Insensitive comments

As an crossdresser / mildly transgender person who is out only to his wife, I find it difficult to support myself and others in open settings. For example, I have recently noticed that some new employees where I work have a tendency to make remarks or comments that are insensitive at least and possibly even offensive. The kind of things that one male might say to another male like, if you're cold, wear a longer skirt tomorrow. Nothing too outright rude but there have been a few comments about " he-she" that I can't fully recall.

My problem is, I would like to say something but can't bring my self to open my mouth. I think there is a fear that if I mount a defense, that this will somehow out me to the company. With each comment that passes, I get more and more angry with myself for standing by and saying nothing. Does anyone else share this frustration and how do you handle it.

Jackie

Jackie yes it is hard being in the closet and because crossdressing is still a very misunderstood lifestyle.
I want to say things where I work too but I just don't want the confrontation so it's best left un said.
Sometimes we just have to suck it up.

Pick you battles on that kind of stuff for now. If the opportunity comes along where its getting out of hand say, " good lord the way you homophobes carry on sure makes you a bunch of rednecks." Something like that when the time is right is ok.
When they make their little snide remarks look at them with no emotion and then look away for now.....Its just that you can't take a stand on every little comment.

How about, "Why does it bother you so much?" or "I think he doth protest too much"

That is, you question if their reaction is a way of hiding their own thoughts on the subject. The same way that rabidly homophobic politicians and clergy seem to be the ones who end up on the news for some illegal sexual misconduct.


It is difficult to take a stand, and far too easy to just let yourself seem "One of the boys" I've had the same problem.

I think the best response you can make is to ask this question,"if you child were gay or transgender, Would you say that to them?"

usually if if such things can be brought into context of ones own child or family, it offers them a different view of reality

I have found that since I have accepted, or embraced, this part of my being, I am actually more vocal when I hear these sort of things. I am happy to say I think I am way less bigoted towards another lifestyle choices than I was when I was fighting with myself over this. I will take a stand and defend someone without regards of what someone else thinks "is right". I don't think it has the potential to out me in doing so.

We had a sister come in with her SO once at work, Her makeup was horrible, her outfit was just about the same, but the girl that waited on them wanted to make such a joke of it to everyone working there. Now, because I am open about my hosiery fetish, she thought I was the best one to bring to the front to see this sister. "There's some pantyhose for you", my response? "your just jealous she has better legs than you", I smiled and walked away. She didn't say much about it after that.

Jackie,
Just suck it in andgo with the flow.
It may be hard but rocking the boat can make things harder.

I have a lot of men friends, and can relate. Never want to out myself, but it definitely doesn't feel good listening to these types of remarks and not saying anything. I guess I've got no advice except to say that you're not alone...

I have done exactly what Jenniferathome has suggested to a coworker but using the names of his children. He is an otherwise nice guy but a homophobe and justified by his faith. I really like and respect him otherwise. He really did not know he was doing something wrong. But when confronted with the decision to accept or banish one of his children, he had to say he would accept.
I did it at another place by telling them that the person they were slandering was better than they and welcome to live next door to me any time. That got me effectively banned from their job sites but I was still first choice for all the others. All I lost was working at any site that the drunken bigots were at. No loss at all.
So if you choose to react, perhaps the first method,which I have used many times, is the better one.
My heart goes out to you!

Some people just like to listen to themselves talk and don't really care what they say. No catchy comebacks will make them realize that maybe their remarks are insensitive. It's junior high mentality.

I know a handicapped person who gets a lot of insenstive comments directed to him. His response is great, "you can't fix stupid".

Hi Jackie,

Don't beat yourself up over this. We all have to pick and choose our battles which suit our lives.

I find that for the most part the ones who make such comments do not see any harm in it . . . being in the military I still hear the phrase "Let's go ladies" when addressing a group of men and I guess it is done to make the men feel less than manly? Being completely out at work, I normally take the time to call people on such comments and I find they are contrite but still don't get it. I have noticed less such comments when I am around and occasionally if someone slips up I get the "no offence meant" rider tacked on. It is about educating the masses and someday who knows people will get it.

Hugs

Isha

my responce in situations such as that are just... live and let live. we all have our own demons lol...

