Is the world today leaving us here behind?

[PaulaQ]

What would we have a federal injunction against a wife's DADT policy delivered by a U.S. attorney? Should we have police fine or arrest people who points and laughs at a CDer in public? I wouldn't want to live in that society. The fundamental right that allows us to express ourselves through cross-dressing is the same right that allows people to feely have a contrary opinion to our cross-dressing.

Of course not.

I understand this is hard to imagine, but imagine a world where you could tell women this stuff, and have a decent chance of it being acceptable because women who do like this, few though they may be, would feel free to talk about it themselves, and actively seek such partners. That's what wider acceptance could get you.

I'm sorry so many of you don't see the benefits of being out has had for the broader LGBT community. I think it's kind of sad that some of you who do know those benefits deny them for whatever reasons you have. But look, it's your lives. If you think staying hidden, conforming to a world with standards that don't really seem to fit people like you, is the way of the future, then I guess you aren't being left behind. If you think gays and lesbians were MUCH better off in the closet, if you think anti-crossdressing laws were THE BOMB, then maybe all this coming out stuff is really a terrible idea. Maybe you have fun hiding? That wasn't my experience, but hey, that's just me.

As for any agenda I might have, or feeling that CDs need to be out for the same reasons as transsexuals, that's just silly. Honestly, the case for people like me who do identify solidly as women (or men, for the trans guys) is easier if we ignore crossdressers. Talking about y'all really muddies the water. Doesn't help that there's a certain amount of prejudice against you in some segments of the trans community. The sex stuff that goes on with CDers is viewed as making you not legitimate in the eyes of some trans people I've spoken with. (You have no idea how frustrating it is to talk with a couple of transitioning former drag queens and listen to them badmouth CDs. Talk about hypocrisy.) There are plenty of us who'd throw y'all under the bus to help our own cause. All I can tell you is that as someone who's lived through being thrown under the bus, I suspect that should that happen, you might not like it very much. And history and human nature being what they are, that's probably what will happen, unless some of you stand up for yourselves. Believe me, given some of the past history some CD groups treated those of us who transition, there are some who'd argue y'all have it coming, and deserve nothing.

Oh - and for those of you who think I do this for some type of self-aggrandizement? The only way you'll get rid of someone like me who you perceive to be a self-serving fool who talks about your issues to serve their own purposes is to stand up and speak for yourselves. Otherwise, you're left with people like me doing it for you, for whatever reasons we might choose to do it. You're WELCOME!

If you are interested in why I care about CDs at all, the actual reason is very simple. A number of folks who identify as CDs now are, in fact, trans women. That certainly was my experience. Some number of them die rather than come out and be their true selves. The culture of secrecy some of y'all seem to be promoting kills people. It also makes certain aspects of your lives less pleasant, in my opinion. The inability to tell who's a CD and who's a transsexual, until that person transitions, means that some people like me are ensconced amongst your highly closeted ranks. The ones who can't get past the shame to come out and transition often have really terrible endings. And that I cannot abide. I will also add that I've talked to a great many of you. Very few of you seem terribly happy, and quite a number seem pretty miserable. I hate that, and it makes me hope for changes that would better your lives. Really I hope and pray for changes that will better ALL of our lives.

[Lorileah]

I have read this thread 4 times (not that I wanted to because it is like Deja Vu all over again for a lot of us) and the answer is Come out or don't. Stay in the closet or don't. You don't see the advances of even the last 5 years. 20 years ago, I was in the closet to all except my wife. Then I went out...I knew that everyone I saw would point and jeer and the police would come and arrest me and that I would be locked up and be put on drugs and shocked and...no one noticed. Why? Because the CDs and TSs before me had laid ground work. I benefited from people, like the Ts at Stonewall, who did stand up. From Rene Richards. From the gays and lesbians who grew tired of sneaking and hiding and pretending. I did. My first "outing" one person talked to me that I didn't know...they asked directions. But my fears were overblown. I have been a puppet a pirate and a poet (I have been a closet CD and Out Cd and levels of TS). I can be me now. 30 years ago, I couldn't or it would have been dangerous for me. Now I still watch but I am less worried. Why? Because people went before me.

No, we don't need ever CD to come out. In fact we don't need ANY CDs to come out. The TSs community doesn't have that choice, and by default, the whole community gains. But that's OK. Not every person in 1775 America fought the war. It worked out. Not every woman fought of equal pay and equal rights, it worked out. Not every gay wanted marriage or adoption, it worked out. As someone once said, someone has to stand on the curb and cheer the parade as it passes.

So come out if you want to. Or don't. But please don't throw roadblocks in my path either. I'll try and not make your road as rough. Fair nuff?

[ReineD]

You bring up good points, Emma!

Prejudice works best when a minority can be dehumanised.

This is true, and in recent years transition has indeed been un-dehumanized (is this a word? ). It has not been illegal or considered pathological in decades. The NYT had a front page article last Sunday, stating that about 30% of Fortune 500 companies now offer transgender-inclusive health care benefits, up from 0 in 2002. There is wide support in the media for the rights of TSs to transition and be happy. But still, a departure from dehumanization does not necessarily lead to full support and embrace. How does this translate to individuals who come across TSs in their day-to-day lives; would a small company in the South or in more rural areas of blue states still want to hire a TS? What about classrooms all over the country, would they hire a TS? Will a GG or GM still want to marry her? Have a look in the TS section to see how difficult it still is, despite the changes in anti-discrimination laws. Have a look at comments below online articles about public transitioners. People may be brought to tolerate and be civil in a world that is becoming more crowded and diverse and basic rights may be guaranteed (health care, shelter, etc), but will people stop thinking of TSs as being "different" and include her in all aspects of their lives as they do people who have no gender issues? If it's happening, it is happening very slowly.

