well that is the reason I never comment on anything you write Anne. To much drama.
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well that is the reason I never comment on anything you write Anne. To much drama.
e: nevermindQuote:
Originally Posted by Frances
There is a place called "youtube" where people upload detailed descriptions of their dreams and fantasies. It attracts other people with similiar dreams and fantasies which expands on the original idea. Youtube is still very usable as far as I know and people have gone on to realize their dreams.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeaP
But you raised a good point.
What is the purpose of this forum then? Is it to slap people in the face with a hit of reality? Or is it to nurture one's dreams and fantasies so that they may one day take the leap?
Maybe this entire forum should just be divided into TWO sections, "reality" and "fantasy". :)
Dreams and fantasies, in its strictest sense, should not have any correlation with real life.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeaP
The question is, do you allow that here in the forum?
I can't say this on behalf of everybody, but everything that I am today in real life, is one way or another related to my fantasies.
Okay, so I'm not the first officer of the USS Enterprise, neither am I Vulcan or Betazoid, but I've spent a great deal of my time travelling and exploring places others would never dream to go and my job consists of being empathetic and logical at the same. Do you understand this analogy?
Your surgeon tells you both sides of the story, that is, "hair transplant could restore some of your hair", but the "hair restored is most likely to be modest and it could potentially fail".Quote:
Originally Posted by LeaP
This is merely a fact he tells you, you decide if that panders to your fantasies or not. If you chose to focus on the fact that it could "restore your hair", then you are pandering to your fantasies. If you chose to focus on the fact that the "hair restored is modest and could potentially fail", then you are pandering to your need for reality.
It has nothing to do with the surgeon if he was indulging your fantasies or not. People do that for themselves.
Love,
S
Holy crap, ladies... I'm all for real talk - it's a large part of why I like the people in this forum - but there comes a point in any heated dialogue where you're just stuck in a feedback loop of ever-increasing vitriol and rage, and it's time to walk away, breathe, and simmer down for a bit.
I'm becoming convinced that a slightly different division of forums would be helpful here, or at least a restatement of purpose for the existing ones. I am firmly of the opinion that the "real talk" surrounding full-time transition is hugely valuable, and entirely necessary - it's a big part of why I value this forum.
I'm not suggesting what the name should be, but I think there needs to be a forum in the Safe Haven for people who are specifically in the midst of, have completed, or are planning on undertaking a full-time transition. Alternatively, there could be a non-transitioning forum. Or, the public TS forum could be redeclared as the place for the "wider variety of experiences" discussions, and the Safe Haven could be restricted to those pursuing full-time transition. I don't care what the configuration looks like, but if (as I and others believe) there are specific realities associated with being full-time that need frank discussion, then we need a place to discuss those things without people complaining about feeling marginalized. Similarly, the people undergoing different sorts of transitions that may not result in full-time need a place to discuss their issues without feeling marginalized. The system is not doing any favors for either group as it stands right now, at least lately.
I would have thought that the answer was simple. If you are so sensitive that you cannot stand anybody disagreeing with you then you just do not post on those threads. Why have separate boards. Why move discussions about being full time to a restricted area so newbies cannot see them leaving them relying on part timers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey
The way some people write it would seem that Anne has the ability to stop them posting. She is expressing an opinion. One I sometimes I agree with and sometimes don't. It does not stop anyone else expressing their opinion. Or are we back to the attitude that you can challenge what someone says but if someone challenges something you say they are bullying you?
I know that HRT makes you go through a second puberty but that does not mean people have to act like over sensitive teenagers. We are all adults here (or maybe not).
The forum is divided into fantasy and reality. There is the Crossdresser sub forum and the Transsexual sub forum.
We should feed into people's fantasy is they are considering transition. Advocate for full transition at the fastest speed possible. NOT. Sorry those needing to transition need to know it's not a walk in the park. Transition is F****ing hard. It's real. It's expensive. The potential for losses are great. Very, very few suffer no or minimal loss. So yeah we should encourage and support unrealistic and fantastical ideas.
We all have different experiences. They all have value if they are experienced and lived. I made a comment in another thread. I'm finding the 2nd year more difficult than the first and I had the benefit of FFS in the second. The first I thought was fairly easy even without the benefit of FFS. Others have said the first year was harder than the second. Different experiences, but valid because they are lived experiences.
You don't offer a different point of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by whowhatwhen
Seems to be the way here now! There are a certain few who have to give their opinion on everything. I guess they just want their post numbers to go up. Kinda why I have giving up on this forum.. Oh don't forget to spell check me and point out my flaws !!! I came here for support and advice and possible meet new friends. So much for that . but who am I to say anything .
