Crossdressing acceptance vs gay acceptance

[ArleneRaquel]

Crossdressers are gaining more & more acceptance, but gays/lesbians are way ahead and they have been working longer at gaining acceptance than the CD community.

[DebbieL]

Crossdressers are gaining more & more acceptance, but gays/lesbians are way ahead and they have been working longer at gaining acceptance than the CD community.

Keep in mind that Kinsey released his research in 1955, while Harry Benjamin didn't release his research until 1969. That would put us about 14 years behind the gay community, even if there were no other limiting factors.

There are also cultural factors as well. Native American cultures consider transsexuals to be "Two Spirit" people, and are believed to have special psychic and prophetic powers as well as being able to understand both the world of male and female.

In India, the Hijiri are believed to have the ability to grant their masculinity to other male children, and their femininity to female children. They are considered more like priestesses, with many other magical powers and insight. They are believed to be a high cast. Brahma, the creator god, has 4 faces, one of which is female. The Hijiri are similarly multifaceted - having qualities of creation, destruction, redemption, and compassion, in a single body.

[PaulaQ]

Keep in mind that Kinsey released his research in 1955, while Harry Benjamin didn't release his research until 1969. That would put us about 14 years behind the gay community, even if there were no other limiting factors.

Aren't there just significantly fewer of us than gay people? I realize there is overlap in these sets, still, aren't gay people (i.e. someone who is gay with no gender issues) about 5x-10x more numerous than trans people? Do you think that is a factor?

[Vicky_Scot]

Interesting question.

Gay community are tolerated by society in general but not accepted.

Even after all these years of campaigning the gay community are still frowned upon by many.

But you do realise the gay community do not accept crossdressers...........FACT

So they are hypocrites.

Crossdressing accepted by the general public...........never.

Crossdressing tolerated by the general public...........maybe.

[mandytg]

Here in the Uk Gays and Lesbians are generally accepted in society, same sex marriage is now accepted, Transexuals are now being better understood, and our National Health Service offer transitional counselling and sexual re asiignment surgery. The crossdressers does not receive this level of acceptance, perhaps at this stage all we crossdressers can hope for is tollerance, and hopefully in years to come acceptance. and a roll in society that gay people have.

[xdressed]

I haven't read through all the posts so sorry if my points have already come up. I think most of it is ignorance, as we are generally more closeted than our LGB cousins and thus there are less of us standing up for ourselves or explaining things to people. The general feeling I get from many people is they think we are 'lying' in some way, pretending to be a woman, which to them is something we are not in any sense because they don't even slightly understand the concept of emotional identity (even most of the people I know who are accepting of crossdressing don't understand at all either and seem to just turn off when I try to explain it to them). I also think it's partly because we are much more visually oriented than gay people. There is a sterotype of what gay people look like but many if not most of them don't actually dress or act like that (Stephen Fry is the most obvious example of this that comes to my mind) whereas if someone is crossdressing, people are more likely to notice.

[Maria S]

Just a question for everyone here gg's or cd's. Do you think that being homosexual is more accepted than being a crossdresser and why? to me it seems that women are more comfortable around a gay man than a crossdresser it could just be me, but i wonder why given that there is still a false stereotype that many cd's are

Homosexual seems to be more accepted than CD. It seems to be when your parents are told it is "as long as you are happy, shame we will never be grandparents". It seems to be accepted as inevitable that a certain percentage of mankind are going to be either gay or lesbian. It seems that people think CDing is just some kind of perverted game that we are playing perhaps to gain attention. In my experience women are very accepting of CDers more so than men. Men seem to think it is letting the masculine team down and they can't understand or don't want to understand why. Women seem to accept it more perhaps they understand the enjoyment of being feminine, the clothes, the hair, the shoes etc. I can't really comment about women being comfortable around gay men as it has been a long time since I have been in a position to judge.

