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I'm not exactly sure what that means. But, I know I'm not all that fluid. For me to have any chance of feeling the least bit fem? I have to go the whole 9 yards to see a female in my mirror!:daydreaming:
And, often that doesn't even work!:sad:
If u identify as gender fluid? How do u know u r? How fluid r u? And, how does that work?:battingeyelashes:
Curious minds need to know!:heehee:
That's a good question, Doc..... But me, I think the first time I ever saw the term "genderfluid" used was on this forum, so I Google'd it and from what I read, I don't identify as being gender fluid. I mean, I do spend the majority of my time in "male mode", except for times like right now, I'm lounging in a pair of gray tights and a women's nightgown. LOL But I do go out CD'd from time to time because it's very relaxing, enjoyable and I have a strong feminine side and a desire to present as a female sometimes when I'm out dressed.
But here's the first thing that popped up in the Google search results: Gender-fluid people are people whose gender changes over time. A gender-fluid person might identify as a woman one day and a man the next. They might also identify as agender, bigender, or another nonbinary identity.
I also have to go the whole 9 when I dress and I love seeing a woman looking back at me in the mirror. :bs: But, I don't have a full skinsuit like you have, (I would get way too hot in it, plus I like to feel the clothes that I'm wearing). LOL
Hope this helps. :)
The words "horses", "waters" and "leading" come to mind :whistling:.
I think the first thing one should understand is that gender identity isn’t by or is about clothing and whether or not appears full on femme or masculine. Gender identity isn’t determined by anatomy.
So whether or not a person dresses in clothing marketed for women doesn’t mean that person identifies as a woman.
For someone who is genderfulid in their gender identity, it’s my understanding that their mental and emotional state has them feeling more feminine or more masculine on any given day. The period can be as short as a few hours to as long as months or years I suppose.
Personally, I don’t fully understand but the best of my limited knowledge that is a watered down version of a genderfluid identity.
I used to apply terms like "genderfluid," "genderqueer," or "non-binary" to myself but not anymore. In order to be "genderfluid" one must have some idea of what gender means. If you ask a thousand CD/TGs what it means to be feminine/masculine you will get a thousand often radically different answers. So gender is just an idea, concept or whatever that is imposed upon us by our culture and is interpreted subjectively by each individual. My observation, and mea culpa, is that CDs/TGs tend to have an exaggerated interpretation of the gender idea. But gender doesn't really exist in the objective world. Of course, people can assume any identity they like. But what does it mean?
For me Gender Fluid is the ability to go one way or another. This is what I do. I slide gracefully from male to female and back again.
My 2 cents:
Like water is fluid, it flows the easiest path effortlessly. So to me when combined with "gender" . To me this would say that one can flow to either gender easily.
"Gender fluid", from my understanding, is a non-binary status, wherein someone who identifies as "GF", can appear as male one day, female another, or completely androgynous another.
A genderfluid individual is TOTALLY comfortable with themselves, and their public appearance depends on their mood.
And, to add more confusion to the mix.... A GF individual may find no issue with enjoying intimate relations with either men or women.
The term that confuses me, is.... genderqueer.
genderqueer
ADJECTIVE
denoting or relating to a person who does not subscribe to conventional gender distinctions but identifies with neither, both, or a combination of male and female genders.
NOUN
a person who does not subscribe to conventional gender distinctions but identifies with neither, both, or a combination of male and female genders.
docrobbysherry,
I am genderfluid and am happy to share some of my personal thoughts, though with the understanding I speak only for myself. There are a number of articles out there that discuss what genderfluidity means, as a definition, as well as a handful of articles and videos of others who are fluid talking about how that feels and what it means to them. For myself, I identify as fluid because the general definitions (though they may vary a little) and general descriptions others use to talk about how they think, feel, act, etc. as genderfluid pretty well match up with my own thoughts, feelings, etc. How I feel about my maleness and femininity changes, so that I feel I am male or female or both or in-between, and for me this is something that changes.
I'm not quite sure what you mean about "how does that work" as that, to me, can mean a lot of things (friendships, family relations, significant others, work, day to day life, time with others vs time alone, etc.). For me, I figure out how it works and what I need or want as things come, just navigating the world as anyone else, though with the difference of feeling of being male/female/both/in-between at different times.
Gender fluid includes a lot of variations in gender behavior. In a way it is the reverse of those who are either identifying as male or identifying as female and they are mutually exclusive for the most part. So, it seems to be a generalized term just as the broad, all inclusive definition of transgender includes all forms of gender variance of any kind. Not all definitions of transgender or gender fluid are that loose; some are quite restrictive.