Granted, I'm speaking from the POV of someone in her 50s who is exposed to more ignorance than you care to shake a stick at. Maybe the Millenials are even more advanced than most of the people in my generation. Would a 23 year-old GG be more willing to marry a young TS today? Would she want her TS fiancée to maintain male sexual functioning if she wants kids or would she be happy to adopt. And if she wants her own kids, what would that do to the young TS's sense of identity if she felt a deep sense of angst over having male genitalia and using it like a man.

And the above speaks only of MtFs who change to live publicly and legally as women 100% of the time, which at least conforms to the notion of binary-gender that most people are familiar with and live by! Society still looks askance at people who want to switch back and forth. They don't understand why someone would only want to dress part-time, which brings us to your next comment:

If you are right, Reine, then there is no hope for CDers and it is probably best if they stop wanting acceptance and just accept that they are lost.

They are not lost. Most CDers already know this, if they are happy with a supportive spouse and not coming out at work and in their neighborhoods ... (instead, they go out dressed to the next town over). My SO is happy. Most don't even dress full-time at home, even if they can! They don't expect to be embraced as a female to everyone, because they're not female and they don't want to be female. They want safety and a lack of verbal abuse when out among strangers, which already exists for the most part. But, should they want to come out as CDers to everyone in their lives, what does this mean, really - that they'd want to reject their maleness, go to work dressed and dress full time in their home towns? Then they'd no longer be CDers, would they.

Even the very progressive Canadian Armed Forces has a rule: either you switch to full-time or you don't dress at all.

Did it really take 100% of women to start wearing pants to make it normal. I doubt 100% of women wear pants now. More likely it became acceptable long before the majority joined in.

Well, in the places I live in and visit (in Canada and the US), almost 100% of women wear pants a great majority of the time except when they want to dress up, which is only occasionally. As to the history, women adopted pants so quickly that admittedly it's hard to tell if it took 100% for the pant-wearing to become universally acceptable. It did seem to have mushroomed everywhere during WWII, first at work in manufacturing plants and in casual social situations (while still wearing dresses for office work and church) and then it slowly morphed to wearing pants all the time within several decades. This is because an overwhelming majority of women wanted to wear pants, as opposed to a small percentage of birth-males who want to wear dresses. Still, had only 1%-3% of women worn the pants while others refused to wear them because they were ideologically opposed to the practice (if they saw pants as being men's wear and an indication they were no longer feminine), then the women who wore the pants would have been considered "different" and would have suffered social consequences as the result.

Have a look at someone's Word Press article of the switch from skirts to pants:
https://weeklysilence.wordpress.com/...s-to-trousers/


====================

Oops, Lori I was working on this post when you posted yours. I don't know if you meant the conversation should end.

[ReluctantDebutant]

I understand this is hard to imagine, but imagine a world where you could tell women this stuff, and have a decent chance of it being acceptable because women who do like this, few though they may be, would feel free to talk about it themselves, and actively seek such partners. That's what wider acceptance could get you.

This world isn't hard to imagine, Paula, because we already live in it. For a while now there have been dating sites specifically geared toward cross-dressers and the women who love them. Even many mainstream dating sites have this option in the choices it allows. The problem with this is that you usually find that the only thing in common is cross-dressing which isn't a good start for a lasting relationship. I can't speak for others but I would personally like to have a connection based on more fundamental values.

I'm sorry so many of you don't see the benefits of being out has had for the broader LGBT community. I think it's kind of sad that some of you who do know those benefits deny them for whatever reasons you have. But look, it's your lives. If you think staying hidden, conforming to a world with standards that don't really seem to fit people like you, is the way of the future, then I guess you aren't being left behind. If you think gays and lesbians were MUCH better off in the closet, if you think anti-crossdressing laws were THE BOMB, then maybe all this coming out stuff is really a terrible idea. Maybe you have fun hiding? That wasn't my experience, but hey, that's just me.

This is such a false dichotomy I do not know where to begin. The fact that many cross-dressers feel comfortable not being out means they prefer gays and lesbians in the closet and anti-crossdressing laws? Or perhaps these cross-dressers are just making personal decisions tailored to their own life and can be quite happy for other cross-dressers who make different decisions? They can simply enjoy a world where the can come out if they choose but just happen not to choose? Maybe many of us do in fact have fun "hiding" as you put it. It doesn't have to be your experience and we all know it's not just you. There are plenty of examples of CDs and TSs who are out and about having a good time. They will be followed by those still "hiding" who care to.

Oh - and for those of you who think I do this for some type of self-aggrandizement? The only way you'll get rid of someone like me who you perceive to be a self-serving fool who talks about your issues to serve their own purposes is to stand up and speak for yourselves. Otherwise, you're left with people like me doing it for you, for whatever reasons we might choose to do it. You're WELCOME!

