The Honesty Conundrum

[Lorileah]

II raised my children not to judge, they are open minded and very supportive of everyone... so I really do hope you were not referring to me!

It wasn't that long ago you made the claim that we as CD's were liars. Nothing to do with the children but more in reference to the OP that we should disclose all and be honest. When Batty said we should be totally open and honest you tell her to lie. It can't be both ways. You have explained before how you have raised your children to be open and tolerant. Exactly what age does this kick in? Batty would do it immediately you have a different time table.

If we could only make decisions on if we have done something, i.e. having children, diminishes the discussion by limiting input. You give your input on "dressing" yet I doubt you have ever been a M-F CD. The idea of this forum is to educate and support.

[curse within]

I think it's very important to come out to your wife g/f very early and just as important be honest in the CDing level as well with your intentions( how far you desire to take it).

If most CDers act in real life as they do here , you must have very understanding wives and or G/Fs.. A lot here talk the talk hey listen are you Gay? That is one of the first questions asked after they find out from most. Define Gay, is it someone who perfers a sexual relationships with the same gender? So in saying that for those who wish to be female how do you think that must make your S.O. feel after hideing such a secret?

Do you demand acceptance or do you perfer to earn it? Thats the question , a great start would be honesty right out of the gate in a relationship. So many come here and complain about how they get rejected in their everyday life and blame their CDing as the cause. So many hold such a chip on their shoulder from years of defending their actions and why? No it's not because of CDing its from the character that you built in your inner ego , how you have felt all these years of shame because you have done something considered unacceptable by most.

As we CDers get older our biggest regret was not accepting our lifestyle more openly , we have lived a life of lies and hurt the ones who loved us as we loved them. No it wasn't because of crossdressing it was because we were not honest. I am happy to say I was honest from the start with my wife and only she knew .

[Lorileah]

If most CDers act in real life as they do here , you must have very understanding wives and or G/Fs..

I think many SOs are a lot more understanding and caring than they get credit for here. Thousands of members and maybe a hundred complainers. Silent majority are either in a very loving (I didn't say totally accepting or even open) or so deep in hiding their SO's don't know.

As we CDers get older our biggest regret was not accepting our lifestyle more openly , we have lived a life of lies and hurt the ones who loved us as we loved them. No it wasn't because of crossdressing it was because we were not honest. I am happy to say I was honest from the start with my wife and only she knew .

Agree and part of younger CD's not coming out is the children. It would difficult for most to be "out" to the wife and not somehow be caught by the kids sometime. So we hide from everyone until that golden moment. Often it is empty nest syndrome. Who can blame a woman for freaking out when she thought that this would be the time for both of them and the husband says "guess what?".

My ancestors say "we grow too sonn old and too late smart." As it was for me, there was always tomorrow

[battybattybats]

I've not been saying some people aren't doing some things.

I'm discussing the right and the wrong of the situation. The oldest subject of all human study is philosophy especially moral and ethical reasoning which is what I'm using in this topic. One needn't be a murderer or victim of murder in order to state whether murder is wrong or not. One only needs to know what makes it wrong or not.

Besides, i'm not just discussing the right and wrong of a persons interactions with just their own children where subjective experience can both inform and deceive but the tight and wrong for the grandchildren, great grandchildren and everyone else carrying those genes.

However if there is to be subjective experience that can provide signs of error in my Ethical Reasoning please then provide it rather than just saying I'm wrong without being able to say why.

So why is what I said the wrong thing to do and not the right thing to do?

Why am i wrong about their being a Moral and Ethical obligation? (and yes some people do fullfill the obligation, I'm not saying no-one is! I'm simply saying that it seems to be there and if so needs to be considered and discussed!)

And I'm not preaching or dictatitng, I'm asking a question, considering it and forming an initial conclusion. By all means lets together examine this and see if other conclusions are possible and can stand up to scrutiny and remain valid at the end, and equally test my initial conclusion.

That's how Ethical Reasoning, the study of Right and Wrong, works.

No. the consequence of CDs being honest with their partners is they risk losing her if she cannot embrace the lifestyle.

If a partner should have a reason to expect that they should be free to stay with or dump a CD because they are a CD then why shouldn't a friend? Why should a parent, child, sibling or anyone else not have that same opportunity?

If there is a Causal Operative difference we need to identify it to make valid the two different courses of action.

