Kicking at a dead horse

[t-girlxsophie]

If my minds not letting me down,was there not a case in US about a young lad at High School a few years back who wore a Kilt to the Prom,to show his Scottish heritage.And this act of self expression got him Expelled theres plenty of fashion kilts out there,camouflage,pink,leather etc that can be worn,If anyone is wary of going out in skirts,doesn't solve anything but might be an Idea

Sophie

[2SpeedTranny]

Well those last posts about successful wearings as males are encouraging.

Encouraging?

C'mon, dude.

San Francisco. Anything goes. You live there; I don't. Why are you jealous of me?

I don't know why, for certain, you reference the FAA. To the best of my knowledge, if you're aiming to be a pilot, they're looking only at your logbook. There's no "Transvestite Single Engine" endorsement. No "Wears Fake Boobs, Floatplane" signoff. If you got the skills, you got the skills. Period. Mechanic? An A&P is an A&P. I know this gig... my brother is one, and he's on the new Boeing 787 project.

Now then. There's a difference between what you do on weekends, and what you do during the week. I might not get my ass kicked, or have to kick ass, if I showed up to my workaday thing in the manner I dress on weekends. But it would be awkward.

Final analysis... I guess I'm not sure what you're really after here.

So... what?

[Sue101]

Pythos, I will only address this question. I think that I understand what you are asking. But in interpreting what you have stated and asked I have to take a somewhat opposing opinion. I believe that over the years whether recently or over a much longer period of time, the fact that women can wear pants has progressed from something outside the time frame's norms to an accepted and liked women's fashion style with all of its variations. Thus, in my opinion, it has nothing to do with crossdressing however you want to define it and the issues associated with MtF dressing. It is comparing apples and oranges. So, to be continually bringing up this incorrect comparison, is just like "kicking a dead horse".

Ok I will counter your counter. First lets get away from this notion that it is only pants that women have acquired. In reality every article from the hats on men's heads to the boots on men's feet have all been integrated into women's fashion. Even men's underwear is copied. This is not a question of fashion as it has been this way for decades and I have no doubt it is here to stay. So why does so much of women's wear mimic men's? Because women have to compete with men and be regarded as their equal and they cannot do this from the standpoint of femininity which is not considered the equal to masculinity.

Women have been encouraged to develop their own masculine qualities, and since we know people use clothes as a means to reflect how they feel about themselves, we would expect women to adopt men's styles and that is exactly what we see. Women are not crossdressing in clothes specifically designed to mimic men's to switch from feminine to masculine but instead from feminine to androgynous. This is still a form of crossdressing since women are using male clothing styles to change their gender presentation.

I think the above is great because the gender socialization we all incur in childhood tries to turn us into two distinct genders when in reality there is a huge overlap between men and women. By integrating masculine clothing women are getting back to their natural state, something I call whole-gendered. I wish that these parallels with what women do and what male crossdressers do were better understood because I think it brings crossdessers in from the cold. It highlights the artificial nature of our binary gender system and the natural instinct in people to throw off the unnatural shackles of distinct genders.

[Pythos]

I totally concur with this statement.

I think the above is great because the gender socialization we all incur in childhood tries to turn us into two distinct genders when in reality there is a huge overlap between men and women. By integrating masculine clothing women are getting back to their natural state, something I call whole-gendered. I wish that these parallels with what women do and what male crossdressers do were better understood because I think it brings crossdessers in from the cold. It highlights the artificial nature of our binary gender system and the natural instinct in people to throw off the unnatural shackles of distinct genders.

Let's also not be too one sided here.

Recall the stupid and idiotic nonsense Hillary went through for her wearing of pant suits during her run for President. I don't think one day went by I heard some talking head stating that her pantsuits work against her. What absolute nonsense.

But, there is a list of things women have indeed taken from the male aisle with little to no problems. Jeans, t-shirts, tennis shoes, combat boots, hiking boots, base ball caps, Boxer shorts, tank tops, ties,

Now, can someone please post what items from the women's aisle men have been able to appropriate? Aside from the possible leggings and skinny jeans I really cannot think of anything.