It depends on where you live, but you can rightfully defend TG/TS folks based on discrimination laws without coming out yourself.

'Hostile Workplace Environment' issues apply to folks exposed to porn in the workplace, 'bro' level commentary on potency & gender, jokes in poor taste, etc.

I don't need to be a girl to be offended by testosterone laden sh!t.

Speak out on why it is wrong rather than why/how it affects you personally, and your cover is safe. :)

<3

- MM

Everyone seems so concerned about being polically correct these days.

Has anyone considered that folks mite be doing the opposite not so much because they r haters, but simply because they're sick of walking on eggs in every conversation?

robbysherry: I'm gonna disagree with you here.

Work is WORK. You are there because of skills, not because of clothing.

I have -zero- tolerance for 'dudes' who are ready and willing to dismiss people because of gender related issues. ("fag")

Accept yourself. Believe in yourself. *STAND UP* for yourself.

Don't let prejudice marginalize you. You have every right to be you, to stake your flag in the ground like the Marines at Iwo Jima. You can defend the *ideas* without exposing your personal issues, honest.

- MM

The fear of being "outed" makes us hypersensitive, both in the kind of situation you describe, and in shopping situations. When we buy panties or a bra, why are we so scared that somehow the sales clerk will figure out our secret instead of just assuming it's for our wife or girlfriend? Why is that so much more scary than buying tampons--obviously the sales clerk isn't thinking, "Aha, this guy must be having his period." Likewise, when we stand up for the rights of crossdressers or transsexuals, why should we fear that people will assume that we must be one? If a white person speaks out in favor of equal rights for racial minorities, nobody says, "Aha, he must be a closeted black guy." In a way, I think your status as a closeted CD or TS person makes your statement in favor of respect and equal rights stronger, since your listeners think that you, like them, are not transgender.

I hear those comments all the time where i work and the thing is i really don't let it bother me .There will always be people who will not accept anything out of what they consider their normal .Also i would like to add it's not that i think making racial comments or making people feel bad about themselves is right no matter what they do but i know in this world you need a thick skin

Whoa! I DIDN'T suggest becoming a doormat, MM.

However, I DO think every situation to be uniquely different. There r times u carry a big stick and others where u should walk quietly. It's up to each of us to decide which is which. And, then we must live with consequences of our own actions!

I buy girl clothes without blinking. It is kind of a fun staring contest for me.

"I'm not saying anything... are YOU gonna say something?"

Go ahead and make a mundane uncomfortable. It makes a small step towards how they make us feel.

"Yes, these panties are for me, why do you ask? Do you want help with sizes?"

You'd be surprised how quickly they retreat.

<3

- MM

I work with some of these type guys too. I try not to make a pointed comment back, but I will say something like "you know these are just people who are trying to live their lives and they have feelings too".

I think in 2015 any time someone makes a crack against Transgender / Women etc it could easily be pointed out or joked about some other group and they could see how inappropriate it is

would you joke about Black People or Jews in the workplace?

where is the line!


it's all a bit o' fun innit it?

we're just having a larf, right?

RIGHT???

maybe just point out how damn stupid is and if they don't get it well there you go!

^.^

I think people have hit the right tone on their responses. Assuming you don't want to reveal your own lifestyle to your co-workers,
and possibly attract their scorn and such, you really have to either leave things alone, or pick a rather general response that kinda
puts the focus of attention on their own attitudes and such. Or simply tell them you don't think what is going on is appropriate.

If things really get uncomfortable, you may want to take things to HR, although it may also mean you come out of the closet as far
as they are concerned. However, most HR departments are pretty good about keeping things confidential.


In my own case, I came out while working for Capital One's credit card division, and the only comments I ever got there were supportive.
Not saying that there weren't detractors, but they kept to themselves and didn't associate with me, and the call center was large enough
that I never noticed it. The HR department there was excellent in handling the matter. I think I may have told the story here about the one
time I was heading to the bathrooms, and while crossing the hallway, my path crossed with three GGs, who kinda snickered and giggled after
they walked by. I thought nothing of it, except that I could be a better woman than they could, but HR was concerned, and told me that if anything
like that happened again to let them know.

