Why Do We Bother

[Bobbi Em]

To address Sheila's original question, I suspect that you "bother", because you know that this world needs kindness and compassion and understanding.

We will never have a Rosa Parks situation, where there's a point that everything changes...So we do what we can, the best that we can, in private & in public.

So many, many, huge THANKS to all the GG's for whatever support you have been able to offer.

Bobbi

[Sandra]

Well I just give up never thought I'd hear myself say that but the thread in the lounge has got to me.

No one is going to tell me that I should be doing more for the TG community :Angry3:

I do enough by being here with Nigella. Why should I go out and shout it to everyone? why don't those who want this go do it themselves? my answer they don't have the balls to do it and want someone to do it for them.

[Di]

If you feel offended by a member's point of view, should not your comments be contained to that specific thread? And how does a single member's viewpoint make all the GG members feel unwelcome? Is this member the spokesperson for all CDs?

This thread...(Sheilas) is about that thread I already posted in that one and I was posting in here as well.

You are very correct this person def is not a spokesperson for cd's. Point taken and thank you.

[cindym5_04]

To address a couple of things that have been posted:

1) I'd be PISSED if my wife ran around telling everyone that I crossdressed, unless I told her previously that it's okay. I have kept things as "secrets" about her that she and I know, but I don't go running around telling everyone. So, no, I don't think (after reading the "loved ones" post) that the SO should be going and telling everyone.

2) Has everyone had the same experiences in life? No. That's what makes us all different and why many of us have different reasons for why we dress. It's one thing to say "I've had these bad experiences", but another to question all of one group of people (GGs in this case). How often are we, as tv/ts/cd, thrown into a category- to which we then complain? Isn't that the same thing?

3) HONESTY and TRUST- two key words for what makes a strong relationship. If you have to keep things constantly hidden from your SO, aren't you dooming yourself? Personally, I feel as though it is truly unfair to whomever you're dating (with potential long-term relationship possibility) to keep something that is so important in your life, a secret from them. You're being COMPLETELY unfair to them. If you then tell them after you're married and they aren't accepting of it and want a divorce, the way I see it a) you have no right to complain, and b) if it's used against you in the reasoning of the divorce hearings- it's fully their right to. If the SO can't accept it, don't you think they have the right to say "I'm sorry, I can't be with him because he crossdresses. It's something that disturbs me greatly and I don't see him anymore as the man that I married". Sorry, if I piss some people off with that, but as I said- honesty makes relationships work. And seriously, if you haven't been in a relationship, then STFU about telling other people what to do in theirs.

4) As I said, I have a wonderful, loving, and supportive wife. I told her when we were friends- even before we started dating. Her only caveat about me dressing and us going out is something that we laugh about all the time. Her famous quote is "I don't mind us going out and I'll help you look good- but there's no way in hell I'm going to make you look better than me". :D Do you realize how special it feels to have someone that loves you and supports you and accepts you for who you are? My wife has helped me accept my own self for who I am. She's boosted my confidence in so many areas of my life. I can't express enough to her how special I feel being with her and how much I appreciate her. From my own experience, I felt bad about myself for so long, coming from a mother that told me that I'm a "freak, pervert, and in need of serious mental help" and that I would "never find anyone to love me, because NO woman wants a man that does THAT, because you are not a REAL man".

I'm just truly tired of hearing the selfish behavior of cd/tv/ts that just want everything to be "all about me". Seriously, maybe those that feel that way really need to take some time, look in the mirror, and get a grip on reality. Everything is not "all about you". Other people have priorities and responsibilities too. OUR actions, as with any other group or single person, DO come with consequences. That is a fact that can't be ignored.

How many times oh here do we hear on here "oh I want acceptance"? We have gg's that come on here and say "I respect and accept you". What then happens and why this thread got started- "umm okay but that's not enough". Seriously? WTF?? Real bright- ask for acceptance, then push people away or throw them under the bus for it. Completely brilliant. It just amazes me how people can be such f'ing dumbasses.

