The "man in a skirt" phenomenon

[Jenniferathome]

Do we really think John Q Public looks any differently if were made up and presenting nicely vs walking around with a beard or whatever? ...

If "they are going to accept us fully presenting, they will accept us partially presenting. ...

To the first point, YES! It's all about shock value. Apples and Oranges to John Q.

To the second point, If the question is, can John Q handle either, then yes, he can. But do not underestimate the shock value.

...If you look at any culture you have kilts, dhoti, lungi, sarong, kanga, lamba, fustanella, and so forth.

Indeed, those cultures have that style of dress. But we don't live in those cultures. We live in THIS, Western culture where cross dressing is not ok and wearing a skirt is for women. it's just reality. We all live in reality, not in "should be" land.

Dress as you like and accept the consequences of your actions. That's the real world. Most people won't care. Some will. Again, reality.

[Princess Grandpa]

As there is no way to know which of us is right Jennifer I guess we agree to disagree. Hug. I don't believe they see anything but a man in a dress no matter how nicely we present.

And in the end John Q Public doesn't matter. We all have to be true to our own selves. Whether that means going out as a man in a skirt, fully presenting beautifully, or transitioning. We each have to follow the path we feel is right and have to allow everyone else to do the same.

Hug
Rita

[JamieOH]

I can assure you that I definitely look like a man no matter how I do my make up and wig. And a lot of times I don't wear wig and makeup. Yet I don't disgust or make people uncomfortable. I may not look like a beauty queen or even a. Drag queen, but I am confident and smile. I hold my head high. And people respond to me with courtesy and respect. They smile laugh with me not at me. It is all about how you approach them. And how you see yourself

[Secret Drawer]

I never expected this thread to grow legs like it did, thanks to everyone for your input.
There seems to be two sticking points that need addressing, one being the presentation issue, and the other is the “whats the point?”
In so far as presentation, I only ever expect anyone (CDs and non CDs alike) to dress appropriately for community standards and venue. The very idea of shock value (even disgust!) is off the table! Presentation, no matter what the gender variation should always be of the most tasteful. The slippery slope here is if you cannot accept someone wearing the clothing of the opposite gender at all, then you cannot accept yourself either, which I fear is the issue for some of the folks here.
The idea of “whats the point?” is a struggle for understanding which is always a good thing to try to do, and I will try to clarify for those who wonder.
I identify myself as gender fluid. What this means (among other things) is that I do not necessarily identify as being wholly male or female. If I were to wake up tomorrow morning with a vagina instead of a penis I would no doubt be surprised, but ultimately not have a particular crisis attack over it, and eventually just get on with my day. (Because I do not identify myself through my genitalia at all!) Now, if I decided to wear a skirt later that day it would technically fit within even the strictest community standards because after all, technically I would be an actual woman. However, in our little scenario I have exactly the same male looking body, face, everything! So according to some, I will shock and disgust the general public prompting a witch hunt and getting arrested for some form or other of classless act. Once I was in jail and it was discovered that I in fact was a woman, then it becomes a shameful apology fest. (After all, ugly is not a crime... yet!?) However, this scenario is highly unlikely, but why is it somehow OK for the above “beat down” to be acceptable simply because I have different plumbing then the packaging indicated? (Bearing in mind that we are holding ourselves to tasteful and acceptable attire, minus the opposite gender bit!)
In so far as the why bother, the short answer is because that is simply as far as I feel the need to go. Some are happy just in the bedroom, some need to become post op women. It is just a step along the way.

[noeleena]

Hi,

So a man in a skirt. or a dress no matter ether way. so Join our group The SCA. or some other Renaissance group. im a member and its world wide, most of our men wear dress's and the Public know this so where is the man in a dress gone wrong ,

oh but of cause western thinking over the last how many years, you work it out, so what has changed since the time men wore dress's to now,

Now then ....you look at my photo what do you see some one with no hair no makeup male masculine facial features at our Scottish week end late last year, with 50 of our people im well known do the photo work and seen all the time, so pass judgement ill say I look more male so my ? to you is am i.

