Whose decision is it?

[Nicki B]

I agree that a partner has a choice as to whether she wants to stay in the relationship after her husband informs her he intends to transition, and if not immediately, eventually she will come to realize it is also her choice to leave the marriage, but to accuse her of being ignorant, prejudiced and not enlightened discounts her heterosexuality. Not every woman is able to alter her sexuality or live in a platonic marriage to accommodate a transsexual partner.

Reine, forgive me for using your comment to build another discussion on (it's absolutely not meant as an attack on you).

How much choice is there in a relationship and how much should there be?

The focus here is so often on crossdressing (and often the associated deceit), but what if your spouse falls ill, is mutilated, brain injured, or fundamentally changed in some other way, for example so they can no longer have sex?

Does this give anyone the right to say 'the rules have changed and so I'm outta here', or should we pay more attention to the promise many of us made 'for better, for worse, in sickness and in health', etc?

And, if it doesn't - why is cross-dressing different? The assumption, from many posts here, seems to be that it's a choice. The behaviour might be - but how can the thoughts and feelings be?

[GaleWarning]

You make an excellent point, Nicki.
If two people get married for better for worse etc, why should crossdressing become a divorce-causing issue?
The reason for secrecy is embarrassment, not anything illegal or immoral, in almost every case.
Adjusting to the arrival of children causes huge upheavals and levels of adjustment in any marriage. CDing should not be any worse.
Good on you!

[sarahNZ]

Well Kelly I can't speak on behalf of anyone else but in my particular case the choise was all hers (the GF). I was given two options stop or leave! I chose to stop, sadly what I didn't realise at the time was I can not stop, it is who I am! I did my best to keep to my promise but my earges got the better of me, and hey presto streight back into it again. A few years later (now the) wifey caught me at it again, started a row yada yada... (the D word)... blah blah

2 months later she has moved on, new bloke in my bed etc etc... now apart for 6 months and I can honestly say I would accept her back into my life! (What can I say... I love my wife or I would not have married her!) Sadly once again not my decision, I can not force her to change her mind.

I hope that gives you some semblence of an answer that you can use.

[Kelli Michelle]

Well Kelly I can't speak on behalf of anyone else but in my particular case the choise was all hers (the GF). I was given two options stop or leave! I chose to stop, sadly what I didn't realise at the time was I can not stop, it is who I am! I did my best to keep to my promise but my earges got the better of me, and hey presto streight back into it again. A few years later (now the) wifey caught me at it again, started a row yada yada... (the D word)... blah blah

2 months later she has moved on, new bloke in my bed etc etc... now apart for 6 months and I can honestly say I would accept her back into my life! (What can I say... I love my wife or I would not have married her!) Sadly once again not my decision, I can not force her to change her mind.

I hope that gives you some semblence of an answer that you can use.

That is sad, for sure. As ReineD said, she certainly has the right to make her own decision on the matter. She basically realizes, I guess, that you will be unable to stop forever, so she has made her choice. Fair enough. Can love trump cding? That has been the basis for many threads in this forum, either directly or indirectly. For some people it can, for others no. Do you think you could give it up completely, seriously? Or at least mitigate to something minor? If you could, with new resolve, you could approach her again---or is she just "done"?

As you know I have my own issues, but I hate to see any 2 people, who loved each other at one point, break up. I feel your pain. If you want to message me personally, please feel free.

[sarahNZ]

Why are CDs sick? How about those who are transphobic getting professional help instead.

well said!

in reply Kelly we have talked on many ocasions but she has moved on. Knowing how seriously this affects her has changed my way of thinking some what, I have told her that I would give up completely to have her back but I guess she knows better, or at least does not think that my being stuck in man mode to keep her happy (and lets face it if she is happy I am happy enough) should be an option, as you say "I have a right to be happy too"

[GaleWarning]

As I have stated earlier on this thread, it is my experience that there is always some other issue, but CDing is used as the excuse for breaking up.
It's sad, sarah. Life does get better, though.

