Jess had it right. Unless we understand what our hearts are teaching us and listen to our feelings with this, we miss the point entirely.
Jess had it right. Unless we understand what our hearts are teaching us and listen to our feelings with this, we miss the point entirely.
Second star to the right and straight on till morning
This may get a little complex for some but please everyone read it. It may well blow your mind!Originally Posted by Jess
In the nucleus of every nucleated cell of my body (which is almost half of the biomass of me as we are all more colonies of bacteria than we are human at all anyway. The un-nucleated cells of course being just red blood cells carrying oxygen) there is the mitochondria, the organelle that powers every biological function. I eat to provide building materials but even more so for the suger that the mitochondria uses to run. I breathe so that the mitochondria has oxygen to run. It is the power source that makes all animals different from plants and allows us to be mobile and active and complex. And what is in the mitochondria? Why the DNA of all my maternal ancestors and none of my paternal ones!
Human DNA is based around the female!
But what about the DNA that designed my structure? Well I have an x chromosome and a Y chromosome and there are active and inactive genes on each (and some will turn on and others off over the course of my life). The x chromosome is female. GG's have two x chromosomes.. I have one. The Y chromosome adds the variations that make males.
And during development we all start as female until a trigger causes developing organs to turn male or continue female development or sometimes to get stuck in between.
So Every cell in my body is powered by a storehouse of female dna. The DNA that defined my development was half female and some of the male half wasn't even turned on.
Now brain differences between males and females are slight and generalised. Plenty of men have brain structure that is more female than the average females brain structure and vice versa. It is in the brain that the instincts, experiences, memories and behaviours are all centred. The difference in brain structure between any two humans is greater than the difference between the average man and woman so that gender difference is one that exists only as vague averages. Huge proportions of men have female-style brains and vice versa.
So what does that mean? It means that :
1. We are all more colonies of bacteria than human (the bacteria are smaller so more of them fit in but there are more bacteria cells inside than human)
2. Of those human cells, we are totally powered by female dna
3. What little of men that is different in design than women is small
4. men are only slight variations of female anyway
5. we were all female for part of our time in the womb
6. our brains, the seat of who we are, is hardly different between male and female at all and huge numbers of each gender have brains that are closer to the average of the other gender or well beyond the average.
More of all people is bacteria than human. More of all men is female than male.
So alas, biologically we are not very different at all.
The rest is created by differences in life experience.
Last edited by battybattybats; 12-11-2007 at 06:39 PM. Reason: layout
Stephenie I think you might be a bit confused. I think that perhaps we first need to agree on what it means to be feminine because you seem to have it confused with being female, which I don't believe is an actual requirement. I'm sure our FtM brothers will tell you that you don't have to be born male to be masculine. Kinda like what it means to be gay. Having sex with a man doesn't make you gay. wanting to have sex with a man makes you gay. Its defined by your thoughts, not your actions. So I believe that while the act of putting on a dress doesn't make you a feminine person, the fact that we want to, the fact that we have the desire to look pretty does make us feminine. That doesn't give us a womanhood pass, but it is something more that we have in common with woman than most men do. We can say this without claiming to be women, or to know what its like to be a woman. I think we have already established that there is masculine and feminine in everyone, so to imply that because we are men we can't be feminine puzzles me. If men by definition can't be feminine, what are so many of my Transgendered sisters getting beaten up out on the street for? I have yet to find a single person who says "Because I put on a dress, I'm a woman." What about those who feel their genders don't match their bodies? Does a TS know what its like to be a woman? Is an MtoF TS a true woman?When you put on a dress, it does not make you feminine. It makes you a man in a dress. That's what CDing is all about. This is a CDing forum. CDing means wearing the clothes of the oposite sex. This is perfectly OK. And as I said earlier, many women actually find that endearing and kinda cute.
BUT, trying to say you are more feminine, just because you put on a dress (and everything else that goes with it), IS insulting to women. There is NOTHING inherently FEMININE about wearing a dress. Women are feminine when they are NAKED for goodness sake.
