How many of us are JUST crossdressers?

[ReineD]

Freddy, now that I've put in my two cents as a mod, I'd like to give my opinion. I'm afraid it will be rather lengthy.

There is so much misinformation in this thread I hardly know where to begin.

1. Many people in this thread have said, "I'm not TG because I'm not attracted to men". We conflate gender identity and sexuality in our culture and we need to stop doing this. They are not related, save for the fact that the majority of male identified persons are attracted to women and vice versa. Still, there are TSs and CDs who are attracted to women, TSs and CDs who are attracted to men, TSs and CDs who are attracted to both, and TSs and CDs who are attracted to neither.
   
   
2. The terms "crossdresser" and "transvestite" are interchangeable. "Crossdresser" is more commonly used in North America, and both words are used in the UK. Academic papers also use the term "transvestite" when referring to crossdressers. No matter how negatively some people may see the term "transvestite", it is not a dirty word.
   
   
3. "Transgender" according to the WPATH describes a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally defined categories of gender. And gendered presentation (not just the clothes) is one of the categories that defines gender. The gender identity of transgenders differs to widely varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth. Men who are not transgender have no wish to present as females unless they are genuinely doing it on a lark or for mockery. But, there are men who wear skirts and who present fully as men and I agree that these men are not transgender … unless they present this way because they do not want people pointing at them and saying, "Look, that man is trying to look like a woman". As to the men who underdress, we need to also ask if they only do so because they fear ridicule should they go further. There is a real fear among male-bodied and male-socialized individuals of appearing ridiculous and inciting scorn. Does this mean they lack the desires of crossdressers who were blessed with both a physiognomy and more favorable life circumstances that enable them to transform and pass?
   
   
4. The terms "transgender" and even "crossdresser" are widely misused:
   
   a) Now that we understand more about the components of gender than we did when the term "crossdresser" (or "transvestite) first appeared, we know that crossdressing is what a transgendered individual does.
   
   b) Some crossdressers incorrectly believe that "transgender" means "transsexual", a desire to be a woman.
   
   c) Other crossdressers believe the term "crossdresser" means dressing for sexual fetish only and they refuse to use the term for themselves.
   
   d) Some crossdressers do identify as transgender since they realize there is a difference between them and their male friends who would never even consider presenting as women.
   
   e) Level 6 transsexuals (who've had SRS) refuse to place themselves under the transgender umbrella since they see themselves physically and emotionally as women. And some post-op transwomen even refuse to call themselves TS.
   
   f) The media refers to children and adults who seek or have had Gender Reassignment as "transgender" (possibly to avoid any misunderstanding of their use of the proper term "transsexual" when it comes to children), which further complicates matters.
   
   g) Some of the transsexuals (levels 4 or 5) who do solidly identify as women but who do not see their way to having SRS (for a variety of reasons) also define themselves as "transgender", not as an umbrella term, but because they erroneously believe this is a stepping stone between "crossdresser" and "transsexual" and they feel uncomfortable using the term "transsexual" if they do not seek SRS.
   
   h) The truth is, there is a spectrum among transsexuals just as there is among crossdressers, and everyone is transgendered (save the pure sexual fetishists and perhaps the post-op, stealth transwomen but this is another discussion).
   
   h) "Transgender" is not a one way ticket (your post #36). "Transsexual" is the one way fare.

So Freddy, I have questions. You've written many times that you live in a conservative area. If you lived in San Francisco for example, and you knew that you could dress, put on a wig, forms, and not be read as a man in a dress, would you enjoy going out to lunch and being treated like a woman? Something drives you to dress, what is it and why does it offer you such joy and magic (your post #68)? And how would you feel if I went to your house, took all your clothes and makeup away, and told you that you could never express Frédérique again, not even a single earring? Do you feel as if expressing Frédérique is as much a part of you as the other crossdressers in this thread who also adamantly refuse to use the term "transgender" for themselves? Also, how do you know that your gender identity is as purely male as the men who have absolutely no desire to crossdress?

And last, to address your other points regarding a perceived hierarchy within the TG community, I also agree that the pecking order in this community only lives in small-minded people's minds. No one is better or worse than anyone else, just different. And there are countless differences.

[Sandra1746]

You have clarified many points that others were ignoring, for whatever reasons.

Labels are unfortunately divisive by nature but there is no need whatsoever for that tendency to become pervasive in OUR community. We are a small minority and we need to hang together; or we shall surely hang separately.

Just my opinion,
Sandra1746

[ReineD]

I still say, we don't have enough labels (I prefer to use "definitions"), since everyone is using their own version of what they think two or three different words mean, and no one can agree.