I have always thought of myself as gender fluid. What does that look like? The expression of that is an almost complete freedom to express in a way that reflects the high degree of variability in my sense of self. I suspect that I am fairly evenly balanced between male identity and female identity patterns, but the exact blend at any moment depends on the circumstances of the moment. It is dynamic. Sort of like a chameleon, I adapt my expressed identity (sense of self) to fit the circumstances I find myself in. Often I "feel" as though I am both male and female to various degrees at the same time and when I am free to express those clues in my internal identity I will often mix and match in a way that shows the blend without using very pronounced mixing of clothing and jewelry or whatever. But at other times, in private, I must throw off as much maleness as I physically can and express as completely female, because that the condition of my variable gender oriented part of my sense of self. Sometimes, it is even confusing to me. The fact is, my internal gender compass needle moves around almost constantly but usually not so much that I feel I need to change clothes constantly. That would be crazy, so I mildly blend and most of the time that covers most circumstances. But sometimes my gender magnetic poles reverse completely and that creates a need to completely change to avoid a dysphoria attack.
Frankly there are so many terms being used these days that I'm just confused.
If my being able to be in male mode this morning and after lunch be in full femme mode is gender fluid then I suppose I am although my preferred mode is most certainly female.
Maybe I'm just out of the loop. This all began for me when we would simply be called "transvestite" then that became something of a derogatory term and used more in the porn industry and then I became a crossdresser.
I prefer to be called Cheryl. The rest is up to everyone else.
Gender fluid is a trendy term for those who wish to question the status quo around gender identity. It's more of a political statement than an actual identity. At the end of the day, we as a society are headed towards a future where humans will (hopefully) be valued for who we are, not what category we fit in. This push to break gender norms is the natural evolution of the gay rights movement, which picked up steam after the massive civil rights movement of the 20th century. People deserve to be judged on the content of their character, not the color of their skin - or who they sleep with or what kind of clothes they wear or what kind of reproductive equipment they have. I may role my eyes when I hear the words gender fluid, but I get the big picture. It's a good thing.
A very dear friend of mine has kindly referred to me as a girl ever since I came out to her. She looks back at my behavior (we were professional colleagues) and sees feminine attributes throughout my interactions with staff and patients. While it feels like an amazing compliment, I think there is a generous amount of filtering going on. I do not thing, honestly, that the behaviors she sees as feminine are quite so clear cut...nor exclusive to one gender or another. To further complicate the picture, my self acceptance of gender roles has swung rather wildly between the two extremes (passing accross myriad points on the arc of the pendulum.). I suppose thats a rather erratic and excessive expression of fluidity.
MonicaPVD,
Respecfully, as someone who is genderfluid, I have to say that my identity is real and valid and has nothing to do with politics or trends. Your statement is pretty offensive, actually, to suggest that I don't exist or that who I am is nothing but a political tactic or fashion trend. Another great example of what I talk about when I tell people how genderfluid people are marginalized and erased--even by others in the LGBT community. I think it's important for us in the LGBT community to stop attacking others like this. We can do better.
@Mezzanine
So explain, please, the differences between 'genderfluid', non-binary, and 'genderqueer'
This is something you can look up, but here is one resource to start:
https://www.healthline.com/health/gender-fluid
For me, it's about much more than clothing, but also gets at how i feel, how I think, how i act, how I relate to the world.
I would also say that public appearance for someone who is genderfluid is about more than just mood and can be influenced by anything that influences people in how they dress, such as social expectations, work requirements, general mood, etc.
Quote:
For me, it's about much more than clothing, but also gets at how i feel, how I think, how i act, how I relate to the world.
And that is felt by most transpeople, not the clothing, but attitudes, feelings, thoughts, and actions. I don't get excited by putting on my underwear and clothes, but I do feel comfortable and properly attired.
I'm a member of the board for my local PRIDE group, and I meet with people all over the LGBT+ spectrum, as well as engaging with straight folk who are looking for information, and I am often asked about the multitudes of labels that are used.
Some terms are easy to explain, others less so ( gay. lesbian, bi-, or trans- ). Some terms are considered offensive ( like tranny, 'he-she', 'chicks-with-xxxx', etc. ) Some are niche terms, such as 'drag queen', 'ladyboy', or 'crossdresser'. Yes, 'crossdresser', nothing wrong with it, not looking down on it, but it is mostly straight men who dress as women for reasons of personal satisfaction, whether that is sexual, or just a sense of comfort.
