Debunking: "I like women's clothes"

When I crossdress, its because I want to feel more like a woman. not ony does the feel or appearance of the clothing make me look prettier when I am dressed. It gives me a sense of completeness. I feel like I am a whole person when I present female.
I told my wife that I was a crossdresser three and a half years ago and at that time I said that I was only a crossdresser. I had finally accepted that I could not change this about me, Afterall I never dressed all the time, but I did underdress all the time. Because it ade me feel good about myself as a person.

Now three and a half years later, I have learned more about myself and accepted that it is ok to admit that I want to be a woman, Its not just the clothing but it is actually the feeling of being a whole individual person that I want and enjoy, Being able to relate to other women is a wonderful feeling that I have only recently been able to have and I love it.

So its not anything to how the clothing feels, but its about how they make me feel about myself, the silk is just a bonus :)

I realize and accept that on the spectrum of male-to-female gender I am somewhere up towards the "middle" between the two poles. I've come to realize that dressing serves as a mental key that unlocks a door into the place where I can be more fully conscious of my true gender. When I have to get back in drab I feel the door trying to close behind me.

Honestly, I'm tired of looking for deeper meaning into why I crossdress. Sure, it can be a means to an end and that in and of itself is pleasurable, but why then do I continue to dress or find it pleasurable in the first place? Why do I spend many days dressed without the pressure of the big "O"? I simply enjoy dressing and acting feminine and have learned to accept it. Would I continue to do it if it also came with the burdens of truly being a woman. Absolutely. Do I dislike being a guy? Nope, I can enjoy dressing in a suit and tie almost as much (but without any fetish overtones).

Id est, quid id est - It is what it is.

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Originally Posted by genevie

At it's most basic: Part of me wants to be a girl. Its not all of me. I don't want to transition. That part gets to express itself when I dress. At that time I could cry for the relief and rightness of it. I don't think some of us are born all one sex. Lucky for us or unlucky for us. The expression of the betweeners is not as easy in our society. But if we are lucky, we might find likeminded folks who we can share our thoughts.

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I think a great many of us feel this way - I know I do .... the clothes take me to a different place -- and it's so comforting...................Debra

Hi Reine, All I know is it's who I am and it's what I do,
Seeing a pretty lady looking back at me in the mirror is fantastic.
The fascination of having breasts and wearing heels is awesome for me.
It could be a fulfillment of the feeling of something missing in my life.

I took the notion to dress enfemme all day yesterday because it felt right to me.
No deep seated reason for it that I can think of.

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Originally Posted by outhiking

Honestly, I'm tired of looking for deeper meaning into why I crossdress.

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Originally Posted by ClosetED

Many don't want to look deeply into why. They enjoy it and don't want to overanalyze themseleves. But others do and this forum is a place where people can offer their thoughts to see who has good arguements for or against the suggestion.

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For me personally it's important to have an answer. In recent times when I've come out to so many people, some of them have asked the big "WHY?". It's helpful to give them such answers as we can, while at the same time conceding that we don't yet have any definitive answers. "That's just the way it is" or "I just like it" gets us nowhere with such people.

One drawback of not being able to give an answer is that it allows trans-haters to draw their own conclusions, which they're never reluctant to do. We're just perverts, we're confused people in need of medication, etc.

Some type of answer, even if it's seriously incomplete, will help reflective cispeople to understand and sympathize with us. We'll never satisfy the trans-haters, but there are plenty of potential allies out there that we could win over. If I want people to take me seriously, I have to show them that I'm taking myself seriously.

Annabelle

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?

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I surely can't. I guess I just have never thought about it that deeply and though I have for about an hour now, I am still coming up blank :(

When this all started for me a short time ago, I came out to my wife. Not as someone who wears women's clothing, but as a crossdresser. Are they the same? I don't know, but at the time it was significant to me. After she stopped laughing and then crying, the WHY questions came in droves. I have been pondering the why because it is all so new to me and continually changing.

At the time I started, I got an immediate peace about me. My wife even remarked that there was a change in my behavior, which she approved of. I now know that I am dressing for the woman inside who was unknowingly denied simple recognition for some 65 years. I don't need to see myself to have my peace, but if i do have to see me, I want it to match what I feel.

I am taking care of my inner peace separately now without as many clothing fixes, and am less reliant of dressing full femme as I realize that an old woman doesnt need a lot of "add ons" to make the male blend with an older woman, sad, but true. So I am feeling more femme every day and am matching my outer and inner persona.

Simply, dressing gave my my inner peace, and began an entirely different twist in my life.

Barbara

Ambergold, you make interesting points. You list the problems that women face and deny the "inner female," and go on to say that crossdressing is a way for us to escape the problems that men face. But I'm afraid that while you were listing the negative social implications of being female and the responsibility of power and privilege of being male, you have forgotten the virtues of femininity. Women may not (generally) have the physical "power" that males have (an overrated thing) but in their softer frames exists a subtle and mysterious power which is greater and more beautiful than the brutish muscle of a macho man. Femininity involves such things as empathy, nurturing, healing, grace, and all manner of such things which should be regarded as general virtues rather than signs of weakness. Females have as much responsibility as men do. As for social privileges and expectations, that is only a social construction which, while having real implications, has no inherent truth or cosmic validity. The social inferiority of women (which is in decline) has nothing to do with the inherent qualities of femininity, but rather the witless thinking of men through the ages.

The inner female may not be present in you, but would you deny the reality of the trans community? Are all transwomen simply looking to divest themselves of male responsibilities? In truth, they take on more hardship than any other man could ever know (that is, those who pursue transition). Gender is not black and white, but a fluid spectrum. Many great men through history have exhibited traditionally female traits, and vice versa. Think of gentle St. Francis giving a sermon to a flock of birds, or Buddha renouncing a life of wealth and war for a nonviolent existence of teaching and meditation. Conversely, think of Joan of Arc wielding a sword or Annie Oakley outshooting her male counterparts. We can choose to reject social convention (as crossdressers we do this anyway). Many of us wishing to express the inner female by whatever methods and those of us who wish we were born female would gladly take all the social discrimination, menstruation, and all other unpleasant things that come with being a woman in order to have the experience of womanhood in its beautiful and glorious entirety.

As for Reine's original question, I too am confused by the simple answers like "I just enjoy the clothes." I don't necessarily question it. If someone tells me such a simple reason, I accept that. Maybe it is that simple for them, but as always I can only speak from my own experience, which goes much deeper. Neither the simple or deeper reasons are more valid than the other, and I wish society could move forward and accept people in whatever clothes they choose to wear. If it never happens, then I will wear the clothing I want anyway, if only around the house.