Can you imagine the mess our world would be in if we only had "apple", "orange", and "banana" to describe all the fruits? Goodness, there'd be wars between people who call a papaya an orange, and people who call pineapples the same. lol

[Frédérique]

It troubles me that anyone in an open discussion forum would make significant use of such an "ignore" feature, especially in your case where you take such care in crafting thoughtful threads that provoke responses, mostly positive but sometimes critical. It doesn't seem to make much sense by covering your eyes and ears, singing "la la la" as if other points of view neither exist nor are valid in your eyes. What kind of discussion is that???

[SIZE="2"]So you support attacks on me?

The people on my ignore list are there because they insist on taking my writing apart, sentence by sentence, inserting critical comments, and not offering one word in the way of original thought (for discussion). I don’t WANT to ignore them, but...well...are you familiar with the word “bully?” It troubles ME that the ones causing me to act so drastically are the last ones to be aware of THEIR injurious words, or to display a conscience by way of apology or regret…[/SIZE]

You clearly haven't seen all of them.

[SIZE="2"]Yes I have, by way of quotes within other posts, as I have already explained. One way or another, despite my best efforts, a few “missles” still get through…[/SIZE]

So Freddy, I have questions.
1.You've written many times that you live in a conservative area. If you lived in San Francisco for example, and you knew that you could dress, put on a wig, forms, and not be read as a man in a dress, would you enjoy going out to lunch and being treated like a woman?
2.Something drives you to dress, what is it and why does it offer you such joy and magic (your post #68)?
3.And how would you feel if I went to your house, took all your clothes and makeup away, and told you that you could never express Frédérique again, not even a single earring? Do you feel as if expressing Frédérique is as much a part of you as the other crossdressers in this thread who also adamantly refuse to use the term "transgender" for themselves?
4.Also, how do you know that your gender identity is as purely male as the men who do not crossdress?

[SIZE="2"]1. Please define “treated like a woman,” and grade your comments geographically…
2. Tactile pleasure. I believe that is begrudgingly referred to in some treatises on transvestism. There is a big difference between being a transvestite and being transgendered, but I know you disagree with my definitions. As for joy and magic, they are in the hearts and minds of individual dressers – I certainly don’t expect everyone to appreciate such simple (and personal) concepts…
3. I wouldn’t feel good about it, but the expression would still come out, one way or the other (as in my artwork, for example). I cannot answer for the other crossdressers in this thread – expression is a very private thing that is, in many ways, beyond discussion…
4. Who says it was? I just know I’m not transgendered, that’s all…[/SIZE]

And last, to address your other points regarding a perceived hierarchy within the TG community, I also agree that the pecking order in this community only lives in small-minded people's minds. No one is better or worse than anyone else, just different. And there are countless differences.

[SIZE="2"]This thread came about because a good friend of mine recently came back from the void, and was almost immediately buffeted by unsolicited opinions and advice, making a cloudy mindset only cloudier. I see this time and time again. I would prefer to say nothing and launch another “Tea Party,” but I feel for this friend of mine. I keep wondering that there are others who might come to a site like this, hoping for some reinforcement, or support, or maybe someone will say “It’s OK,” but they get a wheelbarrow-load of confusion instead. With that in mind, all I’m trying to say is this – there are some of us who are JUST crossdressers, with no pretensions to anything else, so please treat us accordingly. I agree - there are countless differences, and they should ALL have a voice…
[/SIZE]

[ReineD]

*sigh*, then we'll just leave it at that, Freddy.

[Marleena]

Okay I feel the need to defend my good friend Freddy here. In case some of you haven't noticed she is one of the most friendly, compassionate, caring and creative people here. Her posts are always meant to invoke thought and discussion. This post is the same but somehow ended up going bad.

Fact is there is a hierarchy or perceived one here created by some members that does exist and will exist as long as the board is here. It's coming from all groups/labels or whatever you want to call them. Everybody has seen it, it even exists amongst the CDers themselves. This is what the thread is about, the feeling of being inferior created by others. I know I've had to defend the CDers on numerous occasions myself.

Freddy chooses to ignore those that harass or otherwise give her a hard time. The ignore option is there for a reason and I have been told by moderators to use it. It is a personal choice and she admitted to using it. Not a big deal based on moderator's advice.

Freddy does not discriminate among the groups, or at least I haven't seen it. She is seeing things from a CDer's POV based on the common definitions of what a CDer is. I see her as trying to help correct or help things by posting this thread.

[brenne]

I just call myself "transgender" - it may or may not become anything other than CD, don't know, but I try to keep an open mind either way. - BrendaB.