Note: Still not seeing a denial of the self-aggrandizing

Could someone please enlighten me as to the oppression that cross-dressers like myself are supposedly under? What about myself am I to speak up about? To whom do I need to be speaking to? And why should they care? Wouldn't cross-dressers issues come up organically in the cross-dresser community? Wouldn't this thread be pointless if there was a real universal feeling among cross-dressers of oppression? We wouldn't need to be told by outside elements that we to rally and start a movement. We would be speaking for ourselves already. We should just be happy we don't live in such a dire situation. Sure we have a few problems but they are mostly small and individual. I don't think the CD community is likely to submit to an injustice being perpetrated on it. I give it more credit then that.

If you are interested in why I care about CDs at all, the actual reason is very simple. A number of folks who identify as CDs now are, in fact, trans women. That certainly was my experience. Some number of them die rather than come out and be their true selves. The culture of secrecy some of y'all seem to be promoting kills people. It also makes certain aspects of your lives less pleasant, in my opinion. The inability to tell who's a CD and who's a transsexual, until that person transitions, means that some people like me are ensconced amongst your highly closeted ranks. The ones who can't get past the shame to come out and transition often have really terrible endings. And that I cannot abide. I will also add that I've talked to a great many of you. Very few of you seem terribly happy, and quite a number seem pretty miserable. I hate that, and it makes me hope for changes that would better your lives. Really I hope and pray for changes that will better ALL of our lives.

I haven't seen anyone promote a culture of secrecy and certainly not one that kills people. No one has advocated that all cross-dressers have to stay in the closet just that cross-dressers who do stay closeted aren't cowards, letting down the community, and I guess now not responsible for the deaths of closeted TS. Sure secrecy can make some of life's aspects less pleasant, most trade offs do. Marriage takes away the pleasantries of bachelorhood but you gain companionship in return. Charity take away extra time and or money away but gives back in other ways. Tradeoffs are just a part of life you have to trust a person to know best what tradeoffs are good for their life. Yeah cross-dressing can make one feel bad especially someone like me who wants to look like a cross between Christina Hendricks and Sofia Vergara but I look like a cross between Rick Moranis and Danny DeVito. To be honest you don't sound happy yourself, Paula, and you transitioned. What can we gather from that? Not much You really can't judge a person by how they write about a single aspect of their lives on such message board as this without knowing more about their lives. Your wife hates your cross-dressing write about it on Crossdressers.com you went out in your new 40' boat and caught a 400lb marlin you go write about it Sportsfisher.com.

We all hope for better lives but it is up to ourselves to make it better.

[heatherdress]

After watching this thread ramble on and on, I do appreciate Reine's (and a few others') multiple attempts to achieve some harmony and mutual understanding. Unfortunately, this thread seems to be derisive and insulting to many. It is hardly heady or intellectual or inspiring.

A few have hijacked this thread and repeatedly put down crossdressers who have no desire to go public. Honestly, if someone wants to wear women's panties or nighties occasionally, is it really expected that they should proclaim their behavior? Is it realistic or even possible for all crossdressers - to "come out" - as if we are some sort of uniform group? We are such a diverse group that members here should understand and respect our diversity and our differences of opinion and not try to belittle the majority of crossdressers who prefer anonymity.

Personally, it is not a "problem" for me - that I want privacy. It is my right. I also do not feel that any one else speaks for me, as they believe they do, especially someone promoting their own beliefs and agendas which some of us might not agree with. I wish them luck and I do support the common goals and freedoms that are identified in these threads - but I will do so in my own way.

[PaulaQ]

I'm sorry that some of you may feel I've insulted you because you have no desire to come out. Please let me be clear - I understand why you don't want to come out. It is a terrifying prospect to most - it certainly was to me. A person takes a great risk coming out. Some of you would, without question, lose a lot. I know this because I lost a lot when I came out, and many people I know have lost more than I did. My story is here on this forum. You can read it - you can see what I lost. No, my story isn't the worst. Yes, what I went through still hurt a lot. Believe me, I know full well what I am suggesting that some of you do. I've done it. Odds are, many of you would lose less than many trans women lose.

I certainly don't think less of any of you for not wanting to come out. I fully understand your reticence - I deal with people pretty much continuously who have little choice but to come out, yet are terrified to do this. Even when they are in situations where it's extremely likely they will be accepted with relatively few issues, many TSs will hesitate to come out. You are not cowards - I've never used that word in this thread. It is a genuinely terrifying prospect, coming out.

Gays and lesbians are, by the way, a diverse group. For that matter, so are bisexuals and transgender people. These groups band together because there are common goals that help all of them. So I think the notion that the myriad scenarios of crossdressing makes any common goals impossible just isn't true.

As for your right to privacy, that is indeed yours. No one is going to out you. (Although some gays did this to one another in the early days. I feel such tactics are highly unethical, and I could never condone such things.)