Maria

[Tanya J]

I have to believe that the possibility for a more accepting culture is there. All of us have heard the argument that it was not that long ago that women wearing pants was frowned upon. We have reached a point as a society that women are doing many things that were once out of the question to them as female. I don't think twice about a woman doing the same thing i do as a occupation, yet it wasn't that long ago that was not the case. I personally hope that as a community we can step through some of these barriers more graciously than many other groups have in trying to push their causes. There have been so many wonderful points brought up in this thread on ways to do just that. Thank you all so much for your input

[Marleena]

Here's something to ponder. Could you tell the difference between a man in a dress or a gay man in a dress?

[sometimes_miss]

Thanks for stating this simple fact. Also, everyone should understand that if you friends won't accept that you are a crossdresser then they were never really your friends to begin with. Telling and showing friends that you are a crossdressers is a great litmus test to determine who your real friends are. If you can't be yourself around friends, then these so called "friends" are not worth having.

Easy to say, hard to do. At 50, I'm not willing to cut ties to everyone just on principle. I've already lost family members and friends because of this, I'm not going to become a social hermit just because some other crossdressers think it's a good idea and helps 'the cause'.
This thread is quickly becoming another 'everyone must be out' one. No thanks. My life is difficult enough without all the additional problems that I'd have to deal with by coming out to the world. And if you can't imagine any of those problems, just read through all the old threads on this topic. I'm not going to list it all again.

[Wildaboutheels]

How many Gay friends do you have Tanya? Or how many do you know personally? How do you KNOW that they are gay? IS it possible you have some gay friends you are not even aware of? I have met gay people [men] who DO have a "higher pitched/softer" voice. And/or DO walk a bit differently. But I have also known both gay men and women for years and never knew they were gay. Till THEY themselves told me. As gays gain ever increasing LEGAL rights, isn't it likely that more gay people are no longer "hiding"? So more people are becoming aware that there are "plenty" of gay people out there who are "perfectly normal" other than their sexual preference? People who do just as good a job at work, if not better and "contributing to Society" as "normal" people? Do gay people NEED to go around telling others "Hey, I think you should know I'm gay?

I think [just my best guess] that most people's idea here of "acceptance" is just to be able to go out "dressed" to some extent and not be bothered, laughed at or insulted in any way.

There are many here who hang out behind their computers whining endlessly about Mean Ol' Society, who have NEVER left their closets. But claim to want to. And would. If not for Mean Ol' Society...

The REALITY is that Society does not care and there are hundreds of people here who go out on a regular basis who can attest to this. Maybe the whiners think it is some kind of mass conspiracy and that all the people over the years who have reported their adventures here are all lying? How many folks do you think read these Forums and never bother to chime in? And how many people who go out on a regular basis and "could never pass in a million years"/don't even try to pass [their own terms] have ever reported ANY threats of violence/baseball bats/pitchforks etc.?

Of course maybe the whiners have their own idea of just what "acceptance" IS and ISN'T?

[arbon]

It's a lot harder for people to get their mind around hetrosexual men wanting to dress as women then it is for to understand same sex attraction.

[RonniCD]

Wow! So many great comments and points of view here, and many of the posts resonate for me.

I’ve discussed this very topic with my S/O several times over the past year, way before joining this forum.

I believe that being homosexual is more accepted by our society than being a crossdresser, and my basis for that belief comes from the reactions of gay & lesbian folks themselves that I have either witnessed personally or anecdotally secondhand. I’m in California, the land of “fruits and nuts” to much of the rest of the country (LOL), and crossdressers, by and large, are still are on the fringe of society, behind many other subcultures even here. Admittedly, I'm talking about acceptance by a slice of society, and not society as a whole, but I want to share this.

I have 4 stories, but the one that really rang my bell was the one of my S/O’s former co-worker (let’s call her Katy). Katy was married with children, until she met Cally, who she now lives with full time and is her mate. My S/O was visiting Katy, and somehow the topic came up of a man they both used to work with (call him Jim) about 20 years ago. Jim approached Katy, knowing that she was openly lesbian, and confided in her that he was a crossdresser and asked if she would help with some makeup tips or go shopping. She was appalled and offended that he would dare consider her gayness as anything like crossdressing and flatly refused him. Not only that, but she outed him to my S/O by name and probably has done it to anyone else who knew him. There was nothing about the circumstance that I heard in the story that he approached her in a creepy way or that sought anything but some sympathetic advice with his secret. They were friends when they worked together.

