'Interests' changing

I'm swapping threads here to avoid taking over another girl's topic...

I stated/asked:

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I'm kind of raging at the partners (those who promised 'in sickness or in health, for richer or poorer') who have an issue with your identity...If you still adhere to the values and priorities you did while 'en-boots' as 'en-heels', WTF does it matter?

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JessM:

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How about if your priorities change, so you talk about nails and clothes and makeup all the time? I have no interest in those things, and neither did he when we married.

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Do you/we really change our interests when we let 'her' out of the box?

Is it an 'added' thing, or does it take away from your core identity?

Does it 'take over'? Is it somehow a 'bait and switch?

- MM

I personally am no different as there is no "her" to let out of the box. I have a mixed personality which uses triats of both sides of me in my daily life. I reflect certain aspects in how I dress, act, think and react daily. I will do things some days as the mood takes me (such as wear nail polish to work) other times I can go weeks without touching it.

My wife is aware of how I have combined aspects of what I see (but she does not) of a split in personalities between male and female to create a "whole" me who is the person that is seen daily. My core identity is me, that has never changed - I understand it more now than I ever did but the essence of who I am remains. I balance my sides by wearing female clothes daily, even at work. Today is a casual day, I have female jeans, underwear, a comfort top, female t-shirt and over-shirt on. My cowboy ankle boots are women's. This does not change me because I would wear this out at the weekend with my wife as well.


I suspect for others it may be a case of letting inhibitions go and have the freedom of expression more than they can otherwise due to social reasons. But for me personally, I am no different whether I wear a full set of male or female clothes or I have nail polish on or not. I am me and noone else.

Hey MM,

I'm kinda with you and against at the same time... Yes, Donna was not part of the package when we married, was hidden away for a lot of the relationship and is not something the SO is totally overjoyed with. I even spent some time in a DADT style of existence... But, as you allude, she's part of the package now and a relationship should be strong enough to overcome adversity. There are many things that can happen that can put pressure on a relationship... I've seen a couple separate over the birth a handicapped child, he being 'unable to cope'. Now there was a relationship destined to fail!!!

I have been lucky enough to have a mature and loving partner who has grown to accept this part of me, but by the same token, I realise that there is an impact and I'm not 'in her face' with it. Common sense from each side can, and should overcome this. Yes she has set a few ground rules basically around her not wanting to be surprised or embarrassed and these can be easily accommodated. All part of the give and take that a mature relationship needs to thrive. Donna is now a part of the family and is, according to my SO, her best girlfriend.

I do, however know people that do not want to even broach the subject, fearing that it would just be a bridge too far... Whilst I do no agree totally with secrets and deception, there are times and reasons where it may be the best solution... DADT can also fall into this 'best solution' model and, if it can assist I'm the maintenance of a relationship, then it has value. Who knows, those individuals may also be lucky enough to have an SO like my wife who is willing to learn, accept and even come to appreciate the positives. I'm not so quick to discount...

Just my two cents worth.

Donna

I'm fortunate enough not to have to deal with a SO.

However, it IS widely reported at this watering hole [by both CDers and/or their SOs] that "give a CDer an inch and they will almost always take a mile."

Shame on the CDer for this and also the SO to allow this. Being in Love does not demand that we let our partners "be themselves" and/or break any agreements/boundaries or limits.

I think it's often forgotten here that for most with SOs [widely reported] it's not/seldom enough to "just' crossdress at home. They want at least a few female "tells". Forms, wigs, shapewear etc.

No Rocket Scientist needed to guess that few women are going to be OK with it and that far more would likely tolerate it if it was ONLY the clothes. It's also highly likely they would have less problem with flats and granny dresses than with 6" spiky heels and minis.

Please note.. I kind of laid a trap (inform Admiral Akbar immediately!!)

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If you still adhere to the values and priorities

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vs

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How about if your priorities change,

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Which is exactly my point. We can be who we are, without renouncing who we *were*.

We *both* live in here sweeties. No harm, foul or conflict. I love my boy features as hard as I do my girly ones. There isn't a reason to *choose*. We are lucky, we get the chance to sample BOTH,

<3

- MM

Hi MM,

For me the person has never changed . . . just the presentation. The activities I engage in "en boy" or "en girl" are the same ones I have engaged in all my life. Yes, I spend time putting on make-up and dressing up "en girl" but then again I spend time shaving and dressing "en boy". Yes my wife and I discuss nail polish colour now in then and women's fashion but it is a mutual conversation about what each of us looks good in.

