Is the world today leaving us here behind?

[ReluctantDebutant]

I understand this is hard to imagine, but imagine a world where you could tell women this stuff, and have a decent chance of it being acceptable because women who do like this, few though they may be, would feel free to talk about it themselves, and actively seek such partners. That's what wider acceptance could get you.

This world isn't hard to imagine, Paula, because we already live in it. For a while now there have been dating sites specifically geared toward cross-dressers and the women who love them. Even many mainstream dating sites have this option in the choices it allows. The problem with this is that you usually find that the only thing in common is cross-dressing which isn't a good start for a lasting relationship. I can't speak for others but I would personally like to have a connection based on more fundamental values.

I'm sorry so many of you don't see the benefits of being out has had for the broader LGBT community. I think it's kind of sad that some of you who do know those benefits deny them for whatever reasons you have. But look, it's your lives. If you think staying hidden, conforming to a world with standards that don't really seem to fit people like you, is the way of the future, then I guess you aren't being left behind. If you think gays and lesbians were MUCH better off in the closet, if you think anti-crossdressing laws were THE BOMB, then maybe all this coming out stuff is really a terrible idea. Maybe you have fun hiding? That wasn't my experience, but hey, that's just me.

This is such a false dichotomy I do not know where to begin. The fact that many cross-dressers feel comfortable not being out means they prefer gays and lesbians in the closet and anti-crossdressing laws? Or perhaps these cross-dressers are just making personal decisions tailored to their own life and can be quite happy for other cross-dressers who make different decisions? They can simply enjoy a world where the can come out if they choose but just happen not to choose? Maybe many of us do in fact have fun "hiding" as you put it. It doesn't have to be your experience and we all know it's not just you. There are plenty of examples of CDs and TSs who are out and about having a good time. They will be followed by those still "hiding" who care to.

Oh - and for those of you who think I do this for some type of self-aggrandizement? The only way you'll get rid of someone like me who you perceive to be a self-serving fool who talks about your issues to serve their own purposes is to stand up and speak for yourselves. Otherwise, you're left with people like me doing it for you, for whatever reasons we might choose to do it. You're WELCOME! :D

Note: Still not seeing a denial of the self-aggrandizing

Could someone please enlighten me as to the oppression that cross-dressers like myself are supposedly under? What about myself am I to speak up about? To whom do I need to be speaking to? And why should they care? Wouldn't cross-dressers issues come up organically in the cross-dresser community? Wouldn't this thread be pointless if there was a real universal feeling among cross-dressers of oppression? We wouldn't need to be told by outside elements that we to rally and start a movement. We would be speaking for ourselves already. We should just be happy we don't live in such a dire situation. Sure we have a few problems but they are mostly small and individual. I don't think the CD community is likely to submit to an injustice being perpetrated on it. I give it more credit then that.

If you are interested in why I care about CDs at all, the actual reason is very simple. A number of folks who identify as CDs now are, in fact, trans women. That certainly was my experience. Some number of them die rather than come out and be their true selves. The culture of secrecy some of y'all seem to be promoting kills people. It also makes certain aspects of your lives less pleasant, in my opinion. The inability to tell who's a CD and who's a transsexual, until that person transitions, means that some people like me are ensconced amongst your highly closeted ranks. The ones who can't get past the shame to come out and transition often have really terrible endings. And that I cannot abide. I will also add that I've talked to a great many of you. Very few of you seem terribly happy, and quite a number seem pretty miserable. I hate that, and it makes me hope for changes that would better your lives. Really I hope and pray for changes that will better ALL of our lives.

I haven't seen anyone promote a culture of secrecy and certainly not one that kills people. No one has advocated that all cross-dressers have to stay in the closet just that cross-dressers who do stay closeted aren't cowards, letting down the community, and I guess now not responsible for the deaths of closeted TS. Sure secrecy can make some of life's aspects less pleasant, most trade offs do. Marriage takes away the pleasantries of bachelorhood but you gain companionship in return. Charity take away extra time and or money away but gives back in other ways. Tradeoffs are just a part of life you have to trust a person to know best what tradeoffs are good for their life. Yeah cross-dressing can make one feel bad especially someone like me who wants to look like a cross between Christina Hendricks and Sofia Vergara but I look like a cross between Rick Moranis and Danny DeVito. To be honest you don't sound happy yourself, Paula, and you transitioned. What can we gather from that? Not much You really can't judge a person by how they write about a single aspect of their lives on such message board as this without knowing more about their lives. Your wife hates your cross-dressing write about it on Crossdressers.com you went out in your new 40' boat and caught a 400lb marlin you go write about it Sportsfisher.com.