[TGMarla]

Random thoughts on this.

Look, my wife in not really supportive of all this. This doesn't make her a bad person. Not at all. It just means that she's not really down with my crossdressing. It is not her job to support me in this. Then again, she doesn't hammer me about it either. We have a mutual respect for each other, so we don't throw this in each other's faces.

Batty, who notably has not chimed in on this thread, is a person who's train-of-thought is often accompanied by some depth. She thinks a lot, and posesses quite an intellect. Her thought here is that since this forum pounds on the concept of early disclosure, is there not some kind of transitive relationship there that suggests that a CDs SO also then lend her support. I don't think it was really meant as a crack back on SOs, or to suggest that they don't do enough. Most SOs don't ask for this; it is more often thrust upon them. Many often ask why a CD does not disclose their odd little habit early on. Mostly it is because of fear of reprisal. Either the CD is villified for being a CD, or villified for not disclosing it. She (Batty) is merely suggesting that if a CD is expected to disclose early on, should there not be an implied expectation of acceptance. If the answer to this is no, then it's a pretty raw deal for the CD.....but then, no one ever said life was easy. When a woman enters into a relationship, more often than not, she's not expecting her man to entertain a habit of emulating women, and parade around in a dress and high heels (and boobs, and hair, and so on). She is not duty-bound to simply accept or support this behavior as though it doesn't matter.

I think Kimberly's post is right on. I don't think Batty's post was meant as a personal insult to anybody in particular. She is merely trying to stimulate intelligent conversation. I don't think that anyone should have taken it so personally. Obviously, some here took it badly, and were a bit incensed by the comments. My friends Di and DD are obviously not happy with some of the behavior displayed here on this forum, and that's too bad. Sheila, too, is also not very happy with some of the members here. This is unfortunate. But as the saying goes, one bad apple.....

As CDs, it is nigh on impossible for us to see things from the unsuspecting SO's point of view. In turn, she cannot see things from the CD's point of view, either. We think, "Hey, I do this, but it's really no big deal." But to the SO, it flies in the face of what she has been taught her whole life about the roles of men and women. And this is a hard thing to get her mind around. Very often, we grew up with this, so we have had a very long time to get used to it. She did not, and to have it thrust upon her is a very difficult thing.

Sorry to get all windy there.

Can't we all just get along?

[Anna the Dub]

No offence to Batty, but sometimes I do feel as if I am being judged and found wanting when I read some of her posts. Me, I will live my life however I want, answering only to the people I love and care for.

[cindym5_04]

No offence to Batty, but sometimes I do feel as if I am being judged and found wanting when I read some of her posts.

I agree...and no offense (qualifying statement), but I do feel a negative vibe more often than not. Just my opinion.

[Ricochet]

To all the GG's:

Like i said earlier i believe that the people who have expressed these sentiments are way in the minority. It would be a terrible loss for us to lose you!!!!!

I wholeheartedly agree.

[LA CINDY LOVE]

I have to agree with what was said in battybattybats quote.

Gender identity and expression is not a joke or a short term game. Its who the people in your life are. That shouldn't be hidden and kept behind closed doors. Only offering support thats hidden isn't offering support. It also sends a bad message to the transgendered person in the relationship that there really is somthing bad about them and that its something that will only be tolerated in secret.

Jobs come and go, friendships come and go. A persons human dignity should not be stripped away for convenience.

Miranda any support that we Cd's get is a gift, but to say that support is a joke because the SO/GG is not open to all........is very selfish of you, you have been dressing for 25yrs you just make the decision to go full time 5yrs ago and once you go full time you have no choice but to come out to all your parents, family, Friends, co-workers and your job.

But what this tells me is that you do NOT have a SO in you life.....you just have you.