So have never given up who I was as that person is still me. My core identity is and will always be the same, Isha is just one face of several identities I have beyond the core (military me, sports me, social me, etc, etc.)

Hugs

Isha

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Originally Posted by mechamoose

Do you/we really change our interests when we let 'her' out of the box?

Is it an 'added' thing, or does it take away from your core identity?

Does it 'take over'? Is it somehow a 'bait and switch?- MM

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Firstly Mechamoose, thanks for starting your own thread.

I notice that you haven't linked your thread this time to DADT arrangements but I take it you are 'raging at' wives who you see as breaking their wedding vows if they refuse to embrace the additional female identity in the marriage.

The questions you pose are essentially about the CDer and miss the point of a wife. My wife has a much more fundamental need than another girlfriend. She wants and needs the love and nurture of her man who protects and supports her; who treats her like a princess.

It has taken me over 2 years to be in a place that works for my wife and for me. It is a DADT arrangement - she knows I dress and sees signs of it but that's all. Over the two years she has moved from threatening suicide on the basis that she couldn't live with me but can't live without me to yesterday coming across my laundry hanging in a spare bedroom cupboard to dry. All she did was tell me she loves me. Two years ago she would have gone to bed for 24 hours crying.

It did take me 6 months to move past the thought that my wife didn't love me unconditionally. What I now realise is the depth of her love for me that she would overcome her basic instinct of abhorring my dressing. Why would I want to force her to accept anything more? As an aside, I now have far more friends (all female) in my femme life than I have ever had mates in my male life where my wife is my best friend.

As Sara Jessica posted in the other thread: It takes a very special woman to put up with these things to whatever degree they are able, DADT, acceptance, participation. And the woman who for whatever reason is unable to cope with it is no less special. It is what it is.

My hope is that I can provide an alternative to CDers who are faced by the trauma and uncertainty of hiding their CDing from their wives. It doesn't have to be a choice between acceptance/tolerance or divorce. Wives can still love their husbands unconditionally and not want to welcome a third person into their marriage.

My take on it is similar to what happens with Dr. Who when he "regerates". It's basically the same entity but with a different personality potential. Of course there are remnants of the former "Doctor" in there and they may sometines "meet". This tends to come together to make us a full spectrum person eventually.:)

MM,
I'll pass on your first point, I don't agree but need to give it more thought !
Your second point referring to JesM's quote, I always had that interest well before I married but I guess it got swamped with all the other things going on when you first get married . When I first came out to my wife twenty years ago I wanted that side to open up and share it with her. Lets face it most of us don't have in depth conversations about our latest power tools, so it was something intimate I could share with her, but I guess like most wives they want their man to stay manly and not discuss shades of lipstick or what to wear with her new skirt !!
I'm really not that interested in tool catalogues anymore, I have a garage full and less inclination to use them !
It's not a case of dressing taking over, I would just prefer to be able to show I'm more interested because I do enjoy it ! Rather than find another way of losing a finger in my latest power tool !
I've played the man part long enough, I have another side which I want bring out and enjoy ! I guess I'm now answering your first point ! WTF does it really matter but most of us know it's not as easy as that ! Someone has to make sacrifices to be totally out and accepted and I guess it's going to be me !!

MM: Very interesting thread and thought provoking. For me, my priorities have changed a bit. I think I am now more "in tune" with my wife. Since I have brought Erin into the foreground more, I am not as grumpy and angry/depressed. I used to come home, not talk much and go through the motions of life. Now, I am content to be more talkative, and I chat with my wife daily about how her day was, what is going on in her life at work, how she is dealing with stuff, and just a much better listener and confidant. I don't try to fix her problems anymore and end the conversation in 5 seconds. She is brilliant enough to know how to fix her problems/situations at work, but I am much more relaxed and happy to listen/chat about things. We don't talk about makeup etc. We talk about what is going on in our lives more. I share more about what is going on in my work world (which I never did before as it was just too frustrating). So I guess for me, I have changed, but I believe for the better, for her, for me and for us.

Now, having said that, we do talk about clothes more, but only in that she asks me my opinion about what she should buy. I love to go clothes shopping with her for stuff for her, and we have a great time. We are not to the point of doing that for me, and I am fine with that.