I currently work at a survey center. When I returned to working here after my stint at the Capital One call center, I was mostly accepted. Two older
GGs who used to socialize with me stopped, and the main supervisor there had to have the awkward talk about which bathroom i *WOULD* be using.
(I actually found a unisex bathroom in the basement that is best for all sides ... ) But since then, both him, my other supervisors, and my other
co-workers are very nice about my cross-dressing. I even inspired one GG co-worker with my dress style.

On my third job, I have come into work dressed up before, and my main supervisor has seen me dressed, and I emailed him about it at the beginning
of the athletic season. However, since this job entails dealing with massive numbers of the general public, and because the objective is to get people
into the events venue and it's not about ME, I dress as a man.

So it depends basically on the kind of job you are doing, and the attitudes of the people there. There was an ammunition manufacturer that has moved
into town (THANKS COLORADO!) and I applied for a position with them. However, if hired, i would not dress as a woman there, again because of the work
environment, and because of workplace safety issues.

However, I know you will do what is best for yourself, and this will turn out good in the end.


Amy M. Jackson

Jennifer: An excellent way to open peoples eyes. We are all people after all is said and done.

Joanne: great response.

^.^

docrobbysherry, you are very right about the PC atmosphere. I think that at times, people say some very un-PC things
simply because they need a break from having to watch what they say around others.

I am very anti-PC. In fact, i don't stand for it one bit. However, as has kinda been pointed out, especially by my last
post, what you do, and how you are received depends on the people and the environment at the workplace. In both of
my call center jobs that I have had, the people I deal with are on the phone, and can not tell that I am a woman. I sound
like a man (most of the time), and that is how I am treated. My current co-workers either accept and/or compliment me,
or they shut up and stay to themselves. That's fine by me.

The events staffing job is different, and it would not be appropriate for me to be subjected to the judgement call of everyone
I would meet each day at work. I also would not want to impact the number of people attending the event. My point is not that
bigotry against crossdressing should be allowed ... it is that we as people need to have some respect for the workplace and the
other people there.

You know, it may be that the workplace is simply not where you want to be expressing your female side. You are there to work.
You are there to use your skills for the betterment of the company. You are not being paid to express your gender identity. This
is why you have to look at each work situation and see what you can, and what you might want to get away with, so to speak. At
the moment, I am happy with the amount of expression I get to have at my jobs. Now, out in the general world, it's completely
different, and I don't care what anyone else thinks, and I am dressed up almost 100% of the time.


Amy M. Jackson

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Originally Posted by docrobbysherry

Everyone seems so concerned about being polically correct these days.

Has anyone considered that folks mite be doing the opposite not so much because they r haters, but simply because they're sick of walking on eggs in every conversation?

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gads I hope not...you mean we could become the racist elitist people we were 50 years ago because you're tired of watching what you say in public? Everytime I hear that "I am sick of being PC" I wonder..what would you do if you were the one they were putting down.

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Originally Posted by amyjacks2014

^.^

Assuming you don't want to reveal your own lifestyle to your co-workers,
and possibly attract their scorn and such, you really have to either leave things alone,

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Everyone will do what they think they have to do. But why do you assume that standing up against sexist and racist remarks will out you? Can't be a champion for other people's rights and not be part of that group? It doesn't take much to educate. You don't have to confront, you just have to plant a seed.

since joining iv been telling folks that i have a family member who is transgendered, some will ask who...i tell them it is a sister i never knew about until recently that mom gave up to catholic charity, they dont have to know its me....or that i do have a sibling which was given up......


beforehand it was an altogether different story, i felt shame and embarrassment and probably outed myself blushing about it.....

If these are decent people just immature maybe try something simple like friendly "be nice" or "that's not cool". It'll give them a pretty clear hint that those comments aren't ok with you. It's a lot harder to change anyone's mind so I'll let that one go until you're more comfortable in you situation.

^.^

Lorileah, you quoted me, but not my entire thought. I said if you are in the closet, your choices are either to do nothing and ignore the situation, OR making a general statement that makes your opinion known without drawing attention to yourself. The issue I see is, you have to respect the co-workers, and the workplace, while at the same time, the other co-workers have to have some respect for those around them. That comes down to what Launa just said ... you can't take a stand on every little comment, so is this the hill you want to die on?


