For Those Contemplating Full Time Femme

[pamela_a]

Thank you for asking this question Melissa. As others have posted, except for a few details you could be talking about me. I've finally reached the point where I need more answers than I can provide for myself and have an appointment with a gender therapist soon. Take heart, you are not alone.

-Paula-

[Genifer Teal]

Interesting thoughts Melissa. I have often said about myself that I'd rather be a woman but don't have to be. Transitioning is not an easy path to take. I am managing well the way things are now. I wish I didn't have to hide my femme side on occasion, but I can deal with it. For the foreseeable future, nothing will changes here.

Gen

[ReineD]

I'm beginning to understand. You are not transsexual; you do not identify as a woman born inside the wrong body and you do not look at your male sexual organs as an aberration. You are happy with your male body and are at peace with your male hormones yet you embrace a feminine gender identification as well. Both. A simultaneous combination.

Maybe we should come up with an entirely new TG classification for transpeople who feel the way you do but who do not identify with any of the TS classifications:

AG = ambigendered.
Ambi-, amb-, ambo- + = Latin: both, on both sides. http://wordinfo.info/

As opposed to being bigendered: "a tendency to move between feminine and masculine genders respectively". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigender

[Kate Simmons]

Understood for needing some kind of definition as a baseline Reine but sometimes definitions(and parameters) do not apply to individuals so much. For instance, I told Melissa that is who I thought of her as, Melissa, with no label or definition necessary. The same with you, Reine. Both of you are my friends, both unique individuals who I care about. I dunno maybe I'm somewhat weird to think like that but that's the way it is.

[Raquel June]

If you throw out those for whom it is purely a sexual fetish, M2Fs try too hard to fit into one of two categories:

- "just a CD" who doesn't actually want to be a woman

or

- a hardcore TS who is very angry at her boy parts and resents every masculine trait


I'm a TS who is less femme than a lot of CDs. The fact that many people go from thinking they're CD to thinking they're TS shows that it's a spectrum, not binary.

[KateC]

Very true, I used to think like this before I thought more about it. It can't be binary, too narrow for that.

If I were to categorize myself at this point in stage and give me a label...

bi-transgendered-ambisexual-crossdressing-male-woman girl

I feel that I want to be a female but don't NEED to be one 24/7 nor to have hormones/SRS, still enjoy being a guy for the positives but prefer to be female at other times. Enjoy socially both male and female for different parts though want to be in female mode more. In guy mode I'm attractive to woman alot, and in girl mode, attracted to men and women. Still enjoy to have sex as a male but also wouldn't mind as a female if given a chance.

If you throw out those for whom it is purely a sexual fetish, M2Fs try too hard to fit into one of two categories:

- "just a CD" who doesn't actually want to be a woman

or

- a hardcore TS who is very angry at her boy parts and resents every masculine trait


I'm a TS who is less femme than a lot of CDs. The fact that many people go from thinking they're CD to thinking they're TS shows that it's a spectrum, not binary.

[ReineD]

Understood for needing some kind of definition as a baseline Reine but sometimes definitions(and parameters) do not apply to individuals so much. For instance, I told Melissa that is who I thought of her as, Melissa, with no label or definition necessary. The same with you, Reine. Both of you are my friends, both unique individuals who I care about. I dunno maybe I'm somewhat weird to think like that but that's the way it is.

Point well taken, Arianna! For those who cannot or do not wish to label themselves with a simple definition, please ignore my previous post.

But for me and for others like me, a concept defined with words is the only way I can even come close to describing, thus developing my understanding of being trans.

[melissacd]

I really appreciate all of the responses. It has given me great insight. This has helped me sort out some of the ambiguities in my mind that have been holding me back and I realize that I am not a label, I am just me, in whatever shape that happens to take. Sometimes, in struggling with what others want of you and trying to fit in to social constructs it is easy to lose sight of the fact that we have to be ourselves no matter what. By eliminating that uncertainty it becomes much easier to chart a course and make decisions.