Adding to the confusion is the abundance of sexualities. Gay, Lesbian, Bi-, A- Pan-, Sapio-, and, IIRC, a hundred others. And I'm not even going to mention fetishes! And there is a HUGE overlap in these areas.
So when someone says they are 'genderfluid', 'genderqueer', or 'non-binary', I have to wonder what it is they exactly mean by that. It's similar to people who claim that they are not 'religious', but they are 'spiritual'. To me, the word is a placeholder, and a vague one at that.
@jodie_lynn
I have to say I generally am in agreement with how you phrase "gender fluid." I'm generally in that category (have always loved wearing lingerie and historically "femme" colors and patterns on my mens shirts) because it made me feel pretty, special, and feminine. For years I thought generally I belonged solely in the "fetish" or "crossdresser" category, but as time marches on and I've thought more about it, I realize that those words or concepts don't apply to me, or at least I don't want them to apply to me. I don't like the fetish language because it's far more than that, and for me I don't prefer the word "crossdresser" as a label for me personally because I grew up in an era when it was used in the context of someone being a deviant. Now I consider myself to be in that nebulous category of gender fluid/gender non-conforming because I feel at home when I express myself in a feminine way, but I still strongly identify as male.
I don't think I'm explaining it particularly well because in part I don't really know how to explain it. I guess the best way to phrase it is that I enjoy for instance wearing "women's" tops not just because I think they are really pretty and well designed, but also because I like the feminine emotions that I associate with wearing them.
Anyway, I still struggle with what label applies to me. As you say JL, I agree it's a bit of a placeholder, and in many ways a very vague one at that. It's difficult though because there are LOTS of very specific terms used to describe gender these days, and more coming. Gender expansive, gender nonconforming, gender euphoric etc. etc. It's like every university is competing to see who can come up the newest gender term!
Whatever term you use, though, and I am very much speaking to and in support of @mezzanine here - it's a bit silly to think that we have to ask for much less receive permission from a LGBTQ+ steering committee to decide whether any of us belongs in much less is actually a part of that community. If you identify in a way that falls outside of traditional cisgender, heterosexual norms, then you are a part of the LGBTQ community. That at least is how I look at it.
If you want to disagree with that statement, that's fine. But it doesn't change my belief that someone can or should characterize themselves however they deem appropriate.
vanphair, why would I disagree with your statement? And in no way did I state that people shouldn't characterize, or label themselves in any way they see fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by vanphair
And I totally agree with your sentiment that there seems to be new labels coming out everyday.
BUT, you have to be able to explain what you mean by the terms you use to describe yourself and others. It's akin to the thread I started where I asked "what does it mean, to 'feel like a woman?'" How do you quantify that? If someone stated "I feel like a botfly larvae", would you just nod, or would you ask for clarity?
As example, when asked my political stance, I tell people that I am an anarchistic monarchist and when they ask what that means, I tell them "I want to be Queen, but no one has to listen to me".
Language needs to be precise, so that we can all communicate effectively. If I say the word "tree", we may all have a mental image of different species of trees, but we all know what we mean. I don't have to explain the concept of 'tree' to my listener. So if someone identifies as a "non-binary, genderfluid, sapiosexual, introverted translesbian" , expect people to say "WTF does THAT mean?"
Sorry that you are offended. You be you, and I'll always respect you for who you are. Regardless of what label you wish to attach to your identity. I stand by my statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mezzanine
Jodie-Lynn: That’s the first time I’ve heard the word ‘sapiosexual.’ I had to google it, LOL.
In my view, arguing over labels when gender variance is pretty much a continuum that is a part of the larger continuum of gender in general is kind of pointless. A continuum means ever point on the continuum is functionally related to the adjacent points which are functionally related to their adjacent points and the whole thing is multi-dimensional.
In other words there are not well defined points where there is a break in variation. Boundaries become arbitrary and fuzzy. Everything blends into everything else. One can put labels on portions that have selected specific differences but the selection of the differences cannot be considered well defined units. Gender fluid, non-binary, genderqueer or whatever else one might come up with are synthetic and artificial and only have meaning when carefully defined with respect to the exact characteristics AND are recognized as units defined for discussion only and do not necessarily represent natural divisions. The fact that none of the three have precise generally agreed upon definitions that distinguish them indicates they are just different perspectives based on individual biases for individual purposes.