[SIZE="3"]To paraphrase JP Morgan, "people have two reasons for doing the things they do: the good reason and the real reason." I've spent a lot of years searching for my real crossdressing reason and I, for now, have to say it is: "I just don't know." And, based on the answers I read here and elsewhere on the net no one else has the real (root) answer either (other than maybe the Harry Benjamin folks if you believe their narrative).

But of course, nature abhors a vacuum so when asked, we just keep supplying the good reasons we've come up with and more often than expected, as ReineD rightly points out, the not-so-good reasons.

I don't hear ReineD saying that "I don't know" is not a good or real answer, I hear her saying that, with all the knowledge we have today, a superficial reason (and I would say dumb reason) is not a good reason.

But dumb answers to real issues abound outside the world of crossdressing too.


PS I am a big fan of the Myers-Briggs personality profile too but it in no way is a indicator of gender. To suggest so is to fundamentally misunderstand what it is about.



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Originally Posted by Tracii G

Starts a topic the never responds not sure why the op'er posted it.
Seems she has a problem taking an answer at face value for what it is.
No one answer is the same for everyone.

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Perhaps she is busy and/or allowing as many as like to respond to develop some opinion and respond intelligently. I think you have to give Reine the benefit of the doubt.

Although I'm probably as guilty as anyone here for denying simple answers as correct, there are a lot of people who will fall apart if we push them too hard, and be forced to accept the reality of why they crossdress. We're brought up brainwashed by our parents and society to believe certain things; and our entire reality is based on our beliefs. One of those, is that we are men, and that as a man, it's only appropriate for us to behave in a certain way. A second, is that for a man to be anything feminine is such a horrible thing, that a man who does so should be very, very ashamed of it, even punished for it; even certain religions promote that to the point where men should be put to death because of it. Is there really any doubt that there is a whole lot of psychological trauma to be done by forcing those men into facing reality? Most of them are at a functional level; if you force them to stop believing what they've based their whole life on, they might have to be institutionalized. Not everyone can handle having their whole life put into question, resulting in not having any solid facts to base it on. Reine, some people simply are basically followers, and not able to think abstractly for themselves. They only know what they are told, and live their whole life based on that. If you 'throw a wrench' into their beliefs and tear them apart, you risk destroying everything they have, because often, they don't even have the ability to separate what's good and bad on their own.
An obvious incapacity to do this is, when you read the forums here, the frequent references to 'the woman inside me', or men referring to themselves in third person to distance themselves from it, such as 'my neighbor saw Alexandra today' as if they were referring to someone else instead of themselves. They simply cannot accept that it is themselves who is the female person referred to, because we've been brought up to believe it's such a horrible and completely unacceptable thing.

O.K., lets start.
Stress relief. Based on the concept that either 1. the stress is being caused by NOT dressing as a woman, or 2. we need to escape reality by being able to pretend we are someone or something else, in this case, a woman who is not the person in our 'male persons' stressful predicament. Or, both. The common statement that the desire to dress up as a woman gradually becomes so strong that it feels overwhelmeing, kind of indicates reason #1, but it can also combine with #2 when both are occuring at the same time, because it takes a certain amount of brain power to resist doing something that we feel we really need to do. But it begs the question again of why we feel the need to dress as a woman and/or behave as one. And that isn't something that a lot of 'just crossdressers' want to, or are able to, face even to themselves.

Likes the look of the clothing. Perhaps that person wants to be punished for being different, by facing ridicule from much of society. You would have to figure out why that person feels guilty about something. Or, they simply want to fantasize about being an attractive, beautiful person; why it has to be a female person, you'd have to investigate further, but for many of us who grew up being ignored romantically and got turned down by lots of potential lovers because we weren't good looking enough, the desire to be attractive is always there.

Likes the feel of the material. Again, in denial; there are plenty of men's clothes made of luxurious cloth.

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Originally Posted by Wildaboutheels
You can stop most men from CDing by taking away their mirrors and/or their cameras.

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This one is of course written from only one person's point of view, assuming that most other men who crossdress probably feel the same as himself. I don't take pictures of myself, and avoid mirrors when dressed. Although there are some crossdressers who do enjoy those activities, there are plenty of those who do not. I wonder how much of the pictures and mirrors concept is also based on the belief that GG's spend a lot of time in front of mirrors admiring themselves, and love having pictures of themselves taken (the last of which seems untrue; most women seem to avoid cameras like the plague).

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mfakely wrote, while quoting Frederique, : Women's clothes celebrate the wearer's form, while men's clothes don't ... more than don't ... one might say the actively go in the opposite direction except in very rare edge cases.

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I think the word 'celebrate' is the wrong one to use. Reveal is more correct, as women's clothing shows their figure, making it obvious that she is female and of notice to be available for mating, marriage not withstanding. Women's clothing attracts heterosexual, sexually active males to her. A simple mechanism in which to increase offspring and continue her line of DNA.

Then Cass wrote this:

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An even simpler explanation is that to me, women have it better in everything--they get to express their gender without reprisal, they get to be emotional without judgement, they are pampered and cared for, they are into dialog instead of competition (typically), they get to be taken sexually, their sexuality is more holistic than focused, they are softer. The list goes on and on.

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This is a common belief of a lot of men; just one of the 'grass is always greener on the other side of the fence' things. Either the man really believes it, or uses the argument to support why he feels envious of being a woman as a valid reason for his crossdressing/TG/TS condition. Of course it's not true, but when searching for a simple reason to enable them to avoid facing their underlying one, it seems lots of men use it. But it's not true; they simply don't want to face reality.

For me, as I do not try to seek the definitive answer to something that is so obviously so hard to truly define, I enjoy playing that female role with my own personality when out on the real world. My goal and true enjoyment with all this is being out there interacting with others to satisfy my need for social (conversational) interactions with others. I am like that in male mode and probably more so in female mode. Secondary to that is that I also like to shop and find those rare treasures at thrift stories or on sale in better known stores. I like the variation of styles that I can experiment with as I create outfits out of various individual elements.

I read here all the time about our many members who need to know why. Yes, it would be nice to know exactly why, but seeing all that angst, confusion, frustrations and pain in trying to define that "why", I have long decided instead to focus on the fact that I want to do it for whatever reason, it is legal and hurts no one, so why not enjoy it, and that is exactly what I do.

Actually, what she's saying makes a great deal of sense. When anyone makes an investment into an outfit/fashion/etc. of any kind, even those who display no unconventional behaviors whatsoever, they are using that outfit/fashion/etc. to project something -- so, I'd say that, if there is ANY social element to the crossdressing, it has to involve some sort of symbolism (human beings are creatures of intent, much like Reine said). However, I believe someone could be comforted by wearing women's clothes privately if they had subconsciously attached some sort of meaning to it, and I suppose it's up to them to decide whether they're to determine what that meaning is or not, but anyone who likes anything likes it for a reason which may or may not be deep-seated. That's an inevitable element of human existence.