We have an odd culture when it comes to marriage. We agree when we get married that this is for life. Isn't that at the root of what marriage means? If not, then when is the difference between marriage and dating? I digress. "In sickness and health, for richer or poorer, for better or worse." Unless I decide that you have changed and I don't like who the new you is. Then it is acceptable for me to divorce you. Trust me, I myself have contemplated that avenue many a time, and these issues, thoughts, concerns, are ones that I struggle with all of the time. What did I mean when I said I do? I do, for now? I do, until you really upset me? I do, until you age, and grow, and are no longer the same person that I said I do to?

To answer your questions directly Moose, I don't think that even if our interests do change because of dressing that that singularity really justifies divorce. There is no bait and switch in marriage, or really it is all a bait and switch. None of us ever remains exactly the same. We can all say that I said "I do" to that person at that time, but that person at that time is lost to history. We all change over time.

Moose, I have often stated that cross dressing is not the cause of divorces. That idea is completely supported here by all the women who participate. It is always more than cross dressing that pushes women of the edge to divorce. Always.

When fifty percent of first marriages fail it is due to something that falls out of favor. It does not have to be cross dressing. I really do not think there are that many cross dressers out there that cause 50% of marriages to fail. I hope you take that analysis with some tongue in cheek. Face it! Some women are not accepting of cross dressing. Some men cannot stomach their wives getting older, wrinkled, no longer a size zero, etc. So, they shed their wives, and, the fat balding men jump over the fence looking for something more to their liking.

I really dislike the analysis I read on this forum that a woman should just adjust to her husband wearing a dress, heels, hosiery, makeup, wig, etc. Many men, whether they are cross dressers or not, feel their wives should be totally subservient to their whims and desires. The rooster rules the hen house. When I was dating I was not attracted to women who fit that mold. I wanted a strong women who could live independently of me. A woman who did not "need" me. Yes, it turned out I developed an interest in wearing women's clothing. She is not appreciative of my cross dressing for whatever reason. It does not matter. I am fortunate she decided my other attributes override this "quirk" of mine. Once she told me when I was going to go deep sea fishing with guys from my job, "Of course, you may go. But, if you catch anything, don't expect me to clean it." She did not clean my salmon.

Frankly, if my wife transgressed some social norms that really crossed my moral boundaries, I'd "kick her out."

Is that expectation really a 'subserviant' one?

Marriage is a partnership, it is *beyond* friendship. If your wife/husband isn't an equal, you are doing it wrong.

I get that if my partner becomes a drug addict that I don't have to put up with that.. but clothing & presentation issues seriously confuse me. I'm sure that part of that is that I'm pansexual. I care more about the person than the presentation of that person. I recognize that I don't *get* monosexuals... how/why is gender more important than anything else? Why isn't dedication more important?

- MM

To me what you have to take into consideration is that lie of omission that was there before the wife made that promise in the wedding vows. I know I for one made that "lie of omission" and when my wife did find out it was a big issue and I couldn't blame her for it. We had some friends and he had recently found out that she had given a child up for adoption before they met and my wife asked me how I would have felt if she hadn't told me something like that before we got married and I found out by accident like she about my dressing. I know that at the time she was really scared about what I was doing because she didn't understand. Not that she fully understands now but she does know it's a part of me.

If she didn't know ahead of time, before she made those vows while your ideals and everything may not have changed to her you as a person are different. The fact they you now wear those heels instead of those boots makes a difference in the relationship. You are not the same person she married, to her at least, if you didn't tell her before you got married. There is now that part of you that is like a stranger to her. She has right to be scared and upset and "rag" about it.

At least that's my oppinion.

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I recognize that I don't *get* monosexuals... how/why is gender more important than anything else? Why isn't dedication more important?

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Because it is, that's why. They don't get you just as you don't get them. Even many casual not so deep TG CD's are basically trying to fit a square peg into a round hole when it comes to GG relationships and marriage. And male bonding friendships if they want to take it there too. In order to make it work, in regards to GG relationships, the square peg is going to have to round the edges, the the that who has the round hole is going to have to change as well. Many just don't have the capability let alone the desire. It is how it is. Many are hard wired when it comes to gender being black and white.

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Originally Posted by gendermutt

Many are hard wired when it comes to gender being black and white.

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1) Why?

2) How do we fix/address that?

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Originally Posted by gendermutt

And male bonding friendships if they want to take it there too.

