...." One would hope that we as a group would be a little more aware that what society says someone should be or do isn't the way it is.

You see it is thinking like this that holds some people back. Case in point, two men want to adopt a child (or one has a child and they live together) in the empathy as a female trait camp, that child won't get love or maternal care which we all know is BS. What about single men who have children?

My SIL is better at building and fixing than I would ever be.

When I think of being femme...well I don't I just think about being me. If that is femme, good, if not I don't really care

For me femininity portrays itself in one way ,movement and gestures , you can be big, small , attractive ugly,wearing old clothes or anything else if you have that soft flowing movement then you will be feminine if you have not then it does not matter what you are wearing you will not be feminine (just my opinion) it is something that flows out of you from within you , can you learn to be like it ,I hope so but you have to think of it as a one way street .

As several other posters have said, it's only our culture that tells us that men are good at some things and women are good at other things. Personally, I prefer if people leave words like "masculine" and "feminine" aside, and instead use more specific words:

- if you use soft, flowing movements then you are "graceful"
- if you take care of other people you are "nurturing"
- if you are good at clear thinking you are "logical"
- if you are rough and cruel you are "brutal"
- if you present a delicate, attractive appearance, you are "pretty"
- if you present a dignified, attractive appearance, you are "handsome"
- if you present a sexualized, attractive appearance, you are "sexy"

etc.

Interesting questions... but is there really an answer? It is clear to me that the sex of the person is only part of the puzzle. This puzzle has a rainbow of pieces that may fit different ways for each person.

When I try to define what some consider as feminine I also see what some consider as masculine. And I see both these traits in average individual women and men. So to me some of these traits, some are perhaps talents, are more socially derived at and or learned for perhaps another reason. So this side is just the result and not source.

What's more interesting to me are a person's feelings of self identity, their nature. This might be where our own gender identity lives. When your self identity leans toward, or identifies with, the feminine you may learn and do things that support this in your self identity. When your self identity leans toward, or identifies with, the masculine you may learn and do things that support this in your self identity. Some, like myself, do a combination of both the feminine and the masculine.

But with that said I don't think a person is only feminine or just masculine. I think our own self identity's are far more complex and unique than just two choices. And that we all find ways to support this in our own way, some very obvious and others nearly hidden. There is no simple explanation or just two choices.

I also believe that if you bring conflict into a person's feelings of self identity, their nature, and not allow them to be themselves you create problems, internal conflicts that must be resolved at some point or you create more problems.

Very interesting and enlightening answers from everyone! I'm pretty new to this aspect of my self-identity so I'm still learning about it and exploring it.

Thank you so much for all the wonderful feedback and answers! Keep them coming :)

~Amanda

Well said Jess

Kelley

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it's only our culture that tells us that men are good at some things and women are good at other things.

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If it's only our culture, then why do people like me need physical medicine (hormone therapy, surgeries, etc.) to transition? Why can't I just crossdress, sashay around the room, and adopt other societal ideas of women, (or even the rather exaggerated image of the same that exist in so many men's minds)?

Although I think many of society's norms for masculine / feminine are pretty arbitrary, there does appear to be a need for them in our minds, and some of them are based on biological reality.

For example:

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- if you present a delicate, attractive appearance, you are "pretty"
- if you present a dignified, attractive appearance, you are "handsome"

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Testosterone vs. estrogen has a pretty profound effect on the appearance of your face. There are facial features that tend to develop under the influence of one over the other - these play a pretty profound role in identifying a masculine face vs. a feminine face. Similarly, testosterone tends to encourage the development of musculature. (I've lost quite a bit physical strength since I started HRT.) So I think there's a biological basis for stereotyping "physical size" and "physical strength" as masculine traits, and "petite", "delicate" as stereotypically feminine traits. Of course on an individual basis, this stuff flies out the window in many cases - for example, there are some tough, physically strong, masculine acting women in West Texas who'd kick my ass for using a word like "delicate" to describe them! (One of my dear lesbian friends was just shocked to discover that these seemingly butch women were NOT sisters at all, but perfectly straight.)