I have directly experienced 3 other instances of gay men deriding crossdressing with contempt, but I’ll save the descriptions. I find it interesting that members of a repressed minority exhibited the intolerance they have fought against, if not personally then certainly collectively.

I also read with interest that a makeover and night-on-the-town service in the northwest said "The only places we don't go are gay and lesbian establishments. Though perfectly safe, those are the last places where we would blend in."

Really? If I went to a gay bar, would they point, snicker and make fun of my boobs?

I’ve never been out dressed, ever, so I don’t really know first hand how the world reacts, but I’m going to think long and hard before outing myself to a lesbian

Thanks for all of your posts- great reading and lots of food for thought.

[Lorileah]

I also read with interest that a makeover and night-on-the-town service in the northwest said "The only places we don't go are gay and lesbian establishments. Though perfectly safe, those are the last places where we would blend in."

I want to see the results of their makeovers. They must work miracles. The chorus must sing. Even Hollywood can't pull off complete stealth. My imagination sees a bunch of Ruth Buzzi old woman on the bench characters for this place. I will buy this makeover if they can make me total blendable in a straight bar

[Jenniferathome]

There is no question that gay men and women are more accepted than cross dressers. The reason is time. Remember that homosexuals have been fighting the fight for decades. Not too long ago, homosexuality was a mental illness. Then it was a lifestyle choice (yeah, right), and now it is just what someone is. Well cross dressing is in the same boat but because we do not fight the fight, it will be in the closet, for decades and decades to come, I think.

So why don't we fight the fight, you might ask? Because we don't need to. Unlike homosexuals, we are allowed to marry, it is non-obvious in our jobs and in our lives tot he external world and most importantly, for the vast majority of cross dressers, it is a part time thing and we're ok with that.

[Badtranny]

Jim approached Katy, knowing that she was openly lesbian, and confided in her that he was a crossdresser and asked if she would help with some makeup tips or go shopping.

This is so obviously offensive that I'm almost surprised that it needs to be explained.

So, Katy is openly Lesbian which means she lives her life out loud and does not hide the fact that she has a same sex relationship. Perhaps she frequents the local gay bar and has friends there and she doesn't skulk around hiding from 'people at work'. Now Jim on the other hand is a secret CD who is probably straight and probably considers himself a lesbian (only based on what I see in this forum). So because Katy is brave enough to live her life openly, Jim thinks that she would be interested in his dirty little secret? What do you think these two people have in common exactly? Why would Katy want to go back in the closet for someone? What does that mean? Okay, suppose she DID go shopping or hang out with Jim when he was dressed up and they always have to go out of town or certain places were off limits because Jim is so closeted. Maybe they have a great time shopping, or maybe Katy finds a great pair of shoes in size 13 so she brings them in one day and Jim freaks out and tells her "not here!".

CD's want GG friends, but they have no idea how difficult it is to keep someone's secret. YOU don't have a problem keeping it under wraps because it's so personal but there is no way somebody else is going to be that discreet, especially a girl who gets used to hanging out with you when you're dressed and they actually consider you a friend. It's uncomfortable to be in a position where you have to lie to people. People that are out and proud do not want any more secrets.

I understand that Jim simply felt like Katy would be accepting of his lifestyle and she might very well be, (I'm sure she has flamboyant friends) but he really needed to establish a deeper friendship first. If he was unable to do that, then she's just not his people. From Katy's point of view, Jim's approach was not welcome because she felt like he was reducing her whole life to a single facet of her expression, as well as trying to burden her with HIS secret. Who would be receptive to that?

[RonniCD]

This is so obviously offensive that I'm almost surprised that it needs to be explained

Well, it's not obvious to me, even after reading the explanation several times. Perhaps I'm clueless, or I belong in the Slow Learner Category, but I don't get what Jim did that was SO offensive. Katy had many choices about how to handle it, and being outrageously offended and then retelling the story and outing poor ol' naive Jim wasn't the best one.