Pretty sure I did when I said some people are afraid to post here, but it's totally okay and fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
Actually, you have never asked for any kind of support or advice in the TS forums. As for people here spell checking you - their posts would not be allowed to stand and if they persisted, they would soon find themselves in trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trinity Sue
Your one and only other post in this forum was informational and was greeted as such.
<walks in a peeks around>
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...d=249874&stc=1
For what it's worth, I agree with everything you said in principle. If we were all adults here though, this thread wouldn't be in the state it's in. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by emma5410
A modest suggestion, if I may. Please try to look outside of yourselves and your own lives a bit. Some of you do this, but quite a few don't really seem to do so.
So we're really arguing over whether or not it's OK to call out people as fakes based on their posts here? Really?
Is this the biggest problem we are all facing? Potentially delusional people on a forum?
Or are we arguing for the tough "love" approach because, gosh darn it, the world is becoming a (tiny bit) more accepting of us, and we can't risk someone getting through the gauntlet and taking less BS than we took?
Or is this just for the cis spouses, who are probably going to get a divorce anyway, because it's all fun and games until someone starts on hormones?
None of these seem like real problems to me. (Sure, divorce, discrimination, etc. are very real problems. The great trans-fakers and regretters? Um, OK.)
The "American Horror Story: Asylum" style mental health care available for trans patients in the local psychiatric hospital here, or the new trans health clinic that only supports trans people who are HIV+, or homeless (everyone else, better hope your 30 hour per week minimum wage job no health insurance benefit job leaves you enough at the end of the month to fill your prescription) - those seem like real problems.
By the way, the two of those problems together are, of course, extra-super-awesome. Imagine working your crappy job, sinking into gender dysphoria, attempting suicide, and then getting stuck, for weeks, in a psychiatric hospital that misgenders you and makes your problem WORSE, thus prompting an even longer stay in the hospital. Because while Texas will fight tooth and nail against paying money to make one of us better, it'll gladly spend tax payer dollars to make one of us worse.
In fact - those are EXACTLY examples of real problems out where I live. I dunno, Texas is a hell-hole, I'll be the first to admit that, and maybe people transitioning by mistake are the biggest problem out y'all's way.
But I bet if you go outside and play with others, you can find some bigger problems than the ones being discussed in this thread.
I personally observed the following problems of members of my local community just this evening:
1. Trans women suffering from autism
2. Trans woman of color who suffers from bipolar / schizoaffective disorder
3. Homeless trans woman of color who lost it all thanks to Meth. She'd been in and out of transition for years.
I could go on - but you get the idea. Maybe "tough love" would've saved all these women from the horrible situations they face. I mean, I thought about telling them the cold hard truth "you probably shouldn't have transitioned unless you are fairly well off, white, and abled." But call me crazy - I did the following instead:
1. Talked to the autistic woman about the therapy program I'd helped her enroll in
2. Took the schizoaffective disorder girl back to a more quiet room, where she could gather her thoughts, and actually hold a conversation with me. I ended up finding her a ride home, which I bought the gas for, because she was too freaked out by all the excitement in the meeting to figure out the bus schedule.
3. Put the homeless woman in touch with a member who works for one of the homeless agencies in the area. No dice for tonight, but we'll try to find SOMETHING for her. (Yeah, I had nothing for this one. Sucks - homelessness here is a really nasty problem.)
I also gave a new girl a set of breast forms and a bra, because she had NOTHING, and me and my fellow committee members gave away a year of free HRT to three people, two legal name and gender marker changes, some binders and a wig, and, oh yeah, top surgery to two deserving trans people, one dude, one chick. (No, I'm not kidding about this stuff, me and several others worked all year to make this happen - we've helped out about 20 people in this way - not nearly enough, but it has used up essentially all the money we've been able to raise, and most of the service donations we've been able to beg.)
I point out all the above not to say "oh look, I'm so awesome" because I'm FAAAAR from awesome. I fail people. I fail them a lot.
But I do at least go out once in a while and look for real problems. And every once in a while, with the help of others, a solution comes up. Sometimes it even helps. Go figure.
Oh, and lest you think the stuff I do out in the real world is irrelevant to this discussion, I've helped quite a few people I've met here. Yep. Met one of them in person and talked to her on Sunday, in fact.
Now if you'll pardon me, I'm going to call and check on a suicidal trans woman I know.
P.S. Homeless girl found her way over to my condo, so apparently I'll continue to deal with her, too.
Paula you bring up 3 examples that are not exclusive to Trans individuals. There are far more Cis individuals as a percentage that suffer from the conditions you just described. I will agree that having GD can complicate those issues.