Please keep the wonderful insights coming. Thank you all so much.

[vivianann]

I know I am late to posting on the subject, but here goes, I am one of those individuals who is happy with my male anatomy, however I identify as female, I do not want SRS or HRT. I want to live full time as female and I am heading in that direction in my life. I agree with ReineD about being happy about being male, but identifying or living full time as female, I consider myself as transgendered since other labels do not seem to fit me, there is a word that is out there that some of us use, and that is transgenerist for those who are male but identify and live as female.

[Rachel Morley]

Hi Melissa,

Your post "rings bells" for me too. I think I'm different to most of my CDing friends as I am pretty serious about my feminine expression and don't like to display any kind of masculine attitude or behaviour if I can help it. A feminine nature seems to come natural to me.

I also know I am different from my TS friends as I know I am not born in the wrong body. I am ok with the physiology of my male body providing it is somewhat femininzed (no body hair at all, facial hair removed by laser, manicured and painted hands and toenails, thin, shaped eyebrows etc).

I like and want to dress as often as I reasonably can .... but, for me, I don't want to go full time because that means coming out at work and I'm not ready for the consequences. I also feel that if I ever do wear guy clothes (like when I visit my parents or at work) they are always more of a unisex girl's type ones that aren't too obvious. I like my world to always be feminine to a greater or lesser extent. I think I'm more "down the road" than your average CDer but not as "full on" as a TS might be.

[Raquel June]

I also know I am different from my TS friends as I know I am not born in the wrong body. I am ok with the physiology of my male body providing it is somewhat femininzed (no body hair at all, facial hair removed by laser, manicured and painted hands and toenails, thin, shaped eyebrows etc).

I like and want to dress as often as I reasonably can .... but, for me, I don't want to go full time because that means coming out at work and I'm not ready for the consequences.

But you're looking to feminize your body as much as possible and dress as much as possible, and it's not some kind of kinky thrill for you -- you actually prefer to be feminine.

I can't help but think you and Karren just don't want to transition because of work/family issues. Can you honesty say you wouldn't be transitioning if it weren't for things like work holding you back?

I'm not trying to sound accusatory. I guess what it comes down to is that I don't quite understand CDs who aren't doing it for fetish reasons.

[Rachel Morley]

But you're looking to feminize your body as much as possible and dress as much as possible, and it's not some kind of kinky thrill for you -- you actually prefer to be feminine.

I can't help but think you and Karren just don't want to transition because of work/family issues. Can you honesty say you wouldn't be transitioning if it weren't for things like work holding you back?

I'm not trying to sound accusatory. I guess what it comes down to is that I don't quite understand CDs who aren't doing it for fetish reasons.

Well, not to be nit-picky but I didn't day I wanted to feminize my body or dress "as much as possible". I said I wanted to feminize by body "somewhat" and dress "as often as I reasonably can" ... but to answer your question. Yes, for me I don't think of it as a fetish at all and it is a serious part of my life and presentation. Can I honestly say I wouldn't transitioning if it wasn't for things things like work holding me back?

I think (in this scenario) if I use the term "transition" as meaning to live full time and not as being on hormones and having SRS, then yes you do actually have a point. If I didn't have to work and/or if my work was not in the area it is (say I was a freelance something or other and working from home) then I might consider living full time. I am ok with my body and I wouldn't want to have surgery as there are certain parts of it that both me and my wife like "using". Also, I know I would probably lose my wife I did have real breasts and no male parts as she is not attracted to women in a sexual way. You don't quite understand CDs who aren't doing it for fetish reasons? .... wow, that's quite a lot of folks on this board isn't it? .... or so I'm lead to believe.

[Raquel June]

I don't know ... I guess that didn't come out right. I just think there are crossdressers who do it for sexual gratification and then maybe everybody else is just transgendered in their own way and maybe more similar than they want to admit. I'm pretty sure that if I had gotten married I would be trying to tell myself I was the same as most married CDs.