I'v been asked, told , your game to be dressed as a woman or you have the courage to take on the personer of a woman and are you a woman ,

So how would you answer that , you see i have a few screws lose or missing a bit insane and plan weird so quite nuts as it is , so why would i dress as i do, and many 1000's of people see me and many 10,s of 1000's more know my background as well so why the hell would i put my self and family through the hell of, what the hell are you and doing,

as you go look up my profile ether here or the net, youll see some of us are born different, not a dresser though it looks like i do, not trans though some would be more happy had i been, well maybe not,
So i'll let you answer then you can tell me instead of giving my answer, see what you come up with. then you may understand why some of us are skited up or dressed up because of how we are born,

...noeleena...

[Sallee]

Interesting statement. I read a statement here at one time where it was said that it is ok for a girl to put on mens clothing and not be thought of as a cross dresser. This is true as long as she isn't trying to pass. So guess with that being a norm it should be true for men to do the same as long as he isn't trying to pass. That would mean for a man no bra or wig. Although I guess make up would be ok. It seems like the pass thing is what begins to cause concern. I know that I try to "pass" (thought of as a woman by the casual eye) and that makes me a CD/TV. I think it would be the same for women if they put a binder on and stuff their pants then they are a dc/tv.
In my eye it is all ok but that is where the acceptance and rejection problems begin to occur.
I know it isn't the same for me unless I am trying to "pass"

[Amanda M]

I come from a Western culture where men wear skirts. Scotland. So sometimes, I AM a man in a skirt. Here is the conundrum though. I love my femme clothing, but somehow my Scottish "skirt" just does not cut the mustard!

[Tanya+]

i was driving home, saw a lovely set of legs in patterned pantyhose, 4" heels mid-thigh length skirt, -my kind of outfit.. plane black shirt neatly trimmed beard. confident, gorgeous handsome. Everything i would be if i was a tad less repressed.

"i wouldn't, so he shouldn't" ?!! Spare me.

[kendra_gurl]

I love my femme clothing, but somehow my Scottish "skirt" just does not cut the mustard!

Great example of the basic crossdressers desire, to wear female clothing not something that is still made for males. Huge difference between a Kilt and a Pencil skirt.

Indeed, those cultures have that style of dress. But we don't live in those cultures. We live in THIS, Western culture where cross dressing is not ok and wearing a skirt is for women. it's just reality. We all live in reality, not in "should be" land.

Dress as you like and accept the consequences of your actions. That's the real world. Most people won't care. Some will. Again, reality.

Exatly!


Secret Drawer
You are correct...you will not suddenly wake up tomorrow with a vagina. So knowing that I ask again to help me understand the need to wear a skirt while presenting as male. Your scenario was a attempt to make it acceptable (I can appreciate what you were expressing if it could have happened) but not explain the desire.

[Krisi]

I too am curious as to why a man would walk around town in a skirt but not otherwise try to appear female. Genuinely curious.

And I really am curious how it affects one's family and employment. I mean if someone sees me out and dressed, they might say "Boy that woman looks a lot like Joe.", but if I was wearing a skirt but had a beard and bald head they would say "What's the matter with Joe, parading around town in a skirt?"

[Jenniferathome]

Krisi, I would suggest that it is because they are NOT trying to pass as female.

What is funny about your comment is that it is written from a "wants to pass" cross dresser's perspective. If a woman were writing this, she may write, "I am curious why a man would walk around town in a skirt." It's just perspective.