[Frédérique]

By integrating masculine clothing women are getting back to their natural state, something I call whole-gendered. I wish that these parallels with what women do and what male crossdressers do were better understood because I think it brings crossdessers in from the cold.

[SIZE="2"]What if I LIKE the cold? Seriously, the “natural state” you are referring to has a lot to do with innocence, or a time before a young male or female becomes aware of his or her responsibilities to society – maybe women are trying to get back to this whole-gendered state, as you say, but are they ditching overtly female characteristics for personal gain, either implied or real? In a similar vein, I can understand why a male would wish to return to the gender-incorporated state he emerged from, and seek a less masculine peace – however, with the emphasis on success and forward progress always prevalent in a phallocentric society, it would be very difficult for any male to “square” himself with this notion of retreat. Indeed, many males who crossdress don’t fully appreciate the paradise of gender blurredness they left far behind. Looking back with either a sense of longing or regret is, in itself, surrender, and males decry submission for the same reason women seek “equality,” i.e. the need to obtain and protect a dominant role…[/SIZE]

Recall the stupid and idiotic nonsense Hillary went through for her wearing of pant suits during her run for President. I don't think one day went by I heard some talking head stating that her pantsuits work against her. What absolute nonsense.
Now, can someone please post what items from the women's aisle men have been able to appropriate? Aside from the possible leggings and skinny jeans I really cannot think of anything.

[SIZE="2"]The statements about Hillary were political in nature, springing from the same conservative mindset that brought you gems like, “The French have no word for entrepreneur.”

As for clothing, I have been able to appropriate nearly everything from the women’s aisle AND wear it as a means of expression, but if I walk around crossdressed to the hilt in this part of the country I will need someone to follow me with a wheelbarrow, a pail, and a spatula. I’m Freddy, and that’s the way it IS…
[/SIZE]

[Jason+]

There is such an obvious difference between what most people think of cd'ing vs. men that would want to wear skirts "just because" that i believe it's you that is kicking the dead horse..

if you are truly just a guy that likes skirts as fashion, then wear them..outside of traditional crossdressing, very few guys want to wear skirts...i'm not sure what you are going on about.. do you think crossdressers somehow don't support men that just want to wear skirts?..

btw...my best friend doesnt tuck, doesnt wear breast forms but does completely dress and tries to blend in as a female..

Kaitlyn,

Your best friend blending as a female makes her not part of the group this thread is about. I disagree with you on the number of men who would want to wear skirts or dresses as men. A lot that would want to are not willing to suffer the consequences of it. They may find it easier to pass/blend/hide. Until they are willing to fight like women have already done to assert their rights things will not change.

Why bother trying to flog this horse then. We are not the community who "frown upon men wearing skirts". Why try preach the rights and wrongs here, the only way to get your message to those who "ridicule" this lawful act, are those in the real world. Stop berating the TG community and get out and show that men can wear skirts.

Nigella,

Speaking as a man who does wear skirts and dresses out in public as a man the most virulent opposition to men wearing skirts as men has not come from John Q. Public. They have provided stares and giggles and the occasional sarcastic comment but they do not hold a candle to the vocal and thankfully small minority of the TG community that I have experienced myself and watched as they tried to shred a new member who feels like I do as well as members who are long standing and more successful at pulling off the skirt as men look.

[Sue101]

I can understand why a male would wish to return to the gender-incorporated state he emerged from, and seek a less masculine peace – however, with the emphasis on success and forward progress always prevalent in a phallocentric society, it would be very difficult for any male to “square” himself with this notion of retreat.

I agree our male-centric culture makes it very difficult for any male to consider being whole-gendered. Even if he was not a crossdresser, he would still be perceived as being a lesser man and opportunities to succeed in work and in relationships would be reduced.

As much as we would desire it, the idea that our society would ever welcome feminine men is hard to perceive. For that to happen would require society to recognise femininity as being of equal value to masculinity. Even women have largely abandoned femininity to jump on ship with masculine values. Feminism says femininity promotes weakness and servitude. It is hard to see any reverse in these attitudes for the foreseeble future.

[Pythos]

Someone here said something I don't think people really see the full effect of.