Then and only then, can the CD and her new partner decide on their degree of comfort with regards to public education, of course depending their inclination to do so, where the CD sits along the gender spectrum and their current life circumstances.

Right and wrong don't depend on peoples inclinations. Only their choice amongst various options of varying degress of right and wrong do. That's important to consider. For example a CD does not have to take the risks a TS is forced to by their circumstances. But just because a CD has more power of choice it doesn't mean they have less of an obligation morally and ethically in the choice but more of one.

The choice of inaction, of not being out, has consequences every bit as real as the choice of action which the chooser is equally responsible for.

Hypotheticals are important to consider these issues seperately from their emotional baggage. So here's one.

A person sees an elderly man within arms reach of them stepping onto the road and distracted by their hat being blown off to their feet, as the man bends to pick it up a fast moving car is headed straight for them. The person has the time to reach forward and pull them back, at most risking their arm in the process but no more. If they choose not to act are they not responsible for the mans death?

No. I can't imagine any reason to disclose medical conditions, sexual practices, a history of physical or sexual abuse or incest to anyone other than a partner, unless someone wants to disclose this. It is not an obligation.

Where a mental illness effects behaviour for example? Autism and Aspergers and other medical conditions that effect behaviour? Stigmatised illnesses where only when people understand it will they stop discriminating aginst those who have it (I speak from personal experience with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome as one example of that one)...

Doesn't silence contribute to Transphobia and therfore contribute to Deaths by Suicide and Murder?

Why?

Because they have an obligation to their children and childrens children.

First they must be true to themselves and their own comfort levels. When an airplane is forced to land, the oxygen mask is always put on the adult first, so s/he can better help the child.

Good and valid point. Yes, they do. But the obligation to the child doesn't go away. a Parent needn't wait till they are breathing comfortably in that mask before starting to get the mask on their child.

This is pure conjecture. How do you know that parents are not doing all they can, even if it doesn't involve political activity?

I'm not discussing what they are or are not doing I'm discussing what is right and wrong to do, what the ethical obligations are. If a parent does not strive to change the world outside when they can contribute to it, if they only do what is comfortable for themselves then are they not being neglingent and harming their descendants? Note I said IF and I said small-way: "We each play a part in shaping the world however small, if we keep things quiet and private are we not betraying those children by negligently failing to act to make the world a little bit more pro-TG?"

Might it be preferable if they feel so inclined? Yes. Must they? No.

Thats not how right and wrong work. Every choice has consequences, and we do have obligations to the predictable consequences. If they do not and the result is their family loses a substantial amount of income, or other families do then they do bear some of the responsibility for that.

Everyone does what they can

No. Everyone does what they choose to. Some choose to do nothing, some a little, some a lot, some do only what's comfortable or on the odd occassion, some sacrifice a great deal of themselves for the sake of others and some choose to impede and hurt others, this is true in all things, all issues.

and they SHOULD NOT be made to feel remiss if they do not live up to the ideal.

Why? If the person chooses not to pull the man away from the cars deadly path should they not feel remiss? I'm not suggesting everyone should be a saint but choices, even of inaction, have consequences.

First, let's work on helping SOs to accept and support their partners' transness. THEN we can work on ways they can become active, according to their comfort zones. Not everyone is ready to be public about this. One baby step at a time.

Actually like step 4 in the overcoming internalised oppression becoming active helps develop acceptance. So while definately not the first step it may make many of the steps easier rather than waiting for total acceptance first.

Nor is everyone inclined to make this a priority in their busy lives. What if their spare time is taken up with fighting world hunger? Or campaigning for cancer research? Or the couple has a Down's Syndrome child?

Measuring priority is always difficult true. But people connected to TG have a responsibility because of their unique opportunity that those who don't knowingly know one do not. Just as parents of Down Syndrome children do. Mind you that Down's Syndrome child also may be carrying a TG gene...

You do agree that coming out may be done gradually then, even it it means going out publicly in the next town over? Or regularly attending a TG support group? Or telling selected people and not everyone at once?

Of course.

And it may take years to come out to all and sundry, perhaps after the children are grown or the CD is retired?

Yes. Especially depending on when the process truly starts. But the obligation to the children who may be carrying a genetic legacy of increased likelihood of being TG remains.

What about a CD's choice to not come out at all since she may not have a great need to do so?