Being a woman is not easy. You have to deal with lower pay, expectations of running a household AND working, expectations of attractiveness, not being listened to, and sexual harassment EVERYWHERE you go, just to name a few. Having your man say he is becoming more feminine by putting on a dress can easily be viewed as insulting to women. The clothing is SUCH a small part of womenhood as to be ludicrous.
Start with being more empathetic, more nurturing, more helpfull, more kind, more understanding, gentler, nicer, softer, more friendly, and considerate. Start by remembering birthdays, wipe noses, change diapers, fold clothes, cook dinner, clean the house, buy your own damn clothes, and then go off to work for less money.
There is NOTHING wong with wanting to wear a dress. It can be a lot of fun. That's not what is insulting. What is insulting, is trying to claim some aspect of femininity and womanhood by dressing up in our clothes.
Lovies,
Stephenie
As for the "Start with being more empathetic" paragraph, I've done each and every one of those things, does that make me a woman? Its just plain predjudice to assume that because we are male we are none of those things, or that because someone is female they are all of them..
Last edited by Violetgray; 12-11-2007 at 06:57 PM.
It has been posted many times here that "clothes don't make the woman" (or the man for that matter.) I have to agree 100% with this. I am as much of a woman in a pair of old jeans and a grubby t-shirt, working under the hood of a car with my husband as I am in a cocktail dress, makeup to the nines, and stiletto heels that could kill a man with a well placed kick. My husband is still all-man in a dress, but there is a more visible cue that he is in touch with his female side when he is wearing a dress (does that make sense? it did in my head) I think what I am trying to convey here is that I haven't lost any respect for the PERSON I am married to when he is presenting differently than the persona that society has boxed him into. Clothes are really just an outward affectation, symbol, or method of covering one's nudity. Nothing more, nothing less.
And I know that many are uncomfortable with the assertation that they are just clothes. But they are just clothes. (as pertaining to this discussion)
However, it's the reasoning, behaviors, justifications, psychology, etc. that are part and parcel of crossdressing that, for me, are subject to this discussion. I think it's important to separate the two subjects. There are some who will find the idea of a dude in a dress insulting. I don't happen to agree with this line of thought, but I am not going to tell someone else what they are allowed to think and feel.
I personally don't think that being a crossdresser makes a person selfish, self-absorbed, thoughtless, or any other label we might place on someone who appears to be acting in a manner that some....GG's for example....may find insulting. I think that those who do act in such a fashion would probably be just as insulting in a pair of manly pants, cowboy boots, and wearing a Burt Reynolds mustache. I do feel that taking a man who is an a$$ in drab and putting him in drag, will simply leave you with an a$$ in drag.
It's not about crossdressing.
It's not about the clothes.
It's about who the person is at the core to begin with. JMHO.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
When life gives you a crossdresser, screw the lemonade.......grab your bags and go shopping!!
Thank you for putting into words what I have been thinking.
Louise.
This is a pretty interesting question, and there are some great responses.
I think for me, there are two aspects to dressing.
First, it's a fetish.
Something, such as a material object or a nonsexual part of the body, that arouses sexual desire and may become necessary for sexual gratification. Yes. I like bras, they turn me on. And pantyhose, and lipstick. I've known women who got turned on by guy's hands, by sweaty clothes, and leather chairs.
Go figure. As far as I'm concerned, a fetish is just a kink, and is neither insulting nor complimentary toward women. And our culture has made femininity, the kind you can buy, the most desirable commodity around. Not surprising guys would like lingerie, too! If women feel insulted because guys talk like women then perhaps the insult has come from advertisers and marketing geniuses, who have turned womanhood into a commodity.
Then, it can be a deeper fetish.
....an object regarded with awe as being the embodiment or habitation of a potent spirit or as having magical potency.
That's seems a bit over the top, yet I deeply identify with women and feminine qualities. I don't think I AM a woman, yet I have had many extremely moving experiences dressed as a woman. Most cultures, also, have some recognition of this, even ceremonies where men dress and imitate women.