[ReineD]

Fact is there is a hierarchy or perceived one here created by some members that does exist and will exist as long as the board is here. It's coming from all groups/labels or whatever you want to call them. Everybody has seen it, it even exists amongst the CDers themselves. This is what the thread is about, the feeling of being inferior created by others. I know I've had to defend the CDers on numerous occasions myself.

Actually, Freddy spoke about two separate issues:

[SIZE="2"]

I’ve seen it, time and time again, in this very MtF crossdressing section. If you crossdress, you MUST be transgendered, or on the road to being transgendered, or transgendered without knowing it. To others, the act of crossdressing makes you transgendered. Apparently I, the MtF crossdresser, have certain obligations to fulfill – I cannot let down the "community," even though the community looks down on me. I can’t just dress to please myself, stay within my zone of safety, and live in a fantasy world of my own making; I MUST get out there and put myself in harm’s way like a true TG, come what may. If I don't, I’m not to be taken seriously, no matter how well I can plead my case for fairness..[/SIZE]

This is about the idea that Freddy is a CDer and not TG. She apparently feels judged or dismissed because she chooses to keep the CDing private. Also she feels she would be putting herself in harms way by going out dressed and she is understandably reluctant to do this. So it appears as if Freddy's definition of a TG is someone who goes out presenting as a woman in public and since Freddy dresses at home, she is a crossdresser. We've already established that after having read arguments that expand on the prior definitions of the terms "crossdresser" and "transgender", if Freddy still wants to call herself a CDer she is in her full right to do so. No one wants a circular argument.

Freddy's other point is a perception that the community at large here condemns people who are not out to everyone.

I just want to reiterate, it is Freddy's full right to call herself what she wants, and also her right to dress privately. No one here is in a position to criticize this, ever. But, I disagree with the perception that the majority of the people in this forum think badly of Freddy and feel as if she is letting "the community" down by her choices. Anyone need only count the responses in this thread in support of Freddy, to determine otherwise. Yes there have been a few contentious threads about this in the past and it is always the same small handful of people who make a rather strong point, but it is a mistake to say that the majority of people in this forum put others down for their choices.

So no, I do not wish to see this thread turn into a debate about being private vs. going out, or whether it is better to have a full femme identity vs. a partial, vs. none, since the choice about this is individual.

Also, from past experience I know there are a small handful of people who will become inflammatory over this facet of the debate and if we direct the conversation that way and there are more flaming posts, I will close this thread.

[Marleena]

Thanks Reine, it was too much to read and I came in late on this one. I went by Freddy's original post and looks like I missed some points.

"I just want to reiterate, it is Freddy's full right to call herself what she wants, and also her right to dress privately. No one here is in a position to criticize this, ever. But, I disagree with the perception that the majority of the people in this forum think badly of Freddy and feel as if she is letting "the community" down by her choices. Anyone need only count the responses in this thread in support of Freddy, to determine otherwise. Yes there have been a few contentious threads about this in the past and it is always the same small handful of people who make a rather strong point, but it is a mistake to say that the majority of people in this forum put others down for their choices."

I agree fully with the above statement.

[Kathy Smith]

I still say, we don't have enough labels (I prefer to use "definitions"), since everyone is using their own version of what they think two or three different words mean, and no one can agree.

Can you imagine the mess our world would be in if we only had "apple", "orange", and "banana" to describe all the fruits? Goodness, there'd be wars between people who call a papaya an orange, and people who call pineapples the same. lol

That hits the nail on the head, Reine. The major problem is the Latin language, which is very imprecise when parts are taken out of context, and the prefix "trans-":

a prefix occurring in loanwords from Latin (transcend; transfix); on this model, used with the meanings “across,” “beyond,” “through,” “changing thoroughly,” “transverse,” in combination with elements of any origin: transisthmian; trans-Siberian; transempirical; transvalue.

It doesn't define what we want. It gets used for single direction ("transsexual") and omnidirectional ("transvestite"). Obviously the latter can change clothes in both directions at will.

The term "transgender", as it has been defined, is so wide that you can drive a fleet of buses through it. You may as well just change it to "human" and be done with it. Freddy's definition of it, as I read it, is more accurately derived and far more precise:

a person who changes their gender (not their sex or sexual preferences) to that of the opposite gender.

I read that as being a single-directional term, similar to "transsexual". Using this definition Freddy is not "Transgender" and neither am I. (Sorry if I got it wrong, Freddy. )

Of course, we can never correct all this. The media demands an umbrella term that can be applied to everyone who doesn't fit into the commonly accepted norm. They've applied "Transgender" to that and we're stuck with it. So, "Transsexuals" (pre-op, post-op or whatever), you are "Transgender" whether you like it or not (and you always will be). So are you, "Crossdressers" and/or "Transvestites". The media says so. The actual definition has become so diluted now that it's completely useless.