Hell, since terms are so unimportant. I should never have started facial hair removal. I should not have come out to anybody especially family and work. Should never have changed my legal name. I could have saved a ton of money on electrolysis, and FFS.
I would declare to the world. I'm a woman. Accept me as one. Life would have surely been a lot easier. I would still be married. I would still have a healthy bank account.
Come on this is the TS forum. We should have least be able to agree on authenticity. No? Full time should mean full time. Out to all. Out at work ( or unfortunately unemployed at work because you are authentic). Legal name change. (Yes there may be some that have difficulty or no money. But if you don't change your name. Don't complain you aren't treated as female. ).
You can argue all you want here how unfair it is. The reality is how does society deal with it. In a perfect world. The Cis population would be supportive, accepting and heat us with open arms. But they don't. They think we are mentally ill. They respond with ridicule, hatred and violence. We are lower than the low.
On this forum we don't usually hear from those that are disadvantaged. I know a girl has been whining about the treatment she gets from medical practitioners. She whines about people addressing her with her male name. Well guess what her name is still legally male. She has all kinds of excuses. She won't be able to collect her inheritance. She doesn't have the money. It's too expensive. And the list goes on. In NJ it costs $250 for the court and 100 bucks for the newspaper affidavits. Add in another 100 bucks for the NJ Treasury and other misc. Yes that can be an obstacle. But after 3 years. No excuse. You can collect aluminum cans to scrap to raise that amount of cash. Many want the easy way and don't want to work for it.
I have a Cis female friend that is unemployed, her home is in foreclosure. She has no money, no idea where she is going to live in 2 weeks after she is evicted. She doesn't suffer GD. But her life is no less easier because she doesn't suffer GD.
You can't blame all your life troubles on GD. Transition cures one thing and one thing only. Your GD. If your are unemployed before, you will still be unemployed after. If you have an affinity to abuse drugs or alcohol, that will be there after transition. If you are Autistic before transition. You will be Autistic after. The list goes on. Life goes on. You still have to deal with life after transition. My experience "full time" transition introduces additional stressors that may not have been present prior. If you can't handle life prior to transition. The odds you can handle life stressors any better after Transition are slim to none.
Some people are afraid to post here. WHo would disagree with that?? I wish they wouldnt but so be it..Quote:
Originally Posted by whowhatwhen
thats not a different opinion
i wonder if you understand the meaning of the word opinion...
...what you do is try to tweak members with petty little passive/aggressive comments..you did a good job of it on this thread
---
and Paula you are projecting big time... discussions over authenticity are and mental asylums are far far apart..
i'm sorry to say the issues you are facing in your corner of the world are outside the scope of a forum like this sometimes...
and i find it pretty presumptive of you that you assume those three things you did are not done by others outside of the scope of this forum
i have easily spoke to thousands of physician assistant students, i have volunteered at the local trans center where homeless and young TG folk spend time, i have donated money and written letters and helped people get their name changed without paying a lawyer..
This is one of the safest places you are ever going to find, sweetie. We support each other. We share experiences, successes and failures. If someone challenges you, then that is the basis for questions... we all have our own headspace and our own situations. None of them invalidate yours.
- MM
No, Paula. You got it completely wrong. That's not what the OP is about at all. Not even one bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
Impressive job patting yourself on the back, though. :D
And yeah, what Madame Moose said!!
Absolutely.Quote:
Originally Posted by mechamoose
A gender transition requires a resolve that doesn't exist in someone who can't overcome the fear of an internet forum, especially one as heavily moderated as this one.
Some people tend to mistake being treated with respect for being treated as an authority figure, and when you don't accept their authority, they complain that they're not being respected.
Paula, the problem of the fantasy driven (among others) transitioning isn't that it's a big problem in the big 'ol real world. That's a self-limiting problem with a few high-profile exceptions. The FORUM problem is the noise it introduces in the perspective and advice given to actual transsexuals and people actually transitioning.
Well-expressed re authority and respect, Misty. I like the formulation.
There is a special problem with transsexualim when it comes to authority. That is, the most knowledgeable people on the topic are transsexuals, most of whom are not researchers! The average doctor has little to no real perspective, never mind training on the topic. When they do, it's narrow (endo, surgeon, therapist, whatever). And even they are often not current. When the very best (and I really mean exactly that) you can muster is a bunch of armchair experts, recognize that the only way they got there, at any level, isn't just because they are well-read. It's because being pushed HARD by challenges is needed to make-up for lack of holistic perspective that long and rigorous training yields. It's a poor substitute that leaves loose ends and holes everywhere, but that's what we have. Expect challenge and refutation. Welcome it.