I think taking a brute force approach to problem solving, one involving power, tends to be a masculine solution method, while more subtle, negotiation based approaches tend to be more feminine.

I think women tend to communicate more than men, and are often in better touch with their emotions. (Again, big variations here, but there have been studies done where women, on average, communicate quite a bit more than men, although ironically the scientist who did some of this work was a guy who'd talk your ear off!) As for emotions - some of that is social (boys don't cry!) and I think some of it is hormonal, I don't get into crazy rages anymore, and I am generally in better touch with what I'm feeling, at least I think so. If nothing else, it's easier to cry now.

Men tend to be hierarchical - there's a pecking order, and the further up it you go, the more intense the competition is. Women tend to be more cooperative - but of course there can be some very strong and competitive women. I don't suspect they view competition in exactly the same way as men do, and I know the way men treat them is a source of GREAT frustration oftentimes. For men, it really is mostly one big long pissing contest. I can't imagine that there are too many women out there who don't view this behavior on the part of men as being pretty stupid a lot of the time.

Anyway, some of this stuff is real enough, but it's fairly subtle, and varies A LOT from person to person. Quite a bit of it is totally arbitrary and social (men's vs. women's speech patterns are almost entirely learned, for example), but we seem to need this differences in some ways.

That said, basing our entire social order on this stuff is utter and complete bullshit.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

If it's only our culture, then why do people like me need physical medicine (hormone therapy, surgeries, etc.) to transition? Why can't I just crossdress, sashay around the room, and adopt other societal ideas of women, (or even the rather exaggerated image of the same that exist in so many men's minds)?

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Men certainly should be allowed to crossdress, sashay around the room, and adopt whatever other aspects that our society has termed feminine.

But given the rigid gender divide in our society, some people don't want to be men-who-do-stereotypically-feminine-things; they feel they belong on the female side of the rigid gender divide. That's fine with me. I just don't want all of us here putting any effort into reinforcing that rigid gender binary and insisting that's the way it has to be because of Nature and Biology.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

Men tend to be hierarchical - there's a pecking order, and the further up it you go, the more intense the competition is.

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LOL. Humans are hierarchical, Paula. If you don't see women that way, just wait.

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Originally Posted by JessM.

But given the rigid gender divide in our society, some people don't want to be men-who-do-stereotypically-feminine-things; they feel they belong on the female side of the rigid gender divide. That's fine with me. I just don't want all of us here putting any effort into reinforcing that rigid gender binary and insisting that's the way it has to be because of Nature and Biology.

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Well, I guess I'm saying it's some of both - sociology and biology. The radical feminists would like it if it's all learned behavior. And I think that's mostly the case. The problem is, differences seem to need to exist, some of them biological, and some of them behavioral. I'm getting a crash course in this stuff via the school of hard knocks. Believe me, if transitioning was just something "people felt like doing" - I wouldn't do it. I'm not especially thrilled at the concept of having a woman's brain in a man's body. If death wasn't a more attractive option than staying a man, I wouldn't transition. If there were a talk therapy, or a medicine to suppress this - I'd choose those options.

As best I can tell, what I'm going through is medical in nature and biological in origin. At the same time, I'm having to learn quite a lot of behavioral stuff. I get to find out how I'm doing every time I leave my home, and hear either "sir" or "ma'am".

Again though, I don't think that any of this is any way to organize a society. Even given the differences in our brains and bodies - we should all be treated equally.

Kinsey rated people's sexual preference from 1 to 6 with 1 being totally straight (including fantasies) and 6 being totally gay.
Harry Benjamin used a similar scale, 1 being an "Alpha Male" for men and a 6 being a transsexual who is likely to become suicidal or self-destructive if they don't transition.