"very few males want to wear skirts"

How do we know this is the case, or if when most men grow up they are bombarded with the idea that women are less than men, and skirts are for girls or sissies. I fortunately have seen women are not less than men, except in some very rare circumstances. But also, I do not associate most clothing with particular genders. I kinda get irritated when I read stuff like "Pantyhose are so feminine" Or "high heels make me feel all girle", and such things. I don't feel masculine when I am in jeans, I don't feel super girlie when in a skirt and hose. I just feel like me.

Unless I find one that I find matches me, you will not see me in one of those silly looking babydoll dresses. For me those styles do not put across a strong, or positive image of females. Personally I think the separation of the sexes in many many ways weakens the whole species known as human.

[Taylor186]

Well those last posts about successful wearings as males are encouraging.

And one more,

There is a forty-something, plain-looking, slightly over-weight man who attends my church dressed as a male from the waist up--man's shirt, man's watch, no ear rings or makeup or bra or other jewelry, traditional male haircut--and from the waist down is dressed as a female--black flowing ankle length skirt, woman's black flats and hosiery. His appearance is male in every way--other than his skirt, shoes and hose. The prototypical "man-in-a-dress."

This is in a small Midwest community in a red State and a bright red County.

He, as near as I can tell, is fully accepted by the other members, and during the post sermon social time is always involved in lively conversation with someone or some group.

So what I've seen tends to agree with what others have said above. If your goal is to present as a man with greater fashion freedom, then the only road block is yourself.

[AllieSF]

Pythos, I didn't use those exact words, but I did say that probably very few men (a small minority) want to wear skirts or dresses in male mode. I say that because I truly believe that when there are enough people wanting to do something out of the mainstream, some individuals will start doing that singularly and enough will be doing that by themselves that it will eventually become an obvious movement regardless what are the fashion styles and norms at that moment. I have seen over the years those rare moments when through the fashion world men will be shown wearing skirts. However, that has never caught on, not even to the mass of trend setters who do not care what others think. Why?

I am a late starter as a MtF CD and never had the desire to wear a skirt in private nor in public, and have never met anyone then and even up to now that wanted to wear a skirt in male mode, except for those I have seen on this site. And looking at the number here who like to wear a skirt in male mode, that is still a very small minority of the MtF CD members. So, as many have stated, including me, to each their own. You like goth, go for it. I like femme, I go for that. Someone likes frilly femme or baby doll look, go for it. What looks silly to you, may look fabulous to someone else. What looks right for you, may look wrong for someone else.

I also believe that having the separation of genders and sexes to be a natural, good and functioning system. By having two genders and all that goes with them, we get a balance which also can help to support a very large spectrum between both extremes, which adds to life's diversity and beauty, and strength. The differences compliment each other and on the big scale help make everything work. I definitely do not want to see the joining of the genders and sexes into one.

I also like the blurred lines where whoever wants to can cross over temporarily or permanently to the other side or somewhere in between. I agree that it is not totally accepted by society in general, but must reiterate that in my own personal experience, I have not encountered negative reaction to me being out there as Allie. I think that the more people that can overcome their own personal fears and can get out there in the real world will prove that my experience is not the exception, but rather the norm. Some might not like it that I and others like me are out there, but the vast majority do and will tolerate our right to be there.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Kaitlyn, you missed the point of my post entirely.

Did you not see I was not refering to the full on cding?

Did you not see how at least to me, men CANNOT openly wear skirts as men and not face ridicule, laughter and a trip to the house of pain.

Recall, this is one of my posts, and reading it thoroughly may be required do to my horrible grammar.

i understand what you are saying..sorry..

[Billie Jean]

If women want to wear pants and men dresses, I say let them. I know that everybody who has seen me in a dress is not OK with it but nobody has ever given me a hard time. I just get some looks and laughs both of which I don't let bother me. If more men wore dresses in public it would soon be something people would pay less attention to. Billie Jean

[DemonicDaughter]

Let's change this argument a bit here, shall we? See the focus seems to always be that because women were denied the right to wear pants that now that they do so, this is a form of crossdressing or what-have-you. The argument that skirts are not male attire is moot because it USE TO BE. Kilts, togas, etc. From Romans to Africans to Scots to Vikings they wore a type of dress/skirt. Just have a gander and fashion over the centuries.

