The downside of crossdressing...conflicted in our relationships with GG's and SO's?

It seems that most of us here continually wax poetic about wanting to get in touch with our feminine sides, living the "female experience" first-hand, and emulating women in every way possible. Those of us who are out and about are also typically obsessed with either "passing" (usually a long shot) or at least "blending in".

At the same time, we profess our profound admiration for women in general, see them as having desirable traits so often missing among our male brethren (empathy, nurturing personalities, ability to freely express their emotions, placing a high value on relationships along with a sense of community i.e.the ""sisterhood", etc), and in general see them as superior, more developed creatures compared to the knuckle-dragging Neanderthals (a.k.a. "jocks", "alpha males") that we so often have to butt heads with in our male lives.

We also desperately wish that our wives and SO's would accept and appreciate this feminine side to our personalities and if not support -at least tolerate - our crossdressing more, and not be totally freaked out about it. Some of us here appear to have reached this state of Nirvana with their families and partners, some are on their way, and for others, well, - ain't no way that's ever going to happen...

But with all that admiration, and maybe to some degree - even fetishizing - this version of femininity that we have created in our minds, have we lost something in the process?

Yes, I consider myself to be 100% heterosexual. Yes, I am physically attracted to women, as well as emotionally. But it's come to the point where on first noticing an attractive woman, I am immediately drawn to what she is wearing, her make up, and overall presentation, and my initial gut reaction is to ask myself how I would look in that outfit, and if it would suit me as well as it does her?

A "real" man in a similar situation would likely be first drawn to the size/shape of such a woman's breasts, her rear end, how short her skirt was (or how tight her pants), how much cleavage she was displaying, and how "sexy" she looked overall. He might even notice her hair and make up and think that they were "nice", but all of the subtleties surrounding how that total "look" was created would be totally lost on him.

Yes, the "male" in me gets to that point of sexual attraction in due course as well, but my initial focus invariably is how the woman presents herself overall, how that compares with "Leslie's" usual presentation, and what, if anything, I could learn from that.

Maybe this is some version of the "pink fog", and I'm sure others here share similar sentiments. Still, it worries me...

Am I starting to become too obsessed with my crossdressing? Is it starting to affect my view of women in a way that I am not totally comfortable with? Am I beginning to objectify them in a way that is not too dissimilar to what our uber testosterone-fueled brethren typically do? This saddens and shames me, but at the same time, it is what it is, and it takes a concerted effort on my part to suppress these feelings and not react initially in such an emotionally shallow way.

More to the point, are we sometimes subconsciously "competing" with our wives and SO's to see if we can be just as "feminine" or "girly" as we perceive them to be (or in those cases where the partners are not particularly "girly" in a "Barbie" sort of way, leave them behind in the dust as we pursue our own version of "femininity")? Do our partners sense this, and is that one of the main reasons why our crossdressing is such a huge turn-off for some of them?

Do other here feel the same way sometimes? Thoughts, anyone?

Leslie I too felt guilty the other day as I was driving through my town, I got to a figure of 1 in 10 GGs that I wouldn't want to look like, I would sooner be a guy in a dress ! Where was I coming from thinking like this, in my mind I felt I could look better than 1 in 10 !
As a hetro guy I didn't find them attractive but when dressed who am I attractive to ? Not the majority of GGs and not to the majority of gays, I'm really only attractive to myself, all this effort is just for me ! Back to to age old question, WHY DO WE CROSSDRESS ????

It's human to want to get one's role right. If you are learning an unfamiliar role (as we all did in puberty, and as people do when they move to a new culture), it's natural to obsess a bit about getting the details right.

For people comfortable with their role, the interest goes away. And if we talk to someone who is currently obsessed with figuring out every detail, they seem shallow.

Try to cut yourself some slack for your focus, and cut your partner some slack as well.

Eye tracking studies show that it is women who spend the most time looking at women's breasts and cleavage, which I have seen described as "subconsciously comparing them to her own".