Alpha males have very high degrees of testosterone, are highly aggressive, and very much like being in control of everything. The don't tolerate lack of respect and will fight when confronted or challenged. These are usually the men who will either become very aggressive with a loud low booming voice in the meeting, or will make very quiet and direct threats. This is common behavior among all mammals, with Alpha males taking control, becoming leaders, and bullying any who dare to challenge him. In some mammal groups, such as lions and wolves, a new Alpha male will kill the cubs of the previous Alpha. Many demand exclusive breeding rights over ALL of the women.

Within primates, there are Alpha males as well, but there are also Beta males, those who have accepted their lower status and submit to the Alpha. They often help raise the children, they engage in grooming, and because of their kindness to the other females, often get the chance to breed covertly.

Human evolution has lead to even more prominent roles for the Beta male. Beta males are often the intellectuals, scientists, engineers, bankers, and medical professionals. Early beta humans were probably the first witch doctors, healers, and herbalists. They could use their knowledge of herbs, poisons, and cures to make an abusive Alpha very sick, then heal him. Often these medicine men had been too small and weak to hunt, so they gathered with the women, yet still had the desire to be in control of their destiny.

Then there were the omega males. These were the "runt of the litter". Often, they survived by entertaining the rest of the pack or troupe. Careful observation has shown that Omega male wolves, apes, and humans often survive by clowning, entertaining, being almost absurdly subservient and submissive. In the theater, women's roles were often played by frail and skinny young men. Often singers were castrated at a very young age so they could portray women in the Opera. The infamous Don Giavanni was actually based on the true story of a Castrati who was also known as the greatest lover of his day, probably BECAUSE he didn't need to be satisfied sexually in the same way as most men.

Often, type 6 transsexuals are viewed as omega males, but much like Giovanni, they have their strengths as well. Many type 6 transsexuals absolutely hate being male, many have tried to mutilate themselves, crushing or otherwise damaging their testes. There are even cases where a type 6 transsexual has tried to castrate himself. Some have even gone to veterinarians to be castrated or gelded.

In the 1950s and 1960s, type 5 and type 6 transsexuals were often given electric-shock to "deprogram" them. Some were even tortured in "aversion therapy". Most needed the last resort, a Lobotomy. It was considered more medically acceptable to destroy a transsexual's brain than to remove his/her testicles.

Perhaps one of the reasons that there are so many beta and omega males is because so many Alpha males were killed off in the centuries of wars. Often, young Alpha boys would begin training as soldiers as soon as they could hold a wooden sword. They learned to attack, to perry, to hold the shield, and to inflict pain. This was easy when half the boys in town were beta or omega males and could easily be beaten. Fighting between Alphas was more fierce, but still not fatal. Unfortunately, once they were old enough to be chosen as soldiers, they were eager to go to war, and often eager to take the field among the ranks, often seeking the front line. Many only lasted seconds, others lasted a few minutes. The few who survived more than an hour had quickly lost their taste for hand-to-hand combat, and even those who survived the battle often gained rank, enabling them to choose a more strategic position, one less prone to risk. Of course, they would tell their tales of the hundreds that he killed on his worst day, being careful NOT to tell them how many of his friends and neighbors were being killed around him. After all, he needed troops who were eager to stand at the front line, so he would never have to do it again.

Meanwhile, the beta and omega boys usually kept their distance. Shooting arrows or slinging rocks. Some were so small and light they were only useful as messengers and couriers. This of course, gave them a keen insight into how battles were REALLY won, making it possible for them to advise generals as "Wizards" or "Wise men". Often, these wise men would also know poisons to make arrows more deadly, ways to use and accelerate fire, causing more damage. Many designed engines of war that they themselves could never have used, but could easily be used by a team of beta soldiers. Eventually we had deadly gas and germ warfare in world war 1 and atomic bombs in world war 2, and hydrogen bombs capable of killing every living person in a city the size of Tokyo or New York in just a few hours.

The result has been that Beta and Omega men have become more common, have bred, creating offspring who are more "feminine" than their Alpha counterparts.

