Debunking: "I like women's clothes"

[GroovyChristy]

Ambergold, you make interesting points. You list the problems that women face and deny the "inner female," and go on to say that crossdressing is a way for us to escape the problems that men face. But I'm afraid that while you were listing the negative social implications of being female and the responsibility of power and privilege of being male, you have forgotten the virtues of femininity. Women may not (generally) have the physical "power" that males have (an overrated thing) but in their softer frames exists a subtle and mysterious power which is greater and more beautiful than the brutish muscle of a macho man. Femininity involves such things as empathy, nurturing, healing, grace, and all manner of such things which should be regarded as general virtues rather than signs of weakness. Females have as much responsibility as men do. As for social privileges and expectations, that is only a social construction which, while having real implications, has no inherent truth or cosmic validity. The social inferiority of women (which is in decline) has nothing to do with the inherent qualities of femininity, but rather the witless thinking of men through the ages.

The inner female may not be present in you, but would you deny the reality of the trans community? Are all transwomen simply looking to divest themselves of male responsibilities? In truth, they take on more hardship than any other man could ever know (that is, those who pursue transition). Gender is not black and white, but a fluid spectrum. Many great men through history have exhibited traditionally female traits, and vice versa. Think of gentle St. Francis giving a sermon to a flock of birds, or Buddha renouncing a life of wealth and war for a nonviolent existence of teaching and meditation. Conversely, think of Joan of Arc wielding a sword or Annie Oakley outshooting her male counterparts. We can choose to reject social convention (as crossdressers we do this anyway). Many of us wishing to express the inner female by whatever methods and those of us who wish we were born female would gladly take all the social discrimination, menstruation, and all other unpleasant things that come with being a woman in order to have the experience of womanhood in its beautiful and glorious entirety.

As for Reine's original question, I too am confused by the simple answers like "I just enjoy the clothes." I don't necessarily question it. If someone tells me such a simple reason, I accept that. Maybe it is that simple for them, but as always I can only speak from my own experience, which goes much deeper. Neither the simple or deeper reasons are more valid than the other, and I wish society could move forward and accept people in whatever clothes they choose to wear. If it never happens, then I will wear the clothing I want anyway, if only around the house.

[sometimes_miss]

Although I'm probably as guilty as anyone here for denying simple answers as correct, there are a lot of people who will fall apart if we push them too hard, and be forced to accept the reality of why they crossdress. We're brought up brainwashed by our parents and society to believe certain things; and our entire reality is based on our beliefs. One of those, is that we are men, and that as a man, it's only appropriate for us to behave in a certain way. A second, is that for a man to be anything feminine is such a horrible thing, that a man who does so should be very, very ashamed of it, even punished for it; even certain religions promote that to the point where men should be put to death because of it. Is there really any doubt that there is a whole lot of psychological trauma to be done by forcing those men into facing reality? Most of them are at a functional level; if you force them to stop believing what they've based their whole life on, they might have to be institutionalized. Not everyone can handle having their whole life put into question, resulting in not having any solid facts to base it on. Reine, some people simply are basically followers, and not able to think abstractly for themselves. They only know what they are told, and live their whole life based on that. If you 'throw a wrench' into their beliefs and tear them apart, you risk destroying everything they have, because often, they don't even have the ability to separate what's good and bad on their own.
An obvious incapacity to do this is, when you read the forums here, the frequent references to 'the woman inside me', or men referring to themselves in third person to distance themselves from it, such as 'my neighbor saw Alexandra today' as if they were referring to someone else instead of themselves. They simply cannot accept that it is themselves who is the female person referred to, because we've been brought up to believe it's such a horrible and completely unacceptable thing.

O.K., lets start.
Stress relief. Based on the concept that either 1. the stress is being caused by NOT dressing as a woman, or 2. we need to escape reality by being able to pretend we are someone or something else, in this case, a woman who is not the person in our 'male persons' stressful predicament. Or, both. The common statement that the desire to dress up as a woman gradually becomes so strong that it feels overwhelmeing, kind of indicates reason #1, but it can also combine with #2 when both are occuring at the same time, because it takes a certain amount of brain power to resist doing something that we feel we really need to do. But it begs the question again of why we feel the need to dress as a woman and/or behave as one. And that isn't something that a lot of 'just crossdressers' want to, or are able to, face even to themselves.

Likes the look of the clothing. Perhaps that person wants to be punished for being different, by facing ridicule from much of society. You would have to figure out why that person feels guilty about something. Or, they simply want to fantasize about being an attractive, beautiful person; why it has to be a female person, you'd have to investigate further, but for many of us who grew up being ignored romantically and got turned down by lots of potential lovers because we weren't good looking enough, the desire to be attractive is always there.

Likes the feel of the material. Again, in denial; there are plenty of men's clothes made of luxurious cloth.

Originally Posted by Wildaboutheels
You can stop most men from CDing by taking away their mirrors and/or their cameras.

This one is of course written from only one person's point of view, assuming that most other men who crossdress probably feel the same as himself. I don't take pictures of myself, and avoid mirrors when dressed. Although there are some crossdressers who do enjoy those activities, there are plenty of those who do not. I wonder how much of the pictures and mirrors concept is also based on the belief that GG's spend a lot of time in front of mirrors admiring themselves, and love having pictures of themselves taken (the last of which seems untrue; most women seem to avoid cameras like the plague).

mfakely wrote, while quoting Frederique, : Women's clothes celebrate the wearer's form, while men's clothes don't ... more than don't ... one might say the actively go in the opposite direction except in very rare edge cases.

I think the word 'celebrate' is the wrong one to use. Reveal is more correct, as women's clothing shows their figure, making it obvious that she is female and of notice to be available for mating, marriage not withstanding. Women's clothing attracts heterosexual, sexually active males to her. A simple mechanism in which to increase offspring and continue her line of DNA.