If this post doesn't get me flamed I've done something wrong. :D

[Sara Jessica]

[SIZE="2"]So you support attacks on me? [/SIZE]

Of course not, you know that's not true.

[The people on my ignore list are there because they insist on taking my writing apart, sentence by sentence, inserting critical comments, and not offering one word in the way of original thought (for discussion). I don’t WANT to ignore them, but...well...are you familiar with the word “bully?” It troubles ME that the ones causing me to act so drastically are the last ones to be aware of THEIR injurious words, or to display a conscience by way of apology or regret…

Well I read said post completely and found it to be rather gentle, especially given the history there. I also found it to be full of the original thoughts you claim to be lacking. Just because opinions are not marching lock-step with your premise doesn't render them invalid. Remember, "just a crossdresser" is a rather provocative statement whether one wants to be associated as such or not. It seems that statements made to a contrary are dismissed way too easily.

Contrary opinions are not necessarily personal attacks but regardless, whether a person can be aware that their words are injurious in some way, shape or form, how can they know how you feel if you refuse to read those words, let alone acknowledge them whether in the open forum or via PM? It's like that driver who cuts us off in traffic and then flips the bird when we honk, they go about their business completely oblivious to the fact that they were the party in the wrong. I'm sure we have all wished we could tell that driver the error of their ways. So if you feel that someone's post is "injuring" you, then isn't it a better tactic to respond rather than ignore?

I don't know, it feels like I'm beating my head against a wall for no reason.

[Thera Home]

Hello Ladies
This thread is just too intense. So much reading my simple mind cant handle it.. I think all of you are beautiful and unique. I am so glad to part of this family.

Thera

[Veronica27]

That hits the nail on the head, Reine. The major problem is the Latin language, which is very imprecise when parts are taken out of context, and the prefix "trans-":

a prefix occurring in loanwords from Latin (transcend; transfix); on this model, used with the meanings “across,” “beyond,” “through,” “changing thoroughly,” “transverse,” in combination with elements of any origin: transisthmian; trans-Siberian; transempirical; transvalue.

It doesn't define what we want. It gets used for single direction ("transsexual") and omnidirectional ("transvestite"). Obviously the latter can change clothes in both directions at will.

The term "transgender", as it has been defined, is so wide that you can drive a fleet of buses through it. You may as well just change it to "human" and be done with it. Freddy's definition of it, as I read it, is more accurately derived and far more precise:

a person who changes their gender (not their sex or sexual preferences) to that of the opposite gender.

I read that as being a single-directional term, similar to "transsexual". Using this definition Freddy is not "Transgender" and neither am I. (Sorry if I got it wrong, Freddy. )

Of course, we can never correct all this. The media demands an umbrella term that can be applied to everyone who doesn't fit into the commonly accepted norm. They've applied "Transgender" to that and we're stuck with it. So, "Transsexuals" (pre-op, post-op or whatever), you are "Transgender" whether you like it or not (and you always will be). So are you, "Crossdressers" and/or "Transvestites". The media says so. The actual definition has become so diluted now that it's completely useless.

If this post doesn't get me flamed I've done something wrong. :D

Hi Kathy

Very well stated. But why should we be stuck with it? The media does more misinforming than it does informing. We see this every day with the coverage of politics. Everything is slanted the way the particular outlet wants it to be seen. But to get back on topic, your definition of transgender is correct, both historicaly,and grammaticaly. One of the first people to use the phrase (it was actually transgenderist) was Virginia Prince, co-founder of Tri-ess, who applied it to herself, because she was no longer an example of the core group of individuals that tri-ess was established to support. She found herself living virtually full time as a woman because of her position and responsibilities as the head of tri-ess. She went on hormones, but did not believe in SRS, so she concluded that she had "crossed over" (trans) to the other gender more or less permanently, but had not crossed over to the other sex. Transgender seemed to be the ideal label. That is the historical side. You have stated the grammatical side. People like to say that language evolves, which in a sense it does, but that does not excuse the laziness that allows terms to be used inaccurately. We seem to be seeing this more and more, aided in part by technology that encourages the useage of codes and catchphrases to save time and effort. I crossdress. That is a verb. As one who does so, I am a crossdresser. But that is but one of a great many things that I also "am". It does not define me in any way other than to mention something I sometimes do. But there is no verbal form of transgender. It is not something people do, but is something they are, i.e. a human condition. It defines an individual in a much deeper and more profound manner than something that a person does occasionally or even frequently. They are TG, even if they seldom express it.