Most of us also began dressing before puberty, and I would conclude from that that the desire to dress isn't primarily sexual. For many of us dressing allows us to express feminine qualities of kindness, softness, caring, and sensitivity that men in our culture are not "allowed" to express. My guess is that it's not uncommon for women to be merely tolerant of the dress, but very much in love with the soft and gentle guy who emerges once he's inside it.
...enough. i'm going to put on my bra, have a glass of wine, and enjoy the lipstick mark on the glass....:2c:
waspookie6 hit the nail on the head.. competition.
You HAVE done each and every one of those things? Or you DO each and every one of those things. Clearly it doesn't make you a woman. But neither does putting on a dress make you feminine.
I'm not confused at all. I am quite clear.
The question asked was, "is CDing insulting to women?"
I answered the question clearly, twice. No, CDing is NOT insulting to women.
Then I tried to explain what IS insulting to women.
What IS insulting to women is a man trying to claim some aspect of womanhood by dressing up in women's clothes. That's all. Simple, not hard to understand if you think about it a bit. Try.
Stephenie
I don't see it as insulting to women that we dress like them at all.
But like i others have said we all do it for different reasons. I don't dress to mock women i do it b/c i enjoy that other said of me. Plus its not easy to act like women do when you grow up as a man. So women wear pants i don't take that as insulting at all so they should think its insulting if i wear a skirt are a dress.
Good bye i'm at wacko taco .com now
If what offends some women is men trying to claim womanhood just by wearing the clothes alone... and no-one seems to be doing that.. then women are being offended by a missperception of what CDs are doing?
Stephanie, being "the mother" can be done by both sexes and often is in todays world. I have done this for my son from age 2 1/2 to now (he's 21yrs now and thankfully gainfully employed) while running a medium size business. Life has been hectic at times but very rewarding. I believe I have done a good job on all of counts of your motherhood list above.
My wife gave me an anniversary card recently which thanked me for being empathetic, gentle, considerate, strong (emotionally), and -the part I liked most - a good soul mate and partner.
I also wear dresses occassionally to express inner emotions I am feeling.
So now, from your post, I can assume I am almost the complete female - except for the you know whatsit down there.:D
Do you find that insulting?
Well to help you out, I do not consider myself a female. I am proud to be a male or female. I also feel gifted to feel feminine sometimes as I do. And I feel that it is insulting to have these actual feelings discounted. To me they feel real. A woman cannot know that I do not "feel" female or feminine. For all either of us know, I may very well be right on the button. The only difference is that mine may be fleeting and yours permanent, because I have other important roles to fill in my life as a male. Once again neither of us know for sure, though.
My invitation to you is that instead of us both getting insulted, how about we explore the common ground and enjoy it. Teach me how to be a better femme so I can be a better person. I'll teach you a few masculine traits you may want to adopt. We can start off talking about disposable diapers (we call them nappies here in NZ) if you wish but that really would be a side issue until we got down to our personal feelings and opinions. Then I think you would discover we have more in common than not. Because we are both humans and come from the same genestock many moons ago!
Jazzmine
Last edited by Jazzmine; 12-12-2007 at 06:32 AM.
I'm happy being male but happier in a skirt!
I'm a strong man on the outside and a strong woman on the inside.
Now... you reminded me of the last time I went out for dinner (there were seven of us, all dressed like this - well, we thought it was funny...)
Nicki
[SIZE="1"]Moi?[/SIZE]
Dear Jazzmine,
No, hon, I'm not insulted.
And I'm willing to bet that your SO does not feel insulted by your putting on a dress. From your description, my post was not aimed at you.
Your mention of nappies brought back a memory and a smile to my face, though. Let me tell you about it.
Years and years ago, I was an young and inexperienced mom (dad?) with my first infant (alone). (I had been through other infants with my partners, but this was my first by myself. I was living in a small Newfoundland outport town (200 people). There were NO disposable diapers available, all I had was cloth, and certainly no diaper service, which was what my parents had had. Suddenly I had to deal with dirty diapers with no indoor plumbing, and no running water.