Amy M. Jackson

All you need to say is "different strokes for different folks".
Or the next time your in a conversation where the gender issue pops up, just say " I bet he would look nice in that xxx dress" and smile. Everyone will think your joking because no one ever believes the truth anymore.
Bobbi

Guys have testosterone and very little of what they say has been though through! That's just being a young man with a ton of hormones and a deadly fear of being gay! Like Isha stated, guys call each other "ladies" in the military all the time. If you're complaining about something, you'll get referred to as a pussy. It's just "guy talk". It means nothing. Guys never say anything nice to one another. That's what girls do! LOL If they only knew. For those of us living in two different worlds, it's best not to mix them up.

This is just me, but in any setting...really, anywhere...when I hear this kind of thing about any group, I say something. Not aggressively or confrontationally. But I say something that at least indicates I disagree with the attitude and do not share it. I have never had a problem doing so (except with my brother in law..but...sheesh, thats a story in itself...lol). And usually it makes the aggresser stop and think, and at the same time allows the victim to know they have support.
I cant not do this. Sorry. Just me.

Anything you say can and will be used in evidence against you.

But it doesn't sound like the comments are referring to you- in which case, why would you invite their attention?

If I've misunderstood, and you are being targeted, it's decision time. Either take it, or don't. A short, sharp shock can do wonders- I'd wait till you get one of them alone then frighten the life out of him. But then I'm a confrontational sort of girl :)

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Originally Posted by Jenniferathome

I think the best response you can make is to ask this question,"if you child were gay or transgender, Would you say that to them?"

usually if if such things can be brought into context of ones own child or family, it offers them a different view of reality

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Good advice.

In most cases not only in our situation, it's best to not respond to any crticism or snide remarks. But sometimes I will.

I have a friend in the guy circle who can't seem to get enough of making homophobic gay put-downs. He's made me a target of his jokes.. I've told my other friends that it has become sickening and old and he has backed off. Now and then I'll just roll my eyes and ask him why he's so pre-occupoied with the subject. I don't think he knows about me.

There was a time he'd send emails and pictures of a gay nature. More than once I'd ask him in front of the others why he has such a big collection of gay porno in his files. I even said that I questioned his sexuality because he gets so many jollies from it. I'm not alone. He's badgered others, two who quit their jobs because of it.

Many times I ask if he's trying to tell us something, and I'll say it front of the others. It all works for me.

Cheryl

I think "Going with the flow..." is harmful to us. It certainly does no good. As cliche' as it may be, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men( or crossdressers) to do nothing."
Edmund Burke

And there are ways to draw attention to the issue without drawing attention to you. Simply take the "Company man" approach;
"Do you realize the potential problems you are opening you AND this company up to by talking like that? You could be forced to take some "Warm and Fuzzy interpersonal communication classes, loose your job AND/OR get yourself and the company sued! And thats easy stuff if they dont bring up Federal discrimination charges against you. What if the guy you just cracked that joke to was gay or transgender, and you didn't know it; do you think they are all limp- wristed, effeminate, or flamingly obvious?!?"

Using one of the wise-crackers as a potential target sort of disarms them from attacking you, it also gives you the chance to show that there are lots of people out there who may be one thing or another, and they never even know.

But also making it personal can work as well. But it can also backfire. People who are passionate about things, take a personal angle. But you can ask them, what if their child was gay or transgender? Of course you may still run into such a bigot that they would cast their child out into the world, and not think twice about it. Such was th case I had with a co-worker recently.

I'm really surprised by the "boys will be boys" and "let is slide" comments. To me, this is not about taking a position on cross dressing or transgenderism or even gay politics. It's simply putting forth what you believe: standing up for what's right. Ignoramuses need to know they are an ignoramus. If this was about a black person or someone in a wheelchair, would you even hesitate? I can tell the difference between guy talk, a joke, and hate. Edmund Burke was right.

The TV news magazine 20/20 does a "What would you do" segment. I am always shocked at those who do nothing.