Transgenderism does exist, but its pure definition is nowhere near as all-inclusive as many would have us believe. By some definitions, almost everybody is TG, because some aspect of their daily life happens to transcend some imaginary boundary between masculinity and femininity. On the other hand, a more concise definition makes the term extremely misleading as an umbrella for a very diverse community of individuals.

Veronica

[Frédérique]

[SIZE="2"]Another day, another lengthy post...[/SIZE]

Freddy does not discriminate among the groups, or at least I haven't seen it. She is seeing things from a CDer's POV based on the common definitions of what a CDer is. I see her as trying to help correct or help things by posting this thread.

[SIZE="2"]That is correct, and I appreciate your kind words and support, Marleena!

There are very few individuals on my ignore list, but we have encountered a few during the course of this thread. I KNOW they are going to show up, and I know I will be “inspired” to derail my own thread by way of heated responses, so, under the influence of crossdressing and its attendant ladylike behavior, isn’t it better to sidestep the anger that could develop? I think so. I’m glad there are ways to keep a level head around here. There was a time when I was afraid to post ANYTHING, especially thread OP’s, because the same people would descend on me like a babe in the woods. Referencing Sara Jessica’s previous comment about my willful ignorance (of certain members) being anathema to discussion, I wish to point out that pointed attacks on my written words do the same thing, from another direction, if you can see things from my point of view. I know I’m being looked down upon by some because I’m a “mere” crossdresser (who writes about it), and, if I didn’t, I certainly wouldn’t bother trying to discuss this controversial subject...[/SIZE]

I just want to reiterate, it is Freddy's full right to call herself what she wants, and also her right to dress privately. No one here is in a position to criticize this, ever. But, I disagree with the perception that the majority of the people in this forum think badly of Freddy and feel as if she is letting "the community" down by her choices. Anyone need only count the responses in this thread in support of Freddy, to determine otherwise. Yes there have been a few contentious threads about this in the past and it is always the same small handful of people who make a rather strong point, but it is a mistake to say that the majority of people in this forum put others down for their choices.

[SIZE="2"]Yes, and it is NOT my intention to create a rift between the various “factions” of crossdressers. I recently read an excellent assessment of the community we are a part of, or the umbrella we all come under, according to the auspices of society, for lack of any true understanding, and that is this – we cannot agree on anything! Rather than hinder any attempt at understanding, this fact only emboldens me (and others) to try wrapping words around seemingly difficult concepts in an attempt to forge increased acceptance. When the threads get contentious I know I’m getting closer to the heart of the problem, if there is one, and some are getting a glimpse of their own community from my perspective, which happens to be at the very edge of the “umbrella.” Help!?[/SIZE]

Also, from past experience I know there are a small handful of people who will become inflammatory over this facet of the debate and if we direct the conversation that way and there are more flaming posts, I will close this thread.

[SIZE="2"]Thanks for NOT closing the thread (so far), Reine! I appreciate your support, and thanks for making an effort to see things from the perspective of us “ordinary” crossdressers...[/SIZE]

[SIZE="2"]I have a question. Are you posting within this discussion as a member, or as a moderator? If it is the former, how can you (technically) close the thread? I assume your answer might be, “Just WATCH me!” but I’m curious – do you shift between member and mod as the situation presents itself, or are you always a moderator, and thus here primarily to keep the peace? Your words betray a certain compassion in this regard...[/SIZE]

The term "transgender", as it has been defined, is so wide that you can drive a fleet of buses through it. You may as well just change it to "human" and be done with it. Freddy's definition of it, as I read it, is more accurately derived and far more precise: a person who changes their gender (not their sex or sexual preferences) to that of the opposite gender. I read that as being a single-directional term, similar to "transsexual". Using this definition Freddy is not "Transgender" and neither am I. (Sorry if I got it wrong, Freddy.)

[SIZE="2"]No, you got it right! I harp upon this dictionary definition of "trans-"quite often, because it provides an insight into word origins as well as the labels that society places on us. By definition, if you are transgendered a definite change has taken place, from one gender to the other, and any crossdressing becomes simply “dressing” in regards to this transformation. If a male wears women’s clothing occasionally, and then reverts back to his male appearance (even after a lengthy visit to the “other side”), and it stays at that level (i.e. goes no further), I don’t think you can accurately call that person transgendered. However, wearing women’s clothing aligns us with the transgendered community – this comes about because certain assumptions are created in people’s minds, either due to ignorance or laziness, and we are trundled together with actual TG’s by association...