[LA CINDY LOVE]

You make an excellent point, Nicki.
If two people get married for better for worse etc, why should crossdressing become a divorce-causing issue?
The reason for secrecy is embarrassment, not anything illegal or immoral, in almost every case.
Adjusting to the arrival of children causes huge upheavals and levels of adjustment in any marriage. CDing should not be any worse.
Good on you!

Well... they do say that you get married for better or for worst.....but that is not really true. People get divorce for a number of reasons and cross dressing is one of those reasons why people get divorce......you just do not hear about it.

I do not feel that people use cross dressing as a excuse to get a divorce, I have not heard were a wife or GF found out you were CD and ran out the front door for a divorce,
first they let you know how they feel and if they can not deal with your cross dressing them you get the ultimatum, stop or I will leave.

There is NO way that you can compare the arrival of a child to a marriage and the joy not upheavals that may come to that of discovering that your mate is a cross dresser.

TO SAY THAT BEING MARRIED TO A CROSS DRESSER IS NO WORST THEN HAVING A CHILD IS REALLY SAD.

I was always told that getting married is easy but living together............


LA CINDY LOVE

[ReineD]

And, if it doesn't - why is cross-dressing different? The assumption, from many posts here, seems to be that it's a choice.

I agree, it is a very difficult situation, and you raise an excellent point. I wish I had some answers.

I don't know of anyone personally who has gone through facing the decision to stay in a marriage with a spouse who suddenly experiences debilitating health issues, and I imagine each situation is different depending on their ages and the degree of illness or deterioration. People do stay in marriages after a partner suffers loss of limb or eyesight, which might compare in terms of severity to a spouse engaging in CDing vs. wanting to transition. This is a gruesome comparison, but I am using it since if falls within the examples you used. Or, in the case of a terminal illness, love and human compassion would obviously motivate staying the course until death. But, if it is a case of severe brain injury with major loss of functioning ... would a partner stay to care for her spouse, but get her emotional and physical needs met elsewhere? Are they 35 years old or are they 70? Or would the spouse go into a facility that would provide the type of physical care he would require and the partner might remarry but continue to visit and care for her ex the rest of her life? And in the case of a spinal chord injury where a spouse retains intellectual functioning ... I've heard stories of such spouses giving their partners permission to get their physical needs met elsewhere out of love for them. Sad.

In the more severe cases, the disabled spouses cannot care for themselves and it would be terribly cold and uncaring to just abandon them to their fate. But, I imagine this happens too. Still, none of these cases involve the healthy partner having to make fundamental changes about herself such as her sexuality or her definition of love and marriage. And society supports spouses spouses who cope with disabled partners rather than ostracize them.

I do agree no one chooses to be born transgendered. And in an ideal world, TGs who are TS realize this before beginning a lifelong commitment with someone who believes they are marrying men (in the case of M2Fs). But I do view altering one's gender differently than the above cases, whether someone opts for SRS or not. Even if the realization that one is not a male comes years into the marriage, the TG retains full functioning and is able to seek happiness with someone whose sexual preference and emotional needs is a better fit. As can his wife.

Having said all this, there are still GGs who do continue the journey with their TS husbands. I imagine the reasons are varied. But, there would have to be a great deal of mutual love and respect between the partners and the marriages would likely be free of other marital issues. Maybe for some, the TS wishes to retain male functionality, so is non-op and the partners continue to be able to share sexual intimacy. Also everyone has different needs from relationships, and a physical relationship is not a priority for many people. Perhaps for others GGs married to post-ops, the emotional needs met within the relationship are a far greater priority than having sex. Or, they define sex differently for themselves. Or perhaps some GGs discover they are not solidly at the very heterosexual end of the spectrum.

I do not believe that GGs who cannot stay through a transition stop loving their spouses because they are transgendered. I imagine it is devastating to know that they continue to love their partners but they realize their mutual needs cannot be met .. they cannot bridge the gap.

[Nicki B]

Or would the spouse go into a facility that would provide the type of physical care he would require and the partner might remarry but continue to visit and care for her ex the rest of her life?