I completely get that not everyone is in a position to be some sort of activist, really, rather few are. This is true in all other parts of the LGBT community too. Quietly asserting who you are to at least a few people in your lives could make a difference. It certainly has for gay and lesbian people. And that is really all I'm suggesting - because it has unarguably lead to progress for millions of LGBT people. I'm sort of surprised that so many of you don't see any parallels between their situations and your own. Or perhaps I'm not. I think a lot of you believe you are the cis-normative, hetero-normative people you present as in public. Many of you see yourselves as straight, manly men, no different from other men. Unfortunately, that just isn't the case - if it were the case, you wouldn't feel so compelled to keep this private. I don't mean this to be insulting - I really don't. I'm sure that many of you will find that insulting, though. I am genuinely sorry about that. You aren't like other guys for reasons that really do not matter, in my opinion. Unfortunately, in the minds of many others, your differences DO matter. And that's what coming out does for you - it gives you a chance to define who you are, rather than other people doing it for you. I think many of you see yourselves as very different from other LGBT people - this has been a historic thing with CD groups. I don't think it's a particularly healthy perspective. No, you aren't gay, lesbian, bisexual - and no, you aren't getting a sex-change. But you face stigma, same as they have - and that stigma from others is the unifying thing.

I'm sorry if you find it insulting that I suggest that the world IS leaving you behind because most of you won't do this, but I believe I have laid out a fairly good case that it is. I don't mean for that to be insulting, either. I guess nobody said you had to keep up with other LGBT folks.

BTW, I never said y'all are responsible for trans suicides. But I believe that because very few straight people understand that gender variant people are MUCH more common than they realize (hence all of you...), many trans people are trapped by the same kinds of shame that many of you routinely report. Only in their case, it's fatal. A greater understanding that transgender people of all sorts exist, including crossdressers, would help this situation.

I wish them luck and I do support the common goals and freedoms that are identified in these threads - but I will do so in my own way.

One has to ask - what would you do to support such common goals and freedoms? I ask because historically, a lot of the freedoms CDs enjoy to dress in public, at least for those who choose to do such things, to be accepted in public accommodations, have been largely won by other transgender people, primarily those of us who transition or who are otherwise out. There are a lot more of you than there are trans women and men. A LOT more. Trans causes are typically badly funded, understaffed, and dwarfed in scale by gay and lesbian organizations. So what do you do to help?

I'll leave you with one last thought:

I am not gay. I do not want a sex-change or anything along those lines. I like being a straight guy. I love being your husband.
I don’t rob banks or kill people, nothing criminal. I think I’m pretty normal, except….

Why do you think Jenniferathome had to include the parts about not being gay, and not wanting a sex change? Why are these such common questions that spouses ask? I'll tell you why - because they have no other frame of reference for a gender variant male other than "gay", "drag queen", or "transsexual". And why don't they, as a rule, these women you marry, just chime in "oh, you're just a crossdresser? Well hell, that's no big deal, my uncle Lou(ise) was one!" I'll tell you why that rarely happens, and it's because very few people know y'all exist, or know much about you because y'all aren't out, and aren't sharing your stories. So the only stories your spouses are hearing are those of gay men, drag queens, and transsexuals.

[Zooey]

So, at the risk of being more than a bit inflammatory...

I think it's REALLY interesting to take the response to TS women - one of whom (PaulaQ) is almost certainly the biggest ally you have amongst us, at least here - coming over here to comment on something we know a lot about, and compare it against the language used by CDs when they come into the TS forum and start commenting. It's fascinating to me when people expect us to lump them in with us on important issues (like restroom access) and will go on for days about how we're actually all the same/it's a spectrum/we're just "further along"/blah blah blah, but will then declare incessantly that they're DEFINITELY NOT THE SAME AS US AT ALL and that we're being unfair/unreasonable/etc. by suggesting that they might actually need to participate publicly if they want in on those conversations.

I know that's not everybody here, or even all of the CDs who come into the TS forum, but it's a thing.

[ReineD]

... coming over here to comment on something we know a lot about,

Well, you all know a great deal about transition. But, how much do you understand about people who don't want to transition.

.
and compare it against the language used by CDs when they come into the TS forum and start commenting. It's fascinating to me when people expect us to lump them in with us on important issues (like restroom access) and will go on for days about how we're actually all the same/it's a spectrum/we're just "further along"/blah blah blah, but will then declare incessantly that they're DEFINITELY NOT THE SAME AS US AT ALL and that we're being unfair/unreasonable/etc. by suggesting that they might actually need to participate publicly if they want in on those conversations.

There are lots of levels to the CDing, and then there are people who think they might be or they want to be TS. I dare say that the people who say they don't want to transition or out themselves to everyone are not the same people who post in the TS section that there is no difference between TSs and CDers?

This place is just sooo varied that it's impossible to make sweeping statements.

Seriously, you should just go back to the threads in the TS section you're thinking about, and see if the CDers who posted there, posted something different in this thread? I could be wrong, but it would be a good exercise.

[Zooey]

Well, you all know a great deal about transition. But, how much do you understand about people who don't want to transition.

I think quite a bit, actually. That said, what I was referring to were the consequences of being out, and what it takes to actually build support and respect in the public world.

[ReineD]

But you have transitioned. Aren't you talking about building support and respect as you integrate fully (not part-time) as a woman socially and professionally?

What a lot of people here are saying is, they don't want to integrate fully as women, because they are not women. They may want to present as women sometimes under some circumstances, and present as men at other times under different circumstances.

Those who do present as women sometimes, like my SO, go out and enjoy themselves. People are already respectful. If they disagree with what my SO is doing, they keep their opinions to themselves. At the same time there is no desire to come out at work, because my SO is not interested in working as a female. Nor is my SO interested in coming out to his family of origin. He is not a woman, he enjoys being a male who explores her femininity occasionally.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

I'm not saying that all CDers are like my SO. There may well be a few who want to present as women 100% of the time. But if they do, then honestly are they CDers or are they TS?