By the same token, we have seen the emergence of women who are more violent and aggressive. In urban areas, many of the men have been taken off to jail, meaning that women have to protect themselves, their children, and their property. They are often more aggressive, more bossy, more violent, than their suburban sisters. These "Alpha Women" actually may have evolved in the western frontier of the United States. Often, women came over with their husbands and brothers to homestead. They had to cook, but they also had to help plow the fields, chop the wood, fetch the water, dig the well, and herd the animals. Often they were bigger and stronger than many of the men in the nearest large town near the railroad station. My great grandmother had thighs that were almost 30 inches around and pure muscle, and arms that were also large and muscular - from chopping wood and fetching water all those years. According to one story, she threw a man about 20 feet into a horse trough and told him that if he touched her again, his next landing wouldn't be so gentle.

These strong and powerful women, as well as the softer and gentler men, have blurred the lines between "masculine" and "feminine". This is probably a good thing. Imagine a city of 14 million people where all of the men were Alphas, violently attacking each other at the slightest provocation. Imagine all of those women being helpless and submissive to all those Alpha men, becoming widows and making their children orphans, depending on the next Alpha male who wanted them sexually. In some cities like San Francisco, there would be hundreds of minors and the only women in town were prostitutes. And even these women had to be ready to pull a derringer when the need arose.

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Originally Posted by JessM.

As several other posters have said, it's only our culture that tells us that men are good at some things and women are good at other things. Personally, I prefer if people leave words like "masculine" and "feminine" aside, and instead use more specific words:

- if you use soft, flowing movements then you are "graceful"
- if you take care of other people you are "nurturing"
- if you are good at clear thinking you are "logical"
- if you are rough and cruel you are "brutal"
- if you present a delicate, attractive appearance, you are "pretty"
- if you present a dignified, attractive appearance, you are "handsome"
- if you present a sexualized, attractive appearance, you are "sexy"

etc.

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Very.good points Jess ~ I like what you wrote here Jess, ad s person? Individual can be all of these and more regardless of gender / sex type. IMHO its much more than strict and extreme gender roles ? Its the birth child of binary ~ hetroecentric / homophobic thinking that boils up from binary logic (not just this subject) in and all things

The most basic, primitive, juvenile, sophmoric forms of logic.

Missing in all this? Imter-sex individuals such as those born not with just an XX or XY chromosomes, with extra chromosomes.

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Originally Posted by DebbieL

Kinsey rated people's sexual preference from 1 to 6 with 1 being totally straight (including fantasies) and 6 being totally gay.

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Of corse now that isn't used any longer. It was very primitive and naive but we needed a place to start

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Harry Benjamin used a similar scale, 1 being an "Alpha Male" for men and a 6 being a transsexual who is likely to become suicidal or self-destructive if they don't transition.

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and just shows why I think the Benjamin scale is BS. Why could not an "Alpha male" be a TS? Just because you are alpha doesn't make you a man.

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Alpha males have very high degrees of testosterone, are highly aggressive, and very much like being in control of everything. The don't tolerate lack of respect and will fight when confronted or challenged.

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CRAP I must be an alpha because trust me I am aggressive and I am in control and I will fight for what I think is right I know several GGs who fit that too. OK Let me just say that I think the whole Benjamin thing is BS No need to argue any of the other points. Out of date and no longer relevant. Even in animals this thinking is wrong. In lions the females run the pride. In wolves the leader is often an alpha female who runs the pack. edit: but maybe that is why TGs won't ever get to be on an equal playing field, because they are unwilling to stand up and fight. They just like being cast aside and treated like dirt. :idontknow:

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Originally Posted by JessM.

I just don't want all of us here putting any effort into reinforcing that rigid gender binary and insisting that's the way it has to be because of Nature and Biology.

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Perfect :)

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LOL. Humans are hierarchical, Paula. If you don't see women that way, just wait.

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perfect again

Its normal to have traits that are male and female its just some can't get their minds around the concept.
Trying to understand all this when you are just starting out can be a quite daunting task.
I got over trying to justify the hows and whys of it all and concentrate on the things that really matter to me and that apply to my situation.
I read Kinsey's material back in the 70's and I thought it was flaky and conjecture at best and nothing more than opinion.

