Why does the 'average' GG that has been outlined here have such a possessive, combative and sexist view of their partners and of their own gender?
From what do these apparently common feelings emerge? Why is the fear of bisexuality so much greater than the more common threat of cheating?
And I've never met anyone who hasn't heard of a sex change, the 'SRS' term perhaps not but 'sex change' most certainly.
Satrana and AmberTG…great dialogue
35 years (I can remember) of speaking with 1000's of people and I cannot answer that, but I will say this…if those are the adjectives you use when dealing with GGs in real life you may want to have a read or reread of post #42 in this thread, if it's not then don't worry about it.Originally Posted by battybattybats
I’ll take a guess and say…hmmm, “Male or female then is mostly merely a matter of social indoctrination, position and role.” Sound familiar? I cannot say I disagree with what you stated. There are many articles dealing with why women are more threatened by a SO cheating on her with a same sex person than an opposite sex person. I am in the middle, both are equal…both are cheating.From what do these apparently common feelings emerge? Why is the fear of bisexuality so much greater than the more common threat of cheating?
We obliviously travel in different parts of the world :DAnd I've never met anyone who hasn't heard of a sex change, the 'SRS' term perhaps not but 'sex change' most certainly.
#46 Kehleyr
I am going to play the devils advocate here. “This will not apply to some of you:”This thread has taken a slant towards the CDing. The issues I have dealt with are with regard to CDs. When it comes to TS, I am very aware of the “oops” factor at birth.
A GG is in a relationship and her SO decides he wants to wear panties. Hopefully, she can deal with it. Now he decides he needs more, perhaps a dress and high heels. One would hope the GG could deal with it, but not many are able to (generally, due to a lack of communication and social conditioning), but for this text she can deal with it. Moving along the “spectrum”. He now decides he wants the ‘look’ of a female…make-up, wig, nails. At this point some alarm bells are going to start sounding for the GG, but for this text, they work it out. Down the road, his current look isn’t enough and he wants breasts and hair removal. Right now he isn’t looking heterosexual to her, he’s looking more like the sex she is all to familiar with (female) and part of being female is to attract a male mate, but he has not voiced a desire to be with a man so the couple continues on their merry way.
Now we are in the middle of the spectrum, the imaginary line that separates what the GG knows to be heterosexual and everything else. For couples who have lasted this long, this is the point that seems to throw life into chaos (for various reasons) for both the SO and the CD. You have two people in a committed relationship, for this text, he was aware of his desires but suppressed them and never told his SO of his desires prior to the establishment of the relationship…the reason is irrelevant. The more he moves along the spectrum the more he is discovering about himself. He loves her, she loves him, BUT he now thinks there is more to his CDing then simply “looking” the part. He is struggling with the possibility that he wants to be with a man. He asks himself, but how can this be…I have been hetero all my life? So he fantasizes about being a ‘woman’ taken by a man and then beats himself up, emotional, for having such thoughts. He tries to satisfy his urges by spending hours on the Internet watching she-male porn and gay porn and any other kind of porn…living vicariously through others.
In the meantime, GG is standing back watching all this. She may not see it directly but she has an IDEA why he is coming to bed late, why he hits the “escape” key back to reality when she walks in the room, why he is experiencing mood swings, why the chores are not getting done. Most women are highly sensitive to change…blame the cave days when we had to notice change to protect our offspring…so she snoops. Why does the browser history show visits to pages with strap-ons, and other ‘kink’? Why he is hiding/deleting his IM history? She knows something is wrong because the communication has broken down. The CD assumes if the GG finds out she will leave him and decides not to tell her (he tells himself…what can it hurt? It’s probably just a phase I am going through. If he really believed it to be a phase then why wouldn’t he tell her? Let’s assume he is too embarrassed.) in effect canceling communication and removing her choice to make her own decisions.
