Is rejecting/accepting your SO based on your PERCEPTION of the relationship?

[jimb]

no doubt its complicated depending on the individual......as al individuals are.....but.....personally.......i'm a guy that just happens to like womens clothes......i'll always be a guy and have no intentions of being a woman....tho a pair of breasts wouldnt go amiss.....but am quite happy with the tackle lol

[Hippy Chic]

How do you tell what is genuinely Aspergers caused behaviour and what is 'excuse'?

I for one have been frequently accused of using my own disability (Myalgic Encephalomyelitus aka Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) as an excuse by a family member who didn't understand what my illness actually meant (they thought I had it easy sitting around all day and was lazy). Eventually I got a total list of symptoms (in a research article that explained how the symptoms were comparable to those of people going through chemo for a fatal cancer) read it to them and said that if they found one thing I said was caused by my CFS that wasn't on the list I'd give them $1000 and if they accused me again of anything that was on the list they could choose to either pay me $500 or have me risk being bed-bound for a week by smacking them in the face with a piece of firewood.

I got a thorough apology and they stopped accusing me.

As you can tell being repeatedly condemned for something that you are afflicted by is pretty upsetting. I'm not suggesting the situation is that similar but it's potentially very cruel to expect people to be able to transcend their symptoms if such is practically difficult or, in my case, fundamentally impossible.

Hi Batty,

I'll let HCC reply more completely about AS (I'm not going to hi-jack the thread), but I don't make it accusatory, it's about being matter-of-fact (which actually works well with Aspies).

It's more about parenting & hopefully equiping him with what is & isn't acceptable in the big wide world. Yet.

[battybattybats]

I am going to play the devils advocate here. This will not apply to some of you:
We will resent you for trying to come into our world in a male form “pretending” to be a woman.
You haven’t paid your dues into the Club of Women, the lottery failed to award you a vigina at birth. Sure you have lived with your struggle, shame, and desire to be a woman but you will never know or come even close to knowing what it is to be a woman, no more than I, with my background, could ever possible know what it is to be a male. How can you claim to embrace something you are not and never will be? We take exception to you trying to cross the line into our world. We dislike you for getting to call yourself a woman without having known the hardships (physically, biologically, and emotionally). We hate that you got the ‘easy’ pass to being a woman. We are a territorial bunch, but then if you were a woman you’d know that ;-)

You know, maybe we have paid our dues to be women more than some women. A gay friend pointed out to me that gay folk who want to be parents must go to greater lengths whereas many straight folk become parents by drunken accidents so the gay parents have much more earned being parents.
In much the same way TGs of whatever sort face a level of discrimination that the last couple of generations of women have been substantially free of. We have suffered mentally, emotionally and often physically to be women. As a group our dues have been paid with the blood of suicide and murder victims.. thousands of them. Have we paid greater dues than a woman born into that state by accident?

And as for us not knowing what a woman is.. Well for starters we are born with an x chromosome (and please no pseudoscience about intelligence on the x, it's rot. So far there is little evidence that individual intelligence is genetically determined at all). Beyond that we are surrounded by women.. 52% of people in most western countries are female. More importantly, as stated on the Australian tv program Insight during a discussion on a book written about the difference between male and female brains two neuroscientists pointed out that the variance between male and female brains on average was substantially less than the differance between any two men or any two women. They said that biologically, rather than culturally, there is very little differance at all between men and women.

Male or female then is mostly merely a matter of social indoctrination, position and role.

When I see the mental illnesses, the suicides, the hate crime violence, the discrimination etc I do not see an 'easy pass' to being a women. I see human beings trying to express part of themselves that is feared, hated, despised and taboo but who have no choice but to be themselves.

I don't see a victim and a villain here, I see two victims and a villain.. the victims are the TG who has had to suffer to be and to accept who they are because the world has told them it is wrong and the SO who suffers too because the world never told them the fantasy groom they were taught to crave might behave in this way.
The villain? The lies told in childhood social conditioning. The solution? Fighting against the arbitrary oppresive and evil rules of society.

[MJ]

OK first of i take offense to some of this post. i beg to differ, first of all some of us here have been born with a body of a guy and a mind of a woman we may be at the extreme end of the spectrum but we should have been born with a vigina but that did not happen all we want is to be "just one of the girls" " normal " and yes join the club of woman ... so until we cut our dicks off we are not a woman ??