So, we come here, attracted by the title, to “meet” other crossdressers, and we bump into the TG community in all its glory. But, what if we are “just” crossdressers? This seems to cause friction with some who aren’t JUST crossdressers. Darned if I don’t feel like an outsider at times, but it comes with the territory. I go back and forth, from one side to the other, crossing from one gender to another in my effort to “play as a girl.” I don’t think it can hurt to dissect words for their actual meanings, or their original meanings, in an effort to find out why a MtF crossdresser and a trangendered person would have differing opinions. I agree that the word “transgendered” has been broadened politically to now encompass ALL forms of crossdressing, but, it that’s the case, shouldn’t this place be called transgender.com? I think the actual title of this site reflects an acceptance of all crossdressers, even though the latter term is becoming increasingly obsolete. Most “accurate” terms go that route, replaced by confusing language that clouds the issue, whatever it may be...

BTW, I would join a site called transvestite.com immediately, but, if it originated in this country, I’m sure it would be aligned (and filled) with pornography... [/SIZE]

[NicoleScott]

I never bought the argument that we shouldn't use labels. We need them, sometimes more, sometimes less, but we need to use them in a way so that when you use a word, I understand what you mean. "Transgender", in all its different uses, doesn't communicate well. We need a word to describe (more narrowly than "transgender") the people such as Reine describes below:

g) Some of the transsexuals (levels 4 or 5) who do solidly identify as women but who do not see their way to having SRS (for a variety of reasons) also define themselves as "transgender", not as an umbrella term, but because they erroneously believe this is a stepping stone between "crossdresser" and "transsexual" and they feel uncomfortable using the term "transsexual" if they do not seek SRS.

"Transgender", the catch-all umbrella term, has been taken. We need a new one.

Reine, did you really have to use "fruits" as your analogy? haha

[Thera Home]

"Transgender", the catch-all umbrella term, has been taken. We need a new one.

Yes, I agree. What about Fashionalistbeautyadmirealistguy

Thera

[ReineD]

Hi Kathy

She [Virginia Prince] went on hormones, but did not believe in SRS, so she concluded that she had "crossed over" (trans) to the other gender more or less permanently, but had not crossed over to the other sex. Transgender seemed to be the ideal label. That is the historical side. You have stated the grammatical side. People like to say that language evolves, which in a sense it does, but that does not excuse the laziness that allows terms to be used inaccurately.

But knowledge also evolves, particularly our understanding of gender, which we now believe is not binary. Something drives a genetic male to wish to transcend the culturally defined norms of masculinity in order to express femininity, so what is it? Why is there a need to feel feminine, if it isn't a degree of feminine gender identification, even if this ebbs and flows and even if the primary gender ID is male?

To say that the act of crossdressing is simply something that one does and is not unlike engaging in a hobby or playing a sport does not acknowledge the deeper psychological motives for choosing to temporarily change or transcend something that is fundamental to our core sense of who we are, namely our gender.

[SIZE="2"]I have a question. Are you posting within this discussion as a member, or as a moderator? If it is the former, how can you (technically) close the thread? I assume your answer might be, “Just WATCH me!” but I’m curious – do you shift between member and mod as the situation presents itself, or are you always a moderator, and thus here primarily to keep the peace? Your words betray a certain compassion in this regard...[/SIZE]

I'm a transmoderator! I switch back and forth. :D

Seriously, sometimes I'm purely a mod trying to keep the peace (post #96), sometimes I post my opinion purely as a member (#101), and sometimes it's hard to separate since as an individual I dislike strife and I post as both (#108).

So maybe I'm a bimod, or a dualmod. lol

I do care about all the members here no matter their gender identity and I also consider the people lurking who haven't joined yet (the CDs, TSs, and their wives/husbands). As both a mod and as a member, I believe in putting our best face forward to the public at large and I dislike it when threads disintegrate because members have forgotten that everyone has a right to their opinion, as long as it is expressed respectfully. This is why I have no qualms about closing a thread that I've participated in as a member, when it becomes a free for all.

[Leila Be]

Dear Frédérique: I dress for tactile, sensual and sexual reasons, but in the end I just dress because it makes me feel very relaxed. My heart beats faster, my skin tingles, and a part of me is able to simply let go and slip into something more comfortable. I have no desire to become a TG. I adore my "breast forms", wigs, silk nighties and hose, but would never consider any thing further. As a man, I feel comfortable. As a CD, I feel.....well, hidden...and that's a shame. Always love your thoughts and posts. Leila


[QUOTE=Frédérique;2885646][FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="2"][COLOR="black"] ...."there is a BIG difference between a male who dresses as a woman for tactile or sexual reasons, and a transgendered person who may be way more serious about what they do.