Do I owe you any favors? I don't think so. I never said it was a rule either and I will respond to what wish when it suits me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anne2345
I try to be respectful to others here, I was to you too. You have obviously been very offended though and are angry at me for it. Hope you are able to get over it.
Funny how some of the challengers are not so good at being challenged even just a little.
Thanks for the PM by the way. It was very sweet ;-) Do you send others that you don't agree with those types of messages too or am I just that special to you?
(Am I being passive aggressive?)
I think we are discussing different aspects of dreams/fantasy. One is unrealized - yet realistic - possibility. This serves as an important internal driver, even when it FEELS unrealistic or unachievable. The other is escapism. It doesn't drive toward solutions, it drives away from them. There is a place for that in life, too, but not here, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahcsc
I do understand your point on logic and empathy. It is a balance for which I strive but don't seem to hit often enough. My need to be rigorous and exhaustive produces writing that is perceived as aggressive and intimidating, unfortunately.
As far as the forum's purpose, it is nominally support and on transsexual topics only. The need, from a support perspective, isn't coaxing people from dream to realization because the problem that typically presents is confusion. Fantasy interjects primarily in the form of unrealistic, escapist scenarios when it comes from these people. Its continuance is enabled when people feed it.
So what about the realization of real things, then? Support for this happens ALL THE TIME HERE. Why doesn't anyone recognize this? It may be as gentle as encouraging someone to go out, to experiment. It can be experiential when people recount how they got around their fears. It can be consoling and forgiving when it comes to failures and backsteps. But it doesn't happen until a measure of clarity and need has emerged, nor should it. To encourage someone down that path before they are ready is dangerous and destructive.
As I recall, you are a doctor. If so, I hope you won't be offended by this, but giving medical advice, whether presented in factual form or not, is never a mere presentment of facts. In any event, I didn't say he pandered ... I (effectively) said he did not. Your self-indulgence (better than "pandering" I think) point is valid and that does happen regularly in the forum.
This site is a great site for people who are transgender and struggling with where they fit on the scale. I too first came to the site because it was a cross-dresser site and I didn't know if I would ever be able to transition. I had tried a few times, and was forced to abort or face some consequences I wasn't willing to accept at the time. I just wanted to be able to meet and discuss with other people like me.
When I joined the transsexual forum, I had still been living in my birth gender, and was struggling bitterly over it. I'd already had two heart attacks and a stroke because I had stopped caring about everything. I didn't care that my weight was out of control, I didn't care that my health was bad, I didn't care that I was alone, locked in my "iron mask" trying to avoid any real conversation about my by maintaining a barrage of diversions and isolation tactics. My wife knew I was transgender and accepted me as a cross-dresser and non-transitioning transgender person.
I had established feminine accounts for myself as Debbie, and began to realize how much better and happier I was as Debbie.
When my dad told me "Be yourself, even if that means being Debbie", it triggered something. I started paying more attention to the transsexual group, I began to watch as others shared their experiences at various stages of their journey. I had actually been considering suicide prior to joining this group. At one point, I had even mixed a "Prestone Cocktail". I realized that if I was willing to drink that, I was willing to give up whatever was necessary to be happy in this life. This group made it a real possibility that I could transition, and I wanted to so badly it was literally killing me.
I really need to thank everyone in this group for all of the inspiration and support that you have shared with me and with each other. I have tried to share some of my experiences to help others.
This group understands where we are and where we are going as only others who have "been there" could know.
I just want to chirp in by saying I am just starting my journey and there times I'm still not sure what to do. But I was willing to step in front of a bus. I had reached the point to me something has to change. I look to you all wonderful girls for guidance and stories support the can make some sense. I don't know how this is going to play out I only want to fit in. I also know I'll never pass but who caries. I'm still in the army reserve for 5-7 more years so fear and omg what my fellow Soldiers are going to think. I have hope of the change is coming to make it better.
Erika
Those of you on the 'transition' path have my utmost respect. Changing your identity is no small thing. I will stand up for any of you to make it a safer place.
I hate bigots...
- MM
You may care a lot down the road. That environment is probably going to be more challenging than most, or maybe not you never can tell. FFS can do a lot for a woman though.Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikaS
In a word, NO, there is never justification for attacking. As for challenging, there are methods by which this can be done in a gentle and caring way.
I have watched you grow for a few years now Anne, and I hold you in high regard, a role model in many ways. Are there things you have said and done that lessened your value in the moment? Of course there were, but you were under tremendous pressure from both within and externally. No Anne, you did not deserve to be attacked!