So basically, gender presentation does not always correlate with gender identity, especially with people who post the majority of the time in the CD section ... else they'd be posting in the TS section (provided they felt accepted there).

[AmandaM]

It's easy to get on a soapbox when you have nothing left to lose.

[emma5410]

The original theme of this thread was about CDers being left behind. Gays and lesbians, and now increasingly, TS are becoming accepted. Not everywhere and not by everyone. It is a process. It takes time as it did, and is still doing, for gays and lesbians but it is slowly happening. Even the non binary are making progress. Small and slow though it is.

The CDers still face prejudice and ridicule. That they do is wrong and crazy. How you present and dress should be your business. But as Paula as tried to patiently explain it will never change unless CDers take action.
Do not take action for the sake of the TS. Although greater visibility of CDers would probably help, we are already doing it for ourselves. Take action for the sake of other CDers. Take action to protect yourself if you are ever outed by accident or by a SO. Take action so we can all live in a saner and more accepting world.

That does not mean all of you. Compared to Paula I do very little. But I am living full time and I am very visible. That in itself makes a difference.

I was the first TS patient my GP had ever had. I was the first TS in my company and family. The first TS 99% of the people I came out to had ever met. It was hard (I hope) for them to put me into a little box as a freak, as a potential bathroom rapist, as delusional etc because they already knew me and knew (again I hope) those things were not true. They were forced to deal with me as a friend and as a human being who just happened to be TS. One or two had a problem but the majority were fine and now those seem to have come around as well. I know it is not always that easy but it was easier for me because of those who had gone before and those who are active and visible now. It was easier for me because of the people who had come out quietly before and because of people like Paula who devote so much time and effort to change things now.

I know what it is like to be terrified of coming out. I lived with that fear for decades until the fear of what would happen if I did not transition became greater. Zooey is right. The TS section has a lot of CDers who come on to it complaining about being hidden and not having rights and freedoms. That often spills over into blaming TS for going stealth. The question is where are they in this thread? Why do they never challenge their fellow CDers?

It's easy to get on a soapbox when you have nothing left to lose.

That is very true and a very good point but if more people got on the soapbox now then maybe people like you would not have to worry about losing eveything in the future.

[Zooey]

But you have transitioned. Aren't you talking about building support and respect as you integrate fully (not part-time) as a woman socially and professionally?

What a lot of people here are saying is, they don't want to integrate fully as women, because they are not women. They may want to present as women sometimes under some circumstances, and present as men at other times under different circumstances.

<snip>

So basically, gender presentation does not always correlate with gender identity, especially with people who post the majority of the time in the CD section ... else they'd be posting in the TS section (provided they felt accepted there).

Correct - I'm building support and respect as a full-time woman, which is presumably different from the support and respect that CDs would be interested in building. My point was simply that I know quite a bit about what it's like having to educate people about me, and I know what it's like to have to allow myself to get hurt in the short term in order to work with people in a positive way so that the future is better, both for me and those who might follow in my footsteps in my company/studio.

To Paula's point, I would expect that (based on posts here and people I know) CDs would be working primarily towards increasing social acceptance of variant gender presentation, and I believe the majority of CDs who "go out" (many/most of which are currently still closeted, but taking a risk) would/should take an interest in bathroom access issues. If they want bathroom access though, they're going to have to stand up and be counted. Accurate or not, the image of "straight men in the ladies room" (aka CDs) potentially coming for your wives and daughters is the political right's bogeyman du jour when it comes to legislation that restricts access for transwomen. When PaulaQ talks about throwing CDs under the bus, this is at least part of what she's talking about. I have very mixed feelings about CDs in the ladies room, especially when it comes to fetishistic dressers, but all other things being equal I would ultimately support reasonable access based on presentation (in the absence of available gender neutral facilities) for safety reasons. If push comes to shove though, I would gladly deny CDs access to the ladies room if it meant that all transitioning/transitioned women had reliable access throughout the country.

If nobody here cares then that's fine, but I see enough posts here about related issues that I suspect quite a few people actually do care, whether they're actively testing the limits or not.

[PaulaQ]

To Paula's point, I would expect that (based on posts here and people I know) CDs would be working primarily towards increasing social acceptance of variant gender presentation, and I believe the majority of CDs who "go out" (many/most of which are currently still closeted, but taking a risk) would/should take an interest in bathroom access issues. If they want bathroom access though, they're going to have to stand up and be counted. Accurate or not, the image of "straight men in the ladies room" (aka CDs) potentially coming for your wives and daughters is the political right's bogeyman du jour when it comes to legislation that restricts access for transwomen. When PaulaQ talks about throwing CDs under the bus, this is at least part of what she's talking about.

Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about. There is no way I expect CDs to come out and live full time as women - that's craziness! You need to explain why it's OK for you to sometimes present as women, sometimes as men. The thing is - CDs need to explain themselves in this environment for a couple of reasons:

1. Me, emma, Zooey and the other trans women on this forum are a MUCH easier sell, even to the bigots than y'all are. Think people are going to understand "oh you're just men who like to dress up sometimes?" WRONG. We're an easier sell because we by and large conform to what people expect women to be. Many of us plan to have GRS - so the shopworn argument "U cain't be wimmen - u have a dick!!!!" goes out the window too. I'm not saying we're easy to understand - but we're MUCH easier than someone who switches back and forth. There's also the matter of sexuality while dressed - y'all do it, we don't. It would be easy to demonize you as perverts, weenie waggers, and potential rapists - because hey - most of you still like girls. (Actually a lot of us do too, but most of 'merica doesn't seem to get that.)