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Like the straight friend I have known for 25 years who now gets naked with me after we had a certain conversation?

Interest and identity are not the same thing, sweetie!

- MM

I'm still me, always have been. I still listen to and play metal music, rebuild engines, quad, fish, and play and watch hockey. I still eat and drink anything I want although its more in moderation now as I watch my weight.

There's nothing wrong with it, but some CD's will try to act "feminine" based on what there social implications and own ideals defines as feminine.

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Originally Posted by Donnagirl

Donna is now a part of the family and is, according to my SO, her best girlfriend.

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Personally, I like to pick my own friends, rather than have them thrust upon me by circumstances. I picked my husband, and then this new woman shows up, twenty years later. Maybe over time I'll come to see her charm and appreciate her sense of humor, as she develops one. Right now, she's like an insecure teenager. We're also currently raising our daughter, a sweet fifteen-year-old, who is more fun to spend time with than my husband's alter-ego, if only because I've known her longer and I get her sense of humor.

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Originally Posted by mechamoose

We *both* live in here sweeties. No harm, foul or conflict....We are lucky, we get the chance to sample BOTH

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Lucky you. And maybe I'll feel lucky, after I build a relationship with the new person, and feel that I know her better. Right now, she's just a new housemate that my husband invited into our house, who takes up closet-space but doesn't bring any light or joy into the house. My husband is a happy person (or fakes it well); his female alter-ego is never happy, just insecure and needy.

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Originally Posted by Teresa

When I first came out to my wife twenty years ago I wanted that side to open up and share it with her. Lets face it most of us don't have in depth conversations about our latest power tools, so it was something intimate I could share with her, but I guess like most wives they want their man to stay manly and not discuss shades of lipstick or what to wear with her new skirt !! I'm really not that interested in tool catalogues anymore.

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Maybe your wife isn't interested in lipstick or fashion much any more, just as you're tired of tools. Does she discuss those things with her friends? Or is she like me, and spends her time with other women discussing family, friends, politics, pop culture, and social issues, rather than hair and makeup?

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Originally Posted by Nadine Spirit

"In sickness and health, for richer or poorer, for better or worse." Unless I decide that you have changed and I don't like who the new you is. Then it is acceptable for me to divorce you...I don't think that even if our interests do change because of dressing that that singularity really justifies divorce.

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I take my vows seriously. I'm not leaving. But I do think that if a person spirals into a long-term depression because they feel trapped living with someone they now can't stand... and if they feel that divorce is the only way to emerge from the depression, I won't fault them for getting a divorce. We all only have one life. If your marriage makes you miserable for years on end, you should start over and try to build a new, happier life after divorce.

@MM-
1. Why does water boil at 212 degrees? because it does.
2. change number one and you can change anything.
3. ... The male "friend" who now gets naked with you after a certain conversation. I have only got naked with other women based on a conversation IF that conversation was based on us being sexual together.... otherwise, I had no reason to be naked with them. So, unless there is some other reason for him to remove his clothing in your presence... I would say his or your version of straight is not the same as most people.

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Originally Posted by mechamoose

1) Why?

2) How do we fix/address that?

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Honey, straight girls just are what they are. They can't help it - they are born that way, same as us. And few of them care to feel like accidental lesbians.

People divorce for far lesser reasons than issues of gender.

It just is what it is. Those of you who make it together despite gender, congratulations, you are fortunate indeed - especially if everyone is mostly happy.

Others of us lose everything and everyone.

I believe the only way to change this is for society to allow us all, cis / trans, straight / gay, and everything in between to truly be our authentic selves without such enormous costs. For too many of us, the price is only worth it because death is the alternative.

Were we allowed to be ourselves, we could express who we are, and others could love us - if that's their authentic self - without fear or consequence.

We have a long way to go.

One of the most important reasons to disclose early on. To find someone you are compatible with in terms of gender variance. Wait years into a relationship and then reveal a major part about you, and it really doesn't come much greater than gender issues for most, and it will be a difficult road. Not impossible but difficult. I would say though, that IF... after years of a guy claiming to be a doctor and in reality he was a plumber, his wife is going to have major issues with the reveal.....

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Originally Posted by gendermutt

One of the most important reasons to disclose early on. To find someone you are compatible with in terms of gender variance.

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How does that help? Read the threads - most women, even the ones who accepted this ultimately, would've bailed if they'd known at first. It's not their fault, they have no way to know they COULD accept this.