It is my belief that the best coaches, mentors, teachers, etc., do not employ attacking or belittling tactics, and they are very skilled in the way in which they challenge.
Just my thoughts, Carlene.
Like Erika, I'm just starting out on this crazy journey. (Actually I'm a little behind as I'm not even starting the medical stuff for another couple seasons in case I chicken out.) There is so much that I don't know, and I'm sure I will ask some pretty dumb questions along the way. If I say anything that shows my rank ignorance though I'd expect to get called on it. That's really the only way to learn, right?
Y'all ladies can be a bit intense, but I get the feeling its coming from a place of love.
ok here goes..Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikaS
you mentioned being a trans ambassador in another thread
turn it down a notch... you don't have to fly into the sun to make your life better..
you don't have to be super tranny to help people..
what you want to do is brutal and intense...it will lay you bare and challenge everyone around you...
i like your positive energy and hope for change..
i think maybe you should set your goals a bit lower...your goal should be to survive and thrive...and then you will find out who you are...then you will find out what transition actually is and what the daily grind is really like..
what are your next steps for yourself...what are you specifically doing right now to make this happen for you??? that's where your focus needs to be.
and stay away from buses!!!
Where is the Like button? Kaitlyn, that is the best piece of advice I think I have seen on this forum. Bravo!!!
We should create an alternative Hall of Justice with Supertranny, Superfluous, Superabundant and Supercilious!
This is definitely something for me to contribute! (although I think it is way off the OP...)Quote:
Originally Posted by LeaP
Sadly, I agree with your appraisal that authorities in this matter are not very knowledgeable on this topic. But that begs the question, how knowledgeable should one become before one is deemed knowledgeable? Experts in schizophrenia often admit that there is still a lot they don't know despite a century of research.
I read a lot of the medical/psychiatric literature around this topic, along with autobiographies, sources from this forum (ie. Anne Vitale), and speak with some experts in my area who deals primarily in gender dysphoric individuals, I've even been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and I still feel like I don't know enough.
Awhile ago, I was accused by one of my patients who has gender dysphoria of not understanding her. I just nodded and remained silent. She probably interpreted that as "me not understanding her too."
I agree that one's internal world is forever exclusive. Nobody can understand anybody completely except to come to an approximation.
But that begs the second question, how well should we know each other to be of help?
The endocrinologist may know little about gender dysphoria, but he helps with HRT. The surgeon may know nothing about HRT, but he performs the surgery. The therapist may have no medical knowledge, but he helps us explore our sexuality and come to terms with GD. Each of them have a very narrow understanding of GD but you need them all in order to transition smoothly. Are they not helping then?
I think you put matters well and I agree with you regarding the dreams/fantasy topic, the support perspective, and the realization of real things.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeaP
I am not offended by anything. :)
I like your concept of 'confusion' which some people present with. The question is, who decides if they are 'confused'?
Do we decide if a person is confused if they present with an idea which seems unrealistic according to our standards?
Do we then attempt to re-orientate them to reality by challenging them? Are we assuming ourselves to be the ultimate authority in this matter?
I guess we can exert ourselves as the 'authority' in this matter but bear this in mind, we are not surgeons, endocrinologists, or therapists.
We are not trained to evaluate the suitability of surgery the way a surgeon can, or the safety of taking HRT, or the psychological conflicts at play.
We cannot perform surgery, prescribe HRT, or engage in therapy with others.
All we have, is a set of experience unique to ourselves which cannot be generalized because everybody's experience is different.
If you argue that the surgeon, endocrinologist, and therapist have a narrow understanding of GD, which I agree, then how narrow is our understanding of GD except when it pertains to ourselves?
I would argue that unless you are a SRS surgeon, a TS endocrinologist, a gender therapist, and an individual with GD, you can't claim yourself to be the 'authority' in this matter. Right?
Just trying to gain some perspective here.
Love,
S
...you are aiming for something that is impracticalQuote:
Originally Posted by sarahcsc
Most of us know plenty... and although we don't always know medically, we deal in a practical and pragmatic reality..
Does somebody want my advice?? I really can't worry about that
The more time you spend pondering the imponderable and searching for unknowable things, the more time you waste..
surely over time there will be more research, we can know more next year than last, but its 2015
If you have gender dysphoria, what are you gonna do about it??
that's the battle..
and we know that transition beats GD, we know that people can mitigate even without transition but it won't go away... we know the world dehumanizes and marginalizes us...
we know many many success and failure anecdotes about transition and frankly i think we know enough to give good solid PRACTICAL REAL LIFE advice...