2. There are people out there who are waging a (I hope) desperate rear-guard action. They are going after trans people. If they fail to get us for whatever reason, or try to conflate us with you and actually begin to gain ground there (it could happen), some of us are very likely to go all truscum on you, and throw you and anyone else who is non-binary under the bus in exchange for humane treatment for those of us who medically transition. If you don't think some of us would do this, you are naïve - this is EXACTLY what the gays did to us. Heck, some of the lesbians, the TERFS, are still doing this to us! You know what rolls down hill, and sugar, if the folks who hate us gain power, you don't want to be at the bottom of the hill. Given some of the insane things they floated this year, you could be looking at serious jail time for entering a gender segregated space. If we are able to exert ANY influence on the matter, if we find a compromise between criminalizing us, or criminalizing y'all, you'd best believe some of us will push to make YOU the potential criminals.

People need to understand that you are human beings, you are (by and large) feminine men, or men with a feminine side or however you want to describe yourselves. You abide the law, stay with your wives, and sometimes you just want to look pretty. If you want that story to be the one people remember, they need to know you.

Look, I know some of you think I'm picking on CDs, trying to stir up trouble, denigrating you, trying to make you destroy your lives for no reason. Nothing could be further from the truth. I care deeply about your plight. I know many of you experience pain not unlike what I have. Many of you fear discovery - I know what this is like. I sympathize with you - hey - I've been there. So if you think I am your enemy, then you just really have no idea about what is out there, after us. Because the people that hate us DO NOT CARE that you present as a manly man, that you are a good father, a caring husband. They won't look up to you for not transitioning. Believe me, if our story, that of transsexuals, is the only one out there, people will look at you with great suspicion for not transitioning! (There's no guarantee we'll make it either - but if we don't, I can assure you that many of y'all will be just as boned as we are.)

There is terrible stuff coming down the pipe, unfortunately. It's aimed at trans people, and right now, people don't understand how you are different from us. Save yourselves - help us fight these people. This is a common interest we all have.

If you don't believe they can do it, it took five words "no men in women's bathrooms" to defeat an equality ordinance in Houston, the fourth biggest city in the US, and home to an enormous LGBT population, a city with an openly lesbian mayor at the time. They did this with 1/3 of the budget that Big Gay Inc. threw at this problem. And the scary part is, the big conservative religious groups that hate us have much, much bigger war chests than even Big Gay Inc. This stuff is happening. It's happening NOW, and it is a backlash because of marriage equality.

[Zylia]

Insert inane "herp derp I just want to be me" comment here.

Firstly, I fully agree with Paula et alii on why crossdressers need to be more visible. Actually, most good posts in this thread seem to come from people who do not identify as crossdresser (IMHO). Not sure what that means. Please don't throw me under the bus.

The one thing I want to point out is selection bias. The community on crossdressers.com, at least the one in this particular subforum, is not representative of the general transgender/crossdressing population. It's not necessarily to its detriment, but the community here is Americanocentric, generally heteronormative and 'binary-centric'.

Also, fluff topics push out serious topics, members who aren't particularly interested in fluff topics leave the website, relatively even more fluff topics are created, etc. The issues named in this thread are discussed within the community at large, even here on CD.com, but there's just a lot of noise.

[ReineD]

The one thing I want to point out is selection bias. The community on crossdressers.com, at least the one in this particular subforum,

But aren't the remarks addressed to the members who do participate regularly in this particular subforum?

... is not representative of the general transgender/crossdressing population.

How have you measured this.

Statistics are available for people who seek medical help for gender dysphoria, but how can we know how many people have a male gender identity, do not want the crossdressing to impact their male lives, and so they do not seek HRT or other body modifications nor do they seek counseling.

The CDers still face prejudice and ridicule. That they do is wrong and crazy. How you present and dress should be your business. But as Paula as tried to patiently explain it will never change unless CDers take action.

My SO is not TS, therefore my SO is likely read more than a TS who has sought HRT and other physical modifications in order to rid herself of her male gender cues. Yet, when we go out we are not treated any differently than TSs. People do not ridicule us nor do they treat us in a prejudicial manner. If they disapprove, they keep their opinions to themselves although it is likely they just don't care because we have no impact on their personal lives. And judging by all the positive posts from other members here who go out like my SO, this seems to be rather universal.

Do not take action for the sake of the TS. Although greater visibility of CDers would probably help, we are already doing it for ourselves. Take action for the sake of other CDers. Take action to protect yourself if you are ever outed by accident or by a SO. Take action so we can all live in a saner and more accepting world.

If my SO should ever be outed at work or to his family, I don't think he would suffer any more than if he were TS and announce that she was transitioning? Wouldn't the people who choose to reject my SO because they hear (not see) that he crossdresses reject him less than if she was a TS who began presenting as a female all the time?

Look at marriages. Aren't there more marriages who survive with husbands who dress part-time than with husbands who discover are TS and who need to transition? Also look at work. If an employer hears than an employee crossdresses on her time off, wouldn't this have a lesser impact than if this employee were to show up at work presenting as a woman every day.