The take away lesson for me from all this discussion here and in a related thread about gay bars is a reinforcement of the idea that crossdressing is no more accepted by the gay/lesbian community than it is in the mainstream.

What do you think these two people have in common exactly?

Jim and Katy were friends, they worked together and traveled together on business. It certainly wasn’t a cold approach on the first day on the job in the lunchroom. There was a time that I might have thought that someone in the gay/lesbian community might have been more accepting because they have experienced “being different” in sexual and social terms and all that goes along with it and might have been empathetic to someone else dealing with an aspect of their sexuality. I’m taking a wild guess that Jim thought so too, and I am also guessing he was quite taken aback by Katy’s reaction.

But I am now the wiser for having been around the block once or twice, and also for reading these threads and others. Coming out has its risks and many threads have been devoted to that general topic. I’m totally out to the only person who really needs to know –my SO- and she is totally cool with it. I don’t have any plans to come out to anyone else –gay, straight, bi, whatever, and run the risk of offending them.

[busker]

Can the fact that we look different be a factor?

Yes, for a start. If crossdressing was just that--wearing clothes designed for women, i suspect that there would be more acceptance in general, but the extent of crossdresing to encompass "femulating" is where the problem lies. So few can pull it off, and so many want to wear styles that simply don't fit in in regular day to day goings on, and not to mention that if you are 6-3, weigh 250 and take a size 14 brogan, it is going to be too easy to disguise that frame. If I were 5 foot tall and wanted to be a quartetback for the Jets I doubt thatit would go. So I would need to do something else to express my desire to throw a football.
I suspect that if we spent time really BLENDING in by wearing womens clothing without all the make, wigs etc, we would eventually get more acceptance. After all, men wear tights in gymnastics, in cycling, in fencing, men wear pull-on pants for sports, shorts without zippers, boat-necked pullovers were popular in the 30's, fur coats were popular in the 20's and 30's, peg-legged pants were popular in the 50's (I had a pair) and would be called capris or matador pants today.
On and on and on.
Men wanting to look and dress JUST like a woman is never going to be accepted.Tolerance is about all that would be hoped for.

[Badtranny]

I don’t have any plans to come out to anyone else –gay, straight, bi, whatever, and run the risk of offending them.

Oh the drama! ;-)

Coming out wasn't the problem, she may very well have been very supportive of his lifestyle but that's not what he did. He asked her to be a shopping and make-up buddy. Please read my earlier post again because I don't know that I could explain the difference between an out lesbian and a closeted CD any better than that. If somebody were to come into my office and 'come out" to me as a gay man, I would be fully supportive and would try to keep their secret if they liked but if they then asked me to give them a tour of the Castro or to introduce them to some other gay guys, or to go with them to a drag show I would be pretty darn offended. His lifestyle is none of my business but to assume he has anything in common with me as a gay man is way off base. I am not a gay man, in fact I don't know the first thing about cruising the Castro. I have no problem with gay men, or the street culture but it ain't my bag baby, and I don't know a single fully transitioned MtF who wouldn't be offended at the implication.

People can come out to me as anything and I will support them, but they are crossing the line when they start to assume that I'm one of them just because I'm a trans woman. Jim crossed the line when he assumed Katy was like him just because she was a lesbian. Maybe he should have tried simply increasing the intimacy level of ther friendship first. A few weeks after coming out, a simple "hey, I'm heading out to the mall after work, to do some shopping, wanna come?" would have been a much better opening.

[Rogina B]

Crossdressers are gaining more & more acceptance, but gays/lesbians are way ahead and they have been working longer at gaining acceptance than the CD community.

I believe in using the term Transgenders,rather than crossdressers,when one speaks of acceptance. It is more than a casual thing to many of us so the word crossdresser doesn't really describe all of us well..Small point to some,but a big point to some of us...

[ArleneRaquel]

Rogina,
I agree. My phasing was incorrect.