We will resent you for trying to come into our world in a male form “pretending” to be a woman.
You haven’t paid your dues into the Club of Women, the lottery failed to award you a vigina at birth.

trans man / woman go through hell and yes we also start out cross dressing as the opposite sex our true sex , it's tough and sure there are some who can live in both worlds ... you don't have gender issues thats why you can't understand why we do what we do

Sure you have lived with your struggle, shame, and desire to be a woman but you will never know or come even close to knowing what it is to be a woman, no more than I, with my background, could ever possible know what it is to be a male. How can you claim to embrace something you are not and never will be? We take exception to you trying to cross the line into our world. We dislike you for getting to call yourself a woman without having known the hardships (physically, biologically, and emotionally). We hate that you got the ‘easy’ pass to being a woman. We are a territorial bunch, but then if you were a woman you’d know that ;-)

.

there is nothing easy being this way , god if i could give this easy pass away i know most of us would...

in regards to how i deal with relationships i am still not sure so it's better to have none

[Satrana]

. More importantly, as stated on the Australian tv program Insight during a discussion on a book written about the difference between male and female brains two neuroscientists pointed out that the variance between male and female brains on average was substantially less than the difference between any two men or any two women. They said that biologically, rather than culturally, there is very little difference at all between men and women.

Absolutely, numerous studies have shown that the natural differences between men and women are minuscule. Apart from the obvious differences surrounding the sexual roles, all the observed differences between men and women are artificially created through gender conditioning. As such it is more than possible that anyone, no matter what their genetic makeup and what organs lie between their legs, can become a man or a woman and know exactly what that means and feels like. Being a man or a woman is little more than a state of mind and following a detailed set of rules and behavior.

The difficult part is that it is very hard, maybe impossible, to jettison all that you have learned since childhood to switch genders. If you were brought up as one gender as a child, that that experience will define who you are as an adult. But that does not mean that if you do decide to switch genders, your experience is any less real or relevant than that experienced by "genuine" men and women.

We are all trained to believe that the labels male and female mean something beyond the act of procreation. It is becoming increasingly evident that this is not the case, these are just labels for a job description which we are programmed to follow if we want acceptance from others.

[renee99]

all the observed differences between men and women are artificially created through gender conditioning.

So how would a 4 yr old boy who insists he's a girl, prefers to play with girl toys and engage in girl activities, when opposed and discouraged by his parents, fit into this model?

What about the intersex children who were surgically assigned and raised as one sex, and later became transgendered?

No, there's something underlying the parental and societal conditioning, such that even if parents cannot condition it INTO a child, they certainly have failed at finding a way to condition it OUT of a child.

[battybattybats]

Go back centuries and the boy who insists they should be a girl will be wearing blue. Change countries and it will be the kind of skin paint the child wants to wear and the piercing and scars they want when they come of age.

The important thing is the child identifies as being female inside and then will co-opt all the social conditioning intended for females as something that should aply to them.

Another possibility would be that the child finds themselves attracted more to the toys and clothes that are ascribed to girls and will then identify with being female.

Either version still allows for the vast majority of what is feminine to be socially/culturally determined rather than biological. There can still be a biological cause for the child feeling female on the inside but what is inside doesn't determine what clothes, behaviour or social roles are considered male or female.

Just glance at other countries, at history. You'll find a good share of warrior women, men wearing the soft fabrics, pink as a male colour and nodding for no and shaking the head for yes.

[Satrana]

So how would a 4 yr old boy who insists he's a girl, prefers to play with girl toys and engage in girl activities, when opposed and discouraged by his parents, fit into this model?

I am not sure how this affects the point I was making that males and females are indistinct from each other when all gender conditioned behavior is set aside? The fact that a 4 year old boy decides he wants one set of gender conditioning over another means he wants to choose what type of person he will grow up to be ie I want to grow up to be like my mother not my father. All this means is that he has observed the artificial differences society demands of men and women and states his preference and rejects the idea that he does not have a choice.

If we had a gender neutral society where everyone could look and act as they wished, there would be no gender confused 4 year olds in the first place.

The important thing to take away from this observation is that people want to believe that there is more to male and female than just a separate set of genitals. They want to believe men and women are distinct entities, two species which have defined differences. Scientific studies do not support this viewpoint, they are unable to pinpoint any discernible natural difference between the two sexes outside those relating to the physical sexual difference. This should not really be a surprise as we are the same species, the sexes only exist to swap genetic material.

Maleness and femaleness are just intangible labels much like our nationality. People used to believe Europeans, Africans and Asians were distinct species of humans with verifiable differences. Now we know that is rubbish, the observed differences between people of different nationalities are culturally induced. No matter where you are born, you have the same thoughts, feelings and emotions as everyone else. The same is true of gender. The qualities which we have earmarked as masculine or feminine are arbitrary, in reality they exist in both genders equally, differences are individual in nature not by gender.