We all hope for better lives but it is up to ourselves to make it better.

[heatherdress]

After watching this thread ramble on and on, I do appreciate Reine's (and a few others') multiple attempts to achieve some harmony and mutual understanding. Unfortunately, this thread seems to be derisive and insulting to many. It is hardly heady or intellectual or inspiring.

A few have hijacked this thread and repeatedly put down crossdressers who have no desire to go public. Honestly, if someone wants to wear women's panties or nighties occasionally, is it really expected that they should proclaim their behavior? Is it realistic or even possible for all crossdressers - to "come out" - as if we are some sort of uniform group? We are such a diverse group that members here should understand and respect our diversity and our differences of opinion and not try to belittle the majority of crossdressers who prefer anonymity.

Personally, it is not a "problem" for me - that I want privacy. It is my right. I also do not feel that any one else speaks for me, as they believe they do, especially someone promoting their own beliefs and agendas which some of us might not agree with. I wish them luck and I do support the common goals and freedoms that are identified in these threads - but I will do so in my own way.

[PaulaQ]

I'm sorry that some of you may feel I've insulted you because you have no desire to come out. Please let me be clear - I understand why you don't want to come out. It is a terrifying prospect to most - it certainly was to me. A person takes a great risk coming out. Some of you would, without question, lose a lot. I know this because I lost a lot when I came out, and many people I know have lost more than I did. My story is here on this forum. You can read it - you can see what I lost. No, my story isn't the worst. Yes, what I went through still hurt a lot. Believe me, I know full well what I am suggesting that some of you do. I've done it. Odds are, many of you would lose less than many trans women lose.

I certainly don't think less of any of you for not wanting to come out. I fully understand your reticence - I deal with people pretty much continuously who have little choice but to come out, yet are terrified to do this. Even when they are in situations where it's extremely likely they will be accepted with relatively few issues, many TSs will hesitate to come out. You are not cowards - I've never used that word in this thread. It is a genuinely terrifying prospect, coming out.

Gays and lesbians are, by the way, a diverse group. For that matter, so are bisexuals and transgender people. These groups band together because there are common goals that help all of them. So I think the notion that the myriad scenarios of crossdressing makes any common goals impossible just isn't true.

As for your right to privacy, that is indeed yours. No one is going to out you. (Although some gays did this to one another in the early days. I feel such tactics are highly unethical, and I could never condone such things.)

I completely get that not everyone is in a position to be some sort of activist, really, rather few are. This is true in all other parts of the LGBT community too. Quietly asserting who you are to at least a few people in your lives could make a difference. It certainly has for gay and lesbian people. And that is really all I'm suggesting - because it has unarguably lead to progress for millions of LGBT people. I'm sort of surprised that so many of you don't see any parallels between their situations and your own. Or perhaps I'm not. I think a lot of you believe you are the cis-normative, hetero-normative people you present as in public. Many of you see yourselves as straight, manly men, no different from other men. Unfortunately, that just isn't the case - if it were the case, you wouldn't feel so compelled to keep this private. I don't mean this to be insulting - I really don't. I'm sure that many of you will find that insulting, though. I am genuinely sorry about that. You aren't like other guys for reasons that really do not matter, in my opinion. Unfortunately, in the minds of many others, your differences DO matter. And that's what coming out does for you - it gives you a chance to define who you are, rather than other people doing it for you. I think many of you see yourselves as very different from other LGBT people - this has been a historic thing with CD groups. I don't think it's a particularly healthy perspective. No, you aren't gay, lesbian, bisexual - and no, you aren't getting a sex-change. But you face stigma, same as they have - and that stigma from others is the unifying thing.

I'm sorry if you find it insulting that I suggest that the world IS leaving you behind because most of you won't do this, but I believe I have laid out a fairly good case that it is. I don't mean for that to be insulting, either. I guess nobody said you had to keep up with other LGBT folks.