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Originally Posted by GroovyChristy

Ambergold, you make interesting points. You list the problems that women face and deny the "inner female," and go on to say that crossdressing is a way for us to escape the problems that men face. But I'm afraid that while you were listing the negative social implications of being female and the responsibility of power and privilege of being male, you have forgotten the virtues of femininity.

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I believe that within each person exists a range of emotions. Men and women each feel these same emotions, but it is culture that determines which of these are "appropriate" to express. The expression of these emotions are generally encouraged to be expressed along binary lines (men = hard and pragmatic & women = "soft" & "nurturing"). This is the foundation for gender, which is essentially just rules for behavior that are culturally dictated for men and women. All we have when we are born is our body, the rest is culturally determined. So I would argue that virtues of femininity aren't real but are culturally constructed ideals.

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Originally Posted by GroovyChristy

Women may not (generally) have the physical "power" that males have (an overrated thing) but in their softer frames exists a subtle and mysterious power which is greater and more beautiful than the brutish muscle of a macho man. Femininity involves such things as empathy, nurturing, healing, grace, and all manner of such things which should be regarded as general virtues rather than signs of weakness. Females have as much responsibility as men do. As for social privileges and expectations, that is only a social construction which, while having real implications, has no inherent truth or cosmic validity. The social inferiority of women (which is in decline) has nothing to do with the inherent qualities of femininity, but rather the witless thinking of men through the ages.

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Women, as a gender, have neither the power nor the privilege that men do in our society. If they did, there would be no women's movement or feminist movements. Women are not paid as much as men for the same work, their bodies are not respected politically in the same way that men's are... that is to say, their bodies and sexuality are political, and there are many more examples I could list. I am not using the term "power" to imply physical power (There are many women who could kick my butt for sure), I'm talking about social power and privilege, a very real thing.

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Originally Posted by GroovyChristy

The inner female may not be present in you, but would you deny the reality of the trans community? Are all transwomen simply looking to divest themselves of male responsibilities? In truth, they take on more hardship than any other man could ever know (that is, those who pursue transition). Gender is not black and white, but a fluid spectrum.

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I don't deny the reality of the trans-community, and I don't claim to understand the unimaginable hardships associated with being a transsexual person. However, gender IS a fluid spectrum as you say, so how then can someone be a trans-anything when the line between genders is so blurry to begin with? To me, trans-anything seems to reinforce a binary definition of gender.

I think we associate images and characteristics with "inherent" traits, which leads us to name those feelings that we don't associate with male-ness as female. So yes, I believe that some people may be more comfortable expressing those feminine virtues that you mentioned if they look and feel the part. It's like getting into character for a play - after all, gender is nothing but a performance anyway.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

We've had countless threads discussing why members crossdress, with a wide variety of answers, such as: it gives comfort, or it is relaxing, it brings joy, it is exciting, it brings happiness, I enjoy being feminine, I want to look beautiful, I hate the way I look as a guy, it is sexual, it is sensual, it makes me feel like myself, it feels normal for me, I have a degree of feminine identity ... and other reasons I'm sure I missed.

I can understand all of the above reasons, since they either describe deeper motives, or the payoff for dressing. They describe the feelings that individuals get when they dress and we all know that our behaviors are motivated by the prospect of a reward or a punishment. We tend to do things that feel good (eat, sleep, earn incomes, engage in hobbies, be altruistic and help others, crossdress, engage in other pleasant activities, etc). And we tend to not do things that feel bad. Either way, the feeling that we anticipate getting will influence whether we will choose to do something or not.

But, there are also reasons that I don't understand and they're not reasons, really. They don't indicate how exactly the crossdresser benefits from dressing. These reasons are: "I just like women's clothes. They feel nicer or softer than men's clothes. Women's clothes have a wider variety of styles and colors. Women are allowed to wear pants so why can't men wear skirts." I might even add "It makes me feel good" to this list, since saying this is rather non-descriptive.

Surely, there must be more to the second set of reasons that explain why a man would risk jeopardizing his marriage and/or a job, and risk subjecting himself to potential ridicule and ostracism from peers … and therefore staying closeted, just because women's clothes "are nicer"? Surely the payoff must be large indeed to risk all those things? Is there no need at all to be feminine, or is it really just because women's clothes come in prettier colors and feel softer?

… which by the way doesn't make sense if these are the only reasons, because men's clothes also come in silk, cashmere, fine woven soft wools, top grade cottons, and also in a wide array of colors.

[SIZE="4"]Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?[/SIZE]

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Reine, first off, there is the great distaste for labels and having to explain away the 2nd category could mean labels. It is easier as a cd to cd justification for being a crossdresser, perhaps. You have to remember that you are one of the few women here that take part in the discussion--this is mostly a "men's club". Men are not very good at revealing their inner thoughts even among their families, not to mention their wives. Is it something that they think their wives will understand and apprecieate? possibly. Does your SO ever give you one of those reasons?
The curious thing for me, is that if CDs are emulating women, they really should be wearing flip-flops, jeans, a t-shsirt or hoodie, no make-up--because that is what I see for the most part in my town of 200K. If wonderful patterns, colors, cuts and fabrics were really as important to women as male CDs seem to think they are, why on earth would they be dressing in the casual way that they do?
Another expanation is that when men do things like hobbies, etc, it has to be the best. No budget stuff. If it is a camera, it had better be the best/the most expensive they can afford (and I have known shutterbugs with that attitude) or if it is rc airplanes, it has to be big--it has to have 4 motors, top of the line rc equipment, in short a 1 inch to the foot scale B-17. It is what MEN DO, regardless that they may have "feminine fellings". If it is a bio-chemical thing or even epigenetic, then the clothes shouldn't matter, because it doesn't seem to mater to real women either. What to MtF TS say about clothing? since they feel like women from the start, then clothing should have little bearing on what they do.
It could be some form of rationalization for some inner feelings that would indicate being gay was a non-starter for that person. I have read of a study recently that more than half of a group of TS said they wanted to "switch over" because it was easier than accepting the fact that they were gay.
The mind is one hell of an organ because it can rationalize faster than a speeding bullet.
Why do I do it? great question,but it doesn't include frills. I wear women's pants,. socks, undies, a bra due to my gynecomastia during the day in my normal activities,. , and heels in the house when I'm home because I DO LIKE THEM and they take away the ache of plantar fasciitis that I normally have when wearing regular guy shoes. I think hormones are very much a part of my dressing and feelings and perhaps some psychological reasons from childhood but I don't think that is everything to explain it away. Could be that my brain wasn't entirely masculinized while in fetal state but I can't say.
Clothing for everyone is an outward expression and unfortuntely for men, women's clothing is largely taboo which is the reason that if we just crossdress (rather than femulate), we may have more success and be acceptable in POLITE society. The other curious question is that when we androgynous or unisex styles, why does it always tend to go towards the MALE styles? In sci-fi everyhting is always coveralls, or head-to toes stick-on clothing. what happened to women in the process? Did they just become men? Why doesn't unisex go to skirts and blouses for everyone? Surely it can't be cost!