[Wickanne GG]

It’s been awhile since I have read this thread. I cannot say I disagree with much of what has been stated between my last post and this post.

OP: MJ
OK first of i take offense to some of this post. i beg to differ, first of all some of us here have been born with a body of a guy and a mind of a woman we may be at the extreme end of the spectrum but we should have been born with a vigina but that did not happen all we want is to be "just one of the girls" " normal " and yes join the club of woman ... so until we cut our dicks off we are not a woman ??

You are entitled to take offence but one would hope that you could understand the position of the ‘average’ GG, the ‘average’ GG as a SO. This is the reality of it in today’s world. I cannot say I agree with it, hence, the title of the paragraph, “I am going to play the devils advocate here….” Like it or not, it is the reality of what the ‘average’ GG thinks. All you can really do MJ is move out of an offensive mode [(so until we cut our dicks off we are not a woman ??) Some women would reply…not even then does it make you a woman!] and move into a position that enables you to educate people in a positive light, if one wants change one must be an active participant for that change.

OP: Satrana
There are a million things you could fear about - cheating, ill health, accidents etc all of which are statistically more likely to happen so why the big focus on where he may end up in the CD spectrum. For example 33% of men and women cheat on their spouses. Lets say 0.5% of CDs end up TS. That means your partner is 66 times more likely to cheat on you with another woman than he is to one day inform you he wants the operation.

It has always seemed to me that fears over crossdressing are greatly magnified out of all proportion to their actual occurrence and impact. I would explain this as "normal" threats and worries have already been accounted for in your thinking so an "abnormal" threat sticks out and causes undue fear. Unfortunately this fear often has a negative impact in that many SOs try to limit and prevent the scope and occurrence of crossdressing because they place undue emphasis on the fear of CD partner wanting to actually become a woman.

You are thinking of the opposite extremes. Most GGs don’t get as far as thinking about SRS. (There are people who still don’t know what SRS is. I know, it’s difficult to believe but it’s true.) Call us a narrow-minded bunch, but being a woman, many women cannot imagine a male wanting to be a woman. Most GGs are concerned about the middle of the spectrum, him crossing the line into homosexuality. This is not an ‘abnormal’ threat to the average GG…it is in the realm of “normal” threats.
I understand this crossing of the line to mean he is either bi-curious, bi-sexual, homosexual, or transsexual. (Yes! labels are necessary.) Most women cannot even deal with the bi-curious step and it is their right and their choice not to deal with it. I have read posts on here referring to gay men using dressing as their ‘cover’ for engaging in homosexual activity. I have a thread about the perceptions a CD may have while dressed. Someone I love has crossed that line (bi-curious) and came back. This was prior to use meeting. Whether he stays “straight” or not no one knows, without knowing what is going on inside of his head.

I’ll include part of one quote from a woman here. “…it’s bad enough I have to compete with other women, now I have to complete with men too!” No comment is necessary about the partial quote because you don’t know the rest of the quote and I won’t reveal it. BTW, the issue is resolved.

I find a vast majority of people on this site to be very intelligent and sometimes this may impede communication with the average person in real life. Whether it’s explaining why a line of code has to be inserted into a cnc program or explaining why men like to wear dresses, I have learned that sometimes it is necessary to “dumb it down” a bit to help people digest/understand what I am saying to them.

You and I understand statistics, but I can tell you, with complete certainty, that the average woman doesn’t understand statistics nor does she really give a sh!t about the ‘mean’ when faced with this possibility. The only choices are education and communication. A GG needs all the information to make an educated decision about what is best for her.


Wickanne

[Satrana]

Most GGs don’t get as far as thinking about SRS.

Cannot say I agree with this. The two big questions CDs always face when they tell a woman about crossdressing are : are you gay, do you want a sex change operation. I would say both are equally worrisome for most women.

Most women cannot even deal with the bi-curious step and it is their right and their choice not to deal with it.

Personally I don't see the difference whether your partner cheats with a woman or a man, cheating is cheating period and it shows the relationship is facing serious challenges. I don't see the point in differentiating between them. The other person , whether man or woman, is obviously filling a need that is not being met.

You and I understand statistics, but I can tell you, with complete certainty, that the average woman doesn’t understand statistics nor does she really give a sh!t about the ‘mean’ when faced with this possibility.