[kellycan27]

I guess Iam in the hard core group, But i don't hate my "boy parts", haven't any use for them as I identify as a hetrosexual femaleand I know I won't miss them, but i don't hate them. As for my masculine traits... Not too many that I can think of.. hence my being who and what I am.
I believe I was more confused than angry,suicidally confused (if that's even a word)

[Raquel June]

I believe I was more confused than angry,suicidally confused (if that's even a word)

It's a word ... and in dictionaries published after 1995 it has my picture next to it.

[KateC]

But here is a question though, for those who aren't fully TS (yeah labels...)

What if both men and women wore similar clothing and there's nothing "special" for women, like makeup or jewellery, skirts, dresses etc.

I wonder if the bulk of the CD or even some TS are doing this because of culture moreso, than actual female conversion. You know what I mean?

[Raquel June]

KateC -

Well, sure. You're essentially saying, "If there were no gender roles, would there be people who didn't want to adhere to the role of their birth gender?" Of course not. Crossdressing wouldn't exist.

[SuzanneS]

But here is a question though, for those who aren't fully TS (yeah labels...)

What if both men and women wore similar clothing and there's nothing "special" for women, like makeup or jewellery, skirts, dresses etc.

I wonder if the bulk of the CD or even some TS are doing this because of culture moreso, than actual female conversion. You know what I mean?

That would be an awful boring world....who would the boys show off for and who would us girls dress up for? If that was the case though, I am pretty sure that the way the human race is that we would at least find something else to occupy ourselves with.:2c:

Suzanne

[AshleyCD]

Well I guess you could call me a emale or omen, lol. Seriously under gender though they should just have a check box that says other. And for anything medical just ask on the paperwork do you have a penis/vagina, seriously!

Never been one to act hardcore male or female.

This is how I would change my body if it was really possible to live this way:

Awesome long hair
No body hair / facial hair
my own breasts (and not hiding them either way)

Not change my voice, I have a rather deep voice, so talking normally there is no way anyone would ever mistake me for a female even if the rest of me was more female then Paris Hilton, lol.

So looking outwordly as women, but when you hear me you know I clearly not one down below.

It was pretty funny startling people on Halloween, even friends were surprised. One women said a few times that she wondered who the hot female was, but then realizing and remembering oh ya that's my friend J.

So ya I want to be everything I am now, except for removal of body/facial hair and to have breast and I'm working on growing the long hair. And then I would just wear whatever I wanted that day. One can dream...

[Carin]

This is a really important topic. There is a lot more to it than labeling or pigeonholing. The lack of a recognized "in between" gender state causes strife and anguish both for individuals who feel lost there, and for those close to us who can only contemplate the extreme of the binary.

... Both. A simultaneous combination.

Maybe we should come up with an entirely new TG classification for transpeople who feel the way you do but who do not identify with any of the TS classifications:

AG = ambigendered.
Ambi-, amb-, ambo- + = Latin: both, on both sides. http://wordinfo.info/

As opposed to being bigendered: "a tendency to move between feminine and masculine genders respectively". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigender

Well conceived Reina! I like it

If you throw out those for whom it is purely a sexual fetish, M2Fs try too hard to fit into one of two categories:

- "just a CD" who doesn't actually want to be a woman
or
- a hardcore TS who is very angry at her boy parts and resents every masculine trait

IMHO there is too much pressure both within the community and externally to be one or the other.

Very true, I used to think like this before I thought more about it. It can't be binary, too narrow for that.

If I were to categorize myself at this point in stage and give me a label...

bi-transgendered-ambisexual-crossdressing-male-woman girl

You demonstrate well the challenge of having a discussion about IT, when we have to go to such lengths to say what IT is.

But you're looking to feminize your body as much as possible and dress as much as possible, and it's not some kind of kinky thrill for you -- you actually prefer to be feminine.

I can't help but think you and Karren just don't want to transition because of work/family issues. Can you honesty say you wouldn't be transitioning if it weren't for things like work holding you back?