So really the argument is "why isn't it fashionable anymore?" That's really what you are asking. Let me tell you why. Blame the cowboy. See, when America was discovered and began to populate, the trek to the untamed west was considerably harsh. The fashions of the original colonialist wasn't suitable and the birth of "jeans" or "dungarees" was the fastest excepted trend in the history of fashion! It became the ICON for the west and America. It became the symbol of "manliness" and being "macho". It told everyone who saw you that you were more powerful than the untamable west! (How's that for advertising?) Jeans were practical, inexpensive, suitable for all weather and activities.

So your question of why don't women, other men, society, etc. accept you in a skirt but are okay with women in pants, well that's easy. Because it's become commonplace. Just as it use to be common place for men to wear togas, or silk tights (did you know that Queen Elizabeth the First was the first woman to wear silk stockings? And it was considered absolutely scandalous!). It's also been common place for men to wear ruffled shirts and peacock feathers out of their collars, yet you don't argue about acceptance of that anymore. You only want to argue about the fashion that's "taboo" for you personally. But the answer is the same from one to the other. It's not commonplace anymore. For you to have your wish, start fashion trends wearing skirts and fight just as the women did to wear pants.

And I honestly don't know where you get this idea that there is no repercussion for attired based on a persons gender. Least of all from someone who is obviously a goth. As a goth myself, I'm INSTANTLY judged based on my appearance and yet here I am, a GG who can "wear whatever [I] want". Yeah right! Because if I wear a mini-shirt and a guy rapes me, I was really "asking for it" right? No assumptions there based on attire. Or if I dress like a "butch" and rapes me because "all a lesbian needs is a 'real man' to show her how much she likes it", again, it's not because I'm dressed "manly" right? Oh no, because in your little world that doesn't happen. Women can wear tutus on their head and no one bats an eye! Get over yourself. IF IT'S NOT MAINSTREAM IT'S NOT ACCEPTED. End. of. Discussion. Want to wear skirts, wear skirts. Hopefully one day it will be in style again but till then... you REALLY are beating a dead horse.

[TGMarla]

Kudos to you, DD. In many respects, you pegged it. But rather than blaming the American Cowboy, I think you can actually take it back to England in the beginnings of the Industrial Age. Check out John Stuart Mill, and the advent of Utilitarianism. We have him to thank for the awful sameness and boring-ness that prevails in men's fashions today. Thanks for nothing, JSM. You're not invited to any of my parties.

[DemonicDaughter]

Kudos to you, DD. In many respects, you pegged it. But rather than blaming the American Cowboy, I think you can actually take it back to England in the beginnings of the Industrial Age. Check out John Stuart Mill, and the advent of Utilitarianism. We have him to thank for the awful sameness and boring-ness that prevails in men's fashions today. Thanks for nothing, JSM. You're not invited to any of my parties.

This is true. It's just that the American Cowboy became a world wide symbol of masculinity at one point and truly changed the world's view of what men should dress like. But yes, it did start with JSM and you bet he got a lot of bitching from his wife that he dressed like a boring ol' bloke? LOL

[Marissa]

**Quote modified**

IF IT'S NOT MAINSTREAM IT'S NOT ACCEPTED. End. of. Discussion. Want to wear skirts, wear skirts. Hopefully one day it will be in style again but till then... you REALLY are beating a dead horse.

Well stated D.D...maybe some light will shine through to have some grasp the thought of what beating a dead horse is.

[AllieSF]

Actually, I would love to know the origins of that phrase. I always wonder if we use some of these old ones correctly. I know that many times I don't!

[Pythos]

I don't recall EVER saying that someone suffering due to their choice in attire was acceptable. In fact I come out against people ridiculing someone's style.

I am not for women losing the freedoms they have when it comes to clothing choices. I am only wanting and wishing for men to have that same freedom.

You do notice how a girl can get away with a Goth look far more than a boi? At least in main stream society.

I do not just preach, but I indeed practice. I almost daily wear unconventional styles to my job. (my computer one, not my flying one, though I would love to do that again). I have even gone skirted with eye makeup once, which was fun, but one customer frowned on it...no more for that, at least for a while. Now, would a girl or woman have faced that?