My point exactly, highly unlikely situations are given equal or greater focus than much more likely threats such as cheating with another woman or just the relationship falling apart due to lack of commonality, lack of empathy etc. There is a tendency to believe that crossdressing is somehow at the root of all problems in the relationship. Since crossdressing is a "problem he brought to the table", the tendency is also to focus the blame on the CD with the SO overlooking how her attitude and behavior may be contributing to the problem.

It is not fun to live with a partner who becomes paranoid or gives undue concern over a certain behavior of yours and ends up watching and analyzing everything you do looking for signs that your behavior is progressing towards an undesirable end (whether that be engaging in gay sex or having SRS).

[Sheila]

It is not fun to live with a partner who becomes paranoid or gives undue concern over a certain behavior of yours and ends up watching and analyzing everything you do looking for signs that your behavior is progressing towards an undesirable end (whether that be engaging in gay sex or having SRS).

Then you try living with a lying crossdresser (and many of us SO's do).......... you know so many times we as GG's notice more than you males think, then when we ask questions, you turn the suspicions ......(that many many times have a factual basis behind them ....... only you don't know we have them) ........ around and accuse US of paranioa

If you don't want us to apper paranoid then give us
A) credit for not being as stupid as some of you all think,
B) the truth ........especially if we are asking questions around the subject.


I used crossdresser here .......... but it could apply to any relationship and any activity that produces apparent paranioa based on apparent untruths

[Satrana]

Then you try living with a lying crossdresser (and many of us SO's do).......... you know so many times we as GG's notice more than you males think, then when we ask questions, you turn the suspicions ......(that many many times have a factual basis behind them ....... only you don't know we have them) ........ around and accuse US of paranioa

Well if there is a factual basis then that is not paranoia, but if there is no basis, then it is paranoia. If your partner is truthful then a SO's paranoia can be very hurtful. If your partner lies to you all the time then I guess they deserve all the paranoia that would entail.

Question: why would you choose to stay with a lying partner?

[Sheila]

Well if there is a factual basis then that is not paranoia, but if there is no basis, then it is paranoia. If your partner is truthful then a SO's paranoia can be very hurtful. If your partner lies to you all the time then I guess they deserve all the paranoia that would entail.

Question: why would you choose to stay with a lying partner?

because in the beginning you hope that your suspicions are just that, suspicions, and when they prove not to be you continue to work on your relationship hoping that the lies and deciept stop, that you can step forward together into a more stronger relationship, built on truth and trust ........... when the lies and deception continue and for some it does, and when it gets too much, the relationship is ended ........... I know because we seperated on Monday of this week. I love the guy to bits I just can't live with the lies and deception ....... you see we don't always walk out at the first bump, for many the rollercoaster really does get way out of hand

If your partner lies to you all the time then I guess they deserve all the paranoia that would entail.

if they are lying then we are not paranoid are we......... and even if we are paranoid it don't mean they ain't out to get us:D

[Wickanne GG]

Cannot say I agree with this. The two big questions CDs always face when they tell a woman about crossdressing are : are you gay, do you want a sex change operation. I would say both are equally worrisome for most women.

We can agree to disagree on this one. 'Average' GG finds out her man is a CD the most common first question is, "Are you gay?" It takes awhile to get to the SRS question, mostly because it doesn't cross her mind until she reads something about it.

Personally I don't see the difference whether your partner cheats with a woman or a man, cheating is cheating period and it shows the relationship is facing serious challenges. I don't see the point in differentiating between them. The other person , whether man or woman, is obviously filling a need that is not being met.

You assume this is just about already estblished couples? I agree, cheating is cheating. Not too many people will argue that. I am talking about...girl meets boy...boy says, I am a CD...girl says, Cool, [insert time to estabish trust here] have you ever had sex with other men?...boy says, yes...girl says, bye. Because it is her right, regardless of what we think is the right course of action, to decide she doesn't want that in her life...she is free to preceive as she pleases.

My point exactly, highly unlikely situations are given equal or greater focus than much more likely threats such as cheating with another woman or just the relationship falling apart due to lack of commonality, lack of empathy etc. There is a tendency to believe that crossdressing is somehow at the root of all problems in the relationship. Since crossdressing is a "problem he brought to the table", the tendency is also to focus the blame on the CD with the SO overlooking how her attitude and behavior may be contributing to the problem.

A man confronts you in a dark alley...which would be the greater threat, if that man had a knife, if the man had a BB bat, or if he had a handgun? Everyone sees a threat differently...everyone has their reason for the order in which they would place those three threats. "Statistically" the average person will place the handgun as the greater threat, but a "thinker" will place the_______ as the greatest threat. :D I'll let you fill in the blank.