I realize we are all different, we all focus on different things...i am nothing if not pragmatic... i had srs surgery and all i knew was to stop my hormones and pick a good doctor...i focused on beating GD to help overcome my shame and internal transphobia...
others will look at every detail of the procedure but there are bottom line things in life...some will get so caught up in this that they sputter and suffer
there are also risks...i wish it were different... transition carries many risks
....however i think one of the most misunderstood risks is to NOT TRANSITION... i say this because of how many people hit 50 60 70 and get slammed by their next level of dysphoria... the inability to predict whether this happens and the inablity to take a blood test for it (i wish we could) means that the PERSON HERSELF HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY to themselves to figure out where to go and what to do...
what is the 50 year old extreme GD suffering going to tell her wife after 10 years of saying i love you so much i am not going to transition?? the 60 year old after 20 years of fight fight fight...ask Caitlyn Jenner...
You pull the pin and get divorced in most cases. I only see accepting supportive wives in this forum. I have seen no experience of wives staying with their transitioned husband's in my area. There was a woman in my support group that stayed married for 3 years post-op, but divorced last Feb.
In a self-help community, people share what they "know", have read, think, etc. When people draw conclusions across thinly populated knowledge areas, it gets dicey. That's why experience weighs so heavily. This is very unlike a single topic in which one has been deeply trained. That, in turn, bears on your questions about SRS surgeons and others. People like that will typically have expertise which the layperson cannot touch. It is too narrow for us, however. I doubt that the cis perspective of the average SRS surgeon is of much help when it comes to whether an individual should pursue SRS, what it will do in their particular case to relieve dysphoria.Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahcsc
The point on people presenting confused is much more straightforward. They tend to say it outright! Do a search on thread titles! I wasn't talking about judging people as confused. I was talking about taking them at face value.
For those lucky people who fall into the latter group, participation here is definitely difficult. A member describing their smooth experience will bring out those who had more difficult experiences, eager to "set the record straight" and "keep it real."Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahcsc
Very true. Rather than try to make things as easy as possible for others who follow, the emphasis is almost on making sure that everyone has faced the same trials. Why should one have to descend into the pit all the way to attempting suicide before doing the things that will help us? Divorce, while common, isn't inevitable and it is harmful to those honoring their commitments to say that it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahcsc
That's for sure. When I originally brought up the subject of attacking other members I didn't mention anyone by name, but who were the most vehement responders?Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahcsc
My father liked a saying that I later found was first said by Eleanor Roosevelt:
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.
Discussions about people tend to have the word "you" in them quite often. While the word cannot be avoided entirely, in civil conversation it is best to limit it as much as possible.
The reason smooth sailers are challenged were the ones that turned out to be fake. How would you suggest we make it easier for those contemplating of undergoing transition. Telling those individuals what a bed of roses it is to live their life authentically. The harsh brutal truth is uprooting your life and family can and sitters result in since serious life challenges. It is not like dressing for the weekend.
My transition has been relatively easy. I was ridiculed, but never assaulted, verbally or physically. I am employed. I continue to own and run my own multi million dollar Electrical/ Mechanical business. I have lost very few friends and have made tons of new ones. My parents, siblings and children accept and still love me. I am divorced, but we get along and work daily as she is part owner of our business.
That said. It has been very difficult. It has been expensive. The first year full was easy. Living as a tranny is so much easier than integrating and living as female. My 2 nd year full-time has been more difficult which I will detail in more detail in another thread. There are other members here whose transitions border on fairy tale. I don't see them getting set straight. They are doing the hard work. Their circumstances allow for a smoother transition.
I will still disagree that your opinion of what it is like to transition is much value about what to expect unless you are actively or have transitioned. You can experience segments of transition and kinda get a feel. But until you go full-time all the time. You can't know.
That concept of experience holds true for anything in life. You can read about open heart surgery, procedures, complications etc. But you can't know how you will react until you do it.
I don't know what forums you've been reading, but they are not on this site...Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahcsc
Or to be more precise it is exactly this kind of deliberate misrepresentation of what is written that causes the problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahcsc
My experience with this site. I was welcomed. I ask for advice and received it. Sometimes I liked it sometimes I didn't. What I didn't do was confront with hostility and I received none in return. I still like it here but mostly just as an observer. I will post occasionally but mostly only do so in my journal now.
Edit here
Just was wondering. Does anyone here think that perhaps the reason some of us have an easier time of it is because of those that went before? Many come here for help and guidance and it may be/have been you and your knowledge and resources that help someone else avoid some of the pitfalls. To those that helped me THANK YOU!!