It's hard for many of us to overcome the denial, fear, and shame we've lived with. That was certainly true for me. What was I going to tell my wife "I am completely broken, I've worn women's clothes off and on since I was a kid, but that old demon rum made me do it! I'm sober, I'll never do it again!"

It's what I told myself was the truth, although it was a total lie to myself. And I wanted to tell her. But I knew she'd never accept it. And I was so desperately alone, I felt so broken, and I'd have sooner died than said a word about my feelings about my gender - that I was a woman, that I desperately needed to live as one.

And thus we arrive at our current impasse.

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Originally Posted by gendermutt

@MM-
1. Why does water boil at 212 degrees? because it does.
2. change number one and you can change anything.

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By increasing or decreasing pressure or altitude the thermopoint of water boiling can be changed. So really, not a good analogy.



OK a few things I find interesting here. Realize I have been here long time and have heard most the arguments for and against. A new one is "I like to choose my own friends" I don't truly understand the point there. I am different. I see through the facade and see the person and although they may appear different, I still see the person. If, just for teh sake of this thread, clothing wasn't the issue. If you met the naked person would not like them? And that goes toward what I understand MM to be asking. Are they that much different?

The point about needing a man to protect the princess. I again see just how lucky I have been in my life that the women I have been connected with don't have a standard where they need to be on a pedestal. Or they don't need me to fix a pipe and I didn't need them to cook dinner. Again, I understand what is being said but it seems odd to me. In my life (and understand both women were very accepting of who I am) we were on an equal playing field. Not saying one wasn't better at something and usually did that task (my wife kept finances far better than I do). This is a learned response. They are told from a young age that they NEED a man. I am so happy that the world is changing and that the "need" part is going away. That the "wanting to be with" is becoming the norm. The whole "until death do us part" thing died in the majority of marriages 50 years ago. In that regard too is teh man wanting the wife to be "subservient" to his wishes. This I find totally off the wall. But then I assume that if the woman came to the man tomorrow and said "Honey, I have become a vegan. Would you be vegan at least sometimes with me?" The man would say "yes". I know fairytale world. I know this because so many people get divorced because of inflexibility and selfishness. Comparing apples to bananas I often wonder if the one spouse would dump the other over any physical change. Car accident that deforms the face? Loss of a mental state? It amazes me that women will stay with men who are abusive and violent, but dump them for being more feminine. For not being "macho" or at least a macho as they expect a man to be. Again, I am lucky my mates liked gentleness and what many here would call feminine actions. Maybe it is not luck, maybe it was good choices by both of us. :idontknow:

To answer the OP, I didn't change except I was more open and gregarious My GF actually liked the femme side as much or more because we would be more relaxed and open. We never saw it as meeting a standard stereotypical ideal. In my present state I am looking for a life partner. Gender won't be important as long as they mesh with me. I tried the macho protector route. That failed miserably because I am not that weak "I need a big strong husky guy" type.

Would I like someone to protect me? Sometimes, but I would also like someone who just loves me for me. My feelings are that if you cannot get passed the clothing, the mannerisms, the personality changes (and yes I know TGs are selfish..I have been there), then there really is no need to carry on. You both need to figure out if life would be better with someone else or if you can learn to live with AND accept it AND be content together, then make it work. If you have to try too hard, it isn't fair to either one of you. Life is too short to fight about it.

It is the theory of marriage to find someone to be with your whole life. The reality is, as life goes by, we grow; spiritually, fundamentally, socially, and sexually(loosely used to describe many sensual topics). I have been fortunate to find someone who has allowed us both to grow together. Yes! When I wore pantyhose to bed for the first time to try to break the ice on this topic it freaked her out. Back in the closet I went. But the conversation started soon after and we discussed it. Little by little over a period of a few years we are both comfortable talking about certain things. I had a harder time accepting myself than she did of the cding topic. I THINK? But she has applied to be a member as a GG and has looked at the website and found it interesting and enlightening.

I would hope that when interests change, the feelings and the values a person built their relationship on could grow. Some topics are harder to get through than others. Buying a new car without the SO knowing is questionable, but you can't easily hide a car for years at a time. Having the coming out conversation and revealing it has grown from a small start many years ago, leaves questions to what else a person is hiding. A question my wife asked me as we went through our discussion. It could also raise questions about one's feelings for the other or leave insecurities as to why a partner would take on the gender traits of someone they married.