For me, CDing isn't a threat. If "pink fog" becomes an issue. Deal with it and move on, either to-gether or you go your separate ways.

For alot of GGs it is an issue...we can agree on this.

I think even you must admit that there are cases where CD is clearly the root of the problems in a relationship...come on now. Maybe we need to agree to disagree on this one also.

It is not fun to live with a partner who becomes paranoid or gives undue concern over a certain behavior of yours and ends up watching and analyzing everything you do looking for signs that your behavior is progressing towards an undesirable end (whether that be engaging in gay sex or having SRS).

Trust me, I know a couple of people going through this right now and neither are in a very good place as a result of her fears and his insensitivities.


Wickanne

Jess... many to you sweetie.

[Satrana]

I know because we seperated on Monday of this week. I love the guy to bits I just can't live with the lies and deception .......

Very sorry to hear that, lies destroy relationships that is why I asked

and even if we are paranoid it don't mean they ain't out to get us:D

Reminds me of Invasion of the Body Snatchers......don't fall asleep or we CDs will take over the bodies of females.

[BarbaraTalbot]

because in the beginning you hope that your suspicions are just that, suspicions, and when they prove not to be you continue to work on your relationship hoping that the lies and deceit stop, that you can step forward together into a more stronger relationship, built on truth and trust ........... when the lies and deception continue and for some it does, and when it gets too much, the relationship is ended ........... I know because we separated on Monday of this week. I love the guy to bits I just can't live with the lies and deception ....... you see we don't always walk out at the first bump, for many the roller coaster really does get way out of hand

I just want to say to you (and my wife too through this post) that I am sorry for the pain that deception has caused.

I admire your willingness to try repeatedly. I am truly sorry for both of you that this hasn't been something that he was ready to face head-on.

I admire the balance that you struck in your post between being clear about behavior and its consequences so that all might benefit from your experience, without (imo) seeming accusatory, shrill, or defensive about what you needed to do to protect your feelings.

I wish you both well.

[Satrana]

For alot of GGs it is an issue...we can agree on this.

I think even you must admit that there are cases where CD is clearly the root of the problems in a relationship...come on now. Maybe we need to agree to disagree on this one also.

No question about it, often the CD does mess things up. If you check my posts you will see I often criticize CDs for not taking responsibility for their behavior. I am an equal opportunity criticizer:D

My statement was not a dig at SOs, rather it was a psychological analysis that when one partner brings a "problem" the other partner will invariably blame the first partner for any problems that they perceive arising from the "problem". In doing so it is human nature to consider yourself the victim which blinds yourself as to how your own behavior, statements and actions contribute to the problem. And during trying times empathy tends to be thrown out the window which makes helpful communication very difficult to achieve usually resulting in a painful stalemate. This is true for both men and women, it does not matter which brings in the issue because that partner then becomes the PROBLEM.

One of the most important lessons I ever learned was how much another person's behavior and attitude towards you was directly influenced and controlled by your attitude and behavior towards them. It seems an obvious point but few people understand it. It is much easier to write off a person as a jerk when they react unfavorably towards you, however in reality you almost certainly said or did something which provoked them, you just did not realize it.

Typically when a CD reveals his secret it is a very scary and traumatic experience for him, however the SO is usually so lost at sea and traumatized herself that she loses sight how vulnerable the CD is. If she reacts negatively this will result in the CD becoming resentful which in turn feeds back as negativity towards the SO. The two then spiral downwards feeding off each other's negativity, each more determined to prove that they are the real victim and why can't the other see that.

What is needed is sensitivity and empathy from both of them that each is guilty of hurting the other. Both are victims of the stigmatization surrounding men expressing femininity. The CD is directly affected, the SO by association. Both deal with the issue with sexist overtones, CDs having highly stereotyped concepts of what constitutes femininity and SOs unable to let go of their stereotyped concept of what constitutes a man.

[Marcie Sexton]

Call me dumb if you want, but it was way over my head...TMI to a point...

I don't try to phsychoanalize things any more...I just accept things as they are and deal with them...

From my eyes there is much to much of making to much over nothing...but then again that is from my eyes.

[battybattybats]

Why does the 'average' GG that has been outlined here have such a possessive, combative and sexist view of their partners and of their own gender?

From what do these apparently common feelings emerge? Why is the fear of bisexuality so much greater than the more common threat of cheating?