In Newfoundland there was a product called Nappie-San. You suposedly just let the nappies soak in this solution overnight and they came out looking fine in the morning. OK, but I had LOADED nappies to deal with and NO flush toilet. I DID, however, have an old style wringer washer with an open top and a big agitator in the tub. So, I would load the dirty nappies into the washer, add some hot water I heated on the wood stove (converted to naptha), and let them agitate for a few hours. I could then pump the whole brown mess down the kitchen sink drain into the ocean (ICK!!, but remember I was young and alone and EVERYONE'S sink drained into the ocean) (So did the toilets of the few in town who were lucky enough to have toilets). Then I could dump the poopless nappies into the Nappie-San in a 5 gallon (about 21 liter) bucket and let them soak over night.
Well, it worked. So that was my (somewhat embarrassing to look back on) solution to the problem of what to do with dirty nappies.
As I said, the memory brought a smile to my face. Thanks.
Lovies,
Stephenie
Last edited by Stephenie S; 12-12-2007 at 07:39 PM.
Well, sweetie, it IS funny.Now... you reminded me of the last time I went out for dinner (there were seven of us, all dressed like this - well, we thought it was funny...)
Lovies,
I feel guilty about it sometimes. It may appear that by crossdressing we are saying this is what being a woman is all about. And it my imply that we believe women should be feminine in their attire, when maybe it is not so important to them, as it surely has little with being a woman.
As a male, I love to see women looking good and dressed up. I do not expect it, nor do I demand it. My SO is a good example of this. She does not care about clothes too much. It is a trivial matter to her. But she understands it is a big deal to me. I do not ask her to get dressed up, yet since I have been dressing up, she has shown more interest in doing so, to my benefit!
It is old hat to most GGs. They grew up making up and dressing to look good. It is not terribly exciting for many. It remains though, for many. With the complicated lives most modern women live, why spend time and effort dressing, when they are not longer expected to? We never got that chance in the first place.
I know I may get hammered for this. But I really do believe in spite of the above, that many women do want their husbands to be a bit more romantic and to spend more time with them. And maybe their love lives might benefit from being a little sexier from time to time and that includes dressing and making up and surprising their husbands with occasional different looks.
It is funny that my wife loves me to look good as a man from time to time. She also adores it when I look good as "her" girl. Yet she rarely makes an attempt at dressing up herself. But I see her trying it now. I think it is coming...Yeah! Hooray for crossdressing! It may still save some ladies (and their counterparts) from their drab wear!
Michelia
Hmmmmmm. You are really working the 'stashesNow... you reminded me of the last time I went out for dinner (there were seven of us, all dressed like this - well, we thought it was funny...)
But somehow I don't see Burly Burt joining you in dressing
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
When life gives you a crossdresser, screw the lemonade.......grab your bags and go shopping!!
Thanks Stephanie
Nappie-San ... yes I still use the stuff - good for removing stains on most things!
I used real nappies too for my son, initially. Your story made me laugh because I had similar experiences flushing (scraping) poops down old tubs - at least I had fresh running water! Yuk and Yuk. Things we do.
Doing that stuff would be a good initiating program for CD-mother wannabe's do you think? We could start a community service using us CDrs to run round and do the nappie service for new mothers. Nah, wouldn't work, not enough glamour!!!
Beating the sh!t out of nappies is an insult to both sexes I reckon, but the reasons we do it are commendable.
Hugs Jazzmine
I'm happy being male but happier in a skirt!
I'm a strong man on the outside and a strong woman on the inside.
Hello Linda Marie!
I am the selfish person that your wife is talking about. I dress to excite myself and go "ahh" in the mirror. I love the smells, feel and visual attraction I get from looking in the mirror at myself when dressed. And because I have spent so much time trying to get there, I go out to get more excitement for myself. She would be right if she was talking to me!
I have to agree with a lot of what I see here. Most CDs want to be feminine in a much broader sense than just what they wear. Women should be flattered, and likewise they should be much more inclined to be insulted by a GG who behaves inappropriately.