These days I find it difficult to look at a woman's breasts without assessing how breasts in her shape and proportions would look on me, and categorizing them according to what I would like for myself. "Too small. Too basketball. Hmmm, I like how those look on her, but... ah yes, my calculation is that those would project 6 inches on me, and that would make me look like a terrible breast fetishist and I sure would get stared at... Oh yes, those ones, those would look great on me, so now let's get measuring proportions so I know what size to tell the plastic surgeon..."

teresa. makes a great point. i find it rather selfish of myself, but, i also dress to be my ideal view of what a lady looks like, and, i am my dream lady, when dressed. I can see how this would be very detrimental to a relationship, with a GG. But, sadly, i see myself as Alice, far more attractive than the majority of GG's i see today. Few wear dresses or skirts. many have serious overweight problems. But, must llok on the inside, too.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

But with all that admiration, and maybe to some degree - even fetishizing - this version of femininity that we have created in our minds, have we lost something in the process?

A "real" man in a similar situation would likely be first drawn to the size/shape of such a woman's breasts, her rear end, how short her skirt was (or how tight her pants), how much cleavage she was displaying, and how "sexy" she looked overall. He might even notice her hair and make up and think that they were "nice", but all of the subtleties surrounding how that total "look" was created would be totally lost on him.

Yes, the "male" in me gets to that point of sexual attraction in due course as well, but my initial focus invariably is how the woman presents herself overall, how that compares with "Leslie's" usual presentation, and what, if anything, I could learn from that.

Am I beginning to objectify them in a way that is not too dissimilar to what our uber testosterone-fueled brethren typically do? This saddens and shames me, but at the same time, it is what it is, and it takes a concerted effort on my part to suppress these feelings and not react initially in such an emotionally shallow way.

More to the point, are we sometimes subconsciously "competing" with our wives and SO's to see if we can be just as "feminine" or "girly" as we perceive them to be (or in those cases where the partners are not particularly "girly" in a "Barbie" sort of way, leave them behind in the dust as we pursue our own version of "femininity")? Do our partners sense this, and is that one of the main reasons why our crossdressing is such a huge turn-off for some of them?

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1. How do you know you aren't just really feminine? There are very feminine women. Why not really femme CDs? Also, I think there is a natural tendency to overcompensate for being male. And finally, sure most of us sexualize this, and if we're going to do this, we want to feel sexy.

2. Sure, you are objectifying her - you are a guy, that's what guy's do. Don't believe me? Go sit in a gay bar for a while, and just watch what happens, as an experiment in social science, and see if you don't see just as much evidence of men objectifying other men. Guy's are wired to be kinda shallow. Sorry. :(

3. There are a variety of reasons our partners are uncomfortable with this. Women don't objectify to the extent men do, typically, but they still do - your spouse may LIKE your hairy chest, and be quite unhappy when you shave it off because she finds it so attractive! Some women likely do feel insecure about their bodies or their appearances, especially if their CD SO presents very well. Some women likely feel insecure about their role in the relationship - after all, CDing opens up questions about our gender, relationships, and roles that straight society is BADLY equipped to even discuss. Most of us base our relationships on templates we've seen, in our lives, in the media, in books - everybody knows what a monogamous heterosexual relationship is supposed to look like. Until the guy puts on a dress! That opens up a Pandora's box of questions most of us - often especially including the CD aren't prepared to discuss.

I know this is kind of a taboo to discuss, but there is no doubt in my mind that a few, not most, but a few, folks on this forum look MUCH better than quite a few genetic women. If that's your situation, then hell yeah you can intimidate your wife if she feels very insecure with her body. (Also note, you probably can't do this in a fair fight - if your wife puts the kind of time and skill into her presentation as some of you do, she'll almost certainly look a lot better than you ever thought about. Most women, at least in the states, don't go to nearly this kind of effort on a regular basis though.)