THIS!!!

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Originally Posted by Jenniferathome

I'm really surprised by the "boys will be boys" and "let is slide" comments. To me, this is not about taking a position on cross dressing or transgenderism or even gay politics. It's simply putting forth what you believe: standing up for what's right. Ignoramuses need to know they are an ignoramus. If this was about a black person or someone in a wheelchair, would you even hesitate? I can tell the difference between guy talk, a joke, and hate. Edmund Burke was right.

The TV news magazine 20/20 does a "What would you do" segment. I am always shocked at those who do nothing.

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I so wish we could upvote or like good posts around here.

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Originally Posted by amyjacks2014

^.^

Lorileah, you quoted me, but not my entire thought. I said if you are in the closet, your choices are either to do nothing and ignore the situation, OR making a general statement that makes your opinion known without drawing attention to yourself.

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Fully aware of what I quoted and still I have the question...why do you HAVE to be something to defend it? Closet or no...if someone insults or degrades anyone, you should make some sort of stand and since we are talking quotes

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We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.-Benjamin Franklin

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I sort of get a little confused when people say "Hey my co-workers, family, friends all are racist bigoted people but I don't want to anger them" Change it a bit "My (whatever) says that the (blank) family are all perverts and morons" And you happen to be a member of that family. Now is that a hill? I don't understand how any member of any minority would stand and take another or their own minority being cat called or degraded. But that's me...you see I don't think anyone is better than anyone else. You let people get away with it they will expand it. You don't have to come out of the closet or out yourself. All you have to say is "That isn't nice and you really should be more compassionate and tolerant"

Not sure I can add too much here that's not been shared already but I've had a few experiences like it.

For starters, a good handful of my co-workers know about me and are completely accepting. We've worked together for a good 12 years before any of them knew anything and we'd become friends. When I did tell a few about it (using my over-the-top Nurse Costume, I found nothing but acceptance. It changed nothing.

There are a few there that do not know however. It has come up from time to time at company lunches, etc.... and honestly, I love it when it does.

I get this shit-eating grin on my face and just look at them as they talk. They're not rude mind you, they joke around, the usual stuff... and I just go along with it for the most part until I hear a comment such as "mentally ill" or something.

It's then, when I'll chime in. With a dead serious face, I'll ask them "How would you know? Do you know one?... Would you know one if you met one?"

I don't tip my hand at this point and haven't yet. But it always catches them off guard... and I love it.

If they only knew... that longest standing employee, the one that puts the face to the product they sell... is one. Yessir.

LOL

This actually happened to me not too long ago while I was at lunch with coworkers at a local pizza place. A transgender/crossdresser walked in with some friends and my coworkers made remarks like "he-she" and "queer." I have heard coworkers make similar remarks before but this was the first time someone was actually being attacked. I felt saddened yet enraged and my emotions boiled over a bit :Angry3:. I told them this person was a person and how is this bothering you? I went into a little other culture talk and pointed out the women wearing pants was once against society They stopped but I'm not sure if my little speech did anything when I wasn't around.

I used to be in the "let it slide" category but I wasn't happy with myself to be honest. Now, I speaking of straight-up attacks not passing insignificant comments and I have no problem with not speaking up and letting it slide as I understand it may be difficult especially in a job setting and worries of retaliation/potential outing. It's just the non-accepting world won't change...the tg/cd in the pizza place would go on being attacked if I didn't speak out a little. My hope is the small victories will pave the way to acceptance.

I learned a looooong time ago to never pass up an opportunity to keep quiet. This may be one of them.
Joni

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Originally Posted by Mink

...would you joke about Black People or Jews in the workplace?...

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Sadly, some people still do.

I have to deal with this in my work and as a leader I have no problem with telling people that disrespect toward anyone is not acceptable. Doing so does not in any way "out" me.

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Originally Posted by jackie_p

For example, I have recently noticed that some new employees where I work have a tendency to make remarks or comments that are insensitive at least and possibly even offensive.

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Conversations that I've been a part of don't often turn to the subject of CDing or CDers (or TS or TG), but when they do, I've noticed a similar level of insensitivity. Most people in my and my SO's immediate lives do not know about my SO. Usually people treat it a joke although there might be one or two who are a little stronger in their opinions and express disapproval (men and women). I speak up and say that that people can't help being born the way they are so they shouldn't be made fun of.