They are the ones with the greater burden of choice on them. Those who need to come out have not made a choice but had it made for them by circumstance. The person free to choose has the most responsibility for their choice.

What if she is content living a large part of her life as a guy and her decision to live this way has nothing to do with ITP? It all boils down to personal choice.

Yes, and that choice has consequences and the more choice a person has the greater their responsibility for the consequences of their actions and inactions. A paranoid schizophrenic having a psychotic attack is less responsible for violence they committ than someone who chooses to comitt murder for insurance money.

You said in the subsequent post to this one that "One of the most basic principles of ethics and morals is you cannot judge others for not doing what you would not be willing to do yourself (it's part of the ethics of reciprocity)". What about not judging others for not sharing your conviction, or having vastly different life circumstances as you?

I'm not judging others. I'm exploring the nature of right and wrong in this matter. And not by a moral code, that's subjective, but by objective ethical principles.

This is a concern for all of us. But it is idealistic to believe that everyone is in the same measure to be proactive to the same degree.

I never said they were. But everyone carries an obligation, some far more than others in fact based upon the extent of the effects of their choice not the ease of it.

Because not everyone is prepared to risk losing their livelihood or potentially losing family members, friendships, etc.

Then, and this is crucial here, then that justifies CDs not telling their wives as they risk being outted by their wives and so risk losing all those things too as well as risking losing their wife, children etc.

But again, put it in context. If it is a matter of emotional or spiritual death to stay closeted, then by all means a CD and certainly a TS must live as their true gender and the rest of society will have to adjust.

Also the increased risk of suicide, domestic violence, emotional distance, drug abuse, risky sexual and non-sexual deferrance behaviours, depression and other mental illnesses all has effects on the family. Even if a person can stay closeted that choice has consequences on their family and relationship. The harm of these risks should be measured against the harm of adjusting to TG reality in each case.

And I am sure those who are so inclined already do what they can to further the cause. But, I wonder how many TSs never transition because their life circumstances would guarantee a loss of livelihood if they did? So how many feel forced to stay silent?

And we must consider that those who choose not to come out or who choose not to work for employment protections are making choices that have consequences to others including the TSs who have no choice.

I do not wish to begin a discussion on whether the chicken or the egg came first.

Thats easy to answer as many cultures were tg-accepting and transphobia imposed over them by force and coersion or scapegoating. But what is important right now is who has a choice that can undo what.

In principle, Batty, I do not think anyone would disagree that it is necessary to take proactive actions in order to increase public awareness and education.

But how many consider they should do it rather than 'others'?

I cannot speak for others, but I have an issue when I am told that I MUST behave a certain way and if I do not, then I am failing the TG community, the community as a whole, and all future generations of TGs.

I am simply stating logical conclusions, ones that challenge comfortable complacency and peoples current and past choices. If my conclusions are in error then lets assess them. If they are not then no matter how shocking and uncomfortable and clinical they remain true and coaxing a few on the borderline to do a little more might make people happier but it does an injustice to those in their comfortable complacency. Sometimes you have to be direct. A little pain now can prevent a lot more later.

Although I may not be willing to march, or take it upon myself to educate our local schools, I do feel I do my part by supporting my SO and going out frequently with her, as well as encouraging other TGs to express themselves more openly, to name a few.

And that's good and more should do it. Whether it's enough for your responsibilities or merely better than nothing is a long complex discussion requiring examining many circumstances.

I am involved in prolonged divorce proceedings right now and it would be disastrous at this point if my ex were to find out about my SO's CDing, both legally (even though Courts should not consider gender or sexuality when making decisions, Judges are not always impartial and personal bias can negatively affect their decisions) and in my ex's ability to manipulate my sons' attitudes towards their future relationship with my SO.

A valid reason of complications of the moment for being very careful about decisions in that regard. Of course individul circumstances complicate these issues. They don't change the responsibilities, just require weighing others with them. If you and your CD SO have biological children the gene issue comes into play. And there's still the chance your first child could be TG anyway.

Your present circumstances complicate matters, as many do, but don't remove your responsibilities, merely means you have to consider other issues with them and what is the most effective way to resolve them all or those with highest priority. None of my points exist in a vacuum. But we tend to pretend the TG issues have less weight and dismiss them compared to others. Only by considering their full implications and consequences can we genuinely compare obligations and priorities.