Post-transition forumites.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eryn
Well, I was going to sit back and read as I tend to stay out of the more contentious threads, but lets see what I can add on where some of this is going.
As I have probably said far too many times, my transition was great. I am out some money and time and that is it. So how have I felt about the general feel here as a person with a "good" story?
First, there were some different people here when I first started reading the Transexual Forum to gather my thoughts then there are now. One was a particular pain in my nether regions and I don't miss her. Way too full of herself. I am here to say that she absolutely propogated the sense that anyone not as far along as her was beneath her. So I certainly took in comments back then that I thought were seriously in the "you can not possibly understand my experience you little turd". When we had the last major exodus, the ones that were like that left and that was before I had announced my transitioning.
During the start of my transition, I did feel that the sense was that you had to be where you could not continue in order to reach the point of transitioning. It was embedded in my mind I know this for sure because it was what was on my mind during therapy sessions and caused me the most trepidations, not real experiences. And it also was what worked on me post transition as I kept wondering when the hammer was going to fall. I am not saying that was a direct line said to me, but the composite input of all threads left me with that takeaway. Rianna was the first to jump in and say that I didn't need to feel that way and my path was valid. Then Kelly. Then others. Those comments helped settle my mind some, but the general thought remained with me. So my sense then was that the outward appearance was that you had to be at the breaking point, but the hearts of everyone wasn't so rigid. My guess then is that those who hadn't yet transitioned, just weren't seeing the other perspective as it was probably not a topic far too often.
Through my transition, the support was great and informative, There would be the occasional person who would say something I knew not to be true like a marriage could not possible survive in its previous state of being full of love and sexual attraction. Those people would get me irate and it consisted of people who had transitioned and who didn't, so no one group was totally clear of this behavior. I will always say that anything is possible, it may be a minority but you can't discount other people's experience.
This thread in particular and the one it forked from are examples of why I stay out when it gets contentious. I am not one that likes to enter the fray, although I might joke around like posting the flame proof suit. It just is not my style, which is fine. We are all different. But I am seeing some posts that are probably more combative than the authors normally write and I think it is the topic bringing it out. So read only mode tends to be a good choice for me.
One recent thought is one I disagree with in the way it seems to be getting presented. I was "full time except for work" for a long time. I know I didn't get the full experience and could not possibly know how it is being full time. But I think I did get a lot of the experience and I also believe that was a great path towards my transition going so well. Many people already knew Sue and I had already achieved a high level of comfort. Yes I had anxiety over work and that was because I value my job (who doesn't?). But I think we are overshooting the target and not giving enough credit to those that are out and about all except for work as they are getting an education and they are getting used to a level of discrimination and the stares. I have a lot of friends that are "all except for work" or middle panthers and they have a lot of experiences that are just like mine, minus the work ones. It depends how much they are all in on the non-work part of it. And this comment is from one that did live full time except for work, transitioned, and has almost a year under my belt. Yes, I know I have more to learn. That is probably the main thing that keeps me here as I sometimes wonder if I should stay.
BTW, there are multiple people here who have met me or talked on FaceTime/Skype, so I am not like a certain person no longer here. :D
Just another way of doing it,, If your out everywhere but work that just means you havent went all the way an you are STILL TRANSITIONING !! If you are out all the way at work and EVERYWHERE than I guess your DONE? Maybe I am wrong but that is the way I see it? Hell I see folks that are Cross dressers and are in real early stages of there transition and I feel sorry for them in my head,,lol,, Even though I am still a Rookie but I am that much further than them. Who knows how far you will make it? See most people can't or don't have a lot of money to stop working or they couldn't do it,, An if they have insurance that is a Big one,, So they have to stay stealth to make the insurance pay,,lol,, Hell I don't blame them one bit. Like I said do it your way because you are the only one that knows you better than anyone.
Eryn your broad generalizations simply do not hold water...
you color everyone with your broad brush and its you that is a big part of the problem.
here's what makes me laugh..
here some of us are, talking about how hard it was to make our way as women, sharing stories, jobs issues, marriage issues, shame issues, money issues....
and you are here talking about how you don't want to hear it... but you want to talk about how hard it is to feel comfortable posting on a message board forum about it....
its literally hilarious
Except some of us have met in RL and can vouch for each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nigella
I have been on this site for a long time, right through my actual transition. I have been through a lot of ups and downs here. Yet, overall, it is the information of a factual type as well as the recounting of the experiences of others, which has been of the greatest value. I owe those behind the site's existence and those making it work, day by day, a debt of gratitude. Thank you.