Remember, there are lots of reasons. People often try to say that there is only one reason, or maybe two, and people just deny it (ie, I can't be a fetishist, that's weird, or I'm not on my way to being fully tg, that's weird, etc., etc.,), but I wouldn't say so. I'm pretty sure there are _at least_ four totally separate reasons I can think of. Maybe more.

As to it being viewed as such as big deal, though, I dunno. _Dungeons & Dragons_ is a pretty big deal breaker to many people. Playing games like _World of Warcraft_ and _Everquest_ have broken up marriages. Sure, it's not the same thing, I'm just saying people will do things they enjoy even if society sometimes views them negatively, especially if they can find people who feel the same as they do (ie, anyone on this forum). It's not like people are doing something damaging to anyone. There's an impulse within people to just reject taboos like that. Bear in mind, people who actively crossdress for various reasons, as opposed to just wear panties once or twice as a lark, are probably not that common. So there's a selection criteria involving anyone who reaches a point that they would identiy _as_ a crossdresser. I suspect if there wasn't a taboo, it would be far more common.

As a thought, though, for motivation, consider this, especially as it relates to "disorder". "Introversion personality disorder" often comes up as a mental disorder; it often gets put up for inclusion in the DSM and APA. Now, there are extremes, but the root is that historically being an introvert has been seen societally as "wrong." People should be extroverts. And yet we know that some people "energize" by being allowed time to be alone, whether they read, watch movies, play games, paint, whatever. Introverts often feel immense pressure to act like extroverts, especially in work environments, since the extroverted people rise to positions of leadership. This is exhausting for them and unnatural. Obviously, the negative view of introversion is not seen as strongly as what I'm about to talk about, it's a more commonly understood phenomen, however.

Our society, possibly due to biological tendencies and partially due to culture, suggests that many alpha-type behaviors are seen as being "male" and many group-cooperative behaviors are seen as "female." However, what if it's a bit like introversion/extroversion? Maybe not all males are pure alpha -- in fact, psych tests show that they are not. If they were, being an alpha all the time would energize them, but we all know that work is exhausting for many people, even when doing non-menial jobs. Acting in the manner that society deems "proper" is perhaps unnatural for many people. So, some people, at some point, realize that they can escape this "unnaturalness" by crossdressing. Imagine if introversion was a taboo, and it was considered freakish to read books by yourself. One still might imagine people carefully doing so, making up excuses that they were at Bob's party to Pete and Pete's party to Bob, just so they could relax. Again, though, I do not suggest this is a universal answer, it is just one.

As a related aside, while alpha behavior is consistently seen as better, there is research that more woman (non-alpha behaviorists) increase the social intelligence of groups (the capacity of groups to solve problems). http://www.niemanlab.org/2011/05/mit...ure-of-groups/ It is good to question the assumptions of proper behavior. As a whole, we humans have been shown to do many things inefficiently over time, especially as we grow further afield from our ancient styles of life.

Anyway, tis a thought.

In my case it makes me feel better than I've ever felt in my life, its that simple. Jaymee

Quick clarification for everyone, so that we may avoid arguing over a term which we have not defined.

"Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression, or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth."

(Source: American Psychological Association)

We must remember that this term does not, in and of itself, refer to a necessary gender binary. It includes all expressions which may deviate from assigned gender. A man wearing a dress, for the purpose of expressing femininity (<---caveat), is exhibiting a transgender behavior. The word "transgender" does not serve to reinforce the gender binary, but merely uses it as a point of reference in a society which subscribes to it wholly. There's all sorts of blur to the line and overlapping within the transgender category.

I personally believe that we should define it as loosely as possible, while subcategories (transsexual, cross dresser, gender-fluid) are more rigorously defined. Form communities as you must, but do not operate on extremely strict rules as to who can be what. All Reine is asking is "How can x (said gender-deviant behavior) occur as an isolated act when all human behaviors involve intent and symbolism". I know that's a troubling question to many of you, and that you don't want to answer it. You don't have to, she's merely posing it. We all, within this community, have similarities and differences. We should handle discussions of our differences with patience and a desire to inform. No one is attempting to start a labeling war anyone here.

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Originally Posted by Ambergold43

Yep I totally agree. I agree it's all about the illusion, the temporary assuming of a different gender role... the moving from one social status (a man) to another (a woman). That's why I think the appeal of Crossdressing, if not just for the fun of it (which I know too well), is better explained not in terms of expressing some sort of "inner woman," but of the relief of not having to "be a man" or act masculine for a while.

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I understand the point you are making Amber and acknowledge the control that wives have over men - the "happy wife, happy life" adage. That doesn't lead me to want to escape the "male world" for that of a female ignoring the benefits of being a male and the disadvantages of being female.

My reasons for going out fully presenting as female and as passably dressed as possible have nothing to do with not wanting to be a man. My dressing is not a form of escapism - I am entirely happy being a man and don't want to change. Indeed, I recognise that I am seen by those with whom I interact as a man in a dress - if nothing else my voice gives me away. This is very liberating for me since I enjoy the interactions in what would otherwise be a quite lonely world of the CDer.

It is something deeper and more complex that drives me.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

… which by the way doesn't make sense if these are the only reasons, because men's clothes also come in silk, cashmere, fine woven soft wools, top grade cottons, and also in a wide array of colors.

Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?

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If it made sense we would not be having this conversation :) My reason is "because....."

There is so much info to be found at these Forums if people were just willing to pay attention. How can so many folks who have been here for SO long NOT know where Reine is?

Maybe someone could mention where the pic threads can be found... such as "show us your hands ladies" Or lets see those shoulders, ladies". That would help shed some light on this "mystery".

Someone post a thread titled "show us your sexiest pic ladies" or "show us your hottest shot ladies" and just watch what happens to the views and resposnes. I'll cover the bets.

Guys, it's okay to look at body PARTS and be ABLE to "get excited". It's just Evolution at work and nothing is going to stop or change Evolution. Until such time as Humanity comes up with some type of intervention allowing men to become pregnant, our eyes and brains will remain "quick triggers" to enable us to spread our seed as far and wide as possible with ZERO repercussions for ourselves.

Why the risk is a good question. I don't know. I don't get it. Maybe not able to admit the real truth about something that has deep emotion connected to it.

Reine, that is definitively a $64,000 question!

When I started down this path I definitely thought that it was about the clothes. It was so exciting to assemble a wardrobe and that task definitely entertained me and continues to do so. Going out dressed was also exciting, first in fearing the worst and then in the realization that it wasn't really such a big deal.