Just for full disclosure - I tend to notice other women's presentation only if it's especially well done, which it often isn't. Although attractive people will get my attention, I am really all about personality and chemistry if I'm going to be in a relationship. Looks are down the list.

I know what you mean Leslie.

I don't think this causes any issues with my wife. She just calls me a woman by way of a backward put down and we carry on the conversation.

I do have to stop myself at work sometimes, when I casually notice something that most men would never spot, new earrings or a new blouse on a female work colleague. I've learnt it's fine to mention the new shoes or be a little sexist about a summer dress, but woe betide if you mention the change of nail polish and be sure inquisitive looks of how did a man notice that, is he flirting with me will follow.

The other place this gets me: is driving around in a car full of male work colleagues. We are mainly ex-military, so they're all playing spot the rack on her, while I'm thinking, nice outfit.

Leslie: Your still a "real man" with the exception that your now old enough to know that spotting an attractive female does not lead to an intimate encounter with her. That knowledge allows you to no longer just lust for her body but to pay closer attention to everything about her. Everything that makes her so attractive to you then try to incorporate those things ( be it clothing makeup hairstyle shoes or the cleavage or rear end)into your existence as Leslie.

I believe it is very likely that some of us do indeed compete with our SO's to see if we can APPEAR as feminine or girly as they do. That is what a lot of us enjoy the most( appearing as feminine as possible). And yes our partners do sense this. My wife readily admits there is no way for her to look as good in a lot of what I wear as I do UNLESS she constricted he body in ways she would not be comfortable with and wore what she calls stage makeup. If we were both still in our 20's or 30's this might not be the case but I didn't dress fully back then for it to be an issue.

Teresa: At the end of the day it is for ourselves that we justify the effort we put into how dress

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

I know this is kind of a taboo to discuss, but there is no doubt in my mind that a few, not most, but a few, folks on this forum look MUCH better than quite a few genetic women. If that's your situation, then hell yeah you can intimidate your wife if she feels very insecure with her body. (Also note, you probably can't do this in a fair fight - if your wife puts the kind of time and skill into her presentation as some of you do, she'll almost certainly look a lot better than you ever thought about. Most women, at least in the states, don't go to nearly this kind of effort on a regular basis though.)

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Very well said Paula you posted while I was writing my post and was sort of what I was trying to say

Leslie - maybe here's the advantage of closeted CDers...

Provided that one can maintain sufficient partitioning in ones own mind, I don't feel any internal conflict and because nothing is known outside of the closet, the only opportunities for any friction are classic male-female ones ("Are you checking her out..?" "Yes dear, you know we do that..." ;)) - but in the closet I think I'd give a nod to Teresa's view, which is that for me this is a very internalised process and feeling... other than sharing with you ladies, of course... :D

Who knows the why? of what we do... I suspect there are different flavours and motives which lead to subtly different behaviours, and that may also affect the way we view relationships.. I've long held the view that there's something a touch narcissistic and selfish about what we do - but there are worse crimes against humanity than that! At the end of it all, most of us are still just DiDs for all our obsessing, or makeup skill, or anything...

Katey x

I gave up the competition game a long time ago.

Been there done that and looked convincing as a female.

It's all down hill now for me and I just get on with it and encourage those that look good to try it out.

Still look at women photogenically and for their attractiveness.

Look at some of the younger fashions they are wearing with some envy, some are still drop dead gorgeous. :)

@Beverly - the older you get, the easier it becomes to pass, because most women's hormone levels drop with age, masculinizing them, while most men's features feminize a little for the same reasons.

What you described seems very natural to me. Young girls compete and share clothes all the time. "Who wore it better" is a popular game in the fashion world.

I think a lot of it depends on the type of personality your SO has as well. As many learn over the years, different types fit better together for long term relationships. I had the best luck with GG's who had very male personalities.

My last SO was too similar to me. We went pillow shopping once and there was only one "velvet fluff" pillow left. As we drove home, we began to argue over who was going to get the velvet fluff. Two princesses? I don't think so!