Considering that there have been 95 posts in three days in a thread that began simply by quoting my assertions there seems to be considerable substance to what I wrote.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
The ironic thing is that I did not start this thread. If Anne had not decided that my post from another thread was worth quoting the discussion would not have continued.
Problem with 'full-time except for work' is that it's an oxymoron, however I get what you mean, I am guilty of having said that in the past and the reason is this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue
Ok, so you are not fulltime, we know that, except when I was 'part time' it was serious, I did absolutely everything as a woman (just couldn't do work just yet, had to change job and settle in a bit), so I did well over a year where I faced every single situation as a woman.
Yes I was part time, but the problem is a lot of part timers pick and choose and often go to male for trickier situations, I didn't. I think 'full-time except work' although clearly wrong kinda separates from the non serious.
So when people say I'm 'full-time except work', I realise it's not the correct wording but I understand the meaning behind it.
And because my experience outside work was the real deal, it set me up well for full-time, work went smoothly because I was ready and prepared.
I think that's a very different experience to a lot of the part timers. How do you differentiate, without saying anything less than full-time is to be almost dismissed?
But you see, Becky, you are falling into the same trap as those who want us to believe that full-time-except-work is the same as full-time.Quote:
Originally Posted by becky77
I don't doubt that you were serious, but you did not face every single situation as a woman until you were out at work. Before that you didn't experience any of your work situations as a woman.
True, not the best wording then. I was trying to say the experience although not fulltime encompassed many aspects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rianna Humble
For example buying a new car, I bet most part timers would go as a guy, I didn't. My philosophy was there is no turning back full-time, so the part time should be the same.
As I said other than work (which is the big defining change for sure), all other stuff was as female, not just a weekend away or shopping at the mall or drinks with friends.
I think there is big differences to the levels of people's experiences before full-time, that part time doesn't necessarily capture.
I've heard so called fulltimers that go back to being male to face a particular difficult situation or relative, I didn't do that part time let alone full-time.
The issue isn't the experience it's the quality of that experience.
Because so many non-fulltimers avoid the more challenging situations, there is a tendency that only full-time can be taken seriously.
Ok, here's the point where I have to chime in. I know it's just a phrase, but the notion that non full timers dress as men when convenient may well imply a lot of things. It may mean we aren't ready or willing to risk our employment. It may mean we haven't yet decided to transition. It may mean that our presence here is all an elaborate and pointless hoax. However, except for the latter, I would hope we might be taken seriously.
Our experiences and our aspirations are (generally) valid and may be as helpful to people contemplating their identity and their future as the experiences of genuine full timers.
Sue's case illustrates the point. She did eventually go full time, but before that elected come out first in her social network. She could have done it all at once, but her sequence of actions seems, thus far to have worked pretty well for her. I know...it's a unique case, but then aren't we all?
I put the "full-time except for work" in quotes because it is an oxymoron, but it is what we are using and we all seem to be in the same ballpark on what it means and that includes some (me included) who had avoided certain situations. Maybe we shortcut to FTEFW? :-) Mine were simply if I got up on Friday morning and had an appointment I could run as a guy and come back and get ready for the day. So it amounted to the mechanic, dentist, and optometrist. I admit I got soft when it was easy to be soft. So I agree with Becky on her comments. There is a difference in FT and FTEFW, no doubt.
There are two thing some of this comes down to though.
First, each person's experience is different than others. My FTEFW went years and I know I had more experience than some people at their point of going full time. I think in trying to tell those currently in FTEFW that their experience isn't the same, we lose the thought that they are gaining valuable experience. It is a big deal to have a lot of the social aspects and a large percentage of the coming out already dealt with at the point of transition so you can focus on work, paperwork, and other things and have the overall mental burden lower.
Second, each person's life is going to be different. One of my catch phrases is we each have our own trans-life, our own trans-story. There is a local that has done a lot in the community. She is a CD and is presenting for what I perceive to be all activities except for heavy exercise (she likes long bike rides across the country). I recognize her contributions and her experience. What gets under my skin is her telling people what is trans* and what isn't. For example, the first time she got my attention was pre-transition, but I was thinking about it. She said in a group that once you start thinking about it, if you ever stand to pee, that is your sign to stop and turn around. How many of us wouldn't transition because of that "rule"? This last week, she was knocking a transitioned lady for wearing a pink, frilly top because it sent the impression to others that it was all about being girly.
So my overall point is that we are recognizing what FTEFW isn't and there is a lot of value in that recognition. I think the points coming back are what it is. Both parts are relevant and the "what it is" part seems to be getting minimized and I think it is important to recognize the value.
Jeeez Anne, can't you write about tacos or something??? ;)