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Originally Posted by JessM.

LOL. Humans are hierarchical, Paula. If you don't see women that way, just wait.

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Well, what do I know? It doesn't really matter so much I guess. I'm near the very bottom of all possible human hierarchies anyway. I'm trans - and I'm nothing.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

I'm trans - and I'm nothing.

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Decent humans see it differently, Paula. More like this:

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Even given the differences in our brains and bodies - we should all be treated equally.

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The trick is figuring out how to spend most of our time with decent people.

Wow . . . this is exactly why this gal does not like labels. This incessant need to pigeon hole one group of people into one neat category (feminine or masculine). :facepalm: I never got the concept . . . oh I get the theory, history, philosophy, biology but its raison d'etre, never made sense to me. I don't consider myself masculine as I would not even know how to define that any more than I consider myself feminine or could define that. I try to live my life as a good person, show empathy, respect others, help others. Do I get mad, jealous, catty, angry, hostile? You bet but anyone can given the right circumstances.

I have been in situations where I have seen the worse humanity has to offer (I will spare you the details). Was it all men doing these things? I'll give you one guess and "yes" is not the right answer. Humans are capable of the whole range of emotion and to attribute them to one gender is egregious. With emotions come action so a hostile person will most likely reach out and lay a smack down on someone. A empathetic person is more likely to act kindly towards others. However, one gender does not lay claim to any one emotion or the actions that go with it. I knew a guy, manly man extraordinaire who never batted an eye when his buddies got hit or killed (he was just being stoic, steely, gritty, manly . . . whatever). This same guy broke down into an emotional sobbing wreck when a dog he was feeding wandered into a minefield and was killed. Did he suddenly throw off the mantle of masculinity and become feminine? Nope, he was demonstrating humanity and it can be a hard task master.

I stopped trying to refer to myself as feminine (funny thing for a cross dresser who goes out dressed as woman) but if truth be told I have no concept of femininity only a societal definition and we all know how great societal definitions and sterotypes work out. When I am out, dressed girl or boy I am me. I experience the whole range of emotions and would react no differently boy or girl. I don't suddenly put on my guy hat and find a pipe to plumb or a car to fix. Likewise I don't put on a dress and suddenly decide I want to take up needlepoint or cross-stitch. My habits, hobbies, emotions, actions, reactions have never changed . . . perhaps I am weird. I just don't believe in either concept . . . we are humans that is all. The only difference is biological.

So endeth the rant . . . sorry.

Hugs

Isha

Isha, I'm curious. Why do you need to wear women's clothing if you don't feel any different either way?

So this thread was titled:
The nature of being femme (GGs also welcome)

Asking cross dressers about being feminine...ironic
Allowing women to also join the topic... more ironic
Women ARE feminine and are unable to be able to explain it...super ironic

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Originally Posted by Jenniferathome

So this thread was titled:
The nature of being femme (GGs also welcome)

Asking cross dressers about being feminine...ironic
Allowing women to also join the topic... more ironic
Women ARE feminine and are unable to be able to explain it...super ironic

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I'm not sure I understand what's ironic about any of that. This is a forum, at least in part about gender. Exploring what makes us perceived as being either masculine or feminine seems like a legitimate discussion to me.

Not all women are feminine, btw. I know some very, very masculine ones. The ones who are generally perceived as feminine are generally unable to explain why people perceive them as they do. I know, because I ask all of them.

This may seem like a fairly silly and academic exercise to many on this forum, but it matters to me a great deal because I spend a fair amount of my time trying to understand this stuff, because I'd like to pass, because *I am* a woman. Convincing the outside world of this is another matter, though. So each time I'm misgendered, I like to try to understand what I did wrong. (I also know that to some of us here, each such failure is simply proof to them that I'm simply some poor, deluded man.)