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

...More to the point, are we sometimes subconsciously "competing" with our wives and SO's to see if we can be just as "feminine" or "girly" as we perceive them to be (or in those cases where the partners are not particularly "girly" in a "Barbie" sort of way, leave them behind in the dust as we pursue our own version of "femininity")? Do our partners sense this, and is that one of the main reasons why our crossdressing is such a huge turn-off for some of them?

Do other here feel the same way sometimes? Thoughts, anyone?

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I think you are overanalyzing and generalizing too much. Cross dressing is just plain odd. While I will be the first to state that it is IN us and I firmly believe genetic, that makes it no less odd. Why would our wives think it is not "odd"? I can't believe any woman would think we are competition in being feminine. They are feminine and we are guys. Cross dressing is a turn off because it is odd and starkly in contrast to what any woman would reasonably expect in a man. That notwithstanding, women seem to have a capacity to overlook this oddity as long as it does not possess the cross dresser.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

More to the point, are we sometimes subconsciously "competing" with our wives and SO's to see if we can be just as "feminine" or "girly" as we perceive them to be (or in those cases where the partners are not particularly "girly" in a "Barbie" sort of way, leave them behind in the dust as we pursue our own version of "femininity")? Do our partners sense this, and is that one of the main reasons why our crossdressing is such a huge turn-off for some of them?

Do other here feel the same way sometimes? Thoughts, anyone?

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I'm reading this somewhat differently than Jennifer. :)

IF you or any other CDer subconsciously feel envious of your wives' (or other women's) femininity, and you forego appreciating them (in ways that men appreciate women) in order to approximate their femininity or pursue your own version of it, then yes, this would be a turn off for many women.

There's the classic example of a couple going out to a fancy event. The wife comes downstairs dressed to the nines and looking fantastic. Her CD husband can't take his eyes off her, but instead of appreciatively saying "Wow, you look great" (in a way that lets her know he wants her), he instead says "How I wish I could wear what you're wearing and look like you". This would devastate me if I were in the wife's shoes.

It isn't useful to try to pigeonhole everyone, males or females. Some males can't keep their eyes off of women's breasts or other attributes while others pay them no mind at all. Same goes for females. Some are obsessed, others are not. The obsessed ones buy a lot of luxury cars for plastic surgeons.

Do I pay more attention to women's clothing than the average man? Of course I do! I'm on a steep learning curve and I'm really interested in what GGs are currently wearing so I can dress appropriately.

I'm certainly not in competition with my wife. She was holding the trophy before I ever got into the race. We each dress ourselves as we wish and have different fashion goals and interests.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

There's the classic example of a couple going out to a fancy event. The wife comes downstairs dressed to the nines and looking fantastic. Her CD husband can't take his eyes off her, but instead of appreciatively saying "Wow, you look great" (in a way that lets her know he wants her), he instead says "How I wish I could wear what you're wearing and look like you". This would devastate me if I were in the wife's shoes.

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I'm probably as guilty of this as anyone. When I have to attend an event in drab where women are dressed nicely I feel bad that I can't do the same. However, when Mimi and I go out to such events she always looks wonderful, no matter what I am wearing. My desire for self-expression doesn't change my perception of her.

On the question of "competition" --

Do you think that lesbians compete with each other to be the most beautiful or sexiest one in the relationship? Do you have no heart, no empathy, no love for your partner? How can anyone stay in a relationship that's a competition? Do you also evaluate whether you're smarter than your partner? Whether you're funnier than your partner? Better at cleaning the house? A better parent?

My view: focus on what you love about your partner; admire them for where they shine. And focus on being the best you that you can be. But for crying out loud don't try to out-do your own partner (in any field). Unless you both are obsessively competitive and the competition is a fun game to both of you.

(I should note that of course people in a partnership will tend to specialize: one person cleans the shower while the other person does the taxes... But if you're spending mental energy feeling smug about your own superiority, rather than proud of your partner's accomplishments, then there's something wrong with the relationship.)