And I've never met anyone who hasn't heard of a sex change, the 'SRS' term perhaps not but 'sex change' most certainly.

[AmberTG]

I must say that this is one of the most interesting, thought provoking, and well written discussions that I've read sense joining this forum! It is also quite distressing to me from a certain point of view, I'll get to this in a bit.
The opening post was very well written and articulated, and everything that has followed has seemed to add to the conversation instead of detracting from it. It is a complex issue, isn't it?
As far as my distress, reading the "devil's advocate" part really hits an exposed weakness in my "armor". I have had this discussion with my therapist on several occasions and, yes, I will never know what it's like to grow up in a woman's world. That, by itself, is depressing. I don't know what it"feels like" to be a woman from the viewpoint of someone who was raised as a woman, I totally lack the proper frame of reference for that thought process. I will always be missing something vital in that process, experience.
I am only one human being, trying to correct a lifetime of conflict and inner turmoil, and may never qualify for that thing that I long for most, to be accepted as a woman, because she lives inside this male body. I may always be excluded from the "girl's club" because of physical characteristics that hide the true person. There is nothing I can do about this except be depressed about it and hope for the best.
This is the part that both "normal" men and women will never understand about transgendered people. They lack the frame of reference to even begin to understand the the way we think and feel, and simply cannot "wrap their minds" around this thought process. Sense "normal" men and women make up the rules, we have very limited options. This is why so many post-ops disappear into the woodwork, simple acceptance.
Actually, this opens a couple of old wounds that I thought were healed.
Honesty in a relationship, that was all I asked for from my ex. It was the one thing I never got.
My depression tended to make me distant from her at times, that explains her affairs, but I don't think it excuses them. She needed attention that I was unable to give her at the time, she found it from others. I guess it turned out for the best for both of us. She got what she wanted and I have the freedom to transition. You know what Janis Joplin said about freedom? "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"
I think I'm done for now.

[Satrana]

Amber

A very touching post. I would to comment on the issue that you are depressed about never being part of the "Girls Club", maybe you should never have this as an aim in the first place. What I mean is, both men and women proceed with their lives mostly blinkered, never seeing or understanding anything past that which preoccupies their lives. They think the rat race is the only way to be and make themselves unhappy chasing imaginary and unattainable goals. Don't set your sights on joining them.

Any group which exists outside the box, and TGs are one such group, are really in a privileged position as they can experience and appreciate life in a way that others never will. Yes it comes with a price tag, it can be painful and lonely not to conform but would you really want the mindless alternative?

If you have watched the Matrix, then do you want to be the human battery plugged in to a fantasy world who simply exists or do you want to experience life unplugged in the harsh but rewarding reality.

Conformity does not bring happiness, self acceptance does. If you can understand that a TG state of being has made you a better person then maybe you will hunger less to conform to normality. Or put it another way, as a woman you have experienced things that GGs never will. Maybe they are more jealous of you.

[AmberTG]

Satrana, that is a very valid point, sometimes I have to remind myself that I am who and what I am and that it's OK to be that way. I guess I just think about the difficulties of being alone and having no one to share my life with. For me, that has not been an easy thing. I don't relate to "normal" men very well, and most women see me as just another guy, so I don't get let into "the circle", leaving me "out in the cold". Friends are nice to have, they enrich one's life.

Here's another comment on the thread in general that seems to have been missed so far. One of the most fundamental differences between men and women, one of the things that make them different in the first place, is the sex hormone in the brain chemistry. This is the primary reason that women are more nurturing and men are more violent. Studies have shown that adding testosterone to the mix, be it male or female, increases aggressiveness and competitive drive.
This has a lot to do with why men and women think differently, on average. When a man says that he doesn't understand women, it's not just conditioning, it's also brain chemistry How can a man think like a woman when there's almost no estrogen in his brain? How can a woman think like a man when there's almost no testosterone in her brain.
Anyone on transgender HRT, be it MTF or FTM, can tell you how their thought patterns have changed. Studies have shown that changing hormones in the brain, over time, will cause certain structural changes in the brain tissue, small changes, but enough to be able to detect them.
The end result of this is; of course men and women don't think the same, their brains are wired differently by the sex hormone present during development from puberty on. This really does not explain the transgender phenomonon though, that is still a mystery.

[Wickanne GG]

Satrana and AmberTG…great dialogue

Why does the 'average' GG that has been outlined here have such a possessive, combative and sexist view of their partners and of their own gender?

35 years (I can remember) of speaking with 1000's of people and I cannot answer that, but I will say this…if those are the adjectives you use when dealing with GGs in real life you may want to have a read or reread of post #42 in this thread, if it's not then don't worry about it.