[Abbyru1]

Personally, I consider myself a crossdresser. I'm not "trans"" anything. I'd be a transformer if i could go between female and male when I wanted to. But all of the other titles don't make it with me. Transvestvite sounds creepy as hell. "Tranny" to me is the part of automobile that allows
the horsepower produced from an engine to be sent to the rearend-not THAT rearend-and trans axles are a real differnt story. I'm happy to be considered a CD. Although that too is not what society calls what I am. To most of them , I'm a guy in a dress.

[Emilie_la_Nuit]

I also consider myself as a crossdresser. And I am especially using "he" and "male" terms talking about me. I hope it will help the society to be less binary as far as clothes are concerned.

[Xrys]

First, to answer your question, no, I am not just a crossdresser. I am, as I have come to understand myself over these last few months, TS. Over the last few months, I have enbarked on a inward journey to understand myself and I have made some discoveries that I hope will be helpfull.

First of all, I have discovered an internal conflict within myself. It is not the conflict with my male and female selves, but a conflict between two parts of my femminine whole. It is a conflict between my inner lady and my inner bitch. Logic, reason, compassion, forgiveness, and love are the qualities i find in my inner lady. Her alter ego can best be described with the words from Captain Jack Sparrow. "She is the embodiement of a woman's scorn, the likes of which Hell's furry hath no." She rages inside my head, seething with anger and hatred. What makes many of us different is how we deal with these feelings of anger, frusteration, and often times jealousy. It affects the theings we say, the way we act, and it forms part of the lens through which we see the world.

I often wish that I was Just a crossdresser. I wish that a change of clothes was all it took to make me happy. But that just ain't the way it is, not for me anyway. And my inner bitch rages in my head. She screams about how much she hates that crossdressers have it so much easier than us. She yells out how much easier it would be if I didnt need therapy and hormones, and surgury, and all this dam waiting. She slams her fists down on the table shouting that they have the luxury of staying in the closet and not having to worry as much about societies rules and the rejection that comes when you don't conform to them. Then the yelling stops, and she falls to her knees. she begins to cry. She sobs abohow expensive her happyness is. She laments about how she is going to tell her parents that they will never have grandchildren. She is a part of me, and it has taken me a long time to learn to deal with these feelings, and sometimes I still don't know what to do with them. Sometimes we don't always choose the best way of dealing with our emotions, and we vent our anger and frustration on people who don't deserve it. It is not right, and it is not fair, but sometimes that's just the way it is. All I can do is try my best not to hurt someone else, and understand that those who are hurting others are them selves huting, and hope that they will find their own peace soon. That is just part of the world we live in.

[ReineD]

She screams about how much she hates that crossdressers have it so much easier than us. She yells out how much easier it would be if I didnt need therapy and hormones, and surgury, and all this dam waiting.

Ah. But there's an end in sight for you. One day you will be transitioned, you'll have gotten past all this, and you will fit nicely as a binary woman in a binary world. However, crossdressers (depending on the degree of their need to express themselves, and depending on the acceptance of their families), face different yet just as difficult challenges. For life. We do not live in a world that accepts men who need to express femininity nor does the world accept people who experience a non-binary mixture of gender identity. Crossdressers experience the frustration of not feeling free to express themselves, and they also lose jobs and families.

I respect your challenges and I know it is not easy to face the losses you will experience from the people in your life who will not be able to accept your transition. And I feel compassion for what you are going through. But it is a mistake to feel as if your pain is greater than someone else who has a completely different set of challenges than you do.

[Veronica27]

But knowledge also evolves, particularly our understanding of gender, which we now believe is not binary. Something drives a genetic male to wish to transcend the culturally defined norms of masculinity in order to express femininity, so what is it? Why is there a need to feel feminine, if it isn't a degree of feminine gender identification, even if this ebbs and flows and even if the primary gender ID is male?

To say that the act of crossdressing is simply something that one does and is not unlike engaging in a hobby or playing a sport does not acknowledge the deeper psychological motives for choosing to temporarily change or transcend something that is fundamental to our core sense of who we are, namely our gender.

A desire to crossdress may or may not include a desire to express one's own sense of femininity, but that does not have to translate into "gender identification". Nobody ever claims that a woman is identifying with the "masculine gender" if she takes auto mechanics, goes fishing, wears jeans and a t-shirt, does house repairs or any of the countless other "masculine" things that they do. Why does everyone assume a man is identifying with the "feminine gender" simply because he enjoys participating in some of the cultural practices normally assigned to the female sex.