It would be best if rather than try to convince us of our moral and ethical obligations to stand up and speak out (and I do not believe anyone disagrees with you), you would simply keep it simple and post simple, concrete ways people may involve themselves, IF THEY WISH to do so. And let people decide for themselves.

By explaining the ethical obligations, the often ignored consequences, I am letting people decide for themselves from an informed position. Merely saying 'it'd be nice if you did the right thing please' does little with an entrenched complacency filled with deep unconcious biases and fears. People will glance up and say 'if only I could' and put their heads back under the comfortable blanket continuing to ignore the blood on their hands. Myself included. Directness and boldness and clarity are required to 'face the facts' when they are uncomfortable or involve hard decisions.

I have a particular understanding of the subject of ethical reasoning, so it's what I'm going to be able to bring to the discussion. I started studying the subject at age 3 (yes 3!) when I first attended publicly open university lectures on that subject and Metaphysics also and joined the discussion afterwards. I do also post the simple concrete ways people may involve themselves, but few will until they contemplate the parts of the subject they are ignoring or unaware of or haven't groked the full implications of.

The ENDA suggestion was good, but it was buried under so many lengthy posts, many links, and quotations, it was hard to isolate a very simple thing anyone can do to help. And I quote from: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=187035380507

It deserves a post of it's own. There is the one in the media section http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...d.php?t=108486
And perhaps the GG forum might find a discussion in there on ways GGs can help protect their families in small simple and powerful ways if they don't have one already?

Actually. You've got a really good point. There could be more discussion on ways loved ones can help on many matters that deserves it's own thread seperate from this one. I at least can start one in this section where everyone can contribute.

And Deedee Dupree, you have my intentions and attempted actions exactly right! That's indeed what I'm trying to do and Thanks for the compliments

[Huntress]

Very well said Deedee. Good onya, Batty. Intelligent discourse will prepare us for the rigors ahead. And, if someone does not like dis-course, they can wait till the salad course is served.
De Oppresso Liber,
Huntress

Although Batty can easily take care of this, I can't let it go...

Batty's several recent threads, including this one, indicate (to me) her motivations for posting interesting questions is done with the best intentions... for the common good.

IMO, among them are her desire to clarify and solidify her own thinking on complex issues and to present various ideas/"ideals" others can consider to evaluate/re-evaluate one's personal stance on a topic.

In general, what may be ideal and what is possible, practical or desirable for anyone in the real world is of course an individual call, but I believe if one has not thought through an issue completely, and only has a vague idea of what a clearly defined ideal/goal may be, an ethical "big picture" how can one honesty determine if one's personal level of activism/involvement/participation in it/anything, is all it could or should be? What's wrong with food for thought?

To restate: Batty often suggests "frames of reference" one can use in considering one's options and whether or not more can be done without detriment to one's immediate circumstances.

Unlike some of the "preachers" elsewhere on the forum with other favorite agendas that I find particularly tiresome, she has the ability to alter her POV if someone makes a good/logical/ethical case contrary to a conclusion she has made. When that occurs, she incorporates the new data into the equation quickly. She has never said that dealing with complex issues would be easy, comfortable or convenient...

I think she is too often misunderstood and wrongly accused with considerable unjustified animosity directed toward her. Who will deny that she is a good person, has considerable intellectual gifts and her motivations are honorable? Nobody is ever forced to agree with her. OTOH, if one disagrees, she asks for a clarification. That is a fair and reasonable request... negative emotional commentary is counterproductive.

I consider her presence here, her knowledge and advocacy to be a tremendous asset to the forum and the TG community at large, despite my having to wade through the mountain of data she has made available.

dd

[battybattybats]

I think it's very important to come out to your wife g/f very early and just as important be honest in the CDing level as well with your intentions( how far you desire to take it).

If most CDers act in real life as they do here , you must have very understanding wives and or G/Fs.. A lot here talk the talk hey listen are you Gay? That is one of the first questions asked after they find out from most. Define Gay, is it someone who perfers a sexual relationships with the same gender? So in saying that for those who wish to be female how do you think that must make your S.O. feel after hideing such a secret?

Do you demand acceptance or do you perfer to earn it? Thats the question , a great start would be honesty right out of the gate in a relationship. So many come here and complain about how they get rejected in their everyday life and blame their CDing as the cause. So many hold such a chip on their shoulder from years of defending their actions and why? No it's not because of CDing its from the character that you built in your inner ego , how you have felt all these years of shame because you have done something considered unacceptable by most.

