Will someone please explain

[jillleanne]

For some, the fantasy of being a real woman or more accurately, " I wonder what it would feel like" with a man, even if that only includes walking in public with your arm on his portraying a genetic woman, does not make the person gay, bi or whatever, nor does it confuse them about themselves. . It is simply a part of the "I wonder what if" part of being gender enhanced. It is part of the question they are asking themselves about who they really are. They are reaching to the outer limits to see just how far, or conversely, how close they can come in their fantasy, to being a real woman and attempting to discover just how a real woman feels being with a man. In reality, if a genetic man ever approached them, they would be turned off totally, unless they truly are bi, gay, etc.

[KylieA]

Parts of this discussion reminds of Malvina Reynolds' song "Little Boxes":

Little boxes on the hillside,
Little boxes made of ticky tacky,1
Little boxes on the hillside,
Little boxes all the same.
There's a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one,
And they're all made out of ticky tacky
And they all look just the same.

And the people in the houses
All went to the university,
Where they were put in boxes
And they came out all the same,
And there's doctors and lawyers,
And business executives,
And they're all made out of ticky tacky
And they all look just the same.

And they all play on the golf course
And drink their martinis dry,
And they all have pretty children
And the children go to school,
And the children go to summer camp
And then to the university,
Where they are put in boxes
And they come out all the same.

And the boys go into business
And marry and raise a family
In boxes made of ticky tacky
And they all look just the same.
There's a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one,
And they're all made out of ticky tacky
And they all look just the same.

I find a lot of people like to construct new boxes for people. The boxes are even constructed in the LGBT and alternative communities.

-Kylie

[Badtranny]

Let's be clear on this. I am NOT trying to put people into little boxes. I'm trying to get them OUT of the boxes. The people I'm talking directly to are the ones who put themselves in the 'straight' box. Except their box is the 'straight except when' box. There is no EXCEPT, you're either straight or you're not. If you want to talk about fluidity that's fine, but 'straight' is very specific and very limiting.

Call yourself whatever you want, just know this; when you say you are totally straight, are not attracted to men at all, UNLESS some condition is being met, then you just look silly. Why not call yourself what you are, sexually adventurous, or fluid, or bi, or whatever. There is no such thing as 'straight except'. Why is this even an argument?

[moondog]

I'm partial to "sexually fluid" but it almost sounds like "sexual fluid" which, although nice, isn't what I'm thinking about, I guess I'd have to go with "sexually adventurous," which I am and have always been.

[Shananigans]

Yeaaaaaaah...I kind of get what Melissa is saying. I don't think you have to corner yourself into bisexuality if you are having fantasies about men while you are dressed as a woman.

In fact, being bisexual...I kind of DON'T want people like that in my "box", because it implies there is an on/off switch with sexuality. The gay community has been pretty adamant that this is NOT a choice and there is no on/off switch. I agree with the community on this point. In fact, people have only just started taking us seriously on this point. When it was seen as a choice that could be turned "off," we were all mentally ill and in need of therapy.

I'm sure a few transsexual people can relate to these modes of thinking.

But, I agree with Melissa that it would be kind of funny to say, "I am completely 100% straight...no d*ck for me...except those times when I am dressed as a woman and getting off on that thought."

I will stomp my feet all day and say this is not bisexuality because bisexuality cannot be turned off by a change in clothing presentation. People will agree to disagree.

I mean, I would just call you sexually freaky if you had these fantasies, but couldn't actually act on them. Hmmmm...I'd say this is true for a few of my fantasies. And, it's totally fine...usually what is going on in your head is a lot different than real life anyway.

If you do actually act on them and hate it...maybe you "tried out bi" and it wasn't your thing. So, maybe you fall more on towards being straight with kinky fantasies that just don't hold up in real life. There's a million people in the same shoes if my gay friend isn't pulling my leg. Would future straight partners understand your experimentation? I don't know. I'd probably find it questionable, but I don't have a track record to be judging you...some straight people have a track record that they could probably judge you pretty harshly. Life isn't fair...oh well.

If you "tried out bi" and liked it, but STILL maintain that you MUST be dressed as a woman to get off on guys....well...I'd say you are confused. That's just my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions...

[busker]

There is no such thing as 'straight except'. Why is this even an argument?

Because people always want a way out. A scapegoat of some sort or other. they don't want to be responsible for what they do and "except" provides the escape hatch.

[ReineD]

Thought I might post this. It's as good a definition as any:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial

[billie earls]

Debbie I think you read my mind with your statement. I wish I had this understanding back when I could do something about it and not stay in the closet.

[DeniseNJ]

Wow I didn't think this thread would create so much controversy. I read the post and quotes but it all boils down to individual decessions and desires.It is like asking a question is it right or wrong to crossdress, now that would be a interesting thread. I have a Friend who is Gay he is 56 years old, He has opened up about his taste in men.
He knows I dress and seen pics of me as Denise, I even let him take a few pics of me in heels which he said was neat. He is not at all interested in me either way and that is totally fine with me as he is one hairy beast and I am not attracted to the male image... He like OLD KOOKS as he puts it. He told me when he was in his
20's he lusted for Linden B Johnson VP of the USA back then. For the life of me I couldn't fathom why he lusted after that guy He is currently with a 80 year old man and been with him for the past 20 years. So it goes to show you life is not Black and White but a full aray of colors My O2 cent worth..