Sheila I do understand what you are saying and why you feel that way, I have read many post were a CD who dose NOT have a SO in their live tells another CD who dose that their SO needs to be more supportive or is not supportive enough or is to controlling or needs to understand your needs more... and the one that gets me is if she dose not support your needs and what you are going through then you should leave.

I do feel that their are some Cd's who feel that SO/GG can never do enough......thier is always more they WANT them to do.

LA CINDY LOVE

[Miranda-E]

But what this tells me is that you do NOT have a SO in you life and if you do.....when do you plan on telling US all.

I was out from age 4, just only full time for 5 years.
Your wrong I do have an SO the same one for for well over a decade. I have mentioned I had an SO once before. If my SO wasn't supportive I wouldn't be with him. I just wouldn't settle for anyone who isn't supportive everywhere in my life. married, closed on our house with me dressed. Lots of people assume that they have to settle to be with someone, when all they have to do if go out and find someone worth being with.

thier is always more they WANT them to do.

again, what is this more?

[battybattybats]

Did I say an SO should out their partner against their partners will? No I did not. Did I say any of the GG's here were not doing enough? No I did not. Did I judge anyone here? No I did not.

I made a hypothesis argument based on sound ethical reasoning. Nothing more.

As for children... 50%+ attempted suicide rate for TG people comes up in several studies.. thats the highest I ever heard of for any group of people.

With the discovery of genes found more often in TSs and scientists predicting more will be found including amongst CDs that means that if so then combating transphobia is protecting your own children and not doing so is leaving them vulnerable to death.

But as I said, read the whole thread properly to see what I actually say.

And rather than emotive rhetoric I suggest people put their minds where their mouths are and demonstrate where what I said was Philosophically in error as a statement of Ethical Reasoning! Especially as the thread was to analyse such ideas, not to state they were so!

By all means find fault with the hypothesis I present in that thread if possible, it's why it was put there. No need for all the attacks though. Especially if what i actually said, understood in full context, cannot be shown to be incorrect!

When Batty or any other TG steps outside the door openly & fully upfront as TG ( & I mean openly), maybe justy maybe he has earned the right to advise others until than no he does not

Like I did when I went fully femme to the womens comedy festival, when I walked from my house to a friends party in front of all my neughbours and where I knew only one other person, when I went to another party where most were strangers that lasted for two days fully femme, when I said "I am transgender" to the group of local people gathered to discuss the pros and cons of a charter of rights who I raised TG rights issues with, when afterwards, still wearing lipstick and with red painted nails and a womens coat on I went shopping at the supermarket, not for the first time or the last... when everyone who knows me knows I'm gender-non-conforming which is specifically part of the Transgender Umbrella and when most of those know I'm specifically a cross-dresser!

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Okay, to chime in once again. I happen to like Batty and a lot of the things she says. Many of her posts make me think about things more deeply than I normally might. That doesn't mean I agree with everything she says, just as I don't always agree with a lot of the things that get posted. And Goddess knows, I'm sure nearly everything I post has someone who disagrees vehemently with it, though for the life of me, I really can't understand why.

With that said, just because someone says something, as others have pointed out, that seems over the top or just plain upsetting, it's not a reason to assume that the majority of members here agree with it. And even if they do, majorities have been wrong in the past in all sorts of situations. Lots of people used to think the earth was flat, a minority knew it wasn't and of course they, the minority, were correct.

Please, to all of you natal female types who want to throw your hands up in disgust and just leave, please don't. We need you, who else would we look up to as models of civilized and decent and tolerant behavior. Like I said, I like Batty, but she doesn't speak for us all, nor do I think that she thinks she does. (Did that make sense?) Okay? Please?

Hugs...Joni Mari

[battybattybats]

Okay, to chime in once again. I happen to like Batty and a lot of the things she says. Many of her posts make me think about things more deeply than I normally might. That doesn't mean I agree with everything she says, just as I don't always agree with a lot of the things that get posted.