As we CDers get older our biggest regret was not accepting our lifestyle more openly , we have lived a life of lies and hurt the ones who loved us as we loved them. No it wasn't because of crossdressing it was because we were not honest. I am happy to say I was honest from the start with my wife and only she knew .

You make good points. But the reality of both the CD and SO being raised in transphobia needs to be considered. That while the virtuous thing to do is for the CD to be honest and the SO totally accepting instantly neither of these things is always possible because we are human and subject to human frailties, including the unconcious influence of social pressures.

However not only do we have the power to change that now we know more, though it's hard for everyone and none of us should ignore that fact, but we have a responsibility not just to ourselves and our families and our TG descendants to do so but also a responsibility to those who will be raised in the same amount of transphobia we were unless we lessen it.

We who can know better and can act are responsible for the transphobia future CDs experience and we must weigh the personal cost, CDs and GGs too, with the cost of being responsible for what other CDs and their Partners will go through. Of course there is risk and cost tou ourselves, but we choose what harm will come to others by our inaction.

[Carin]

Batty's several recent threads, including this one, indicate (to me) her motivations for posting interesting questions is done with the best intentions... for the common good.
..........
I consider her presence here, her knowledge and advocacy to be a tremendous asset to the forum and the TG community at large, despite my having to wade through the mountain of data she has made available.

Thank you DeeDee. I totally agree with everything you said. There is a difference between intellectual discussion and preaching. I can read Batty's posts and respond if I care to, but for the most part, these posts are intelligent food for thought that I truly appreciate, as are the thoughtful and respectful responses, whether in agreement or disagreement.

[Tamara Croft]

It wasn't that long ago you made the claim that we as CD's were liars. Nothing to do with the children but more in reference to the OP that we should disclose all and be honest.

Exactly! so why are you even bringing this up? My thread was about lying to your SO, not your children, I never even mentioned children. I never told them they had to be honest either, I just wanted to know why they hid it. I would NEVER tell a person to come out to anyone unless that's what they wanted to do. And many people do not want to come out in their towns, they are quite happy to stay in the closet, without all their neighbours etc knowing... Just because people aren't shouting it from the roof tops, doesn't mean they aren't supportive.

When Batty said we should be totally open and honest you tell her to lie. It can't be both ways.

This is irrelevant, I never told anyone to be honest... I asked why they lie...

You have explained before how you have raised your children to be open and tolerant. Exactly what age does this kick in? Batty would do it immediately you have a different time table.

It kicks in when my partner says it kicks in, it's up to him when I tell them, not me, it's not my place. As for the rest, I raised them from birth to be tollerant of all, to be open minded, not to judge etc... like you're doing to me right now, judging the way I choose to tell my children, when it's NOT up to me to tell them about Tam is it! He already had his sister out him to her partner and it's caused them to become extremely distant, you think going via battys way is right then?

If we could only make decisions on if we have done something, i.e. having children, diminishes the discussion by limiting input. You give your input on "dressing" yet I doubt you have ever been a M-F CD. The idea of this forum is to educate and support.

Well duh, what a stupid thing to say, of course I'll never be a MTF CD, I'm a woman :rolleyes: But I live with a CD, I can give as much input as I possibly can, I ask him questions about it, maybe I should show him this thread, tell him that unless we're all shouting from the rooftops about living with TG's, we're not doing our bit... w/e...

I do not and never will support Battys idea of telling all, it's not my place and that means I'm not supportive, so be it :brolleyes:

[battybattybats]

This is irrelevant, I never told anyone to be honest... I asked why they lie...

But isn't lying to a child still lying? Not that I agreed that maintaining something as private even from an SO is lying. I think Lorileah is just suggesting that your comments seemed to go in one direction when about SOs and another children and that seems inconsistent without understanding why your view on each is different.

As for the rest, I raised them from birth to be tollerant of all, to be open minded, not to judge etc... like you're doing to me right now, judging the way I choose to tell my children, when it's NOT up to me to tell them about Tam is it!

I didn't think anyone was judging you, simply pointing out what looks like (but may not be) an inconsistency.

And much of my posts has been about the kind of inconsistency we can all suffer from without realising it. And that future generations of TGs are the ones who suffer the consequences good or bad of our choices making us all responsible for them.