Gretchen,
I guess some of the heated in-fighting is down to finding and identifying ourselves , sometimes we have no one outside the TG community to debate or argue the point with . We may have a slightly different history so think we are different but in fact we aren't that different when it comes down to living in the RW . It's a lesson I've learned now I'm out full time , the public will tar us with the same brush depending on our appearance and most will ignore any labels we choose to use . I can't remember the last time I told someone I'm TG , they are either comfortable with you are they're not . Personally I would think very hard about being out if my one label was " Weird "
@Jodie_Lynn - to be clear I wasn't saying *you* were disagreeing with my comments. It was a royal "you" - as in if anyone disagrees with my comments, that's fine. Doesn't really bother me whether people agree with me or not.
The simple point I was trying to make is that not everyone fits in a neat category, and quite possibly not everyone uses the same term in a different way. I have a hard time understanding who I am, so you can imagine how difficult it is to explain who I am to others. Sometimes you just go with the best approximation possible.
Anyway, long story short, I fall on the easygoing side of these things. I don't really take offense at anyone's position or thoughts. If you feel comfortable using a certain term, go ahead. Whatever. It's your life, define it as you see fit. If someone wants to asks questions or needs more info, then okay sure ask questions.
PS my favorite fancy new term is "demi-sexual", which is defined as "only feeling attracted to someone you have a deep emotional connection with." Umm, when I was growing up that was called "falling in love." LOL.
@vanphair
Friggin labels, right?
Ya see, some terms confuzzle me.
For instance, what is the difference between bisexual, and pansexual?
Quote:
Definition of pansexual
1: of, relating to, or characterized by sexual or romantic attraction that is not limited to people of a particular gender identity or sexual orientation
Pansexual people are attracted to all kinds of people, regardless of their gender, sex or presentation. ? Farhana Khan
also : not solely homosexual or heterosexual
The famous 0-6 scale ? was devised to chart sexual proclivities, from purely heterosexual (0) to purely homosexual (6). Kinsey felt humans are pansexual (most falling somewhere between 0 and 6), and restrictions imposed by society and religion lead to sexual maladjustments. ? Lisa C. Hickman
2: tending to suffuse all experience and conduct with erotic feeling
Quote:
Definition of bisexual
1a see usage paragraph below : of, relating to, or characterized by sexual or romantic attraction to people of one's same sex and of the opposite sex
also : of, relating to, or characterized by sexual or romantic attraction to people of one's own gender identity and of other gender identities
2: of, relating to, involving, or characteristic of both sexes
Seriously? Demi-sexual, that's a thing? Hilarious. Thanks for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by vanphair
I think that one of the problems is that the term aren't all well defined.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jodie_Lynn
For example, in biologic taxonomy, you have Koala Bears, Panda Bears, Polar Bears and Grizzly Bears. Are they all Bears. Not quite. Koala Bears are marsupials. Panda Bears are more closely related to red pandas, raccoons, otters and skunks than true (Ursa) bears.
In the same way, the taxonomy of LGBTQ+ is also unclear in many areas.
The difference between Bisexual and Pansexual (IMHO): Bisexuals (bi meaning 2) are attracted to (only) (manly) men or (feminine) women. Pansexuals (pan meaning all) are attracted to the entire spectrum of men and women and anything in between. I know a GG who classifies herself as pansexual and married a MtF transexual.
Another anomaly. What is the definition of bisexual? Think about a GG married to a man who had a romantic GF in college. If you've only had one same sex romantic relationship, are you forever Bi? How many opposite sex romantic relationships do you need to become hetero (again)?
I think this thread does more to divide us than unify us, and I think that we should be unified on the spectrum.
I think the phrase "distinction without a difference" comes to mind re bi vs pan.
Then again, for some people it's a critical distinction and so if that's how they want to be referred to, it's no skin off my nose. As long as I don't get "cancelled" for saying the wrong thing!
My ex who left me for women, a few later announced she was gay, Steffi. When I asked her why she never told me she was bi, she replied:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sometimes Steffi
"I told u I had a fling with a girlfriend in college.":eek:
So, apparently one affair CAN change your sexual orientation!:devil:
Good greef
So you started with a question about gender fluid.
They did a good job about defining it. It has to do with how you see yourself.
I use it or it has been used to describe how I represent. They are not always the same.
It is a very confusing thing. I don't spend anytime thinking about it as it is not a problem for me. No one I know on the street cares about this stuff.