Where is she going to learn about the issue if he won’t communicate with her? She has no choice but to think the worst because he won’t tell her any different. (Human nature to think negative when something appears ‘wrong’.) It is damaging to a GG to think her man wants to be with another man, likely a man is the last person she will think he is actually messing around with on the Internet. At this point, she may think it is a woman he is “emotional cheating” with, but in the back of her mind is the little voice she keeps trying to silence that says, it could be a another man because of the way he looks dressed.
Drama, lies, cheating and lack of effective communication are now taking over their lives. What is he going to do, he finds himself attracted to other men, but he is in a committed relationship and he loves his SO? The day finally arrives and he announces that he wants to explore his feelings regarding men. GGs jaw will hit the floor. Some GGs think bi-curious means “gay”…most of us understand the assumption to be a simple lack of education/knowledge. The average GG, being someone with little or no exposure to gender “issues” is not going to respond well. For the last few [insert your own duration], every time she asked the CD what was wrong his replies were, nothing, mind your business, this doesn’t concern you, I’m just going through a phase, stop pestering me.... Now she is expected to respond with, Okay, go fk or be fk by a guy, see what you think about it and let me know! Dream on CD dream on.
Using a quote from post 46, “…[but I don't think someone can flip a switch and convert back and forth between man and woman] (although that may not be a popular opinion in this forum). I do believe that some people are "genderqueer" or a "third sex", but that's a different case altogether.”
You are a TS woman and you don’t think it is possible. Damn, imagine an ‘average’ GG trying to wrap her head around it. In her mind, it isn’t about being bi-curious…she has already determined that he is gay because how is it possible for someone to flip back and forth between ‘gay’ and ‘hetero’ Let’s not forget, he’s had a few [duration] to try and figure it out while he was telling her to piss off, but now he expects her to just accept that he wants to be with a man. The perceived threat has now become the “other” man.
Placed in order of probability…(most probable)-What are the odds he is bi-curious? What are the odds he is bi-sexual. What are the odds he is discovering repressed homosexuality? What are the odds he is, after all is said and discovered, actually a TS? (least probable)-What are the odds he will transition?
It is one in a million GGs who will wait out the storm. They will not wait around to find out what he is, even if there is a stellar performance in the communication department. She perceives that he is not the man she original committed to. Some of you will argue that he is still the same man. If he is discovering parts of his being/personality he has repressed and is now expressing them then he has changed. (The extremes, hyper masculine to hyper feminine.) He is not the same person emotionally and/or physically. Just go read the threads about men discovering their femme side, how they have changed the way they feel (discovered empathy) or how they communicate with GGs.
A GG may perceive a pair of panties as a threat and end the relationship. Some may hang in there until the question of homosexual activity comes up (if it comes up), she will perceive the “other” man as the threat, and end the relationship. We all, both men and women, have limits. The rare GG will wait to see what happens after he crosses the imaginary line between what she perceives as heterosexual activities (If she has come this far clothing isn’t the issue…sexual activity and preferences are.) and what she perceives as homosexual activities. Sue us for it, but it’s just the way were are ‘wired’. (<< Good point Amber, I see we agree :-) But the opposite can also be true. Some GGs may end a relationship because he won’t wear panties or take on the ‘look’ of a female.
Let us all take a moment to bask in the glory of individuality….ohmmmmm…lol ;-)
So, the moral of the story is. It’s about communication and finding what ‘fits’ into your realm of possibilities. The crap happens when couples are mismatch, lack effective communication skills, and control becomes an issue because neither can come to grips with the fact that the only person you really have any control over is yourself.
This is only one example of a million possible scenarios composed from hundreds of conversation, so let’s not waste time nitpick the scenario.
Wickanne
Wickanne GG said:If a GG I am talking to makes a sexist comment or disparages a group of other women I point it out. Thus far though that has not been a problem for me. Virtually all of them are still friends and the one exception ceased to be over something else (and the rest of my circle stopped talking to her too). Of course the small smile and the tone of voice that I say these things with end up missing in text form.35 years (I can remember) of speaking with 1000's of people and I cannot answer that, but I will say this…if those are the adjectives you use when dealing with GGs in real life you may want to have a read or reread of post #42 in this thread, if it's not then don't worry about it.