Edit: Further on the subject of TG kids, which the evidence of genetic aspects suggests should be more common for CD parents than not, are the following two links this one http://www.bilerico.com/2009/06/my_t...s_daughter.php comes from the transwoman whose picture in the mixed-race exhibition shown at a school caused a recent controversy and this http://www.bilerico.com/2009/06/list...interviews.php involves an interview with the executive director of transyouth family allies

[Sheila]

Batty .................... You rerally need to get a life :D

[battybattybats]

Batty .................... You rerally need to get a life :D

What makes you think I don't have one?

[letsdance GG]

Why am i wrong about their being a Moral and Ethical obligation? (and yes some people do fullfill the obligation, I'm not saying no-one is! I'm simply saying that it seems to be there and if so needs to be considered and discussed.



.....I'm not judging others. I'm exploring the nature of right and wrong in this matter. And not by a moral code, that's subjective, but by objective ethical principles......

OK, first off you are wrong about there being moral and ethical principles by the simple fact YOU ARE judging others against what YOU believe to be true. What I believe to be true may not apply to someone else. Both of my children do indeed know about my ex husband being TG. How I treated that situation is not open to debate amongst anyone that feels they have the pulse on what it right and wrong. It is MY family and I don't feel the need to justify my actions to anyone.


How I interact with CD's, TG's and others isn't open for debate either. And I do have many I consider my family by the very nature of where we are as friends. All relationships require an open mind. Not one closed by the supposed failure of others to meet your expectations. NO ONE has the right to sit in judgment over others perceived actions. By doing so you are saying that you are right and they are wrong! How 'passe to be so judgmental:Angry3:

[LA CINDY LOVE]

Crossdressing can be very hard on a relationship when you come out to your SO, but to say that you need to honest and come out to all parents, children, siblings, cousins workmates and your job, can be very very risky.......and for what, what can you possible gain by all......but look what can you possible lose by all.

But to suggest that your SO should risk their families, their friendships and their jobs about being open that they are in a relationship with a CD.....is asking for to much.

We Cd's are very selfish it is alway about me me me and the need to express myself and self acceptance.............do we really think about anyone else needs.

As a parent it is so funny how those with out kids always seam to know what is best for or kids.


LA CINDY LOVE

[Lorileah]

.and for what, what can you possible gain by all......but look what can you possible lose by all.

But to suggest that your SO should risk their families, their friendships and their jobs about being open that they are in a relationship with a CD.....is asking for to much.

We Cd's are very selfish it is alway about me me me and the need to express myself and self acceptance.............do we really think about anyone else needs.

As a parent it is so funny how those with out kids always seam to know what is best for or kids.


LA CINDY LOVE

What can you gain? How about if everyone did it we would not have to whine about how bad life sucks in this forum? How about we could be treated like normal humans who are productive parts of society? The one thing that we would gain would be that the next paragraph of your post would be unneeded. Your spouse would not have to worry about any risk.

Here we go with the selfish thing again. Don't lump us all in that category. Many of us are very giving and benevolent. We contribute to society in many ways. And just for fun a lot of money is raised for charity by the drag shows and the Tri-ess groups. Why shouldn't we want acceptance? Are you saying we are "bad or ill" people? So that is now off the table, we are not anymore selfish than anyone else. :Angry3:

So every teacher who does not have children cannot possibly teach? Every Priest cannot council you. That argument is pretty leaky too. I know plenty of "parents" who have no clue how to raise a child. Giving birth is not a magic cure all.

[Tamara Croft]

So what exactly have you done Lorileah? Are you out to all your family, friends, work colleagues, neighbours etc etc?? Have you told everyone?

[letsdance GG]

So what I am reading here as that my being active in the GBLT community isn't enough for some?

I have to be sure I stand outside with a bullhorn and yell " Hey, look at me! I am the mother of a gay child and all my friends are Gays, Lesbians, Bi-Sexual and Transgendered ! I know more than any of you about what is right and wrong!!! Sit right down and let me preach to you from my spiritual hilltop" Are you kidding me?:Angry3:

[Sarah...]

Why is this stuff always so polarised? None of it is black and white. It never will be. There is room for those who wish to shout from the rooftops - they provide something important to any community. There is room for stealth transitioners - they also provide something important. There is room for academic argument. There is room for emotion-based discussion. All of this stuff provides the variety we need to get closer to the truth. So why does it seem to make so many of us so angry?