What is interesting is that I am always the only one speaking up and when I do, the others go silent. They don't recant, they don't apologize. Yet when my SO and I go out, most people are not disrespectful. I've often wondered about the contrast between how people behave in front of us, and what they say when they do not know that my partner expresses the feminine gender.

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Originally Posted by Jenniferathome

I think the best response you can make is to ask this question,"if you child were gay or transgender, Would you say that to them?"

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Originally Posted by Cheryl Ann Owens

I have a friend in the guy circle who can't seem to get enough of making homophobic gay put-downs... There was a time he'd send emails and pictures of a gay nature. More than once I'd ask him in front of the others why he has such a big collection of gay porno in his files. I even said that I questioned his sexuality because he gets so many jollies from it.

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Personally I think the two above responses are the best; make it "personal," or for someone who's utterly obnoxious, start impuning their sexuality.

I’ve used both approaches in the past in relation to repeated homophobic rants… it usually works, or at least they stopped doing it when I'm within earshot! :heehee:

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Originally Posted by ReineD

...

What is interesting is that I am always the only one speaking up and when I do, the others go silent. They don't recant, they don't apologize. ...

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This is what is really disturbing. We all know what right is. I think the next step is to ask the silent others, "Do you disagree with me?" Make them commit to the issue.

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Originally Posted by Jenniferathome

...I think the next step is to ask the silent others, "Do you disagree with me?"...

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In certain situations this may be prudent, but know your audience before you do this. Ask this question to the wrong group and you'll get a "Go away and take your Political Correctness with you!" response. Not only won't this do any good, it will actually encourage others to do the wrong thing.

Think how reluctant that we, card-carrying members of the LGBT community, are to confront those who are insensitive. Now imagine how someone who doesn't have a vested interest would react when given the "Are you with me or a'gin me?" ultimatum. If they want to stay in good with the guys they might not give the reaction you expect.

Sometimes silence is the best reaction we can expect.

Move across the country to a more accepting city and job.

Oh, wait, that's not a normal reaction? haha

Love where I work now. Conversation is very clean.

For those not so lucky, the "close to home" or "in your shoes" method seems like it would work well. Between friends and family, I have no problem correcting them, but it was always more difficult at work. There was a TS where I worked previously, and I heard some less than nice things behind her back.

Jackie,

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Originally Posted by jackie_p

As an crossdresser / mildly transgender person who is out only to his wife, I find it difficult to support myself and others in open settings. For example, ...

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Independent of being a "crossdresser / mildly transgender person" do you find it difficult, in general to state and defend a position for non-gender related issues at work, say in a meeting where a decision is required and there is no clear best decision. How about away from work? Some people just do not handle banter/confrontation well. Some people are just shy or lack self confidence. Check out your local Toast Masters or local library for books on how to handle difficult people.

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Originally Posted by jackie_p

My problem is, I would like to say something but can't bring my self to open my mouth. I think there is a fear that if I mount a defense, that this will somehow out me to the company...
Jackie

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When I have seen people defend others, in a non-personal, confrontational manner, I believe most people gain respect for the person doing the defending.

Try a little redirection. Boys/gentlemen, your bantering, really put downs, is really a mild form of bullying. It may seem like harmless fun, but it does take its toll on people over time. We all have to work together, now and/or in the future. Mutual respect is part of the company culture and it is taken seriously here. We don't need anyone going postal.
Have a nice day!

Am I the only person seeing this as a simple feminist issue? These guys are exercising male privilege, call them out on it! Why does it have to be about TG folk? Why can't it be about how men still control 90% of our society, and THAT'S WRONG.

Huh?

This isn't a trans issue, it's a feminist issue. Approach it accordingly. If women are truly equal, there should be nothing at all wrong with men wearing women's clothes, and therefore no humor to be derived from it.

even a feminist would say she doesn't want HER boyfriend wearing yoga pants!

even going as far as calling it Creepy or DISGUSTING!

yes they get away with it!

somehow!