[Gillian Gigs]

I see a big part of the problem as being that we project how we are thinking onto the rest of the population. You can not understand why some guy would want to wear a skirt around town, then you automatically think that everyone is thinking the same way. By example, I find that most card cheats are continually on the look out for other card cheats. Why, because they are thinking that everyone is just like them, a card cheat! For many of us we remember the first few times we went into the womens wear section of the store, nervous, thinking that at any moment the store intercom was going to shout for security to remove that pervert from fondling panties in the lingerie section. Well guess what, it didn't happen, the clerk helped us and no one said boo at the check out. Through this we gained confidance, and now for many of us we shop without a thought for whatever we want.
Would I be a CD'er if I dressed feminine from the waist down and masculine from the waist up...who really cares! Would people be shocked, or has Holywood helped us by using the whole CD thing for comic purposes. Hence they would wag their head and think silly person.
As someone said;
"I read a statement here at one time where it was said that it is ok for a girl to put on mens clothing and not be thought of as a cross dresser. This is true as long as she isn't trying to pass. So guess with that being a norm it should be true for men to do the same as long as he isn't trying to pass."
So how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time! My point, any small freedom of expression should be considered a move forward. Any small step on the road of self expression is good for the next person no matter how far down the road they want to travel. I strongly believe in freedoms, but not at the expense of doing harm to others. Just because someone thinks that what I am doing is weird, is not causing harm.
If I were to wear a cowboy hat and boots, that doesn't make me a cowboy. If I were to wear a skirt and hose, that doesn't make me a girl either. Both should be nothing more than a fashion statement, based on how the individual feels on the inside. Now, we just have to get the rest of society to see it the same way!

[Lynn Marie]

Why do I get the feeling that the bearded guys in skirts are the only ones on this forum pushing an agenda. Personally I'd rather not be pushed.

[Rhonda Darling]

What the heck, I'll jump on the moving train. . . . .

I suspect that those among US who are upset the most about the "man in a dress" presentation are those of us who try hardest to pass and blend in with the GGs of the world. We are aware that much of society still ridicules the over the top transvestites / performers, fed by Hollywood's general way of painting all of us into the same corner, and making us the butt of jokes or the pathetic sex workers of the back story. Seeing the proverbial "man in a dress" out and about in the real world (we fear) only strengthens the negative stereotype.

An example is called for. At the Keystone conference last year, there were a couple of CDs (and they were a couple) who were into what I call "little girl fettish dressing". Short flouncy pink dresses with petticoats, pink or white anklet socks, Mary Jane or ballet flats with instep strap, Hello Kitty backpacks, pig tails with ribbons in their hair, and more. These "ladies" were likely in their 50s or beyond. So 28 of us go into a nice restaurant dressed. For an evening out and trying to present as ladylike an appearance as possible, and two of us waltz in looking like Little Bo Peep. All eyes in the restaurant swivel to take in their presentation, and then the whole lot of us are given the thrice over. Any possible chance of blending ended when they made their entrance.

That carries over to real every day life. The extremes feed the stereotype, making it more difficult to evade being stereotyped.

We may not like it about ourselves, but many of us are indeed critical of those who don't work at it to blend or pass. However, even if you don't blend or pass, if you've given it a reasonable attempt, we won't fault you. But, if your presentation screams extreme, expect criticism.

IMHO.

Rhonda

[mechamoose]

I don't know that there is an 'agenda' being pushed, Lynn Marie...

As one of the "guy in a skirt" crowd, I'm just me. I'm envious of a number of you folks in the "transition" crowd in that you go MUCH further than I do or could based on my situation (I have an agreement with the wife not to remove my fur. One of my tiny number of limits.) But when I walk into clothing stores I ooh and ah all over the women's selections.

For me, I'm not trying to change my gender identity in the same way the 'trans' crowd is. I'm showing different facets of myself, not trying to be a different *version* of myself.

I think that is a key difference.

<3

- MM

[UNDERDRESSER]

Well put Gillian. I don't think of myself as a crossdresser, because, in the same way that my GF might decide to wear a "masculine" style of coat, she isn't trying to look like a man, she is just trying to project a look that has masculine connotations. (at least as far as mainstream society is concerned) When I wear a skirt and hose, it's to project a part of me that a lot of people see as "feminine" but which I don't, in the same way that my GF looking strong and confident, is not exclusively masculine to me. I am dressing to get attention, (somewhat) but not to shock, I would love it if the only reaction was from the girls saying, "Oh! That really shows off your legs!"