Speaking for myself, YES. I can honestly say that I don't want to transition. Family issues are not in the way. I like my sexuality as it is, male. Gender is more complex than that. A Woman in a Mans body is well justified in wanting the exterior to match the interior. A feminine male is just as justified in keeping his original equipment.

I'm not trying to sound accusatory. I guess what it comes down to is that I don't quite understand CDs who aren't doing it for fetish reasons.

The concept of being ambigendered IS very difficult to understand, unless of course you are, in which case it makes perfect sense.

I don't know ... I guess that didn't come out right. I just think there are crossdressers who do it for sexual gratification and then maybe everybody else is just transgendered in their own way and maybe more similar than they want to admit. I'm pretty sure that if I had gotten married I would be trying to tell myself I was the same as most married CDs.

"Transgenderd" is too broad a term to satisfy a refined sense of identity. There are so many flavors, even overlapping. Without refinement the term itself does little to help understand what it really means to any individual situation. Of course many will not need such refinement, just being their selves is sufficient. This thread is not very relevant to them, and feel free to click "Next". But many within and external to the community need a clearer understanding of their situation. It is tough to spend thousands of dollars on therapy, or many all-nighters in discussion with ones SO and still not have the language with which to communicate.

But here is a question though, for those who aren't fully TS (yeah labels...)

What if both men and women wore similar clothing and there's nothing "special" for women, like makeup or jewellery, skirts, dresses etc.

I wonder if the bulk of the CD or even some TS are doing this because of culture moreso, than actual female conversion. You know what I mean?

There are many components to Gender. Gender Identity, Gender Expression and Gender Role to name a few. The "Gender Variance Model" is a good start in helping to understand this. For many, particularly those that are "deeper in the spectrum", it is not just about the clothes and jewelry (expression). There IS an innate sense of (feminine) Gender Identity that goes beyond skirts and nail polish.

Well I guess you could call me a emale or omen, lol. Seriously under gender though they should just have a check box that says other. And for anything medical just ask on the paperwork do you have a penis/vagina, seriously!

Never been one to act hardcore male or female.

This is how I would change my body if it was really possible to live this way:

Awesome long hair
No body hair / facial hair
my own breasts (and not hiding them either way)

Not change my voice, I have a rather deep voice, so talking normally there is no way anyone would ever mistake me for a female even if the rest of me was more female then Paris Hilton, lol.

So looking outwordly as women, but when you hear me you know I clearly not one down below.

It was pretty funny startling people on Halloween, even friends were surprised. One women said a few times that she wondered who the hot female was, but then realizing and remembering oh ya that's my friend J.

So ya I want to be everything I am now, except for removal of body/facial hair and to have breast and I'm working on growing the long hair. And then I would just wear whatever I wanted that day. One can dream...

Ashley provides another great example. I often wonder how many people push themselves or are pushed to full transition because of the difficulty in understanding the feminine male concept. Certainly the Psychiatric profession is guilty of pushing the issue. Kate Bornstein's book Gender Outlaw: On Men Women and the Rest of Us is good reading on this subject.

Sorry for the long post. I don't usually do these multiqoute responses, I don't like them much. But this issue is important in validating my own existance as "I am not a freak". It is important in providing a framework to help understand the scope of transgender as legistlation is considered and rejected by 'peeping tom in the ladies room" syndrome. It is important in giving transgendered people who are conflicted with their ambiguity a space to pause. Society at large is very far frum understanding these concepts. Transgender language has come from within the grass roots transgender community. Agenda driven Psychiatrists will try to push thier "understanding" as fact. It is on us to push reality.

Stepping down from my soap box now.

[Raquel June]

Now you're all getting silly. Having both male and female traits already has a term -- it's androgynous. Being both is androgynous, and switching back and forth is bigendered. Most of us are both of these to some degree unless we present as 100% female 100% of the time (or 100% male 100% of the time).