From what do these apparently common feelings emerge? Why is the fear of bisexuality so much greater than the more common threat of cheating?

I’ll take a guess and say…hmmm, “Male or female then is mostly merely a matter of social indoctrination, position and role.” Sound familiar? I cannot say I disagree with what you stated. There are many articles dealing with why women are more threatened by a SO cheating on her with a same sex person than an opposite sex person. I am in the middle, both are equal…both are cheating.

And I've never met anyone who hasn't heard of a sex change, the 'SRS' term perhaps not but 'sex change' most certainly.

We obliviously travel in different parts of the world :D

#46 Kehleyr
I am going to play the devils advocate here. “This will not apply to some of you:”This thread has taken a slant towards the CDing. The issues I have dealt with are with regard to CDs. When it comes to TS, I am very aware of the “oops” factor at birth.


A GG is in a relationship and her SO decides he wants to wear panties. Hopefully, she can deal with it. Now he decides he needs more, perhaps a dress and high heels. One would hope the GG could deal with it, but not many are able to (generally, due to a lack of communication and social conditioning), but for this text she can deal with it. Moving along the “spectrum”. He now decides he wants the ‘look’ of a female…make-up, wig, nails. At this point some alarm bells are going to start sounding for the GG, but for this text, they work it out. Down the road, his current look isn’t enough and he wants breasts and hair removal. Right now he isn’t looking heterosexual to her, he’s looking more like the sex she is all to familiar with (female) and part of being female is to attract a male mate, but he has not voiced a desire to be with a man so the couple continues on their merry way.

Now we are in the middle of the spectrum, the imaginary line that separates what the GG knows to be heterosexual and everything else. For couples who have lasted this long, this is the point that seems to throw life into chaos (for various reasons) for both the SO and the CD. You have two people in a committed relationship, for this text, he was aware of his desires but suppressed them and never told his SO of his desires prior to the establishment of the relationship…the reason is irrelevant. The more he moves along the spectrum the more he is discovering about himself. He loves her, she loves him, BUT he now thinks there is more to his CDing then simply “looking” the part. He is struggling with the possibility that he wants to be with a man. He asks himself, but how can this be…I have been hetero all my life? So he fantasizes about being a ‘woman’ taken by a man and then beats himself up, emotional, for having such thoughts. He tries to satisfy his urges by spending hours on the Internet watching she-male porn and gay porn and any other kind of porn…living vicariously through others.

In the meantime, GG is standing back watching all this. She may not see it directly but she has an IDEA why he is coming to bed late, why he hits the “escape” key back to reality when she walks in the room, why he is experiencing mood swings, why the chores are not getting done. Most women are highly sensitive to change…blame the cave days when we had to notice change to protect our offspring…so she snoops. Why does the browser history show visits to pages with strap-ons, and other ‘kink’? Why he is hiding/deleting his IM history? She knows something is wrong because the communication has broken down. The CD assumes if the GG finds out she will leave him and decides not to tell her (he tells himself…what can it hurt? It’s probably just a phase I am going through. If he really believed it to be a phase then why wouldn’t he tell her? Let’s assume he is too embarrassed.) in effect canceling communication and removing her choice to make her own decisions.

Where is she going to learn about the issue if he won’t communicate with her? She has no choice but to think the worst because he won’t tell her any different. (Human nature to think negative when something appears ‘wrong’.) It is damaging to a GG to think her man wants to be with another man, likely a man is the last person she will think he is actually messing around with on the Internet. At this point, she may think it is a woman he is “emotional cheating” with, but in the back of her mind is the little voice she keeps trying to silence that says, it could be a another man because of the way he looks dressed.

Drama, lies, cheating and lack of effective communication are now taking over their lives. What is he going to do, he finds himself attracted to other men, but he is in a committed relationship and he loves his SO? The day finally arrives and he announces that he wants to explore his feelings regarding men. GGs jaw will hit the floor. Some GGs think bi-curious means “gay”…most of us understand the assumption to be a simple lack of education/knowledge. The average GG, being someone with little or no exposure to gender “issues” is not going to respond well. For the last few [insert your own duration], every time she asked the CD what was wrong his replies were, nothing, mind your business, this doesn’t concern you, I’m just going through a phase, stop pestering me.... Now she is expected to respond with, Okay, go fk or be fk by a guy, see what you think about it and let me know! Dream on CD dream on.