As I learned more about "girl world" I realized that one thing I perceived but didn't consciously understand was the closer modes of social interaction that GGs take for granted. Male interaction always involves a certain level of aggressiveness and competition whereas females tend to cooperate and be more nurturing with each other. I have come to realize that preference for the latter mode of interaction is a part of my TG-ness.

I think that the clothes are a symbol of an ideal. I envy women their socialization ability. I'd love to be able to participate in that but as I cannot pass 100% I have zero chance of acceptance in the GG mainstream. The only thing that comes close is CDing events and of course the clothes can be a big part of that.

That's a very interesting perception Eryn.

I am really surprised a person that is so well versed would have such confusion and seeming objection to the idea that someone can just like the clothing.

I LIKE THE CLOTHING, and related styles. Period end of subject.

Now, I will add the caveat, I am of a mind that works like both male and female, I am mentally in many ways what my ex stated she was physically. I find the clothing women get to wear to be much "funner" and creative in many ways than male styles. Males styles also are more centered around power of some type (yes I realize the same can be said about female styles as well) and that power is often violent in some way. (not always mind you ).

But, that being said.....why does it matter? Why let this bug you? Does the fact I prefer skirts to pants, and would only transition if I felt it was the only way to make it in life affect you in anyway negatively at all?

That is the important thing that I am realizing more and more. As long as no one is hurt, financially, mentally, or physically, (unless that person is being rotten to others) then it should not bother you.

There is a few things that happen

1. Were wired withna percentage of femme brain
2. We love and arevattracted tomwomen and somethingnhappens where itnseems natural to do what you oove
3. It is healthier, In mens loose clothes i walk clumsily, the ttention to dress actually creates a meditative heling space where i am in tune with my body. If a man wlks thru a room we are likely to bump in ot a chair to get it out of the way. A woman will calmly walk around it. Which is better?

Why is the sky blue? N/m that one is easy to find out.:) Good luck getting to the bottom of this Reine.

Almost 80 responses and no answer to the original question. Why do some CDers reason that they dress just because they think that women's clothes are nicer? All the discussion thus far portrays many good reasons but not the one in question. Could it be simply because they choose to wear clothes that seem to them to be nicer than men's clothing?

In other threads, CDs who frequent this site have so stated. That being the case, why choose to "debunk" the real perception of someone who is offering their opinion based upon what they think. Just because you don't like the answer, Reine, does not make it untrue. Your whole premise seems to me to be more than a bit rude and condescending.

I AM a crossdresser; I AM qualified to make this assertion. I've been a CD at all sorts of levels for many years like others who have offered their sometimes well-studied opinions. Your perception of self and words used to describe it may well be set in stone. I can tell you from a lifetime of experience and personal interviews with many, many transgendered people that for many of us, our perception of self changes quite often.

I wasn't really speaking for anyone else but myself here and I'm pretty much absolutely certain that I would have taken the blue pill at my conception and chosen female. I know they also face challenges but I've known several that loved being women. For sure, I would have been more successful in finding love as a woman than as a man if my present genetics were roughly the same. There is no question that I would have been highly desireable as a woman not just because I was pretty but because I'm musical, good with kids, quiet, can keep busy, etc etc. My dance coach once said that I was what men really wanted once during a lesson. So I'm not just talking of the top of my head here! I would also have had a shot at winning some contests and being a cheerleader too ;-)

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Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

Then Cass wrote this:

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An even simpler explanation is that to me, women have it better in everything--they get to express their gender without reprisal, they get to be emotional without judgement, they are pampered and cared for, they are into dialog instead of competition (typically), they get to be taken sexually, their sexuality is more holistic than focused, they are softer. The list goes on and on.

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This is a common belief of a lot of men; just one of the 'grass is always greener on the other side of the fence' things. Either the man really believes it, or uses the argument to support why he feels envious of being a woman as a valid reason for his crossdressing/TG/TS condition. Of course it's not true, but when searching for a simple reason to enable them to avoid facing their underlying one, it seems lots of men use it. But it's not true; they simply don't want to face reality.

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Reine - to me you have earned the right to ask whatever question you desire. You have been our greatest supporter. You have helped us to work through all sort of conflict. You have been kind and understanding. How can anyone jump on the proverbial bandwagon and criticize all that you have done for us!!!! There are just a handful of ladies on this site whose inputs I would never miss. Friederike, Anne, others, but most significantly, you. I cannot count the times you have clarified issues that we seem to struggle with. The way you can temper a conflict and bring it into focus so we can look at things in a logical, pragmatic way is a gift which which we should all appreciate.

I for one, value your insights, and would be at a loss were you to choose not to participate in this process. You have my thanks and admiration, and I am confident I speak for the majority of us "ladies".

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Originally Posted by Eryn

As I learned more about "girl world" I realized that one thing I perceived but didn't consciously understand was the closer modes of social interaction that GGs take for granted. Male interaction always involves a certain level of aggressiveness and competition whereas females tend to cooperate and be more nurturing with each other. I have come to realize that preference for the latter mode of interaction is a part of my TG-ness.

I think that the clothes are a symbol of an ideal. I envy women their socialization ability. I'd love to be able to participate in that but as I cannot pass 100% I have zero chance of acceptance in the GG mainstream. The only thing that comes close is CDing events and of course the clothes can be a big part of that.

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I love the interaction with GGs and that is the reason that all of my close friends are GGs. I have real communication with GGs that is not possible for me with males. I just can't relate to males on their level. I only have one male friend and he is an intellectual that is somewhat on the feminine side, although he is not TG.

I don't know about anyone else, but I do it because it makes me look more like a girl.

See for me the notion of "I feel more like a woman" doesn't work too well for myself. Reason being....because you were born and raised male, you really have no idea what it is like to be a woman other than the social implications of that. Everything you experience is based off your perceptions as a male. Every perception is shaded by your being raised as a male. It is like someone saying " I feel more like a cat when I dress as one".

The clothes just affirm an innate feminine feeling for me,and that is my reason,or one of them.And everyone else's answers are just as valid,there are no wrong answers.We are talking about personal feelings and preferences,these things are not there to be Debunked.Whoever is trying to "debunk" them is seriously questioning themselves and their motivations.I think for the most part everyone here understands and accepts who they are so that is why some of us don't even understand the question.

Good Lord, people!!

I didn't expect so many answers! Or so many private messages!

I have not logged in since I started the thread so it will take a while for me to read the *four pages* :eek: of responses.

Thank you all for responding, and I'm looking forward to reading why this question has attracted to much activity. I hope that people aren't bickering over their different points of view. :p

:hugs:

Man, why all the flack? If your wife asked you this question would you jump down her throat? It's just a question asked honestly and for understanding.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Good Lord, people!!

I didn't expect so many answers! Or so many private messages!