But don't think for a second that I don't fight. I think I fight too much, too much attention is given to what I wear by myself. I should just be able to put on what I would like to wear. But when I venture out in a skirted outfit (sorry I don't like being limited to kilts, or sarongs, or the other "accepted" male items, to me that is like telling a woman, you are restricted to only dress pants, and nothing else), I can't help but feel I may look a complete and total fool. Would I think that way if men were indeed able to wear skirts as everyday choice wear?

Women in many ways can get away with much more wimsical behavior (silly things on their head, eg cat ears.) that if a man were to do such he would be ridiculed, or beat up.

As far as ruffled shirts are concerned...I would love to wear mine...and do. There is no problem with wearing such in an unprofessional setting. Peacock feathers....never really thought of that, but if I wanted then I should be able to. Just as we should be able to be our goth selves.

On that note. Do you think a male version of Abby (in place of the queen of darkness, as in the original character was male from the get go of NCIS) would be as well recieved as Abby. I mean a male Goth or the old school style (not the modern goth male that too me is a tad too...mainstream), meaning dark clothes, androgynous look, and what not. I don't think so. I think that character would have been written out quite quickly. Maybe I am wrong though.

Allie SF. I too do not want to see a complete blurring of the sexes or genders. But I think those that exhibit qualities of both or some of the gender other than their birth gender or sex, should be able to freely express it, without harm, or having their lives badly effected by it.

[DemonicDaughter]

I don't recall EVER saying that someone suffering due to their choice in attire was acceptable. In fact I come out against people ridiculing someone's style.

I am not for women losing the freedoms they have when it comes to clothing choices. I am only wanting and wishing for men to have that same freedom.

You do notice how a girl can get away with a Goth look far more than a boi? At least in main stream society.

I do not just preach, but I indeed practice. I almost daily wear unconventional styles to my job. (my computer one, not my flying one, though I would love to do that again). I have even gone skirted with eye makeup once, which was fun, but one customer frowned on it...no more for that, at least for a while. Now, would a girl or woman have faced that?

But don't think for a second that I don't fight. I think I fight too much, too much attention is given to what I wear by myself. I should just be able to put on what I would like to wear. But when I venture out in a skirted outfit (sorry I don't like being limited to kilts, or sarongs, or the other "accepted" male items, to me that is like telling a woman, you are restricted to only dress pants, and nothing else), I can't help but feel I may look a complete and total fool. Would I think that way if men were indeed able to wear skirts as everyday choice wear?

Women in many ways can get away with much more wimsical behavior (silly things on their head, eg cat ears.) that if a man were to do such he would be ridiculed, or beat up.

As far as ruffled shirts are concerned...I would love to wear mine...and do. There is no problem with wearing such in an unprofessional setting. Peacock feathers....never really thought of that, but if I wanted then I should be able to. Just as we should be able to be our goth selves.

On that note. Do you think a male version of Abby (in place of the queen of darkness, as in the original character was male from the get go of NCIS) would be as well recieved as Abby. I mean a male Goth or the old school style (not the modern goth male that too me is a tad too...mainstream), meaning dark clothes, androgynous look, and what not. I don't think so. I think that character would have been written out quite quickly. Maybe I am wrong though.

Again, it all boils down to the same exact thing... what is in fashion at the time. Only two short decades ago in the '80s men were wearing poet shirts, neon colored shoes, ties, hats, vests, etc. The fashion of the '80s male was MUCH more whimsical than today. So AGAIN it boils down to... what is mainstream fashion at the time. This includes women. See not so long ago, a women showing her ankles would get arrested and was considered on a prostitute's level. So image the old Silver Screen with iconic beauties and perfectly coiffed dressed as today's woman! Why that scene would never see the light of day, the film would be shut down and so on and so forth. Because although it's accepted now, it wasn't then. Just like in the future, what we wear now will no longer be acceptable attire.

If you wish to argue the point of what PEOPLE are allowed to wear, you are better off not making a comparison from one gender to another as society has ALWAYS dictated that role. You are FAR better off arguing how today's average male doesn't strive to have the same fashion expression as they use to or that they are far too content NOT fighting, or something similar. It drives the point home much better.