Interests change as you go through life. My wife would only let me watch one football game a week. And let me know how much she didn't understand why I would watch it at all. Took her to a live game and the new perspective allowed her to see the game in a new way. She has played two seasons of fantasy football and did well. Sunday morning is "The boys" on Fox, followed by a day long flipping back and forth of games and Monday night football. She has come a long way from the days we first started together, but a new perspective allowed her to enjoy something I didn't want to give up. After all this time, I will sit and watch Project Runway with her and rarely have anything derogatory to say like I would have just a few years ago.

Balance, give and take, grow. Two lives on one path hoping to enjoy the company on the way.

I realized I never answered MM's question "Do our interests change?"

For me at least, a year into transition, the answer is yes.

Some differences:

• I'm feminine. I wear a lot of makeup. I like being a girl.
• I'm happy now. I like myself.
• I'm much, much more confident than I used to be.
• I'm much, much, much more take-charge and aggressive than I used to be. (Those two are ironic, here I thought those qualities were from the male side of me.)
• I'm completely fearless.
• I'm very spiritual now. I live my life to serve God. What happens to me is irrelevant. It is what is supposed to happen. (I told my ex-wife this, and she responded "What the ****?!? You don't even BELIEVE in God!!!!"
• I spend every second I can helping others, or trying to. I used to play games and be kind of introverted. Now? There is so much God needs me to do, and I am so limited. But I do the best I can.
• I was an amateur astronomer. A really serious amateur astronomer. Now? I don't even look up. There's just no time.
• I'm a queer woman now. I used to be a straight guy. My sexuality is - odd. My ex wife would be repulsed, to be honest.
• I used to be conservative. Not anymore. I'm thinking of joining NOW, and trying to help women get more autonomy over their bodies. It's an important fight.
• I was a straight dude. Now? I live in the gay part of town. I'm immersed in queer culture. No one from my old life understands this world at all.
• My life is about love now. That's all I've ever wanted it to be about. My ex thinks that statement is the stupidest f'n thing she's ever heard

There's not very much of him left in me, I think. Some things are the same, just more intense. I've gone from being "really nice" to "really sweet" for example. Where I used to stay quiet, if I think someone is really, really wrong, I can be an acid tongued bitch.

I think I watch one TV show that I used to watch that I still watch. I don't watch a lot of TV - that part is the same. I'm still really funny. I'm still smart.

I am the type of woman my ex-wife would never befriend. She's a wonderful woman, she really is. She'd really dislike me for so many reasons.

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

A new one is "I like to choose my own friends" I don't truly understand the point there. I am different. I see through the facade and see the person and although they may appear different, I still see the person. If, just for teh sake of this thread, clothing wasn't the issue. If you met the naked person would not like them? And that goes toward what I understand MM to be asking. Are they that much different?

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Yes, they seem like different people to me. I have no problem with the clothes (or with my husband naked); but when the wig goes on, a new person is in the room, with different tastes, mannerisms, and different sense of humor. Short of inviting you into my life, I don't see any way to persuade you of my reality. Still, it's real.

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My feelings are that if you cannot get passed the clothing, the mannerisms, the personality changes (and yes I know TGs are selfish..I have been there), then there really is no need to carry on. You both need to figure out if life would be better with someone else or if you can learn to live with AND accept it AND be content together, then make it work. If you have to try too hard, it isn't fair to either one of you. Life is too short to fight about it.

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Or we make room for the third person without expecting that I have to be her best chum. That may come in time. I've only known her a year (and have only spent a couple of weeks with her altogether. Maybe she'll grow on me, once she gets more comfortable and less insecure. And once she can talk like an intelligent adult woman, about more than her physical appearance and shopping.

Jess, maybe there just isn't all that much deeper than the physical aspects? I actually suspect this of those who have this different persona when dressed. Yes, they act "different" because externally they are different, and maybe that is where a lot of it is with your husband. For me, clothing is just one thing that I do which connects the external with the internal. And I believe that all willful CDers do have somethng feminine internal that causes the desire to dress to the point which we do. But.... still, the drive for your husband maybe the external change itself.

Can you find another way to say this, gendermutt? I don't know what you mean. Are you saying I don't like or feel close to his female persona because she is fake? That he's mostly guy inside so doesn't know how to be an authentic woman?