Speaking for myself, YES. I can honestly say that I don't want to transition. Family issues are not in the way.

...

The concept of being ambigendered IS very difficult to understand, unless of course you are, in which case it makes perfect sense.

I used to feel that way. I described myself as bigendered for awhile. Oddly enough, I act more male around older friends and in less accepting environments and more female around newer friends and more accepting environments. Saying I was bigendered described my behavior, but it was stretching the truth to say that was really where I wanted my life to be.

Although again, if I was married I think I would still be in a place similar to that trying to make life more compatible with my wife. We all want everything to fit, and we try to adapt.

[Altema]

Re: Melissacd 04-07-09

[Quote]:
It is a tough road we travel.

Anyway, to the point of the matter. I am very curious and I have asked in a variety of ways before without totally connecting with the answer that I seek, are there others out there that are contemplating going 100% full time dressing as a female or who are living that way now who are NOT planning on SRS or taking hormones or having any major surgical procedures. I am trying to see if there is a community of others out there like me who are happy with their male form and fully express as a female.

I am trying to see, based on my failed attempts at relationships where I have tried to gravitate towards my femme self, if I am travelling a road with others who can help provide me with some insights into the challenges that they face(d). I do not know if what I seek is an impossibility in a world that seems to define gender in such a binary way. I am pretty confident that I will continue down this road as it seems that I am compelled to do so, I am just curious to learn from others and in the end I may find that surgery and hormones may be the only path that leads me to a place where I can feel normal and happy.

Huggs
Melissa

Yes, Melissa, there are others like you - and I am one of them! Other than the problems with an ex, I connect and agree completely with you. I am now a woman full time, despite lack of HRT or surgery...and I can't imagine going back! I am so glad I finally found myself! You will be, too!

[Melissa A.]

Hi Melissa,

I've been there, sister. And yes, it is a tough confusing road at times. Especially, I think, for many of us born before a certain time, before accepting yourself, and coming out as something other than your born gender was alot less aceptable than it is now becoming. To both yourself internally, and out in the world. We carry with us a lifetime of prejudices, assumptions, trained behaviors and responses that are so difficult to overcome. I'm labeled as a "late onset" TS, but that term doesnt really do it for me. After all, I DID cry myself to sleep when I was 4, many times, because I wasn't a girl. The only thing that was "late" was coming to terms with me, and losing my fear of really looking at myself. I can blame my culture for that to some extent, which resulted in me chasing the "normal" life that was always just out of my reach, for one reason or another.

But the thing is, once we start down the road of self-acceptance, it doesnt always get easier. We're still a part of what we used to be, and a part of a larger culture....It takes time. Yeah, the spectrum is huge...and the gender binary our culture dumps on us isnt for everyone. And that's ok. I'm glad you see the difference between sex and gender. that is pretty important. But it doesnt mean you know the answer yet, when it comes to your sex. This takes some heavy lifting and thinking, and alot of fear to overcome. I was petrified when I first realised I may be TS. But for me, being a woman wasnt all about gender, I began to realise. It was about me, and who I really was inside. Not about the clothes I wore or who I find attractive. But boy, it took me a while to figure out what to me, is now obvious. I'm not saying it will be that way for you. There's room for all exppressions of gender and sexuality and your's may be more fluid, as you presently believe it to be. If you aren't seeing gender therapist, it probably is the best thing you can do for yourself. Then be prepared to work hard. This was a struggle for me. Maybe some will say, "but you went exactly where expected- you're transitioning". Maybe so. That's me. I discovered things I always suspected, but had buried for so long, I forgot they were there. It's just as possible you may be happy somewhere else in the spectrum. I have come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter where you end up. As long as you keep making your way there. Best of luck, sis. I've known you for a while and I've seen what you're capable of. I'm thinking about you, and rooting for you.

hugs,

Melissa

[Shauna marie]

I wish I could dress much more than I do as I just feel more comfortable and right. I don't want to change genders, womens clothes just feel right.