BTW, I never said y'all are responsible for trans suicides. But I believe that because very few straight people understand that gender variant people are MUCH more common than they realize (hence all of you...), many trans people are trapped by the same kinds of shame that many of you routinely report. Only in their case, it's fatal. A greater understanding that transgender people of all sorts exist, including crossdressers, would help this situation.

I wish them luck and I do support the common goals and freedoms that are identified in these threads - but I will do so in my own way.

One has to ask - what would you do to support such common goals and freedoms? I ask because historically, a lot of the freedoms CDs enjoy to dress in public, at least for those who choose to do such things, to be accepted in public accommodations, have been largely won by other transgender people, primarily those of us who transition or who are otherwise out. There are a lot more of you than there are trans women and men. A LOT more. Trans causes are typically badly funded, understaffed, and dwarfed in scale by gay and lesbian organizations. So what do you do to help?

I'll leave you with one last thought:

I am not gay. I do not want a sex-change or anything along those lines. I like being a straight guy. I love being your husband.
I don’t rob banks or kill people, nothing criminal. I think I’m pretty normal, except….

Why do you think Jenniferathome had to include the parts about not being gay, and not wanting a sex change? Why are these such common questions that spouses ask? I'll tell you why - because they have no other frame of reference for a gender variant male other than "gay", "drag queen", or "transsexual". And why don't they, as a rule, these women you marry, just chime in "oh, you're just a crossdresser? Well hell, that's no big deal, my uncle Lou(ise) was one!" I'll tell you why that rarely happens, and it's because very few people know y'all exist, or know much about you because y'all aren't out, and aren't sharing your stories. So the only stories your spouses are hearing are those of gay men, drag queens, and transsexuals.

[Zooey]

So, at the risk of being more than a bit inflammatory...

I think it's REALLY interesting to take the response to TS women - one of whom (PaulaQ) is almost certainly the biggest ally you have amongst us, at least here - coming over here to comment on something we know a lot about, and compare it against the language used by CDs when they come into the TS forum and start commenting. It's fascinating to me when people expect us to lump them in with us on important issues (like restroom access) and will go on for days about how we're actually all the same/it's a spectrum/we're just "further along"/blah blah blah, but will then declare incessantly that they're DEFINITELY NOT THE SAME AS US AT ALL and that we're being unfair/unreasonable/etc. by suggesting that they might actually need to participate publicly if they want in on those conversations.

I know that's not everybody here, or even all of the CDs who come into the TS forum, but it's a thing.

[ReineD]

... coming over here to comment on something we know a lot about,

Well, you all know a great deal about transition. But, how much do you understand about people who don't want to transition.

.
and compare it against the language used by CDs when they come into the TS forum and start commenting. It's fascinating to me when people expect us to lump them in with us on important issues (like restroom access) and will go on for days about how we're actually all the same/it's a spectrum/we're just "further along"/blah blah blah, but will then declare incessantly that they're DEFINITELY NOT THE SAME AS US AT ALL and that we're being unfair/unreasonable/etc. by suggesting that they might actually need to participate publicly if they want in on those conversations.

There are lots of levels to the CDing, and then there are people who think they might be or they want to be TS. I dare say that the people who say they don't want to transition or out themselves to everyone are not the same people who post in the TS section that there is no difference between TSs and CDers?

This place is just sooo varied that it's impossible to make sweeping statements.

Seriously, you should just go back to the threads in the TS section you're thinking about, and see if the CDers who posted there, posted something different in this thread? I could be wrong, but it would be a good exercise.

[Zooey]

Well, you all know a great deal about transition. But, how much do you understand about people who don't want to transition.

I think quite a bit, actually. That said, what I was referring to were the consequences of being out, and what it takes to actually build support and respect in the public world.

[ReineD]

But you have transitioned. Aren't you talking about building support and respect as you integrate fully (not part-time) as a woman socially and professionally?

What a lot of people here are saying is, they don't want to integrate fully as women, because they are not women. They may want to present as women sometimes under some circumstances, and present as men at other times under different circumstances.