So - and this is meant as a general question - is it reasonable to split up if someone has fundamentally changed?

Still, none of these cases involve the healthy partner having to make fundamental changes about herself such as her sexuality or her definition of love and marriage. And society supports spouses spouses who cope with disabled partners rather than ostracize them.

Certainly true - but the person they married isn't the same person anymore, in a similar way? Should they be treated differently?

Having said all this, there are still GGs who do continue the journey with their TS husbands. I imagine the reasons are varied. But, there would have to be a great deal of mutual love and respect between the partners and the marriages would likely be free of other marital issues.

Transitioning to live full time as the opposite gender is certainly a severe strain on a marriage between a man and a woman. But there seem to be many members here who have found their partners couldn't cope with the concept of cross-dressing at all, not transitioning...

Is it always symptomatic of other underlying issues? Or is it that it is seen as unacceptable in some societies to continue a marriage in such conditions?

There seems to be no pressure from society to stop a partner leaving, for this reason - whereas, as you say, there is often some support for dealing with a major disability?

Perhaps people who have been there might want to comment?

[ReineD]

Certainly true - but the person they married isn't the same person anymore, in a similar way? Should they be treated differently?

In some cases, yes. Neither are physically or mentally impaired and they both have a chance to find more suitable partners.

What happens if, during a marriage, one partner discovers 'religion' and decides he wants to join a sect and live in the commune, ... or he decides he wants to give away all his earthly goods and live in poverty in a different country among lepers? These are extreme cases ... no doubt there are less severe examples of major changes in life goals. But should the spouse follow him if the new lifestyle goes against her own system of values? What about spouses who cannot continue to stay in marriages with philanderers or people who have difficulty overcoming their gambling, spending, or alcohol abuse compulsions?

Transitioning to live full time as the opposite gender is certainly a severe strain on a marriage between a man and a woman. But there seem to be many members here who have found their partners couldn't cope with the concept of cross-dressing at all, not transitioning...

True, but there ARE many SOs who stay in marriages and choose to support the CDing. I imagine this will continue to improve in time with more positive education and media coverage. There are many new GGs joining this site who come fully prepared to support their partners. I don't imagine this was the case 5 or 10 years ago.

Is it always symptomatic of other underlying issues? Or is it that it is seen as unacceptable in some societies to continue a marriage in such conditions?

My guess is the failure to support CDing is symptomatic of underlying issues. But many of the CDers do not wish to out themselves so the fear of being ostracized as the result of living openly femme is not as great. For marriages with transitioning women, then likely the fear of society's views plays a part in the decision to leave the marriage, but I would guess not as much as an inability for the GG to continue to see her spouse as a romantic partner.

There seems to be no pressure from society to stop a partner leaving, for this reason - whereas, as you say, there is often some support for dealing with a major disability?

Hopefully things will change in our lifetime. But I do agree with Batty. CDers would have to come out en masse and make themselves visible fighting for TG rights in order to be a catalyst for change. However, not everyone has that type of courage, especially if they have families to support. It is a very sad quandary.

[battybattybats]

In some cases, yes. Neither are physically or mentally impaired and they both have a chance to find more suitable partners.

I don't know if the statistic has changed since the 90's but at least then most marriages where chronic fatigue syndrome strikes one partner ended in divorce! Especially if the afflicted was the wife!

Hopefully things will change in our lifetime. But I do agree with Batty. CDers would have to come out en masse and make themselves visible fighting for TG rights in order to be a catalyst for change. However, not everyone has that type of courage, especially if they have families to support. It is a very sad quandary.

I suspect the desire to protect spouses by many CDs is a big reason, perhaps even the biggest reason, why we have not gone far while Gays etc have overtaken TG in achieving equality.

Perhaps the spouses of CDs may need to take a more active role in encouraging CDs to come out for their wives sake, their families and the broader communities sake as well as to campain for greater civil rights? Because otherwise many CDs just wont be willing to put their families through it even if its for the greater good of all.