What you describe as knowledge and understanding of gender is primarily psychological theory and opinions, and not provable fact. They are the result of attempting to answer the many questions that have resulted from all the cultural and social changes that have occurred over the past half century or so. Gender, unlike sex, is an intangible and therefore incapable of possessing a finite definition. As some state, gender is a social construct, meaning it is whatever a given society deems it to be at any point in time.

The following explanation of gender was found at http://www.yourdictionary.com/gender?

"Traditionally, gender has been used primarily to refer to the grammatical categories of “masculine,” “feminine,” and “neuter,” but in recent years the word has become well established in its use to refer to sex-based categories, as in phrases such as gender gap and the politics of gender. This usage is supported by the practice of many anthropologists, who reserve sex for reference to biological categories, while using gender to refer to social or cultural categories. According to this rule, one would say The effectiveness of the medication appears to depend on the sex (not gender) of the patient, but In peasant societies, gender (not sex) roles are likely to be more clearly defined. This distinction is useful in principle, but it is by no means widely observed, and considerable variation in usage occurs at all levels."

Thus, the use of gender in this sense of our "identity" is fairly recent, is not universally observed, and varies considerably. In fact, it is not something that we "are" in the same way as the categorizing of our sex, but it is a social and cultural categorizing of all the roles and various other qualities and characteristics that combine to form human nature. As individuals we possess our own characteristics, which a given culture may look upon as being masculine, feminine or neutral according to its precepts, but it is a major jump to say this defines our "gender" or our "gender identity"

The core sense of who I am includes my sex, which is male and finite and does not change regardless of what I am doing or how I am dressed. As far as I am concerned, gender is a non-issue. I neither feel it or sense it, at least as I understand the meaning of the word. Do I express my own femininity from time to time? Of course I do, as do probably at least 95% of the male population if they could only get beyond cultural indoctrination and be honest. They may not express it by their clothing choices, but appearance is but a small part of the total person.

Crossdressing as a word is a verb. Crossdresser simply means that I crossdress, which as I said is but one of many things that I am, and does not define me as a person. However transgender, by its meaning, describes the person, not one of his activities. You cannot be transgendered one day, and not transgendered the next. It becomes a condition of your being, and not an activity in which you sometimes indulge. As I am not of the opinion that I possess a gender in the modern sense of that word, how can I be transgendered.

I can accept that many people hold the modern opinions concerning gender, and thus transgender. I also recognize that many people do possess a condition that is commonly referred to as transgendered. I may debate the issues with them, but I do not attempt to say they are not what they feel themselves to be. By the same token, I do not like having people ridicule me for my views, and insist that because I crossdress I am transgendered. That approach used to be rampant on this forum when I first joined, and I did not visit here for several years after a very nasty exchange with some of the militants. When I checked back in, they had largely disappeared, and the current posters appeared to have a much more tolerant approach to everybody's views. I hope things are not reverting to those bad days.

Veronica

[Jacqueline Winona]

If you lived in San Francisco for example, and you knew that you could dress, put on a wig, forms, and not be read as a man in a dress, would you enjoy going out to lunch and being treated like a woman?
People in San Francisco are as smart as anyone else and read CD/TG/TS as well as those in Omaha or anywhere else. They just don't care as much. (Yes, trying to inject a little humor into this thread before it devolves any further).

[annecwesley]

I define cross-dressing as wearing apparel that is traditionally associated with or worn by the opposite gender. It has become entirely socially acceptable for women in this culture to cross-dress even though at one time it was not and in some sub-cultures a woman in pants or a tee shirt (a man’s undershirt) it still is considered unacceptable. People cross-dress for a number of reasons and I don’t believe there is a single “syndrome” where all of us are on the same “path” to some sort of womanhood. We are not a community; we are individuals with some common interests. At most we are communities, and we really cannot, or should not impose our expectations or values on the rest of the members of this forum. I oppose homosexual marriage and would oppose a man trying to pass as a woman in certain circumstances. Some forum members are horrified with this, but I have no obligation or inclination to buy into a particular agenda simply because I like to wear women’s clothing. I understand Freddy's point of view and have experienced the conflict between simple cross-dressing and other practices or lifestyles that incorporate men wearing woman’s clothing.


I cross-dress. Sometimes I even go out in public cross-dressed - a guy in a skirt. I don't do makeup, nor do I shave off my beard. The only reason I would try to "pass" is so that I might be able to go out in public and not feel so stared at! I enjoy, as sort of a hobby, taking photographs of myself looking as female as I possibly can look; I do not want to be female or live a female life. But if I had my way I would simply be able to wear whatever feminine or masculine attire suits my mood or task for the day.