[Rianna Humble]

Well, perhaps you're confusing the fact that you may be attracted to CDs - but very few of them are going to be attracted to you. (as a man) It doesn't change the facts, as Reine is trying so hard to point out to you.

Proof. Where is your proof? Well, no surprise....you have none. You're living in some kind of fantasy world.

Hi Piora, the only problemwith trying to reason with this wannabee troll is that you make him believe that his trolling has been successful. If more of us placed him on permanent ignore, he might just realise that his ceaseless repetition of the same lies is not going to get him anywhere.

[Barbara Dugan]

Exactly. Men do not want the penis of a CD. Men are simply attracted to femininity and treating her like any other girl.

Some think like that...but I can tell you from personal experience that the vast majority of admirers are attracted to it...now that give me some trouble because I have mixed feelings about that part of my body, now I am ashamed to admit that sometimes I use it as bait to lure a good looking ''Straight'' acting guy

[Piora]

Hi Piora, the only problem with trying to reason with this wannabee troll is that you make him believe that his trolling has been successful. If more of us placed him on permanent ignore, he might just realize that his ceaseless repetition of the same lies is not going to get him anywhere.

Yes, I didn't realize that that was what he was doing until later on. I am not usually one to feed trolls, but did so in this case. You're right, of course.

[whowhatwhen]

now I am ashamed to admit that sometimes I use it as bait to lure a good looking ''Straight'' acting guy

No one put a gun to their head...

[Badtranny]

No one put a gun to their head...

No pun intended :-*

[Dee Baker]

being a CD'er is not One Size Fits All.

That is so true and its probably a good thing. Life would be booring if we were all the same.

I just wish we werent so misunderstood.

[NicoleScott]

We seem to be caught up once again in the word game. Let's kill the argument by getting the definitions right. One of the definitions of fantasy I found in a dictionary is "imagination unrestricted by reality". Another is "whimsy". Heterosexual (synonym: straight) describes an attraction for a person of the opposite sex. It may be fair to say that a M2F cd may not be straight if there's a desire for a sexual encounter with a man, but it's quite a leap to say that imagining an encounter is the same as desiring one, and disallowing a person who fantasizes about men but is not attracted to men the use of the label "straight".
Many cd's with absolutely no desire to have sex with a man still fantasize about a date with one, to be treated like a lady in fulfillment of a fantasy.
Have you ever contemplated rape, or murder? No, not desiring to do it, but thinking about what it would be like, or how others who do those things might think and feel, And then rejecting the thought as unacceptable behavior, which would be impossible without first contemplating it. It's unrestricted imagination, then discarded by introducing reality into it. That doesn't make you a rapist or murderer.
One post here tells of years of fantasizing about men, and denial, before finally figuring it out and accepting gayness. And then goes on to say that those who fantasize about men are similarly in denial and need to get a grip. You know: been there, done that, know all the excuses, had the fantasies and turned out gay, so if you have fantasies and claim to be straight, you're gay but in denial. All those years of confusion, and suddenly has everyone else figured out. C'mon man!
By definition, fantasies aren't real.

[Badtranny]

C'mon man!
By definition, fantasies aren't real.

Nicole, I agree with this. I don't think anyone is saying that fantasies mean anything by the way. Shoot I sometimes fantasize about being a kept woman. That sure as hell ain't real ;-)

[Dannie Lefae]

Wouldn't this question go to the core of , "what is straight?" ? I mean, I have had sexual relations with guys and girls, I am a cross-dresser who has been in a monogamous relationship for 18 years with my lovely wife and I now identify as straight because I relate sexual orientation to sexual behavior. I have not had sexual relations with anyone, male or female since making a commitment to my wife 18 years ago, therefore, to me, being in a straight relationship, that is my orientation. Some would argue that sexual orientation is the same as sexual identification. To this I would say the sexual psyche is different than the emotional psyche and when I feel like Dannie and not Dan I am connecting with my emotional psyche. Two different halves of the whole.
That's just how I see it. But when it comes right down to it, the only identification I need to understand and come to terms with are my own.

Peace,
D

[whowhatwhen]

No pun intended :-*

Well, I wouldn't have pegged this thread for such a thing...


(sorry)

[sometimes_miss]

SweetPea,

I think you're having difficulty because you're attempting to apply narrowly defined labels upon someone. Either you're gay or not. Either you're bi or not. If bi-curious works for you than stick with it. Some people cannot be labeled because professional psychologists have, so far, failed to come up with a new definition for what maybe considered a new sexual identification.