As for me, well, I don't shout it from the rooftops. I speak it fairly quietly from ground level. I have told my whole family and all my real friends and have done so with one message only - tell anyone else you think you need or want to tell. Or tell no-one if that's what you want to do. I don't mind. So that's about doubled those who know. I'll answer to any questions from any of those people. I'll stand up for my TG friends and all TG people. But I still won't shout it from the rooftops. Because it's not my style.

I do enjoy Batty's academic postings though.

Sarah...

[Jenny Brown]

Want to know what I really think? I think that's the biggest load of bullshit I've ever read, and I'm sick of reading your goddamn preaching bullshit.

[curse within]

You make good points. But the reality of both the CD and SO being raised in transphobia needs to be considered. That while the virtuous thing to do is for the CD to be honest and the SO totally accepting instantly neither of these things is always possible because we are human and subject to human frailties, including the unconcious influence of social pressures.

However not only do we have the power to change that now we know more, though it's hard for everyone and none of us should ignore that fact, but we have a responsibility not just to ourselves and our families and our TG descendants to do so but also a responsibility to those who will be raised in the same amount of transphobia we were unless we lessen it.

We who can know better and can act are responsible for the transphobia future CDs experience and we must weigh the personal cost, CDs and GGs too, with the cost of being responsible for what other CDs and their Partners will go through. Of course there is risk and cost tou ourselves, but we choose what harm will come to others by our inaction.

Good points to you also Batty, we must understand though. First we were all raised some what different,religous beliefs, moral beliefs are some examples. Taking Transphopia out of this for now and then combine these differances can sometimes be an uphill battle.

We all have our own goals and ophinions of how not only how we should live our lives but how others should ,look at the political agendas here lately . If you choose to live you life openly hats off to you that makes you a rare bred a leader not a follower . My self I tend to keep my life on the quiet side and let it go by less un noticed ,a leader in my own direction.

[ReineD]

Batty, we could go on with allegorical arguments for ever, but not one of the examples we use will perfectly illustrate or resolve the core issue. You will admit that each example either one of us and everyone else has used fits just one specific set of circumstances. We could all one-up each other with single purpose examples ad nauseam without resolving anything.

I propose we try to keep it simple and along fundamental lines so that we can move forward.

Your bottom line argument is, I believe, that if a CD has an obligation to tell his SO about the CDing, they both have a moral and ethical obligation to be honest with others, at least with their children, parents, siblings, and close friends, and preferably to the community at large including co-workers. And, they should do what they can in the TG community, the community at large, and politically to help fight for TG rights.

Further, if the CD and SO choose not to be honest with others and not to behave proactively, they fail themselves, their children, and future generations of TGs because they are contributing through their inaction, to the propagation of transphobia and internalized oppression, which we all recognize is a TG's death.

You are discussing the right thing to do. You would like to establish a "mission statement" if you will, in order to help guide future behavior among members of the TG community.

I for one agree with this. I also believe most others will agree as well. The right thing to do is to overcome our internalized transphobia so that we can help society rid itself of transphobia.

=================================

Since we all (for the most part I believe) agree on what is the right moral and ethical thing to do, we can stop focusing on this and move on to what each individual CAN do.

THIS is where there is disagreement. How much CAN a single individual or couple do? How much do their personal circumstances come into play in deciding what they can do, given all their different life circumstances and financial obligations to other family members? What is good enough, given that WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS with DIFFERENT LIFE CIRCUMSTANCES.

If we can focus on this part of the conversation, we will stop going around in circles.

Please, let's focus on specifics, as in, I can write to my State Rep. I can attend a TG support group tomorrow. I can come to this forum and try to help others overcome ITP. I can volunteer to go on a radio talk show in order to answer questions about myself and the TG world. I can begin to work on telling my daughter now. Or when she is old enough to understand. I can spend one evening per week with my husband dressed (since I have not done this before). I can ask the HR people at work whether there is a freedom of expression policy in the company. I can stop dictating to my husband whether he is allowed to CD or not, and if I cannot bear to see him in a dress, I will support his freedom to CD without me. Whatever.

But please, no more arguments about whether it is right or wrong to move forward. We all know it is right to support the CDing and to move forward. Now we must define how much moving forward is best for each one of us here and PLEASE STOP JUDGING each other for being on different points along the path, GIVEN ALL OUR INDIVIDUAL LIFE CIRCUMSTANCES!