That said, there are those who claim to be CDs who are insulting to everybody. I'm talking about the middle-aged bald biker with a huge mustache who puts on panties and stockings and starts firing off lewd instant messages to people in CD groups. That's simultaneously insulting to all that is masculine and feminine.
I find that extremely depressing. Seriously, I feel absolutely terrible after thinking about that for a few minutes. All I can think of is that 99% of CDs here would love to make a dish for the person down the street, and be the sweetest girl ever. I don't really need to get into the tragic details of why that is hardly possible for most. But I'll have my friends over to grill and have a beer, and I'll visit friends and relatives in the hospital or nursing home whenever I can.
Dee I agree with everything you said. And I take your point about (everyday) clothes just being a cover for our underlying nudity.
On another level though the costumes we wear are more than just a body cover. We all use clothing as a symbol of who we are. CDs are no different.
E.g. Please excuse the crassness but soldiers from USA would not want to be seen dead in an Iranian soldiers uniform. It's not what they stand for. Which simply goes to show that our costume is very important to us as individuals and collectively.
When a man puts on a dress he does so at considerable risk (I know you know most of them so won't attempt a list). He has fought every piece of logic his brain (in my case, like Pooh Bear, a very little one) can throw at him, to override it, and still persue dressing up. The lingerie and the dress are a symbol of what he feels he must be or become, even if it is for a few minutes, because that is who he feels he is at that time.
There is no mockery in this dressing. There might be bad fashion sense and technique. It is also mostly a hopeless affair because once 12 o'clock comes Cinderella turns back into a pumpkin. Yet we still feel compelled to carry on.
How this can be conceived as insulting to woman is beyond me. Like I said I have a rather small brain. CDs love their girl time. It's precious to them. It engenders special feelings. For a short time it erases aggressive testosterone and replaces it with softer female gender therapy. GGs may mock our feelings as male sourced. But is it? How do you judge? I certainly do not feel "masculine" when I am in femme mode, it's quite different. So what am I feeling? I want and try very hard for it to be feminine. I have some estrogen coursing through my body like every male does. Could it be I can get glimpses of being a female?
I think this is more fascinating than insulting.
Last edited by Jazzmine; 12-13-2007 at 04:16 AM.
I'm happy being male but happier in a skirt!
I'm a strong man on the outside and a strong woman on the inside.
Stupidly naiive... in thinking that everyone is wanting to have lewd instant messages sent to them sure... but insulting to all that is masculine and feminine?That said, there are those who claim to be CDs who are insulting to everybody. I'm talking about the middle-aged bald biker with a huge mustache who puts on panties and stockings and starts firing off lewd instant messages to people in CD groups. That's simultaneously insulting to all that is masculine and feminine.
So for those who think some cding is insulting.. only those who get close to passing, who dress conservatively and who try and be just like 'women' are not insulting to women? Only those whose dressing is not sexual are ok?
That's the crossdressing communities equivalent of the burka. Really it is.
You'll only be acceptable and not an insult if you fit within these parameters of acceptability....
Well as a person whose nature has me burdened and blessed with a desire to express aspects of each gender I must have the right to express both of these seperatly and simultaneuosly if that is my desire. So any suggestion that I must hide my duel nature in either one gender or the other, and then only in a conservative and effective manner, is more than merely insulting.
Who could even define what it is to be a 'woman'. Is the lesbian friend of mine a 'woman'? She wears much more masculine clothes than I do. Her hair is more of a mens haircut than mine. She doesn't find anything insulting about peoples crossdressing.. is she any less a woman?
Do I have to take on the flaws of the genetic females in this society too? Should I binge drink in my teens? Should I shoplift? Should I say one thing to one friend only to say another to another? Should I secretly compete with all my friends? Should I be sexist? Should I try and tear down the self esteem of those I feel envious of? Should I make constant derogatory comments about groups of people to whom I do not belong?...... these are all things that are more common amongst women in my community than men. It's not true of all women I know of course, far from it, but then what exactly is?
No, it is not the CDing that is insulting.