We have seen the mothers and fathers of TG kids become a strong force for TG rights lately.

Maybe part of what we need is for more wives to similarly stand up as well as helping their husbands do so?

[Satrana]

As I have stated earlier on this thread, it is my experience that there is always some other issue

It is too simplistic to say that CDing is always used as a proxy. It is clear that many SOs see the behavior as a major issue in its own right.

It is said that CDing is the straw that broke the camel's back but in many cases a more accurate description would be the 6x3 plank that broke the camel's back.

With 50% of marriages ending in divorce within five years, our society now largely ignores the purpose behind the marriage vows to stick together through thick and thin and find ways to support and understand each other. Our consumer society has put self-gratification on a pedestal and if our partner is not delivering the goods we want and believe we deserve then the advice is to quit and try again. We feel cheated if we end up with someone who does not fit our requirements to make us feel good about ourselves.

The reaction of SOs is in essence a reflection of where society stands not just on TG issues but on relationships and where lines should be drawn on what issues can be coped with and what is forgivable to walk away from.

[Kelli Michelle]

Clearly, it is the cding that causes the split, whether there were other problems or not. I mean if the cding didn't come out, there would be no ultimatum, at least not at that point, right? It is possible that the other issues may have had the effect that the wife was less accepting, of the cding. I mean if you are not getting along well, in general, it seems less likely she will try to be accepting.

Truly, once the parameters of the marriage are changed, we all have to re-evaluate, and make a call. This is influenced by love of one's partner, family, need to express oneself, etc. While one can understand where each other is coming from, it doesn't mean they will agree. That doesn't make either one of them a bad person. If the marriage does not work at that point, we could hope that "split" will be handled with as much grace and decorum as possible. Sadly, this doesn't always happen.

[GaleWarning]

I can only speak from my own experience. Three women; two say they are comfortable with my dressing. I split from the first - nothing to do with non-acceptance. The second split from me - nothing to do with non-acceptance. In both instances, CDing was cited as a major cause (by the women). My present SO was pleased when, the other day, I packed all my girly stuff away, despite her claim of total acceptance. I can pick up the vibes!
That's just the way it is around here.

[shesadvl]

I can only speak from my own experience. Three women; two say they are comfortable with my dressing. I split from the first - nothing to do with non-acceptance. The second split from me - nothing to do with non-acceptance. In both instances, CDing was cited as a major cause (by the women). My present SO was pleased when, the other day, I packed all my girly stuff away, despite her claim of total acceptance. I can pick up the vibes!
That's just the way it is around here.

now this is where everyone will get to know who your SO is... no i wasnt pleased he packed his things away what he didnt tell you he has given up cding for LENT, I admired him for doing that, he did not have to do this at all.. now what does that tell you... I love you no matter sheesh... men???? cding enfemme or what... grrrrrrrrrrr he couldve just left them in the wardrobe/closet nomatter that ...was his choice to do this... once again "whose choice is it" or "decision is it"...????
the above is his opinion only.
Dont ever assume nothing where it be me my dawling only the position is warranted...laffing....;oP~~~

[Nicki B]

Clearly, it is the cding that causes the split, whether there were other problems or not.

A trans-friend of mine's partner knew for more than ten years - but she only walked out of the relationship when my friend's MS symptom's started to get really bad (diminishing sight, balance and other function problems, depression....

[marny]

LISA 99% of us are not gay...........get a grip!!!! and I am being polite! marny

[shesadvl]

As I have stated earlier on this thread, it is my experience that there is always some other issue, but CDing is used as the excuse for breaking up.
It's sad, But Life is & does get better, though.