Not in the least. I don't hold a romanticized or idealized notion of femininity or womanhood. I grew up with hard working farm women who struggled to feed and clothe a family and balance a budget...with little time or opportunity to put on airs. I've worked with single mothers who struggle to do the same things on their own. Not to mention both my first wife and present wife.

I don't even remotely objectify a woman by taking note of what shes wearing and speculating on whether it might work for me. Noticing the clothes, make up, hair and shoes really in no way gets in the way of noticing the physical attributes of an attractive woman....that's hard wired and automatic. And no, I'm not subconsciously or consciously competing with GGs.

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Originally Posted by Eryn

However, when Mimi and I go out to such events she always looks wonderful, no matter what I am wearing. My desire for self-expression doesn't change my perception of her.

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That's wonderful! :)

I was addressing Leslie's concerns, however, the ones she elaborated on in the middle and at the end of her post. We had a well attended thread about this very subject and most of the respondents said they didn't look at women appreciatively the way that other men do, they looked at them either to learn, or to compare or contrast their fashion sense, or to imagine themselves with their bodies and in their outfits.

thats not a downside to crossdressing......thats a DOWNSIDE to dating or being married to women......ahhh to be single and free.......
#99problems

Hi Leslie, It kinda sounds like you were describing me, When I see a well dressed beautiful lady
I like to take in the big picture then start dissecting the whole package and making mental notes
on different aspects of her outfit , hair and makeup.
The next time that I dress I will try to duplicate some of her features .

My wife once remarked to me that she thought that it was my dressing that made me an excellent Husband.
She said she new of no other man that was as caring and thought full as me. All of her friends where
envious of her because of me. She would have her friends complaining that their husbands where never as
thoughfull as I was to her.
See I loved that Girl to no end; I am glad she is at piece in heaven.
Rader

I find this quite sad for both the GG's and the heterosexual crossdressers. Yes, in my mind you are missing out on something by viewing us this way. You're seeing us as an outfit to put on, as competition, and not as an attractive woman you wish to be intimate with. I can't imagine seeing a sexy man and wishing instead that I could look like him, maybe even thinking I could look better than him yet still feeling attracted to him. How does such a thought even happen? It's as though your heterosexuality has been internalized.

Anyway, I admire you for contemplating all this, Leslie. It says a lot about the person you are that you're trying to see this clearly. I doubt there's much you can do though, given this is probably just another weird human trait with little logic behind it. I hope you can find a way to live with this without feeling badly of yourself. You didn't ask for this and maybe one day they'll be some answers as to why some men love women yet also want to look like them - if for no other reason than those of us GG's still struggling with this will have scientific proof that our partners are not intentionally being a pain in the a** :)

Hi Leslie,

I believe things are getting a bit overanalyzed here with all the replies.

Firstly, you do state that after admiring the woman's clothing/make-up/accessories and whatnot "the male part of you gets to the point of sexual attraction". So let's decompose a bit. The CDing side of you is attracted to the clothes . . . "Hmm, how would I look in this?" So what's wrong with that?:confused: I do the same thing when I see a guy wearing something I like "Hmm how would I look in that?" I have the thought then move on because I am not attracted to men in a sexual way. I can admire the clothes but I don't have to admire the guy (he could be a jerk, a great guy . . . I don't particularly care).

Now back to the woman in great clothes. After you have processed the clothing then you look at the woman and think "Hmm . . . now there is a sexy woman (or not)". This is a normal heterosexual male response. Just because you processed the clothes first doesn't mean you think less of the woman. CDing is salient in your life so of course you are going to look at the clothes. You are attracted to women so naturally you are going to look at her in that light as well. This all seems normal given the situation IMHO. :)

I don't see anything wrong with appreciating the whole presentation, clothing and sexuality. How you get there is just processing. Men do not have to go through life lusting over breasts and rear ends . . . it is called maturing/growing up and appreciating women. As a CDer, I can still love what a woman is wearing and dare say think "I would love to wear that" but I can still respect and admire her for who she is. :)