Then Cass wrote this:

An even simpler explanation is that to me, women have it better in everything--they get to express their gender without reprisal, they get to be emotional without judgement, they are pampered and cared for, they are into dialog instead of competition (typically), they get to be taken sexually, their sexuality is more holistic than focused, they are softer. The list goes on and on.

This is a common belief of a lot of men; just one of the 'grass is always greener on the other side of the fence' things. Either the man really believes it, or uses the argument to support why he feels envious of being a woman as a valid reason for his crossdressing/TG/TS condition. Of course it's not true, but when searching for a simple reason to enable them to avoid facing their underlying one, it seems lots of men use it. But it's not true; they simply don't want to face reality.

[CassandraSmith]

I wasn't really speaking for anyone else but myself here and I'm pretty much absolutely certain that I would have taken the blue pill at my conception and chosen female. I know they also face challenges but I've known several that loved being women. For sure, I would have been more successful in finding love as a woman than as a man if my present genetics were roughly the same. There is no question that I would have been highly desireable as a woman not just because I was pretty but because I'm musical, good with kids, quiet, can keep busy, etc etc. My dance coach once said that I was what men really wanted once during a lesson. So I'm not just talking of the top of my head here! I would also have had a shot at winning some contests and being a cheerleader too ;-)

Then Cass wrote this:

An even simpler explanation is that to me, women have it better in everything--they get to express their gender without reprisal, they get to be emotional without judgement, they are pampered and cared for, they are into dialog instead of competition (typically), they get to be taken sexually, their sexuality is more holistic than focused, they are softer. The list goes on and on.

This is a common belief of a lot of men; just one of the 'grass is always greener on the other side of the fence' things. Either the man really believes it, or uses the argument to support why he feels envious of being a woman as a valid reason for his crossdressing/TG/TS condition. Of course it's not true, but when searching for a simple reason to enable them to avoid facing their underlying one, it seems lots of men use it. But it's not true; they simply don't want to face reality.

[AllieSF]

For me, as I do not try to seek the definitive answer to something that is so obviously so hard to truly define, I enjoy playing that female role with my own personality when out on the real world. My goal and true enjoyment with all this is being out there interacting with others to satisfy my need for social (conversational) interactions with others. I am like that in male mode and probably more so in female mode. Secondary to that is that I also like to shop and find those rare treasures at thrift stories or on sale in better known stores. I like the variation of styles that I can experiment with as I create outfits out of various individual elements.

I read here all the time about our many members who need to know why. Yes, it would be nice to know exactly why, but seeing all that angst, confusion, frustrations and pain in trying to define that "why", I have long decided instead to focus on the fact that I want to do it for whatever reason, it is legal and hurts no one, so why not enjoy it, and that is exactly what I do.

[Ambergold43]

Ambergold, you make interesting points. You list the problems that women face and deny the "inner female," and go on to say that crossdressing is a way for us to escape the problems that men face. But I'm afraid that while you were listing the negative social implications of being female and the responsibility of power and privilege of being male, you have forgotten the virtues of femininity.

I believe that within each person exists a range of emotions. Men and women each feel these same emotions, but it is culture that determines which of these are "appropriate" to express. The expression of these emotions are generally encouraged to be expressed along binary lines (men = hard and pragmatic & women = "soft" & "nurturing"). This is the foundation for gender, which is essentially just rules for behavior that are culturally dictated for men and women. All we have when we are born is our body, the rest is culturally determined. So I would argue that virtues of femininity aren't real but are culturally constructed ideals.

Women may not (generally) have the physical "power" that males have (an overrated thing) but in their softer frames exists a subtle and mysterious power which is greater and more beautiful than the brutish muscle of a macho man. Femininity involves such things as empathy, nurturing, healing, grace, and all manner of such things which should be regarded as general virtues rather than signs of weakness. Females have as much responsibility as men do. As for social privileges and expectations, that is only a social construction which, while having real implications, has no inherent truth or cosmic validity. The social inferiority of women (which is in decline) has nothing to do with the inherent qualities of femininity, but rather the witless thinking of men through the ages.

Women, as a gender, have neither the power nor the privilege that men do in our society. If they did, there would be no women's movement or feminist movements. Women are not paid as much as men for the same work, their bodies are not respected politically in the same way that men's are... that is to say, their bodies and sexuality are political, and there are many more examples I could list. I am not using the term "power" to imply physical power (There are many women who could kick my butt for sure), I'm talking about social power and privilege, a very real thing.

The inner female may not be present in you, but would you deny the reality of the trans community? Are all transwomen simply looking to divest themselves of male responsibilities? In truth, they take on more hardship than any other man could ever know (that is, those who pursue transition). Gender is not black and white, but a fluid spectrum.

I don't deny the reality of the trans-community, and I don't claim to understand the unimaginable hardships associated with being a transsexual person. However, gender IS a fluid spectrum as you say, so how then can someone be a trans-anything when the line between genders is so blurry to begin with? To me, trans-anything seems to reinforce a binary definition of gender.

I think we associate images and characteristics with "inherent" traits, which leads us to name those feelings that we don't associate with male-ness as female. So yes, I believe that some people may be more comfortable expressing those feminine virtues that you mentioned if they look and feel the part. It's like getting into character for a play - after all, gender is nothing but a performance anyway.

[Gillian Gigs]

ReineD, good for you, a good question gets a person thinking, a great question starts a fire. Now that the fire is started, the question is who is protesting to much, as the expression goes, "if you throw a rock down a dark alley and something screams, then you know you hit something". I will leave now, to my own self reflection.