I have not logged in since I started the thread so it will take a while for me to read the *four pages* :eek: of responses.

Thank you all for responding, and I'm looking forward to reading why this question has attracted to much activity. I hope that people aren't bickering over their different points of view. :p

:hugs:

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Reine are you sure you're not a double agent?:heehee:

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Good Lord, people!!

I didn't expect so many answers! Or so many private messages!

I have not logged in since I started the thread so it will take a while for me to read the *four pages* :eek: of responses.

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Reine, I'm looking forward to your thoughtful and reasoned response to every post... :)

ReineD, good for you, a good question gets a person thinking, a great question starts a fire. Now that the fire is started, the question is who is protesting to much, as the expression goes, "if you throw a rock down a dark alley and something screams, then you know you hit something". I will leave now, to my own self reflection.

Guilty, I am! I've often used that excuse. I guess that I like feminine things and like to look feminine. As for clothes I understand that many mens clothes are made from the same materials as womens so it can't be the material. Many times it may be the construction of the garment. Some men's things are more comfortable such as seatshirts. Women's are cut shorter. Many times I'll wear a woman's article even if it is not as comfortable, shoes are a good example. Some women's clothes are lighter and move different than their men's counter parts. Silk blouses are a good example.

Maybe it is the endorphins that make us want to repeat the experience. Risk raises the level of endorphins. I admit if two items looked alike I would pick the woman's article. I wear a bra most of the time. I enjoy the essence of fiminity. It has nothing to do with sex, but with mindset.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

We've had countless threads discussing why members crossdress, with a wide variety of answers, such as: it gives comfort, or it is relaxing, it brings joy, it is exciting, it brings happiness, I enjoy being feminine, I want to look beautiful, I hate the way I look as a guy, it is sexual, it is sensual, it makes me feel like myself, it feels normal for me, I have a degree of feminine identity ... and other reasons I'm sure I missed.

I can understand all of the above reasons, since they either describe deeper motives, or the payoff for dressing. They describe the feelings that individuals get when they dress and we all know that our behaviors are motivated by the prospect of a reward or a punishment. We tend to do things that feel good (eat, sleep, earn incomes, engage in hobbies, be altruistic and help others, crossdress, engage in other pleasant activities, etc). And we tend to not do things that feel bad. Either way, the feeling that we anticipate getting will influence whether we will choose to do something or not.

But, there are also reasons that I don't understand and they're not reasons, really. They don't indicate how exactly the crossdresser benefits from dressing. These reasons are: "I just like women's clothes. They feel nicer or softer than men's clothes. Women's clothes have a wider variety of styles and colors. Women are allowed to wear pants so why can't men wear skirts." I might even add "It makes me feel good" to this list, since saying this is rather non-descriptive.

Surely, there must be more to the second set of reasons that explain why a man would risk jeopardizing his marriage and/or a job, and risk subjecting himself to potential ridicule and ostracism from peers … and therefore staying closeted, just because women's clothes "are nicer"? Surely the payoff must be large indeed to risk all those things? Is there no need at all to be feminine, or is it really just because women's clothes come in prettier colors and feel softer?

… which by the way doesn't make sense if these are the only reasons, because men's clothes also come in silk, cashmere, fine woven soft wools, top grade cottons, and also in a wide array of colors.

Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?

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Reine, I'm wondering if we perhaps haven't misunderstood what you wanted here. The examples that you give would seem to me--after re-reading your OP -that you are citing explanations rather than reasons. reasons are the basis or cause of something, explanations clarify. for example if you said to someone that they look really femme they might reply it is because they are wearing a dress and their hair is done up and they have jewelry on. This is different from WHY do you dress? I have blue eyes because I have a genetic fault (THE REASON) that creates blue eyes, but it doesn't clarify/explain why I see the world as a depressing place.
The reasons/basis for most people would be difficult to ascertain, the explanations for what people are doing can be as varied as there are people, and they would all be valid. "I yam what I yam" is a facile explanation for doing something, but not the real reason.
This may apply to cross dressers of all stripes.
" what you don't know determines what you think you know, in ways that aren't completely known to you". Howard Rheingold.

so let me get this straight, Reine isn't a troll?

Look at how many people she got to answer and how many answers that are all different there are. I would say "well played Reine" :)

Since 50% of the time the clothing I wear isn't what most here think when dressing (I get the clothes from the department in the store that says "Misses...Ok Juniors), it isn't just the clothes. However I do say they are "Just clothes" and nothing magic. But when I do dress, I like to dress to be seen. I can be invisible anytime. No it isn't the fabric, it is how I look. It makes me feel good about me. And that is what is important, that I feel good about me. I don't have to please anyone else.

I'm sorry I can't give you a deeper reason Reine, because I would never make a "stand alone" statement like this. As you know, I consider myself to be TG, so it is much more than just the clothes for me. I could never just "wear the clothes" and be satisfied, because they are "nicer" (even though in most cases they are).

Congratulations on "lighting up" the switchboard" though!

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Originally Posted by LaraPeterson

Almost 80 responses and no answer to the original question. Why do some CDers reason that they dress just because they think that women's clothes are nicer? All the discussion thus far portrays many good reasons but not the one in question. Could it be simply because they choose to wear clothes that seem to them to be nicer than men's clothing?

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But why do these clothes seem nicer to them than men's clothing? You see, this answer doesn't explain CDers. The vast majority of men in this world don't find women's clothes nicer. So what makes CDers different?

I don't wear women's clothing because I find it nicer. I wear it because it better reflects who I am. But that doesn't explain why I am what I am. The answer, "That's just the way I am," doesn't satisfy me and it wouldn't satisfy many people I've spoken to.

Reine's question is an attempt to get to the real heart of the matter.

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Originally Posted by LaraPeterson

In other threads, CDs who frequent this site have so stated. That being the case, why choose to "debunk" the real perception of someone who is offering their opinion based upon what they think. Just because you don't like the answer, Reine, does not make it untrue. Your whole premise seems to me to be more than a bit rude and condescending.

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Originally Posted by Jenniferathome

Man, why all the flack? If your wife asked you this question would you jump down her throat? It's just a question asked honestly and for understanding.

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I agree, Jennifer. Reine's not being rude and condescending. As far as I'm concerned, it's a question honestly asked and for understanding.

I myself think it's important for us transpeople to understand ourselves as thoroughly as possible. That way we can explain what we are about to sympathetic cispeople. If we don't supply an explanation, it leaves it open to trans-haters to supply their explanation--which they're always happy to do.