As I said, this may seem pointless to you. You, and many others here, are male-identified, and cross dressing in public is not such a serious matter for you - if you are really having a bad time of it that day, you can pack it in, switch back to boy-mode, and take care of business. I have no such luxury, so this stuff is important to me.

I'm ridiculed when I get it wrong sometimes - many of us are. Ridicule isn't so bad - some of us are actually attacked when we get it wrong. That's a lot worse, and so questions on the nature of being femme are of rather critical importance to us trans women. Often they are questions of dignity or safety. I know many in society disagree that we deserve such considerations, but I'd hope that on this forum, most of us could understand why we'd want them.

Hi,

Feminine ( noun )

Gender that refers chiefly ( not exclusively to females or to objects classified as female .

Feminine ( adjective )

associated with women and not men.
of grammatical gender .
befitting or characteristic of a woman especially a ...MATURE... woman,

I am feminine because i am a female just not in my facial features, though for some im not included as a GG, out side of some forums i am just not in the sence as how its used here,

because of being born different that then changes that then changes how people percive who i am , so the ? of what am i male or female, even with my background im accepted as female, though in fairness for understanding i dont have a sex there is none, no sex organs male or female as would be used termed or seen and for gender again none,

So that leaves where do i fit i dont not really as a binery and iv crossed both genders in one quick hit,

Now how im recived is very interesting because theres this fusion of both male and female and cant be seperated, that leaves myself wide open to people in how they perceive this well and truly mixed human being i belive most have accepted im just a normal female who has grown into a very mature woman , i was quite a grown up mature for my age from quite young .

this time round from 50 on the changes that have taken place were to take place only at the right time, as a part of my growing .

i know i have opened many 1000's of peoples minds along the way, in fact 10,000 of thousands

wether you belive me or not does not matter i know from the feed back i'v had from many people of what i did was a door open for them to see them selfs and given them a way to carry forward thier belive in them selfs that they to could see thier lives as where they need to be, or will get to where they can be,

Paula ,

Im a masculine woman a female as it is, not complete as most know and my many friends they allso know my inability to accept my femininity , i know its there i just cant get hold of it , its like so far above my reach and to hard of an issue to comprehend,

No i dont pass never will, though that does not bother me , i can still go any where, and do my public relations work that does not stop what i do, hey i know my disadvantages i work around them , we all have disadvantages just remember we do have advantages as well ,

We just need to see them grab hold of and work with them instead, im no different than many other women i have body issues plus a few others quite a few , any way , and no i cant just put them aside they govern my life in many ways part of how i was born,

I just will not let that rule my life, pity you not meet me,

i dont have to convince any one i never tryed, the only convincing was could i accept that others would accept who i am , those involved with myself is in the 1000;s do i need any more convincing , ...no....

Paula ,

I had the advantage of being female ( ill use in part ) because i dont wont people to think oh your a bloody female any way so where's your bundle of issues, no i had other issues well still have some , so what im trying to say is i did not find things on a silver plate i still had to go through things to get where i am now, And my acceptance,

And just a fun bit , id love to go to my county where some of my history is you know what id fit in very nicely , why because many of our women were hard working very stropy looking Frauen

yet lovely to be around and down to earth my looks would not matter a bit,

And to the some extent my friends here in Waimate are so lovely and its so neat to be with them,

...noeleena...

Right now I'm concerned with the Nature of Being ME!!
I don't like scales (can't sing and refuse to step on the other kind) but if I had to put a number to it on yours I'm a 3.

I'm a GG, and have been criticized for things such as not growing my nails, not caring about"girly" stuff my entire life. I'd rather spend my money on art supplies than a manicure! I've been assumed to be a lesbian when affectionate with other GG GFs. I'm quite feminine in appearance, and although always dated guys, have never been ashamed of my attraction to all kinds of people. My point is, there are no rules other than those of(mainstream) society, and we all know how many lies we're told...I am still feminine when I'm building a fire, or baking a souffle...or am I? Ha ha!