No its not the CDing that causes the excuse for breaking up in most cases, its the ability to cheat whether it be on each other , knowing where to see what is in front of you, because once its gone, you never know what you had..or you have just thrown it away because you dont want to deal with or make a "decision or choice"
re the situation....
yes clayfish is right, its always some other issue, (as he has first hand experience)... as in like another female,.. "Not the CDing ".. a hetrosexual one, that as men/women, do no matter if they CD or not, create these situations with other females/women, that also goes for women who find other men, that is called "cheating on each other" , not acceptable no matter how one puts it.
CDer's as well , I have read here that there are SO's on here that have been in this same very situation, also

Even if there is communication on the above ,talk it out or through to salvage, or rectify a relationship, that with the continuance of contact with these women/men, that is deemed so called "(friends)," is this acceptable?, even though there has been infidelity, ?? that this contact continues.??
Here in, what is really acceptable?, & what is not, even though the parties are in two different countrys say for now., or elsewhere. Also knowing that the person/party that an infidelity has been committed with, does not know the level of CDing. Then where does that leave either SO to make or even consider a "choice or Decision" to all this., if resolution cannot be found.???? That the person who has committed the infidelity does not want to loose the relationship they have. (cant have the best if both words??)

Originally Posted by ReineD
"In some cases, yes. Neither are physically or mentally impaired and they both have a chance to find more suitable partners."

Does this also allow them to find more then one partner whether it be male or female, even though they are in a relationship ????

[Kelli Michelle]

No its not the CDing that causes the excuse for breaking up in most cases, its the ability to cheat whether it be on each other , knowing where to see what is in front of you, because once its gone, you never know what you had..or you have just thrown it away because you dont want to deal with or make a "decision or choice"
re the situation....
yes clayfish is right, its always some other issue, (as he has first hand experience)... as in like another female,.. "Not the CDing ".. a hetrosexual one, that as men/women, do no matter if they CD or not, create these situations with other females/women, that also goes for women who find other men, that is called "cheating on each other" , not acceptable no matter how one puts it.
CDer's as well , I have read here that there are SO's on here that have been in this same very situation, also

Even if there is communication on the above ,talk it out or through to salvage, or rectify a relationship, that with the continuance of contact with these women/men, that is deemed so called "(friends)," is this acceptable?, even though there has been infidelity, ?? that this contact continues.??
Here in, what is really acceptable?, & what is not, even though the parties are in two different countrys say for now., or elsewhere. Also knowing that the person/party that an infidelity has been committed with, does not know the level of CDing. Then where does that leave either SO to make or even consider a "choice or Decision" to all this., if resolution cannot be found.???? That the person who has committed the infidelity does not want to loose the relationship they have. (cant have the best if both words??)

Originally Posted by ReineD
"In some cases, yes. Neither are physically or mentally impaired and they both have a chance to find more suitable partners."

Does this also allow them to find more then one partner whether it be male or female, even though they are in a relationship ????

I think we all go down a slippery slope when we use absolutes in describing anything, unless it's a law of physics.

"It's always some other issue." Really? Always? Anecdotal data is useful for explaining a point, but to indicate it as THE answer, is just wishful thinking except for that particular person to whom it occurred.

Not sure how we got around to "infidelity" as an issue here, but...it doesn't apply, at least to me. I suppose it's possible that people on this forum have "cheated" on a spouse, but I haven't seen very many admit it, which doesn't prove anything, really. In my opinion, if that is the case (cheating on top of cding), the cder doesn't have a leg to stand on.

In regard to potential"other problems" let's take two scenarios. One, no real problems, the couple is loving, reasonably forthcoming about issues, etc, a true partnership. Let's say the huband confesses to his wife re. his cding. Will she accept it? Impossible to tell, but I would say, in lieu of other problems, the chances are greater that she would.

Second scenario, there are "other" issues, but the couple is still together, nothing insurmountable as a rule, just that they are having typical issues as most couples do. Would she accept the husband's cding? Impossible to tell, but clearly with other issues, it would seem more unlikely.

Still, it seems that MOST wives don't fully accept cding, particularly with THEIR husbands. My wife always said it was no big deal if other people CDed, but not HER husband. So, the chances that ones wife would accept ones cding are slim under the best of circumstances. To have additional problems already in the marriage, would make it even more difficult.

It might be interesting to have a thread asking CDers whose wife is unaccepting, if there were other main issues between them, when they came out.