I've never lost anybody's sympathy by giving them what information I can about TGism. Are we really going to allow the trans-haters to control the discussion? Here's one for CDers to think about:

Trans-hater: Why do you wear women's clothes?
CDer: I like the feel of it, the colors, the texture, the style of it.
Trans-hater: But why do you like that sort of thing? A normal, healthy male doesn't.
CDer: Don't ask rude, useless questions. That's just the way it is.
Trans-hater: OK. I won't ask any more questions. You're not like a normal, healthy male. You're sick, you're a pervert. That's just the way it is.

Is that the way we want to let the discussion go? I want to do better than that. That's why I look for explanations. That's why I want to know as much as I can.

When I have an argument with a trans-hater, I won't convince him. But by giving as much information as I can, I have a chance of winning over the neutrals who are following the argument. You give them knowledge so that they won't be won over by ignorance.

Annabelle

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Debunking: "I like women's clothes"

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[SIZE="2"]The title bothers me...:hmph:

It would have been a LOT better if you had written Questioning: “I like women’s clothes” rather than use the extremely insensitive and hurtful word “debunk.” Your poorly-chosen word, in this instance, infers a desire to discredit MtF crossdressers who like dressing, period. Why would you wish to do that? Pretty much everybody laughs at us, from SO’s, to confused girlfriends, to loved ones (bingo!), to media pundits, to societal watchdogs, to the man (and woman) in the street, so why must you join the chorus of negativity? You’re trifling with us. You’re dealing with us if our feelings were of little importance or worth. Debunk is a word used by people who are unable to see reality from a point of view other than the one they were indoctrinated into from childhood – you’re ridiculing us, in other words, and I fail to see why. An expression like, “I like to wear women’s clothes,” is not some kind of exaggerated claim, it’s a simple statement of fact – there’s nothing to debunk, but you, in your infinite GG wisdom, has to step in and spoil the party. Are we MtF crossdressers bugging you?

You know, they say that truth lies at the bottom of a well. I assume you do not wish to enter that well, go all the way to the bottom, get your feet wet, and SEE the truth, so you prefer to casually peer into the well, take a quick glance, and make up your mind about something. That’s all well and good, but I would expect something a little better from YOU, a moderator (now a debunkerator) on a forum for crossdressers. I know you’re posting here as a member, but I must question your motives. Look – I’m saving you the trouble from having to go down into the well of truth by giving you a simple explanation why some of us crossdress, M to F, and gain pleasure from it. It’s not the ONLY explanation, but it seems to be the least appreciated pronouncement by those who wouldn’t know about such things. I fail to see the logic of your debunking exercise, unless you’re stirring the pot to see who agrees with your assessment – crossDRESSING says it all at times, without any further need for clarification, but why must you "campaign" against simple truths? It’s NOT helping, to say the least…

A smilie for you: :stirthepot: Is that what you want? [/SIZE]

Hi, Freddy! I think I'd agree with you about this word "debunking". Reine could perhaps have chosen a better word. But one word doesn't invalidate a useful post.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

An expression like, "I like to wear women's clothes," is not some kind of exaggerated claim, it's a simple statement of fact . . .

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Yes, Freddy, it is a simple statement of fact which nobody is questioning. It's not, however, an explanation. That's the question being raised on this thread: what's the explanation of this simple fact?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

You know, they say that truth lies at the bottom of a well. I assume you do not wish to enter that well, go all the way to the bottom, get your feet wet, and SEE the truth, so you prefer to casually peer into the well, take a quick glance, and make up your mind about something.

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On the contrary, I think she is trying to get to the bottom of the well. She's asking why we do what we do. That question doesn't offend me. I wish I understood fully why I do what I do, why I am what I am. I, as a transperson, would love to be able to explain to her, as a cisperson, why I am what I am. Isn't this what we transpeople want--understanding? Well, a cisperson has now asked for help in understanding. Why not help her out?

I don't see any condemnation in her post. I've never seen any condemnation in any of her posts. Her OP is saying that the normal explanations of CDing that she sees don't satisfy her because they don't go deep enough, they don't go to the heart of the matter. I'd agree with her on that. I'm looking for real, deep, satisfying answers myself. Not everybody is. That's up to them. But I don't see why a request for such answers should offend anybody.

Best wishes, Annabelle

No big elaborate answer for me, I have a simple mind, no deep thoughts here.
Simple I like the feeling of the clothes better then my mens clothes.
Been wearing blue collar uniforms for 40 years and I like to step outside the norm sometimes.
I always have been a little differant. :heehee:

Thank you so much, everyone, for your responses, and for the record: I was not asking why people crossdress! I know many reasons why you do, and because I've literally read tens of thousands of posts here over the years, sometimes I think I have a greater understanding of it than many of the CDers! :p I was rather asking why SOME of the CDers say it is nothing more than liking soft fabric and pretty colors, as if this is on a par with preferring silk over cotton sheets … when they risk so much just to crossdress. Please read my first post. ;)

That said, many of you came up with answers that I did not include in my first paragraph when I started the thread, but that I also know to be reasons for dressing, so I'll list them here to keep them all in one place. Some of these are different ways of saying the same thing. I'm paraphrasing so as to not clutter this post with too many quotes, but you'll recognize yourselves when you read this: :)

• Dressing gives me the permission to not be macho, not act male, and not be strong.
• I dress precisely because they are women's clothes and this is what makes it so magical for me, because wearing the clothes makes me feel as close to being feminine as possible.
• It's programmed into my genes and it is instinctive.
• Saying "I just like the clothes" was a simple way for me to downplay it to my family at first, when I came out to them.
• It is sexual when younger, and then the brain learns to associate the look and feel of wearing female clothing with sexual gratification. It rewires the brain, like Pavlov's dog experiment.
• It's about divesting oneself of the power, privilege, and responsibility (and the stress that comes along with it) that masculinity provides and demands.
• It's a degree of GID. I have a need to dress even though it is not enough to want to live full time or transition.
• It became a psychological addiction after I started dressing.
• Maybe it has to do with the endorphins!

AND … this is another honest reason that doesn't downplay anything, which is what my SO told me in the beginning:

• I just don't have an answer.

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Originally Posted by Amanda M

Could it be that they just don't need to?

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I can understand someone not wanting to explain why they crossdress. Such people can simply say that they do not want to discuss their motives. Or as mentioned above, that they simply do not know why they feel compelled to dress. But, they don't need to downplay or minimize it, not in a forum where others come for answers. Does it do a newbie any good to read posts that minimize motives, which might absolve him from seeking deeper answers if he is in a relationship where the deeper answers are requested?