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

I'm not sure I understand what's ironic about any of that. This is a forum, at least in part about gender. Exploring what makes us perceived as being either masculine or feminine seems like a legitimate discussion to me.

Not all women are feminine, btw. I know some very, very masculine ones. The ones who are generally perceived as feminine are generally unable to explain why people perceive them as they do. I know, because I ask all of them.

This may seem like a fairly silly and academic exercise to many on this forum, but it matters to me a great deal because I spend a fair amount of my time trying to understand this stuff, because I'd like to pass, because *I am* a woman. Convincing the outside world of this is another matter, though. So each time I'm misgendered, I like to try to understand what I did wrong. (I also know that to some of us here, each such failure is simply proof to them that I'm simply some poor, deluded man.)

As I said, this may seem pointless to you. You, and many others here, are male-identified, and cross dressing in public is not such a serious matter for you - if you are really having a bad time of it that day, you can pack it in, switch back to boy-mode, and take care of business. I have no such luxury, so this stuff is important to me.

I'm ridiculed when I get it wrong sometimes - many of us are. Ridicule isn't so bad - some of us are actually attacked when we get it wrong. That's a lot worse, and so questions on the nature of being femme are of rather critical importance to us trans women. Often they are questions of dignity or safety. I know many in society disagree that we deserve such considerations, but I'd hope that on this forum, most of us could understand why we'd want them.

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PaulaQ, you explain things beautifully. Being a GG, it is hard to explain what makes a real person feminine (as opposed to just a dictionary description). As a woman, I sometimes resent the role I'm supposed to assume. I respect you so much...You and your journey. Sorry...I know that doesn't help much!!!

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Originally Posted by BernieGF

As a woman, I sometimes resent the role I'm supposed to assume.

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Thanks BernieGF - I know that many, many genetic women, both on this forum, and in the world at large, resent the roles they are forced into playing. I have watched this, with much sorrow, in my wife, my sister, and my mother, and nearly every other genetic woman I've known.

I think this is one of the things that makes so many of you so skeptical of someone like me, or even more so of the male identified CDs on this forum. I mean, why in the HELL would anyone want the abuse women frequently take? For the CDs, in many instances, they can pick and choose just the parts they find to be fun, and switch back to male privilege when the going gets tough. That has to cause at least a little resentment, over and above all the other myriad issues being a CD brings to the table.

In my case, it's a matter of life and death. If you held a gun to my forehead, and told me "Get back into your suit and revert back to living as a man, or die right this second!!!", I'd calmly tell you "Kill me then, and be done with it - it would be a mercy." (Err, not to imply you'd do that! You seem very nice!)

Being a woman is no picnic, and that's an understatement, but for me, being forced to live as a man is a fate worse than death.

So anyway, these kinds of topics are a matter of some import to me.

PaulaQ, I understand what you're saying. You are brave, and I really do admire you. My"plight" is simple annoyance (i get over the resentment by doing what I want). I get away with being a "B" and that's the end of that..

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Originally Posted by BernieGF

...I am still feminine when I'm building a fire, or baking a souffle...or am I? Ha ha!

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Yes we are! I'm still feminine when I'm wearing old clothes and doing home building projects, when I'm riding the lawn mower, and when I'm replacing the battery in a car. My femininity is not affected by what I wear and what I do. I feel comfortable in my body and what it can do, and this is what defines femininity for me. I know who I am.

I think a lot of people in this forum confuse being "girly" with being feminine. In my opinion being girly (pink clothes, long nails, etc) is just a style among many other styles/types that women can be: athletic, artistic, goth, business, biker-chick, punk, and countless others.

I'm very fortunate. At no time in my life was I ever made to feel as if I had to dress or be a certain way. So I have a huge range of options, just as most women that I know do. We can dress up to the nines when we want to, and we can get all gritty and do what needs to be done. :)

To the OP: I like what Jess said. I don't believe that human emotion or even reactions can be characterized as being feminine or masculine.

What about communications style - do you think there is a difference in the ways men and women communicate?
What about problem solving styles, any differences there?