That does not mean all of you. Compared to Paula I do very little. But I am living full time and I am very visible. That in itself makes a difference.

But again, you are living full time! This is not the same as someone who wants to live as a male and only dress occasionally. Maybe the source of our disagreement is your belief that the only reason CDers crossdress occasionally is because they want to dress full time but are afraid of the negative consequences of doing so?

[Zylia]

But aren't the remarks addressed to the members who do participate regularly in this particular subforum?

No, the topic starter ultimately seems to talk about crossdressers in general, not the particular subset on crossdressers.com, and so are many respondents, but I may be wrong.

How have you measured this.

I don't really have to. Let's look at the inverse statement: "the community on crossdressers.com is representative of the general crossdressing population". It's technically possible, but what would be the odds that a non-random selection of people who are tech-savvy enough to voluntary join this particular English/American website and are hanging around long enough to create all those fluff topics is representative? That seems unlikely, so perhaps I should have said "I seems unlikely that..etc. etc.", but I deemed that rather unnecessary. Anyway, disregard my statement if the burden of proof is on me.

[ReineD]

No, the topic starter ultimately seems to talk about crossdressers in general, not the particular subset on crossdressers.com, and so are many respondents, but I may be wrong.

I was asking more about the members whose posts are in favor of CDers coming out. I take it their remarks are addressed to the community members who habitually post in this particular subsection, although I also may be wrong.

Anyway, disregard my statement if the burden of proof is on me.

No, not at all. I genuinely was interested in knowing a good source of statistics, if there is any way to measure this. I agree there are lots of fluff topics here and this may well reflect a non-random population, but this matches the google search results when the term "crossdresser" is entered. There are millions of sites that cater to the fluff and sexual aspects of the crossdressing. I’ve taken it this is likely representational.

[Veronica27]

A MtF transsexual is a genetic male who feels, thinks and believes that he is a woman, or should be one. A MtF crossdresser is a genetic male who feels, knows and enjoys the fact that he is a man, but who occasionally enjoys wearing female clothing, and who may or may not pretend to be a woman at such times. This is a simplification, but my point is that both should accept the other for who they are. There is a big difference between accepting and understanding and another big difference between understanding and comprehending. I am a CD who accepts those who are TS, and I do what I can to understand them, by listening and reading and thinking about what I have thus absorbed. I don't claim to comprehend their situation, because that is virtually impossible. I cannot get into their mind to know how they feel and it is difficult for them to describe something as subjective as feelings. For example, I cannot fathom how my feelings about my gender could ever lead to suicidal thoughts, but that is what we often hear. I am not being judgemental, but simply admitting I do not comprehend.

By the same reasoning, I don't think that a TS person can really comprehend what being a crossdresser is all about. Many say they do, because they have been through it and that is how it all began. What they are overlooking is the fact that they crossdressed because they were TS. It was the prime subconscious motivator, and it was only after years of introspection that they realized they were indeed TS. They may understand many of the difficulties faced by CD's as they shared them, but from their writings I realize they do not comprehend how a man who is not gender conflicted would want to dress up in women's clothing and even portray at times a woman. They do not comprehend the emotional issues that CD's write about, their desires to remain closeted, and not wanting to be an activist, because they are looking at these issues from the viewpoint of a transsexual. And lastly, they seem unaware of how their comments are giving inaccurate descriptions of CD's that others, including spouses and others may happen to read or hear.

Being TS is a part and parcel of who a person is. Being a crossdresser is what a person does rather than who he is. In many cases it is a very small part of a CD's life. The same cannot be said of a TS. For them it has to be all or nothing, and is certainly a major life altering happening. I lead a very happy and fulfilling male life as a husband, father, grandfather, brother and friend. Why would I want to jeopardize that by telling these people I sometimes like to wear dresses? I have nothing to gain by doing so, because I don't want my crossdressing to be a part of my relationship with them.

And what about going out? I am told repeatedly that by not doing so, I am not being true to myself, and I am not helping the TG community. But how does being someone that I am not promote understanding of who I am and what I like to do. Secondly, the increased awareness of the whole TG scene in recent years has inadvertently painted a vastly different picture of what being a crossdresser is all about than the reality of the situation, and that picture has very negative connotations.

I have been outside the four walls of my home on occasion, but I have not done so for several years now for a variety of reasons. Firstly, as a crossdresser I have no desire to dress the way most women do about 90% or more of the time these days. The whole point of my CDing is to wear those things that women wear for special occasions that are completely different than the things I wear as a man. CDing to me is an adventure where I can experience something completely different. Finding a venue where such dressing is appropriate these days is getting harder and harder to do. CD events used to provide an opportunity for such dressing up, but they are expensive on a pensioner's budget, and they have increasingly been aimed at the TS end of the spectrum. Secondly, my age and health is making it dangerous to walk in heels, as a diabetic condition has affected my sense of balance.

I am not averse to going out again should an acceptable opportunity arise, but that is far from being a pressing concern for me at this time. I enjoy life and all it provides to me. My life has not been without its tribulations and heartbreaks, but I am an eternal optimist and believe in making the most of the life I have been given. Oh, and did I say I sometimes like to crossdress.

Veronica

[Lorileah]

OK people...back on track here. Please. Maybe we need to ask the TSs (yes even me) to stop posting here on this thread? Quit the us vs them stuff. Call this a yellow card

[ReineD]

I'll stop posting here too.