Honestly I don't feel like any gender. I prefer to represent female. So I live as Jean, I only do guy mode for work, and I'm out, they know.
I'm also BI as are both of my boyfriend's.
For me the equipment really just doesn't matter. It has to do with the person and how they see me. I know again, no one cares and very confusing.
To simplify my life I have chosen to only date men.
Yes I have turned down women including a proposal for marriage.
And I don't care I'm wearing white if I ever get married again.
I have no idea what label Ide have. I love women and the idea of a very pretty tgirl also gets me going. Im into femininity.
Thank you Jean. I think you have expressed it well. It is a personal thing and the label we apply doesn't really define us because most people don't understand what the labels mean any more than they can relate to what we feel and experience. Cisgender people are often very confused when we describe that gender variability we can experience in our daily lives. I often wonder how in the world cisgender people get along sensing only one narrow part of the gender spectrum. I catch myself thinking, "That must be really boring." Yet for them it certainly is not. It is easy for both of us to live the life we live because that is who we are and there are no rules that say anybody has to understand how someone else actually, really feels. It all kind of goes back to the title of that immensely popular book "I'm OK, You're OK." In other words don't be judgemental just because you don't understand what makes someone else do what they do. They probably don't actually understand what it is that make you do what you do either.
Therein lies the problem with labels - they assume you know, quite precisely, what the label means. I think Doc's (Sherry's) original question represents just that kind of thing. What does gender fluid mean? It really is a confusing label because our society is so locked into the idea that gender is "fixed" according to the gender binary concept that has been used for the last few thousand years. Yet in all that time there certainly were people that experienced a kind of "fluid" shifting of their gender identity - they just kept it a secret. It existed without a label. It probably goes back to our most distant ancestors maybe 150,000 years ago.
I imagine two early humans who have a common language, both are male. One asks, "I am just curious. Why in the world do you sometimes act so much like a girl? It is really creepy." The other answers, "I have no idea. It is just the way I am. But I could ask you why you don't do that?" The first says, "Because I don't feel that way." The second the says, "Huh. I guess we just feel differently. So, maybe that is all there is to it. We are different in that way."
We are all different and we all feel different things regarding our gender or our sexuality or how we feel when we see something that is of a particular color or shape or whatever. It is just the way it is. We can all learn from it even though we may never be able to truly understand each other.
I know i have always been different. Even as a little child, I was different,and bullied at shools, and at home by siblings. I am different, and not sure why, and a Highly Sensitive. Has made my life torture and torment. I do not fit in anywhere well,and have few close friends, and no SO, and at age 66, like being alone now.
While a guy and even a tomboy might enjoy floral arrangements, give them a chance to work on an engine and I guess the flowers will be forgot very quickly - this would be non fluid for me.
My trans friend "could fix a car engine" but hated the thought of getting her nails dirty - again, non fluid
The ultimate fluid for me, would be a black belt karate lumberjack, crossdressed in ultra fem clothing and enjoying needle point.
Well Rachel, I've added tranny fluid to my car before without getting my hands too dirty!
Sherry I know that I am off topic but do you know where the phrase "the whole 9 yards" came from? Here is the answer for you. In WWII British pilots would fly over to Germany and shoot at things with the machine guns in their airplanes. When they would come back from a mission the ground crews would ask them how their mission went. The pilots would answer "I gave them the whole nine yards". The reason they said that was because the ammo chain for their machine guns were nine yards long.
Hmm ... I always thought the whole 9 (cubic) yards was what a fully loaded dump truck could carry. So, when you said that you wanted the whole 9 (cubic) yards, you wanted the dump truck to empty its full load.
Water always flows down hill - it never goes uphill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joyce Swindell
So, are generfluid and sexual identity related, or unrelated?
An excellent question, Alexis! Not being fluid in either one? I really don't know! Maybe someone who is will reply?:thumbsup:
I consider myself gender fluid. Wen I'm out, say at the grocery store, I often admire what women are wearing, like their necklace or nail polish. Sometime, I'm even brave enough to talk to them about it. And, that's the key. boy me pins the scale on introversion, but Steffi is an extrovert. So, when "I" start a conversation with some random GG in the grocery store, it's not boy me who's having the discussion, but Steffi. Only Steffi would go up to some random stranger and start a conversation,
So, I can switch back and forth from boy to girls in a few minutes. When Steffi is "out and about", she looks like and act's like a girl, but one who is still attracted to GGs. There was one time where Steffi actually asked a GG out on a date. There was another time when Steffi kissed a GG a few time in a bar.