Heck this was an IF/THEN exploration of an idea about honesty and possible double-standards.. in other words its only true if the if is true, rather than my opinion its a logical conclusion and that only if the IF and the causal reasoning is correct is it true.

If people don't like implications of it, especially ones I never stated or implied myself, then attacking me is just shooting the messanger. The hypothesis is either right or wrong. It's not MY opinion, it's the conclusion of a line of reasoning. If it's wrong I'm not wrong, just it!

Ad Hominems do not effect it's truth or untruth. And I'm not even saying it's true, just that I'm waiting for any argument that invalidates it!

[Sonia Greene]

Sheila......as a dresser I appreciate SO VERY much any GG who can bear with us, be nice over it, rather than giving ultimatums.
I am single today, so no-one tells me how to behave.

But in the course of meeting women (GGs) as I do, (either in drab or dressed), who is understanding and pleasant--as opposed to critical, I would happily do anything for them, by way of thanks!
I find that Women (GGs) are invariably nice in situations outside.

It's often a lonely path to be courageous enough to take trouble to look presentable, then go out into the street of a town or city, which is not realised by many of the people who would criticise us......

I hope you understand my heartfelt appreciate comments.

Sonia

[Deb The Brunette]

It boils down to this ...no matter what I/we do, I/we can't please all of the people all of the time .. so I tend to give up trying these days :2c:




.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Hi Bats-

I was going to send this as a personal communication, but then decided to just go ahead and post it on the forum. First of all, I don't think anyone disagrees with your formal argumentation, an "if" hypothesis or proposition followed by a "then" conclusion. Your basic if A, then B argument. Of course the heat that follows is from the fact that what we're discussing, being TG/TS/CD, is an issue with such deep seated emotional and personal aspects that factors into it, that it's nearly impossible to discuss it in a "logical" manner.

Yes, perhaps it might be nice if we could (which is not to say it's not possible), but for all of us, especially for our spouses it touches on such deep and personal wells of love and acceptance and commitment that it's nearly impossible to keep emotion out of it. That, to me, at least, is why there has been so much deep and truly felt exception to what you may have felt was merely an idea tossed out simply for consideration. And, yes, I do agree, ad hominem arguments, attacks against you as a person, were wrong. Personally, as I have said before, I kind of like you and the way you think and certainly don't think you don't appreciate all the things the g-girls who are here on this site do for all of us.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[battybattybats]

Hi Bats-

I was going to send this as a personal communication, but then decided to just go ahead and post it on the forum. First of all, I don't think anyone disagrees with your formal argumentation, an "if" hypothesis or proposition followed by a "then" conclusion. Your basic if A, then B argument. Of course the heat that follows is from the fact that what we're discussing, being TG/TS/CD, is an issue with such deep seated emotional and personal aspects that factors into it, that it's nearly impossible to discuss it in a "logical" manner.

Yes, perhaps it might be nice if we could (which is not to say it's not possible), but for all of us, especially for our spouses it touches on such deep and personal wells of love and acceptance and commitment that it's nearly impossible to keep emotion out of it. That, to me, at least, is why there has been so much deep and truly felt exception to what you may have felt was merely an idea tossed out simply for consideration. And, yes, I do agree, ad hominem arguments, attacks against you as a person, were wrong. Personally, as I have said before, I kind of like you and the way you think and certainly don't think you don't appreciate all the things the g-girls who are here on this site do for all of us.

Hugs...Joni Mari

I certainly agree that many GGs here and elsewhere do a great deal for the community which I absolutely do appreciate. And I agree the emotion is important too. The need to protect children and family is a crucial emotion, thats why I made the thread on ways loved ones can help protect their families on TG issues as ReineD suggested http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...d.php?t=108592 and posted links to TYFA with their children-of-Trans-Parents group. And my actual thread mentions the obligations of a CD to their family in several posts, the genetic evidence effects their choices too after all. Emotions can be destructive too, like in internalised transphobia. But the more we understand about these issues the more we can ensure our emotions work for us personally, in relationships and as a community rather than in a harmful self-destruction.