AmberTG said:I am only one human being, trying to correct a lifetime of conflict and inner turmoil, and may never qualify for that thing that I long for most, to be accepted as a woman, because she lives inside this male body. I may always be excluded from the "girl's club" because of physical characteristics that hide the true person. There is nothing I can do about this except be depressed about it and hope for the best.
This is the part that both "normal" men and women will never understand about transgendered people. They lack the frame of reference to even begin to understand the the way we think and feel, and simply cannot "wrap their minds" around this thought process. Sense "normal" men and women make up the rules, we have very limited options. This is why so many post-ops disappear into the woodwork, simple acceptance.
Actually, this opens a couple of old wounds that I thought were healed.
It's posts like yours that remind me how deeply and vitally true it is that acceptance of differance diversity and freedom of expression is a moral and ethical obligation. It's true that the greater the differance and the closer the relationship with the person is the harder that acceptance is to hold and yes, people have the freedom to choose to do immoral, unethical and wrong things but those things are no less wrong. No less evil.
MJ said:sorry but that hurts
please i don't mean to offend anyone this is how i feel
that hurts real bad again it's better to have a gun to our head and end it all than go through the hell we do and yes so some woman don't like what we have become ..
how do we pay our dues so we can get in to the club of woman ???
what do i have to do to get in !!! psychologist will tell you i was never a guy !!! there for were does that leave me ?
it seams that in this world the are people who get who and what we are and then there are the people who don't ..
i understand we need to change attitudes and be positive but the question is how ? Thank You
Bigoted statements always do hurt, even when they are reportings of the views of others.
Bigotry is an extention of ignorance and/or fear.
Willfull ignorance, where someone refuses by choice to consider or accept new evidence whether because they have attached too much emotion to prior beliefs, had them become deeply ingrained to the point where it's become reflexive and they are too lazy to root them out or for whatever other reason is just totally and absolutely unacceptable. It is a betrayel of thought, of reality, of truth.
Everyone exists in a state of ignorance about many things, people pick up unconciously biased and bigoted views of all sorts of subjects, on race, religion, the sexes, sexuality. We all have to be prepared to examine ourselves for these biases, to learn more about the things we dislike, fear or look down upon, to challenge the views we hold rather than blindly defending and rationalising them. Not to do so is to do wrong just as racists who stay being racists do wrong, chauvenists who remain chauvenists do wrong, homophobes who remain homophobic do wrong.
Being human, doing the right thing, is hard. Let us all try to be patient with each other and to reach out, not just to fellow human beings in similar situations to ourselves but also to the ones we most dissagree with, that we most hate, that we most fear and that hurt us the most. Not as placation but from genuine sympathy with the ignorance and struggle that they too live within.
Wickanne, I can see that you've had a lot of time to think about this in depth! I believe your analysis holds up pretty well for most situations, and not just for CDing, I can think of a number of issues between spouses that this would apply to. The CDing issue just happens to be a particularly difficult issue for many people, it really is a matter of preference and perception. If a woman, or man, for that matter, really just can't handle something the spouse does, or is, for whatever reason, it will cause a breakdown of the marital relationship.
I can't speak for the CDers but, as a TG person, we just have to accept the possibility that it will end the relationship with a spouse. It seems to come with the territory, unfortunately. It's certainly not the way I would prefer it, but the only person I have any control over at all is myself. My ex left me because she wanted a relationship with a "real" man and, lets face it, I'm not. I don't really know what I am, but I do know what I'm not.
I must say, again, that this is the most in-depth discussion that I have personally seen on this website. It's really been food for thought for me.
Last edited by AmberTG; 09-08-2007 at 12:56 AM.
"I see your true colors shining through, your true colors, and that's why I love you,
so don't be afraid to let them show, your true colors, true colors are beautiful, like a rainbow"
"Without change,something sleeps deep inside us, and seldom awakens. The sleeper must awaken!"[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I am glad we all can feed each others brains....no 'silence of the lambs' jokes please :D
Wickanne
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