Those who do present as women sometimes, like my SO, go out and enjoy themselves. People are already respectful. If they disagree with what my SO is doing, they keep their opinions to themselves. At the same time there is no desire to come out at work, because my SO is not interested in working as a female. Nor is my SO interested in coming out to his family of origin. He is not a woman, he enjoys being a male who explores her femininity occasionally.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

I'm not saying that all CDers are like my SO. There may well be a few who want to present as women 100% of the time. But if they do, then honestly are they CDers or are they TS?

So basically, gender presentation does not always correlate with gender identity, especially with people who post the majority of the time in the CD section ... else they'd be posting in the TS section (provided they felt accepted there).

[emma5410]

The original theme of this thread was about CDers being left behind. Gays and lesbians, and now increasingly, TS are becoming accepted. Not everywhere and not by everyone. It is a process. It takes time as it did, and is still doing, for gays and lesbians but it is slowly happening. Even the non binary are making progress. Small and slow though it is.

The CDers still face prejudice and ridicule. That they do is wrong and crazy. How you present and dress should be your business. But as Paula as tried to patiently explain it will never change unless CDers take action.
Do not take action for the sake of the TS. Although greater visibility of CDers would probably help, we are already doing it for ourselves. Take action for the sake of other CDers. Take action to protect yourself if you are ever outed by accident or by a SO. Take action so we can all live in a saner and more accepting world.

That does not mean all of you. Compared to Paula I do very little. But I am living full time and I am very visible. That in itself makes a difference.

I was the first TS patient my GP had ever had. I was the first TS in my company and family. The first TS 99% of the people I came out to had ever met. It was hard (I hope) for them to put me into a little box as a freak, as a potential bathroom rapist, as delusional etc because they already knew me and knew (again I hope) those things were not true. They were forced to deal with me as a friend and as a human being who just happened to be TS. One or two had a problem but the majority were fine and now those seem to have come around as well. I know it is not always that easy but it was easier for me because of those who had gone before and those who are active and visible now. It was easier for me because of the people who had come out quietly before and because of people like Paula who devote so much time and effort to change things now.

I know what it is like to be terrified of coming out. I lived with that fear for decades until the fear of what would happen if I did not transition became greater. Zooey is right. The TS section has a lot of CDers who come on to it complaining about being hidden and not having rights and freedoms. That often spills over into blaming TS for going stealth. The question is where are they in this thread? Why do they never challenge their fellow CDers?

It's easy to get on a soapbox when you have nothing left to lose.

That is very true and a very good point but if more people got on the soapbox now then maybe people like you would not have to worry about losing eveything in the future.

[Zooey]

But you have transitioned. Aren't you talking about building support and respect as you integrate fully (not part-time) as a woman socially and professionally?

What a lot of people here are saying is, they don't want to integrate fully as women, because they are not women. They may want to present as women sometimes under some circumstances, and present as men at other times under different circumstances.

<snip>

So basically, gender presentation does not always correlate with gender identity, especially with people who post the majority of the time in the CD section ... else they'd be posting in the TS section (provided they felt accepted there).

Correct - I'm building support and respect as a full-time woman, which is presumably different from the support and respect that CDs would be interested in building. My point was simply that I know quite a bit about what it's like having to educate people about me, and I know what it's like to have to allow myself to get hurt in the short term in order to work with people in a positive way so that the future is better, both for me and those who might follow in my footsteps in my company/studio.

To Paula's point, I would expect that (based on posts here and people I know) CDs would be working primarily towards increasing social acceptance of variant gender presentation, and I believe the majority of CDs who "go out" (many/most of which are currently still closeted, but taking a risk) would/should take an interest in bathroom access issues. If they want bathroom access though, they're going to have to stand up and be counted. Accurate or not, the image of "straight men in the ladies room" (aka CDs) potentially coming for your wives and daughters is the political right's bogeyman du jour when it comes to legislation that restricts access for transwomen. When PaulaQ talks about throwing CDs under the bus, this is at least part of what she's talking about. I have very mixed feelings about CDs in the ladies room, especially when it comes to fetishistic dressers, but all other things being equal I would ultimately support reasonable access based on presentation (in the absence of available gender neutral facilities) for safety reasons. If push comes to shove though, I would gladly deny CDs access to the ladies room if it meant that all transitioning/transitioned women had reliable access throughout the country.

If nobody here cares then that's fine, but I see enough posts here about related issues that I suspect quite a few people actually do care, whether they're actively testing the limits or not.