I'm pretty sure my interests haven't changed. Certainly, I have expressed those repressed interests more often and openly. I don't feel that I am obsessive about it. I do pretty much the same things, relate and converse with my wife and others in the same way as I ever have.

Please note that I am speaking as a CDer about crossdressing ONLY - ie no transition - that's a whole other kettle of fish!

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Originally Posted by mechamoose

I'm kind of raging at the partners (those who promised 'in sickness or in health, for richer or poorer') who have an issue with your identity...If you still adhere to the values and priorities you did while 'en-boots' as 'en-heels', WTF does it matter?

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Adhering to the same values etc isn't the issue. The REAL issue is that most people seem to have little understanding of marriage vows (evidence = divorce statistics).
When you promised 'in sickness and in health' etc (and she did likewise) the ONLY condition attached was "so long as you both shall live"! End of!

Whether you decide to wear a dress 2.5 days a week or nothing at all or whatever is actually irrelevant as is any change of behaviour on her part. Coming from a CDer that may sound self-serving. However, the fact that it potentially works in my favour doesn't change the reality! The reason that divorce statistics are sky high is that couples don't get it - neither when they are getting married nor when the marriage encounters difficulties.

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Originally Posted by Nadine Spirit

We have an odd culture when it comes to marriage. We agree when we get married that this is for life. Isn't that at the root of what marriage means? If not, then when is the difference between marriage and dating? I digress. "In sickness and health, for richer or poorer, for better or worse." Unless I decide that you have changed and I don't like who the new you is. Then it is acceptable for me to divorce you. Trust me, I myself have contemplated that avenue many a time, and these issues, thoughts, concerns, are ones that I struggle with all of the time. What did I mean when I said I do? I do, for now? I do, until you really upset me? I do, until you age, and grow, and are no longer the same person that I said I do to?

To answer your questions directly Moose, I don't think that even if our interests do change because of dressing that that singularity really justifies divorce. There is no bait and switch in marriage, or really it is all a bait and switch. None of us ever remains exactly the same.

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Agreed, see above!

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Originally Posted by Stephanie47

I really dislike the analysis I read on this forum that a woman should just adjust to her husband wearing a dress, heels, hosiery, makeup, wig, etc. Many men, whether they are cross dressers or not, feel their wives should be totally subservient to their whims and desires. The rooster rules the hen house.

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Nope, the rooster doesn't rule the hen house (no matter what he does or does not do / wear). However you made vows! If you didn't understand them or didn't mean them then you shouldn't have made 'em.

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Originally Posted by Stephanie47

Frankly, if my wife transgressed some social norms that really crossed my moral boundaries, I'd "kick her out."

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But that isn't what either of you signed up for!

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

How does that help? Read the threads - most women, even the ones who accepted this ultimately, would've bailed if they'd known at first. It's not their fault, they have no way to know they COULD accept this.

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So, let's say that 5 years in she has a medical condition that necessitates brain surgery, it goes wrong and she ends up with a brain injury which changes her personality (this isn't theory, happened to a colleague) or you're involved in a wreck, lose a limb maybe more. Not her fault, not your fault. Neither of you have any way of knowing whether you can accept what has happened to the other. Does that justify abandoning them?

Not many choose to be CDers.

And, by the way, I'm not raging with anyone. I'm certainly not raging with, or otherwise critical of, any wife who has difficulty dealing with her husband's crossdressing. It's 'out there'. It's weird. It's troubling. I get that. If she'd known up front - who knows? What does sadden me is when bailing out is adopted as the method of resolving such difficulties.

Please remember, I'm talking about crossdressing not transition.

MM - I think you're in a very fortunate minority with the relationship you have - clearly, most marriages that fail do so because of something other than CDing. That doesn't mean that none fail because of CDing as an issue, just that in absolute terms the proportion will be tiny.

I believe most divorces are because of either infidelity or incompatibility. Infidelity is a clear absolute. Incompatibility seems trite to me, but a substantial majority fall into this category. I don't hold to 'minor' incompatibilities as a valid reason, but people can change substantially through life and if someone does, well I'm contemporary enough to accept that would be a valid reason for separating and starting again, rather than persisting and ruining two people's lives, or increasing the chances of more serious abuse in a relationship.

I've known people divorce because one became a vegetarian - another because of financial ineptitude, nothing illegal, just incompetence... I'm sure there are more trivial ones as well as many more justified.