Maybe we could all instead go back to a neutral position and allow that members know how they want to lead their lives. Those who want to come out to come out will come out, and those who want to stay closeted will stay closeted, so there is no need to try to convince anyone of anything.

[gokatiegirl]

Coming from a LGBT neighborhood many TSs won't associate with CDs or TVs because of their part-time status. TVs don't care for CDs because most TVs are bisexual and CDs are mostly straight. I was really surprised to see everybody getting along on this site up until now. It seems everybody is lumped together here and many members don't understand each other. Nobody really knows anything about another person unless they walk in their shoes. Nobody is being left behind, if anything they are leaving themselves behind. Last week this thread pissed me off and almost posted 3 times but everyday it's still here. No good is going to come from it.. time to let the thread die.

[Veronica27]

This thread has morphed into a fairly intelligent discussion of some of the differences that exist between various factions within the community. I think we can all learn from it. Please don't close it. I am personally looking forward to some fresh thoughts on the subject.

Veronica

[Eryn]

Sure we have different goals and worldviews, but that doesn't mean that we don't share a lot as well. Many of us have changed our focus from CD to TS partially because of information that we have read here. From where I stand I think that it is profitable to reach out in both directions.

One of the loose-knit groups that I see regularly consists of everything from once-a-month CDers to fully transitioned TSs. For some reason we all get along fine. It might have something to do with the lack of a keyboard/screen anonymity barrier. We do walk in each other's shoes and the stroll is both enjoyable and uplifting for all.

[Mayo]

What a lot of people here are saying is, they don't want to integrate fully as women, because they are not women. They may want to present as women sometimes under some circumstances, and present as men at other times under different circumstances.

Those who do present as women sometimes, like my SO, go out and enjoy themselves. People are already respectful. If they disagree with what my SO is doing, they keep their opinions to themselves.

You and your SO are fortunate. Someone posted in another thread recently that his ex-wife had to move out of the town where she lived because nobody would hire her because her ex-husband is a CD. People have been fired from their jobs, subjected to abuse, and even killed for crossdressing. The tide of society, though it is slowly shifting (at least in the case of TS), is still very much against CDers (again, witness the 'men in womens bathrooms' rhetoric against Houston's HERO). CDs who feel shame at what they do, do so because society teaches them that they are filthy perverts.

But again, you are living full time! This is not the same as someone who wants to live as a male and only dress occasionally. Maybe the source of our disagreement is your belief that the only reason CDers crossdress occasionally is because they want to dress full time but are afraid of the negative consequences of doing so?

Whether or not you (by which I don't mean you personally, of course, but any CD) dress full time is irrelevant. The mere knowledge that you are a CD can ruin your life. If you are fortunate enough that either a) nobody knows or b) you have enough class privilege that you're relatively insulated (e.g. Caitlyn Jenner), or c) you live in a place where the majority of the negativity you might experience if you come out/are outed is tolerable/minimal, then you personally may not care much about 'CD rights'. The problem, as with TS folks and even gays & lesbians in some places (still), is that not everybody has those luxuries and there are still people who feel perfectly justified in harassing anybody who doesn't conform to their narrow definition of what constitutes 'normal'.

The whole issue is, not whether you choose to come out or not, but how you might be treated if you do - accidentally or deliberately. Call me deluded, but I think there should be a reasonable expectation that you should not lose your job or have obscenities spraypainted on your house or live in fear of being beaten up for something you do legally in the privacy of your own home.

What needs to change is society's attitude. This might change organically over the next 50-100 years as a corollary to changes in gay and TS rights, or it could start happening sooner if CDs themselves are prepared to step up and start the (activist) process of educating and informing people and pushing for anti-discrimination laws and so on.

The reason the TSs in this thread are supporting activism is because they have been outed (or have chosen to out themselves) for reasons that many uneducated people still see as not that much different from CDing. They know what it's like to have to navigate a system that, on an institutional and often personal basis, is not set up to accommodate them, and in some cases to actively deny and harass them. (I should say that I rather expect an out CD would probably have an easier time of it if it came down to asserting rights.) They feel strongly enough about their situation (as did gays & lesbians) that they are prepared to advocate for change. CDs as a group, on the other hand, seem rather more content to remain in the closet, perhaps because as 'part timers' or 'hobbyists' they are less invested in CDing as an identity, and are prepared to let individuals deal with any consequences on their own.

If you choose to do nothing (which is entirely your prerogative!), you may never experience any discrimination whatsoever for CDing. If you are out and fortunate, you also may not experience significant problems. If you take an activist role, you almost certainly will, including online and public harassment up to and including death threats. But the more people who stand up, the sooner rights protections for CDs will be put in place. That's the bottom line, really, and the point that I (personally) am trying to make - if nobody says anything, nothing will change, but the more people who speak up the sooner change will happen, and all CDs will benefit.

Maybe we could all instead go back to a neutral position and allow that members know how they want to lead their lives. Those who want to come out to come out will come out, and those who want to stay closeted will stay closeted, so there is no need to try to convince anyone of anything.

I agree with PaulaQ and the others who support activism on the part of CDs as something that leads to a desirable goal (more rights sooner), but I'm also perfectly happy to let CDs stay at home and mind their own business if that's what they want to do.

This is my last post too (I keep telling myself that! ) unless somebody wants to specifically address something I've said.