[cindym5_04]

I think that one can always argue points of logic, scientific facts, hypotheses, and this and that study and say it's only this/that and if/then. Just like with compiling data and putting it into a computer and finding out the outcome, there's one point that's missing from all of it- the human factor. Studies, ethical logic (depending on which form of ethics you study and believe in), and other forms of data cannot, however, determine human emotion. The fact is, what was originally posted in the "loved ones" thread touched off human emotion. Whether it's taken "out of context" or not makes no difference- neither here nor there. The facts are- it DID. That's not a hypothesis, that's not something that's up for an ethical logic discussion. That's pure fact.

I honestly believe at this point, the thread needs to go ahead and be closed because I can see from here on out that there's going to be more bashing and people's blood boiling more and more over this. MOST of us agree that we do appreciate our SO's and the GGs that come into the forum. Everyone has a right to their own opinion. I don't feel, though, at the same time that waving around "my extensive studies in the field" and trying to throw an advanced education in front of anyone and make implications that we are not smart enough to discuss the matter helps at all.

Seriously. Enough is enough.

[Lorileah]

Damn I need to take a reading comprehension course. I don't get some of the points being made at all.

I get Sheila is hurt because she believes we don't appreciate her and the other GG's. I appreciate each and every one of the GG's who have the fortitude to post here and either support us or kick our butts. Here's my public apology if I made anyone think that. Mea Culpa. I didn't mean it ( I don't think but then I would have to read what I said to be sure). I have felt that same way (well not as a female but I try and see the female point of view) on other threads. Sometimes CD's make me very angry. I am a princess, I know it.

I get that Batty aggravates some people, but that s why there are mouse buttons, you don't have to read her posts. I enjoy arguing with and for Batty on many things. We agree to disagree frequently. I rarely read the "why does my wife hate me" threads but I do believe that if you are going to complain about being kept in the dark you have two options, turn on a light and get out or shut up. News flash, it isn't just the wife's fault! Look at things through her eyes once. Damn how many time do we need to post that?

Now as to all the other things posted here, I need more info because I must have missed something. As the saying goes, talk to me like I am 8 years old. Goes for this forum too.

[battybattybats]

I think that one can always argue points of logic, scientific facts, hypotheses, and this and that study and say it's only this/that and if/then. Just like with compiling data and putting it into a computer and finding out the outcome, there's one point that's missing from all of it- the human factor. Studies, ethical logic (depending on which form of ethics you study and believe in), and other forms of data cannot, however, determine human emotion.

I thought neurology did, with all those loveley FMRI scans. Like the ones proving TS brains are wired differently, or that Gay male brains have emotional reactions closer to straight female brains?

I honestly believe at this point, the thread needs to go ahead and be closed because I can see from here on out that there's going to be more bashing and people's blood boiling more and more over this.

But if we ignore important things because they make us uncomfortable we'll never progress, never make things better. Uncomfortable truths do need to be faced once in a while, and that applies to CDs GGs and all the rest.

MOST of us agree that we do appreciate our SO's and the GGs that come into the forum.

Of course.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion.

But not every opinion is equally true to the real world, just truly that persons opinion. A differing opinion wont make the world flat or the moon cheese.

I don't feel, though, at the same time that waving around "my extensive studies in the field" and trying to throw an advanced education in front of anyone and make implications that we are not smart enough to discuss the matter helps at all.

I did not say that. My points were not 'arguments from authority'. But theres been plenty of anti-intellectualism bandied around. I've taken more punches to the face from anti-intellectuals than I ever did from transphobes. It's a bigotry too. I'm also self-educated I should point out and spent my life below the poverty line and have friends who are learning-challnged who I respect a great deal.

Seriously. Enough is enough.

Your right. Something as vitally important as this kind of subject, no matter how discomforting it may be, should not be derailed by ad-hominem personal attacks, anti-intellectualism or double-standards.