Everybody's values are subtly different and hugely mixed - I can understand how the relative stigma of our misunderstood condition would switch most women off entirely... that's nothing to do with us as individuals - purely how any SO would have to deal with what everyone else thinks of her partner. As long as the stigma is there in society, any SO has a valid reason - only education and acceptance will change that.

For those of you who have found that acceptance in a partner - treasure it as a gift from the gods; it is surely a very random gift...

Katey x

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Originally Posted by Judith96a

So, let's say that 5 years in she has a medical condition that necessitates brain surgery, it goes wrong and she ends up with a brain injury which changes her personality (this isn't theory, happened to a colleague) or you're involved in a wreck, lose a limb maybe more. Not her fault, not your fault. Neither of you have any way of knowing whether you can accept what has happened to the other. Does that justify abandoning them?

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Lots of people would say "yes", judging by the divorce statistics.

Look, I understand how you feel. My wife suffered a really severe bout of depression because of something in her past about 8-9 years into our marriage. It was really tough to deal with. I stuck with her, although it was hard. We got through it, although I have a house I don't need and never wanted that I'm trying to sell, as a result. (Short version - she HAD to have a new house or she'd never be happy again, so she said.)

When I came out as trans? We were done. She hung in there four whole months before kicking me to the curb.

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Originally Posted by Judith96a

Please remember, I'm talking about crossdressing not transition.

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Oh, right, sorry, forgot about that. I keep forgetting that trans* are human toxic waste, and need to be dumped immediately. Lucky for y'all you have nothing in common with us. So anyway, yeah, my fault my wife dumped me because I was born trans. I shouldn't have "chosen" to be a woman, right?

Well, I always asked this about my situation, "why couldn't this have been pancreatic cancer, instead of 'the trans?'" My ex-wife probably would've hung with me to the bitter end. I like to think so, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Judith96a

Not many choose to be CDers.
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Funny you write this is as I would actually suggest that many wives do believe their husbands are choosing to be crossdressers! Even now, after my time here and all that I know, I still see the grip this has on my H and how even though he controls it well and only occasionally dresses, the truth is he's powerless to stop. And I'm still here thinking 'it's clothing, for crying out loud. You're a grown man so just stop it already!'

Sad thing is, my H is a lovely, generous guy and he's not really childish about any of this. It just looks childish from the outside when you see men getting their lives and relationships all twisted up for clothing and wigs and make up and basically external paraphernalia. Many here mention illness and injury and how we wouldn't leave a spouse when these things happen. I think some would. I personally wouldn't though, because I understand these things. They usually occur without choice and the person needs love and support. I also realise that on some level crossdressing is the same. Despite that, there will always be this little nagging doubt at the back of my mind that my H did choose this, that it's only compulsive because he allows it, and ultimately he is the one bringing the issue into our marriage that is making our vows difficult. As I said, I suspect many new GGs wonder if her partner isn't just refusing to stop dressing because he doesn't want to. The sheer depth of all this is very hard to understand unless you delve further.

And MM, you asked how to fix those of us for which gender and sexuality is inflexible? You don't. We're not broken any more than you are. You're not going to change heterosexual women into preferring men who present like women or change our sexuality from straight to fluid. It's not in our DNA to behave such a way. If we didn't prefer heterosexual men who present as men, we wouldn't be heterosexual women! The only thing you might change is social approval so that straight women feel less embarrassed and threatened to marry men who crossdress, and so that those women who actively seek gender fluid partners can find y'all better! As it currently stands, most women end up married to a crossdresser without realising, until some shocking moment arrives many years after the wedding day. The choice was never given. That is not a healthy foundation for marriage and in my mind, definitely reason enough for the relationship to end if the wife chooses. It doesn't matter that maybe her husband hadn't figured himself out before that moment. What matters is that sometimes the change is just too big and the relationship moves in a direction that one of the spouses can't or won't follow.

Sometimes it's better to move on.

I was 55 when Tina appeared. Initially we really didn't understand much about what was happening but we started by teasing apart my two gendered selves. So, Tina has always been different, that's definitely how we wanted it, and initially the male and female parts seemed to equal the sum of what I had always been.

Then my wife tried to find out if Tina would view topics differently, potentially based upon her gendered point of view. The answer was, "sometimes"! That amazed us, but as time has gone on, the sum of the parts has increased because we are only working with one database!

Bottom line, my gendered selves are very different and that's exactly what makes it work for us!