[Princess Grandpa]

Krisi, I would suggest that it is because they are NOT trying to pass as female.

What is funny about your comment is that it is written from a "wants to pass" cross dresser's perspective. If a woman were writing this, she may write, "I am curious why a man would walk around town in a skirt." It's just perspective.

This right here! To some (John q public) it's abnormal for a man to present as a woman. To some it's ok to present as a woman but abnormal to dress without the full presentation.

Why do I get the feeling that the bearded guys in skirts are the only ones on this forum pushing an agenda. Personally I'd rather not be pushed.

I get a very different message from this thread. The agenda I see is those that don't dress our way need to get with the program. They need to conform to the proper way of cross dressing. I don't see "the man in the skirt" trying to make you conform. I see them arguing for their right to exist.

If we cannot give acceptance to those who feel, think, or act differently, what right do we have to expect acceptance for ourselves? The comments I'm reading are no different than the comments they *waves vaguely* make about us? If I'm misinterpreting the comments I see here I apologize but what I see is the same thing I'm faced with in the mainstream public and why my outings are now restricted to these couple of clubs where I feel safe.

I wear women's clothing without fully presenting. I have an everyday wardrobe of jeans and tops and such. All semi androgynous. A dude wouldn't realize I'm wearing from the women's section but a woman probably would. If I'm wearing a dress or skirt and leaving the house I need to do my best to blend. If I'm sitting around the house I won't bother Julie to do my make up but I will wish I had. I still use the wig and forms. I will shave however even if I can't use make up. Not sure why I feel differently once it becomes a dress instead of pants. *ponders*

This issue seems to me very much like marriage equality. If you disapprove of same sex marriage don't marry someone of the same sex. If you disapprove of crossdressing don't crossdress. If you disapprove of partial dressing don't partial dress. Beyond that it doesn't affect you. That person does not have any responsibility to be a good poster child for trans-rights.


Frankly I'm sick and tired of hearing people cry about trans-rights or gay-rights or <insert label>-rights. They are human rights! We don't need acceptance only for the transsexual or for the properly presenting cross dresser. Everybody deserves to be who they are. Nobody should have to subjugate how they feel, who they are, to please the rest of us!

Hug
Rita

[Wildaboutheels]

Is it really wise to place a lot of stock in people's opinions who have very little actual EXPERIENCE "dressed" out in the RW?

And/or THINK they know how JDPublic is going to react?

And/or THINK they know what JDPublic is thinking?

No one knows what JDPublic is thinking regardless of who is wearing what.

And lost in the shuffle as always... It does NOT matter what JDPublic is thinking anyway.

Until one realizes and recognizes this, one will always be a CDer with their head on a swivel. THE quickest way to out yourself.

[Princess Grandpa]

The venom and hostility towards this idea of a “man in a skirt” is just a lack of understanding. I implore the members on this site to hold a higher standard then the general public probably ever will. There is no easy road for any of us here and while we will never all agree on the radio station, this site should always be a warm safe car to be in.

A very nice thought. The inability of some to accept others perplexes me immensely! If in fact repeated trips into the real world would make me understand how it's right to treat others this way I'm very glad I quit when I did.

I especially like this last line. "There is no easy road for any of us and while we will never agree on the radio station this site should always be a warm safe car to be in". That it could be anything else leaves me in shock.

Hug
Rita

[kendra_gurl]

Hostile actions or Agendas are not my nature. What I notice so far seems to be discussion about those who do verses those who don't. There really is no right or wrong in this thread and we don't even need to choose sides Rhonda's example of her experience demonstrated the difference some CD's have from others and how they affect each other.

The OP stated the following which I would like her to elaborate on. Help us understand your point of view.

Not only is it incorrect to state that men in skirts are out to shock the general public or are harmful to the CDTG community it also could not be further from the truth! .

The venom and hostility towards this idea of a “man in a skirt” is just a lack of understanding. .

Krisi, I would suggest that it is because they are NOT trying to pass as female. .