Using a quote from post 46, “…[but I don't think someone can flip a switch and convert back and forth between man and woman] (although that may not be a popular opinion in this forum). I do believe that some people are "genderqueer" or a "third sex", but that's a different case altogether.”

You are a TS woman and you don’t think it is possible. Damn, imagine an ‘average’ GG trying to wrap her head around it. In her mind, it isn’t about being bi-curious…she has already determined that he is gay because how is it possible for someone to flip back and forth between ‘gay’ and ‘hetero’ Let’s not forget, he’s had a few [duration] to try and figure it out while he was telling her to piss off, but now he expects her to just accept that he wants to be with a man. The perceived threat has now become the “other” man.

Placed in order of probability…(most probable)-What are the odds he is bi-curious? What are the odds he is bi-sexual. What are the odds he is discovering repressed homosexuality? What are the odds he is, after all is said and discovered, actually a TS? (least probable)-What are the odds he will transition?

It is one in a million GGs who will wait out the storm. They will not wait around to find out what he is, even if there is a stellar performance in the communication department. She perceives that he is not the man she original committed to. Some of you will argue that he is still the same man. If he is discovering parts of his being/personality he has repressed and is now expressing them then he has changed. (The extremes, hyper masculine to hyper feminine.) He is not the same person emotionally and/or physically. Just go read the threads about men discovering their femme side, how they have changed the way they feel (discovered empathy) or how they communicate with GGs.

A GG may perceive a pair of panties as a threat and end the relationship. Some may hang in there until the question of homosexual activity comes up (if it comes up), she will perceive the “other” man as the threat, and end the relationship. We all, both men and women, have limits. The rare GG will wait to see what happens after he crosses the imaginary line between what she perceives as heterosexual activities (If she has come this far clothing isn’t the issue…sexual activity and preferences are.) and what she perceives as homosexual activities. Sue us for it, but it’s just the way were are ‘wired’. (<< Good point Amber, I see we agree :-) But the opposite can also be true. Some GGs may end a relationship because he won’t wear panties or take on the ‘look’ of a female.

Let us all take a moment to bask in the glory of individuality….ohmmmmm…lol ;-)

So, the moral of the story is. It’s about communication and finding what ‘fits’ into your realm of possibilities. The crap happens when couples are mismatch, lack effective communication skills, and control becomes an issue because neither can come to grips with the fact that the only person you really have any control over is yourself.

This is only one example of a million possible scenarios composed from hundreds of conversation, so let’s not waste time nitpick the scenario.


Wickanne

[MJ]

You are entitled to take offence but one would hope that you could understand the position of the ‘average’ GG, the ‘average’ GG as a SO. This is the reality of it in today’s world. I cannot say I agree with it, hence, the title of the paragraph, “I am going to play the devils advocate here….” Like it or not, it is the reality of what the ‘average’ GG thinks. All you can really do MJ is move out of an offensive mode [(so until we cut our dicks off we are not a woman ??) Some women would reply…not even then does it make you a woman!] and move into a position that enables you to educate people in a positive light, if one wants change one must be an active participant for that change.

Wickanne

We will resent you for trying to come into our world in a male form “pretending” to be a woman.
You haven’t paid your dues into the Club of Women, the lottery failed to award you a vigina at birth.

sorry but that hurts

please i don't mean to offend anyone this is how i feel

that hurts real bad again it's better to have a gun to our head and end it all than go through the hell we do and yes so some woman don't like what we have become ..
how do we pay our dues so we can get in to the club of woman ???
what do i have to do to get in !!! psychologist will tell you i was never a guy !!! there for were does that leave me ?
it seams that in this world the are people who get who and what we are and then there are the people who don't ..
i understand we need to change attitudes and be positive but the question is how ? Thank You

[Wickanne GG]

sorry but that hurts

please i don't mean to offend anyone this is how i feel

that hurts real bad again it's better to have a gun to our head and end it all than go through the hell we do and yes so some woman don't like what we have become ..
how do we pay our dues so we can get in to the club of woman ???
what do i have to do to get in !!! psychologist will tell you i was never a guy !!! there for were does that leave me ?
it seams that in this world the are people who get who and what we are and then there are the people who don't ..
i understand we need to change attitudes and be positive but the question is how ? Thank You

MJ, I understand your feelings. I would be hurt too. These are things women say to me. I can try to change how they think, but it really means nothing coming from me. We agree, some people will NEVER understand your feelings.

I wish I had the magic answer for how to change attitudes. Mostly, it's like anything else that gets changed...a heck of a lot of positive communication and effective education.


Wickanne