[AmandaM]

Batty have you gone Batty? LOL! Seriously, this sort of debate belongs on a Metaphysical Forum. You can't ask people to sacrifice their lives for something they don't really understand themselves.

[Deedee Dupree]

I appreciate your most recent post on this thread... and I have deleted 90% of what I had intended to say, except for one thing.
__________________________________________


Wow, seems like there isn't enough tolerance and understanding to go around so everybody can have a say, without being abused.

>>"Want to know what I really think? I think that's the biggest load of bullshit I've ever read, and I'm sick of reading your goddamn preaching bullshit."<<

It wasn't so long ago that Tamara accused me of being rude to a new OP by my saying, "You should have stated that at the beginning. I am done responding to your threads".

After being called on it and considering it for a moment, I concluded that her assessment may be correct and I apologized to the OP for making an impulsive remark.

Batty doesn't use vituperate language like Tamara's quote above, to anyone...

Yet Tamara thinks it is OK for her to make crude offensive comments and get away with it. Tamara doesn't agree with Batty, that's OK, but that is no excuse for her to express herself the way she did. I think she owes Batty an apology. Their differences on the topic are beside the point.

dd

[ReineD]

Amanda, I don't think Batty is asking people to risk their lives.

I think she is trying to establish what is the right thing to do as a guide for the TG community to move forward as a whole. I'm sure everyone (and Batty?) will agree that we are all at different points along our paths. When you think of it, it is as great a battle for a non-supportive SO to agree to stretch to the point where she will support her husband's right to dress, as it is for someone who has never gone out dressed before to begin to go out, as it is for someone whose friends all know to now tell their children, as it is for someone whose entire family knows to begin taking steps about talking to his employers about freedom of expression in his workplace (if he works in a progressive environment).

IMO it is difficult to ask someone to go from step 1 to step 5 without first going through steps 2, 3, and 4. It would be unrealistic to expect a CD who has not even told his wife yet to volunteer hosting a TG Awareness Focus Group at the local community center.

But, everyone can write letters to government officials or join a TG Rights online group (anonymously if they must) to see what, if anything, they CAN do.

Isn't this better than not doing anything at all?

Edited to add:

I hope Tam won't mind me speaking on her behalf, but as she's likely sleeping right now (in the UK), I'll put in my :2c:

Deedee everyone has their own personalities and communication styles. And yes, people's buttons do get pushed. It has happened to me. The members who have participated in this thread know each other well and IMO each one can well take care of themselves. I did not see Batty shy away! In my own life, I say things to friends in a tone I would never say to a stranger, because I know it is safe to do. They know me.

This has been a particularly heated thread, but sometimes it takes an emotional thread like this to finally reach a meaningful middle ground. We are talking about a difficult topic that causes each one of us to look deep inside ourselves.

(And please forgive me again for speaking on your behalf) but Tam always supports the underdog. You need only search the forum to see this. The personalities in this particular thread are strong and when all is said and done, I do believe everyone will become friends again. At the least, they will respect each other's opinions.

[AmandaM]

My reference to risking lives was allegorical.

Batty's post has been viewed as an attack. Batty is saying she has the moral high-ground and we have all been found wanting unless we believe as she does. Therefore, Batty has laid the groundwork that her moral argument is superior just by her stating it. If this is true, it's the height of arrogance. I assume of course, that that is not what she meant. I'll leave it to her to clear the air.

[Pink Person]

I believe that most human behavior is nonmoral. It’s not right and it’s not wrong. The scope of morality isn’t (and shouldn’t be) as wide as some people want to make it. We should resist the temptation to moralize everything we do. No one conquers Satan in the bathroom or at the bowling alley. Moral crusaders generally want to rob everyone of their legitimate and essentially harmless freedoms under the false belief that nothing is exempt from the rule of their righteousness.

I like Batty. She has a big brain and makes good points. However, I don’t believe that gender expression is a moral activity and that it should be protected or promoted by moral obligations. It is a completely subjective type of behavior that is perfectly justified by self-sufficient personal authority. People who want to support the fair freedom of any type of gender expression should do so in the manner of their private choosing. It might be true that if everyone did more then more would get done, but no one is under any principal obligation to do more than they want to do to support gender freedom.