[Rachel Morley]

I haven't read all the replies to this thread, but I just wanted to say that IMO the idea that men could/would wear a skirt (especially a long, to the floor, floaty black one) was something I thought would be the natural course of evolution when it comes to guys' fashions. Truthfully I do think this. Especially young guys in their 20's. To be honest, I am quite surprised we don't see more than the occasional dude on vacation in a sarong. Are people frightened of showing a little femininity in boy mode? or is there more to it than that?

[ReineD]

First, I do appreciate that you've started a separate thread for this, rather than engage in the philosophy of gender specific clothing in threads from new SOs in Loved Ones. Thank you.

Second, theoretically your point is valid. How could it not be? However, if you take some time to think about why in the history of humanity and in virtually all cultures, mankind has conspired to maintain gender specific clothing, you might get an answer. The psychology of it goes much deeper than you may think and it does go back thousands of years. You should go to a research library, look up a few papers with differing outlooks (there must be scads of research done on the topic already), and report your findings here.

Last, I think it was Kaz who mentioned going to a lot of fashion shows because her daughter is a designer, and she noticed that most of the designers have already or are now introducing man skirts to their lines. I can see them becoming increasingly more popular in some sections of society more than others, but I'll bet my bottom dollar that if ever these skirts do become part of the mainstream, people will still find ways to let the industry know they prefer the man skirts to look different and more masculine than the girl skirts. So, any guy wearing a girl skirt will still be seen as crossdressing.

In terms of describing gender specific clothing at various times, yes it's true that centuries ago in the nobility class for example, male clothing was much more elaborate and feminine looking compared to today's standards. But still, even then, the CDers of the time would not have wanted to dress like that and would have preferred wearing what the women were wearing then. It's all relative.

Generally speaking, boys want to look like boys and girls want to look like girls. I don't think it's any more complicated than that and this is why the notion of gender specific clothing has survived throughout time and across cultures.

[TxKimberly]

. . . Last, I think it was Kaz who mentioned going to a lot of fashion shows because her daughter is a designer, and she noticed that most of the designers have already or are now introducing man skirts to their lines. I can see them becoming increasingly more popular . . .

Honestly I have enormously mixed feelings at the idea. I dont think I would enjoy skirts and dresses half as much if they were considered normal male attire. Part of WHY I like them is the very fact that they are "feminine".

[ReineD]

Kim, I think most everyone here at cd.com would agree with you.

[Sue101]

So really the argument is "why isn't it fashionable anymore?

No thats not the argument at all. This is about gender perception not fashion. It does not matter to which sex certain clothes are attributed to, what matters is that clothes do have a known gender attribute and so they can be used to alter your gender presentation. The argument is why is it when women use clothes with male attributes, this is not considered crossdressing while the same is not true for men.

So your question of why don't women, other men, society, etc. accept you in a skirt but are okay with women in pants, well that's easy. Because it's become commonplace.

This narrow focus on just pants makes it easy to claim that it is just a practical choice. This argument ignores that the issue that ALL items of male clothing have been appropriated by women. If it were just jeans then nobody would ever suggest that this was crossdressing. But when women wear everything from army boots to boxer shorts to braces and baseball caps, it becomes obvious that women are deliberately choosing to integrate male clothing (whether actual or women's mimicing mens clothes) into their everyday appearance. This means something way beyond practicality or fashion, it means women are using clothes of the opposite sex to move away from femininity towards androgyny. That is what crossdressing is. The main difference compared to male crossdressers is to do with the much larger degree of the gender switch and the emotions and motivations underlining the choice.

[DonniDarkness]

Women were oppressed for many many years .....they did not have equal rights.....they were not even considered whole people before womens suffrage...and in many parts of the world they still are....

We all as crossdressers or non crossdressers should embrace their rights to express themselves as they see fit, be that in pants or skirts....it seems somewhat cliche to say they are wearing my pants..."why cant i wear a skirt"....when they had to fight for their rights to wear what they wanted and be respected for it. Seems like we should be thanking them for giving us the hope that society will eventually accept you for who you are.....it just takes time and persistence on your part as an individual.

Fret not....

-Donni-