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Originally Posted by Joanne f

and the one thing you left out , To feel normal , I am sure that most females have exactly the same reasons for liking to wear certain types of clothing and for some unknown reason there seems to be a growing number of males that have a similar reason to do the same yet society makes us have to explain why, maybe that is the unfair bit about cross dressing

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Joanne, I did mention "feeling normal" in my OP. CDers who feel this way are also saying they dress for identity reasons. But to address your comment about GGs also wanting to "feel normal" as a motive for choosing what to wear, I've got to say that no, it's not the same thing. I always "feel normal" no matter how I dress. I dress in gender appropriate clothing no matter how fancy, casual, or even sloppy they may be. I choose different outfits based on what is considered acceptable for the venue. If I am painting a room or doing spring cleaning, I will wear any already stained, torn item of clothing that is available even if it is my adult son's discarded shirt, in order to not ruin my good clothes. If I am going for a job interview I will wear skirts & blazers with blouses. If I'm going out on a date with a guy that I want to impress, I'll wear something sexy. If I'm feeling down and want to lift out of it, then I'll suggest a fancy restaurant to my SO. Or, if I'm single, I'll call up a girlfriend and ask if she wants to come with me to a fancy night club. I would not go to my room and put on a glitzy gown by myself. Doing this would be meaningless without a place to go to.

My clothing choices are based on what is considered acceptable or desirable for what I DO and where I GO. Alone and my myself, I wear comfy, easy wash clothes and no makeup. THIS is what is normal for me. Contrary to popular belief, wearing makeup is not actually the default, "normal" thing to do. :p It is not about putting on clothes that will make me feel any differently than I already feel. In my example above about putting on the glitz to get out of a depressive mood, it is the place I'd go to and the people there, that would accomplish this much more than the clothes. The clothes are just the ticket, if you will, to get me in the door. If I were to dress in clothing that most people would recognize as men's clothes (real men's clothes :p), I'd stress myself out! I wouldn't want people to think me odd, and this is because I'm not gender non-conforming. If I were, then the benefits of self-expression would far outweigh the potential negatives of other people's judgments.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

[SIZE="2"]
You know, I get the feeling that you don't like US... :sad:[/SIZE]

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Yes, I do like you and all the other members here. I also love my SO who does what you do, although s/he identifies as a crossdresser who is dualgender. :)

Please don't mistake my inability to understand the "It's just about the clothes" motives, with a dislike for crossdressers. I started this thread precisely because I do want to understand the members who say they dress in women's clothing simply because they like a variety of colors and fabrics, when there are similar colors and fabrics found in men's clothes. +?

The biggest sticking point for me is that a crossdresser risks a great deal in order to either go out in public or remain closeted, if this is "just" about an appreciation for the colors and fabrics. Being closeted alone causes stress and discomfort, since a crossdresser is bound to not be able to indulge when plans are thwarted for unforeseen reasons. There are many stories on this board about tempers escalating when a CD cannot dress and he cannot tell anyone what he needs or wants to do. There are other stories about crossdressers who can't wait until their wives or kids leave so they can dress! This sort of dynamics is bound to be felt by a perceptive wive and eventually this does erode the trust or the closeness between a couple. There are indeed things to lose by doing this.

So can you see why it is so difficult to understand when a member makes it seem as if the activity is nothing more serious than a mild preference, a "take it or leave it" activity? An analogy: I like wild blueberry pie. But, if eating wild blueberries had negative consequences for me, if for example they were on the endangered species list and there were stiff fines for indulging, or if I were allergic to blueberries, or if my family was allergic to blueberries (like some peanut allergies) and I could not have them in the house, I would not eat them! Nor would I eat them in hiding. I would cultivate other preferences, so as to not experience distress over my inability to eat the blueberries. I would eat peach pie, which I also love. I do not NEED to eat blueberries!

You mention that women's clothes reveal. If you mean that the clothes are a symbol for the stereotypical feminine characteristics that you wish to cultivate or celebrate in yourself, or if you enjoy the female curves these clothes give you, as mfakley (#45) suggests, then you would not be downplaying it by stating this as your reason. At least it would be better than a CDer who says that he just likes silk and pink. If, however, you mean revealing the body in a sexual manner, then this would indicate a wish to entice a man, which is why women dress provocatively. This would again be a better reason than the CDer who says that he enjoys pink and cashmere … since there ARE pink, cashmere men's sweaters too. :)

You mention fetish. If the fetish is sexual, then I do understand dressing for orgasmic relief. The drive for sex is powerful indeed and people will risk certain things for sexual gratification. But if the motive is fetish, then why say that is is "just" about the clothes? Barring going overboard with it to the point where it has a negative impact, is there anything wrong with having a sexual motive for wearing women's clothes?

I can also understand if the need to dress is similar to a shopping addiction or compulsion. We have fetish/compulsive members here and I've no trouble understanding why they do this. I was once addicted to a substance and I KNOW how difficult it is to control those impulses and I admire members when they're honest about having such motives. But to just say, "Oh, I only like the colors or the fabrics" just doesn't make sense. An addict who snorts coke would seem awfully silly if he said, "Naaah. I'm not addicted. I just like the color or the feel of the powder", or, "It just makes me feel good". :strugglin

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

[SIZE="2"]
It would have been a LOT better if you had written Questioning: “I like women’s clothes” rather than use the extremely insensitive and hurtful word “debunk.” Your poorly-chosen word, in this instance, infers a desire to discredit MtF crossdressers who like dressing, period.[/SIZE]

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First, I haven't been a mod here for over six months. You'll note the absence of any moderator identification under my user name and in my signature.

Second, I'm sorry that you don't like my word. But I assure you that it is not an attempt to discredit anyone. Of course, crossdressers enjoy wearing clothes. If they didn't, they wouldn't now would they? I specifically questioned the sole motive of dressing merely because of a preference for certain colors and fabrics, when similar colors or fabrics are available in men's clothes.

I really do like you, Freddy, and I wish you would stop projecting everything that you've suffered in your personal life and in your community (which I know is biased and unforgiving), onto me.

Also, you can read my last comment to Pythos two posts down, for my fundamental motive in wanting to open this up for discussion.

It was an honest question, Freddy, and if you've read all the responses you'll see that quite a few of the CDers also question the enjoyment of just the clothes as the sole motive, and it's a shame that you see me as stirring the pot, especially after my history here. You need only look at my post history to see how trollish are all my other posts and threads.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Michelle (Oz)

Frankly though I don't know why I dress at such a high cost ...

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Exactly. Yes, there has been a high cost for you. And even though you don't know what motivates you, you do not say that you dress just because you like soft fabrics and pretty colors.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stephanie47

I think saying as a cross dresser I just like the feel or look of the clothing is some sort of self denial. Now, I do not really have a clue why I like to emulate women. I never was 'feminized' by an older sister or cousin or aunt or my mother. I have no excuse. I have no reason. I don't know why.

Years ago my wife did buy me men's underpants and lounging pants in sensuous fabrics. It is not work. It's not the same as women's clothing. She bought a length of lingerie fabric to rub over my body in bed in lieu of a nylon gown. It did not work. It wasn't the same.

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Precisely. It's not at all about soft fabrics and pretty colors. :)