Rats. lost my whole post. I think labels are a big part of the problem. Let's remember that sexual orientation is rarely either completely heterosexual, or completely homosexual. Like a standard bell curve, the vast majority fall into the part which is mostly heterosexual, but you have individuals who are just to the side of that middle who are more homosexual or more heterosexual. The problem we run into most, is the huge stigma attached to homosexuality. Most men are completely unwilling to accept that they have homosexual desires; society has bred it into us to avoid anything feminine, ever. Male soldiers use feminine adjectives as insults to call each other. As we grow up, we are constantly told by other men (and it's a concept reinforced by women!), that being feminine in any way is the worst thing any man can be. So, we bury very deep any idea of it. Remove the stigma attached to homosexuality, and I think lots of crossdressers would indulge in a rare occasional gay 'fling' and that would be it.

[ReineD]

Like a standard bell curve, the vast majority fall into the part which is mostly heterosexual, but you have individuals who are just to the side of that middle who are more homosexual or more heterosexual.

I agree with you that the majority of people are hetero. But, I'm not so sure about the "mostly" hetero. This implies there is the possibility of same-sex attraction with most people?

The majority of people are not interested in same-sex attraction. I've heard said on this site (more than in other places) that this a social construct and if we were all raised in gay/bi communities, we would all be sexually flexible but I don't buy this at all. If this were true, our species would not propagate. :p A smaller percentage of people can go both ways, or are strictly same-sex attracted, but to say there is a large number of people who could be same-sex attracted under the right circumstances I think is wishful thinking, or a rationalization among members of the CDing community who do engage in same-sex fantasies strictly as the outcome of an intense need to feel feminine that is brought about by the CDing.

I'm not saying there aren't CDers who are gay or bi, just that I think for those who aren't, it's important to separate an autogynephilic fantasy from how a person would feel if he were actually naked in a room with another man.

[seanmuscle]

I agree with you that the majority of people are hetero. But, I'm not so sure about the "mostly" hetero. This implies there is the possibility of same-sex attraction with most people?

The majority of people are not interested in same-sex attraction. I've heard said on this site (more than in other places) that this a social construct and if we were all raised in gay/bi communities, we would all be sexually flexible but I don't buy this at all. If this were true, our species would not propagate. :p A smaller percentage of people can go both ways, or are strictly same-sex attracted, but to say there is a large number of people who could be same-sex attracted under the right circumstances I think is wishful thinking, or a rationalization among members of the CDing community who do engage in same-sex fantasies strictly as the outcome of an intense need to feel feminine that is brought about by the CDing.

I'm not saying there aren't CDers who are gay or bi, just that I think for those who aren't, it's important to separate an autogynephilic fantasy from how a person would feel if he were actually naked in a room with another man.

Renne. What about men who have genetic defect and born with no penis or testes. does that make him a woman? They need artificial injections of testosterone to look like a man. And what about post op transexual who have a vagina? Your definitions are no good for this.

A persons gender is female brain or male brain. Not their private parts.

[ReineD]

Renne. What about men who have genetic defect and born with no penis or testes. does that make him a woman? They need artificial injections of testosterone to look like a man. And what about post op transexual who have a vagina? Your definitions are no good for this.

A persons gender is female brain or male brain. Not their private parts.

Please read my post. I'm describing same-sex vs. opposite-sex attraction in the general population. I'm describing a normal distribution and not the extremes. If you compare the segment of the population who are TS or Intersex (is this what you mean by men born with no penises or testes?) to the whole, you'll see that it is very small.

However, if you want to make the case that a transsexual is a woman even before SRS, that's fine. I agree with you. She will not be interested in presenting as a man, ever. She also will not like to use her penis. And, she represents a very small segment of all the people who fit under the transgender umbrella. There are a great deal more CDs than there are TSs.

Would you be interested in a transsexual after she's had SRS? Most admirer's aren't, if you take the time to read the accounts in our transsexual section. Post-op TSs get dropped like hot potatoes. Apparently. And on a more personal note, if you're interested in women, why are you on a site filled with male-identified CDs, and even then, why aren't you posting your advances in the TS section where the members do identify as women and at least some of them are post-op?

[JulieK1980]

A persons gender is female brain or male brain. Not their private parts.

There is a difference between biologic gender and physical gender however, it isn't quite as black and white as you'd like.

[Badtranny]

What about men who have genetic defect and born with no penis or testes. does that make him a woman?

Hmmmmm time for a lesson in "the exception proves the rule".

I would agree that a penis or vagina doesn't necessarily indicate a male or female identity. I'd like to see some bigot tell Buck Angel to his face that he's not a man, though he has indeed retained his vagina for whatever reason.

But TS and Intersex people are the EXCEPTION to the norm. Their percentages are extremely tiny when compared to the whole of the population. How do we know they are an exception? Well, if you don't know what we would call a person born with none or ambiguous sex organs, (I don't either) let's start with an easier one. What would you call someone born with a penis? They are an infant so you don't know a thing about how they identify. All you know is they are a perfectly formed ...what? You only have two choices.

Now lets say this person grows up to be one of the extremely few people who's internal gender markers don't match their external ones. Then what would you call them? they would be a trans ...what? I know we like to pretend that everything is some kind of continuum but physical gender is pretty much an either or proposition. Identity is and can be very fluid, but we either have a penis or we don't. Babies are gender identified by that one little thing. CD and TS are identified by MtF or FtM. There are only two choices.

The exception is Intersex and that is so rare that the very fact that we don't know how to classify them, is what proves the gender binary.