Jennifer sure they are not trying to pass as female but that is no answer as to why are they wearing a skirt in male mode if not to shock or draw attention.

If a woman were writing this, she may write, "I am curious why a man would walk around town in a skirt." It's just perspective.

If you understand why a woman would write that why can you not understand why some CD's have the same question?

I get a very different message from this thread. The agenda I see is those that don't dress our way need to get with the program. They need to conform to the proper way of cross dressing. I don't see "the man in the skirt" trying to make you conform. I see them arguing for their right to exist.

I agree with their right to exist. I just want to understand their reason. Even you in the next quote state you do not do this while in public without trying to blend

I wear women's clothing without fully presenting. I have an everyday wardrobe of jeans and tops and such. All semi androgynous. A dude wouldn't realize I'm wearing from the women's section but a woman probably would. If I'm wearing a dress or skirt and leaving the house I need to do my best to blend. Hug
Rita

[Princess Grandpa]

"I just want to understand their reason". How often have we all heard that. I would love to understand why I need to do this. Other that those trapped in the wrong body, why do any of us do this. There has yet to be anyone able to answer that question as far as I know.

The reason I can understand that a GG would question us like that but not understand why a CD would question a partial dresser (appropriate phrase?) is we should know better. We've been on the side of the one being questioned. We know what it's like to feel ostracized, picked on, or made to feel abnormal. You feel they *waves his hand vaguely* should accept you. Can you tell them why you do it? I can't. I've heard them say we do it for shock value. "Why else would they leave the house?" It's the same things I read here on this thread.

Hug
Rita

[Jenniferathome]

Jennifer sure they are not trying to pass as female but that is no answer as to why are they wearing a skirt in male mode if not to shock or draw attention.

If you understand why a woman would write that why can you not understand why some CD's have the same question?

Kendra, on your first statement, I think you have to allow for the possibility that it is for simple comfort or style preference. Shock or attention are not the only answers.

On the second point, I never disputed this question. I DO understand why some CD would ask. My point is that it is the perspective of the "asker" that dictates what is seen as odd or not.

[donnalee]

Frankly, I am flabbergasted by many of these replies. How could people who want so much to be understood and accepted deny that to someone else? Opinions are one thing, outright hostility (and most of those replies are extremely hostile) are entirely out of line.

"Those who who would give up their freedom for a little temporary security will get (and deserve) neither." - Benjamin Franklin

To seek acceptance while not being accepting falls much into the same category.

[Marcelle]

Great thread and to be honest "well put". I am one who dresses to blend when she goes out (femme cloths, wig, make-up) but I hold no illusions that people look at me and say "girl". So while I may not be sporting a beard with my dress, people still see what I am . . . a guy, dude, man, homme, hombre, bloke. Very few of us truly pass when complete en femme. However, I have come to terms with that and accept it as who I am.

Is a guy going out in a dress very much different than those of us with a wig and make-up . . . with the exception of an effort to disguise the fact we are guys . . . no. We all do what we need to do to feel good about ourselves so who am I to judge. I might wear make-up, sport a wig and don jewelry but in the end I am just a "guy in a skirt". This is from a TG/CD perspective and before anyone gets insulted I know that it is very much different for our TS sisters in that it is not about dressing it is about being.

Hugs

Isha

[Krisi]

"Is it really wise to place a lot of stock in people's opinions who have very little actual EXPERIENCE "dressed" out in the RW?

And/or THINK they know how JDPublic is going to react?

And/or THINK they know what JDPublic is thinking?

No one knows what JDPublic is thinking regardless of who is wearing what."


Of course they do because of their experience being out in public as a male and observing "JDPublic". During much of my career I was part of a team out in public driving from jobsite to jobsite to do work. I remember very well one or more members of the team commenting "Hey - look at that f***ing faggot he-she over there." or something similar. Many times.

The way you know what "JDPublic" is thinking is to be part of it and be observant. Even today I hear friends commenting on crossdressers they have come into contact with. We may not like it but that's the way it is. Denying it won't change a thing.