I thoroughly agree with you. And I also have met genetic women who would never be so compassionate or if they did it would only be for appearances. Other genetic women have been some of the most kind and good people I know, but then so have some of the men.All I can think of is that 99% of CDs here would love to make a dish for the person down the street, and be the sweetest girl ever. I don't really need to get into the tragic details of why that is hardly possible for most. But I'll have my friends over to grill and have a beer, and I'll visit friends and relatives in the hospital or nursing home whenever I can.
Kindness, empathy, decency, these are not gender-specific traits. Expression of emotion except under certain circumstances has culturally become so though.
Believe me, I've got plenty masculine traits when I'm wearing a skirt, and I'm not disparaging anyone just because they're not embarking on the road to full-on gender reassignment.
What I mean is that leaving the massive biker 'stache on and thinking you're feminine just because you're wearing a little lingerie -- while putting zero actual effort into being attractive (and I'm thinking of a particularly scary pic I got from a seriously hairy guy nearly buck naked on his bed) I must say -- is an insult to femininity. And the fact that he thinks he can just put it out there like that with no attempt at tact is an insult to masculinity.
I agree with you completely Batty. But then, it boils down to what I have been saying all along about men. And I will say it includes women also. In humankind, we will find a variety of differnent people. Some will be compassionate, some hurtful, some insulting, some uplifting, etc. etc. etc. Our little community here, and the larger CDing community is going to have the same breakdown of personality types.
It's not the CDing that is insulting. There are some personality types that are going to rub other personality types the wrong way. The insulting behaviors they engage in are irrelevant to CDing. It is only because we know these individuals from the crossdressing community that we can possibly draw parallels between dressing and asinine behavior. But, as I said before. Take that a$$ out of the dress and he is still an a$$. I don't think the dressing causes the CDer to behave like that. It's just that this person expresses themselves in an insulting manner regardless of gender presentation. I am 100% certain that the individuals who annoy me most here, would annoy me just as much if I met them in drab on the street. Who knows......maybe I have.
If any of you recognize me as the person who was looking at you with disgust and annoyance on the street.....then it's you I am talking about
I would like to throw this out too, in the interest of equal time. I am sure that I, as a GG, annoy plenty of people here. Does that mean that being a GG is automatically annoying or insulting to CDs? No, of course not. It does however mean that my personality rubs some people the wrong way. Does this also mean that they are in the wrong for their feelings toward me? Of course not.
To quote an 80's classic sitcom song:
"the world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you, may not be right for some." :D :p (annoying....ain't it???)
There are a few drummers on here that I find personally insulting. Most are on ignore. They ARE insulting to me, because I FIND their attitudes to be insulting. The definition of insult is: To treat with gross insensitivity, insolence, or contemptuous rudeness.. I think we need to pay special attention to the first of these: gross insensitivity. How many of us are guilty of being insulting by our insensitivity. It is no less insulting if unintended. The insult is there. By being unintentional, it becomes easier to excuse and forgive the insult. It does not however, negate the insult.
What does this epic post boil down to? This bears repeating.
It's not the CDing that is insulting. It is random people who behave in a grossly insensitive, insolent, or contemptuously rude manner whom are insulting. There are some CD's who behave this way, but the crossdressing is irrelevant.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
When life gives you a crossdresser, screw the lemonade.......grab your bags and go shopping!!
I've been looking through the gg's comments, and this one seems to be something of the essence. It agrees with my experience, as well.
When my g/f discovered me, she at first angry :Angry3: , then tolerant. We'd go out to movies and I'd wear lingerie under my drab. She would go along because she liked the sex afterward.
She didn't like my absorption in dressing. After a while I relaxed and was less absorbed, and she did too. She discovered that she really loved Chrissie, who was kind and gentle and sweet (and like to clean house
Chrissie was VERY happy about this, and dressing became less urgent, and more fun. Now, I can be kind and nurturing and sweet--whether I'm dressed or not, and I'm a better person. The sex is good, too.
Please elaborate on "putting effort" into gender identity. Maybe you can redeem how shallow and narrow that paragraph sounded.
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