Hugs

Isha

Dear Leslie ...I think what you have analyzed was very accurate to what I'm going thru ,,,and all is true ...but I feel in great advantage to use the two modes to our advantage ,,,Yes I feel the sexual arousing when I see a sexy lady but at the same time I turn my feminine mode to analyze her hair and cloths ,,,The only difference is that I feel in a big advantage of both worlds ....The only feeling of shame is that to be caught because the world will be very cruel to our judgment ,,,What if no social worries of being caught if you just wear tight skirt with boobs hanging around and just walk to the streets with no reaction from anybody ,,,then we will do our Cds with no shame ,,,matter of fact we will strive to do more than what women do ,,,and that is exactly what other crossdressers have done once they mastered the social ambiguities in life ..

yes some of us are not married to open people and we must endure or possibly lose careers,kids ect

love your answer rian

I don't seem to have this conflict. My particular style of cross dressing, which is ultra femme, has no relationship to what I'm attracted to in women. The women I tend to be attracted to don't wear makeup, dresses or high heels. They're not exactly what you would call butch, but maybe a little more butch than femme and more butch in attitude than looks. When I see a woman that's attractive to me, I don't want to be her. I've had that feeling before, so I know what it's about but I think I was just confused. My poor wife only has to scratch her head and wonder what it's all about. She doesn't have to feel like she's in competition with anything.

I never feel shame for being cd - admire my wifes good looks and style and see no need to "compete" with her (why?) but do envy and wonder "what if" when I see a particularly attractive GG of any age but don't want to do anything other than expierence the feminine side and express that part of self.

Thank you for all the insightful responses to my post, ladies. There is much food for thought here.

Maybe I have over-analyzed this whole issue too much, as some have suggested. Seems that the brain is always doing a "reality" check" when deep-seated feelings start trying to take over... :eek: :o

I have been told that I have a lot empathy and that I care about people, (I work in the health service). So what does that make me? It makes me human.

The vast majority of us have the ability to empathise with our fellow humans, is not an exclusive famine trait. I know that if you tell a woman that she looks great in that dress she's wearing she'll take it as a compliment.

And if you watch women you'll find some hide themselves in baggy clothes and some pose, with everything in-between. Just like men really. You have 'macho' women and 'effeminate' men.

So the best thing you can do is be yourself, whether your in drab or en-femme, don't over analyse it, just enjoy it. :)

Leslie yes I see what you mean, in that whenever I'm out shopping for clothes with my wife who doesn't accept it's hard to watch her look at cute stuff and not help me look for things I would like.
The thing is I enjoy helping my wife choose clothes for her but it's hard not to look for me and ask her can I try this on for me.
I hate feeling that way and it seems like it happens to often.

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Originally Posted by sandra-leigh

Eye tracking studies show that it is women who spend the most time looking at women's breasts and cleavage, which I have seen described as "subconsciously comparing them to her own".

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Most likely, simply weighing out her ability to compete with the other woman for male attention, which will also determine where she exists within her female 'clique'. Lots of press had been made over the years about how women choose what they wear based on how other women will see her, interpret her attractiveness as well as where she stands in the 'pecking order' of beauty. Just like men always have some sort of idea who is potentially the best fighter in any group, women always believe they know which girl is the one most men would pick for a mate. This is instinctive; we don't think about it for more than a few seconds before we make a determination where we rate vs a competitor for mating and thus, reproduction.

If I see a gg in a nice outfit I will take notice of it. Other times I may see a gg wearing an outfit and think I would like to get one like it for me. Also I can admire an outfit on a gg and yet know that that it is not something I would wear.

I do not find myself competing with gg's. I compete with myself in always trying to improve the way I look.

Also I can notice the bad, like one time I saw a woman and thought what a terrible makup job.

I do like to observe women in public places so I can pick up ideas on how to be more feminine.