That CDs often still hide their CDing from their wives is equally challenging, equally complex, equally emotive and my thread pales into insignificance with the niceness of my actual points specially compared to the genuinely judging and critical posts often associated with that subject.

So far no-one has said one thing against my actual argument. And while most of the statements have been against me for things I didn't say or even at all imply if my exploratory argument is valid no matter what then we may have to come to terms with whatever those implications that do come from it are no matter how unsettling.

[cindym5_04]

That CDs often still hide their CDing from their wives is equally challenging, equally complex, equally emotive

I absolutely agree with you on this. It goes back to what I was saying about honesty and relationships. I can't say it enough that I get SOOOOO tired of hearing complaints of "my wife is leaving me after x years of marriage because I told her I dress and she doesn't like it". To me, that would be comparable to someone going "oh and by the way, I know we've been married for 10 years, but I've been banging Mr. X for the past 15". It's pretty much the same thing- keeping secrets.

On the subject of neurology- while science can say the tg brain is wired closer to the female brain, science can't determine which emotional response itself will be triggered.

Side note: I come from a lower-wage-class also and just started college after being out of high school for 18 years. I can respect being self-taught. I've learned a lot by reading and from the people who I've surrounded myself with over the years.

[battybattybats]

I absolutely agree with you on this. It goes back to what I was saying about honesty and relationships. I can't say it enough that I get SOOOOO tired of hearing complaints of "my wife is leaving me after x years of marriage because I told her I dress and she doesn't like it". To me, that would be comparable to someone going "oh and by the way, I know we've been married for 10 years, but I've been banging Mr. X for the past 15". It's pretty much the same thing- keeping secrets.

Thats a lot of my point on the original thread. It's called the honesty conundrum.. the riddle, the problem with insisting on honesty in one case but not others.

On the subject of neurology- while science can say the tg brain is wired closer to the female brain, science can't determine which emotional response itself will be triggered.

Oh well you might like to keep an eye on the new FMRI scan reports, they are getting a lot better than I think you've heard... they really are getting to individual emotions and even some individual thoughts!

Side note: I come from a lower-wage-class also and just started college after being out of high school for 18 years. I can respect being self-taught. I've learned a lot by reading and from the people who I've surrounded myself with over the years.

Absolutely!

I'm no elitist nor callous monster. And when people start looking at what I actually said not what they feel i might have said i think many people, maybe most, possibly all, will find themselves agreeing with it. Though even I find aspects uncomfortable and will have to consider it in some of my own choices. Nor do I even have a firm opinion on it yet myself. Though I'm still waiting for a contrary point that sticks. Which means till i do i have to consider it as so.

[carhill2mn]

To all GGs, GWs, females-at-birth, etc., I would hope that any "T" girl that has a supportive SO on this site is appreciative of that person, as well as all of the other supportive SOs on this site. I know that I am.
I also realize that even the most supportive SO will have days where they wish "it would just go away". I am not one of those CDs fortunate enough to have had a supportive spouse so, I have great admiration for those SO that are able to "hang in there"!

[Sharon]

One comment -- intelligence does not equal smarts.

One more -- bullshit is bullshit and it matters not the words you use to describe it.

Okay, I'm not done yet, but I really hate people who prattle on and on and on as if the most words used equates winning a debate. Thus, I stop here..., almost.

However, unless you have created the thread, I would prefer that people just make their point and move on. There's no reason to continuously repeat yourselves.

[Rachaelb64]

I, speaking for myself, am glad for the support the GGs show us.

I'm not one these, 'Oh, woe is me you dont understand' types. I know it is hard & what it is like to have an unsupportive ex-wife, and yes I have made a lot of mistakes, not being honest to myself and those I love was the biggest one. One that I have corrected now.

So when someone offers a helping hand, I'll take it for good or bad.

So thank you for your support and the positive and negitive crictism, only that way do we learn and grow.

Rach x