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Here is an abstract thought. Male bathrooms are hard for males as sometimes when we are at a urinal the hair comes up on your neck and you are watching your back as you do not feel comfortable. Yeah any one else ever felt that. So lets see I am a woman trying to pass in the public. Heels skirt, nice top long natural hair. If i am dressed that way why in the world would i walk into a male bathroom.
Privacy and cleanliness. Privacy isn't really an issue in the women's because of separate cubicles which just leaves cleanliness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenniferathome
Yeah there's some filthy women but it's far less likely than the men's.
The irony of a female only space is that it's actually less safe imagine late in the evening and a guy follows a woman into an empty ladies, she is now very vulnerable as there definitely won't be any other guy in there to help. If a sexual predator wants to risk violence he doesn't need to dress in women's clothes he just needs to await an opportunity.
I don't know of any of my female friends that would go alone into a public toilet late at night, same with getting into a cab on your own.
Safety is not the issue here it's just a red herring to flame hate.
I've never seen a CDer acting up in the female toilets, seems a rare thing to me and therefore simply incredible it should be such a huge topic.
My experience is only in the UK though and we're pretty polite and reserved generally.
In an ideal world washrooms would be gender-neutral and there wouldn't be any problem. In our less than ideal world, where the possibility of violence against those who do not conform to gender norms is real and significant, personal safety becomes an issue. Given that our society teaches both women and men to reject non-traditional gender presentations, it comes down to a practical decision by the male CD as to what level of hostility he's prepared to accept in picking a washroom - quite frankly, the CD generally runs less risk of harm in the women's facilities.*
Once the choice is made, the risk of causing concern to the women using those facilities is then dependent on how well one 'passes' (also related to perceived gender markers and lack of acceptance of non-traditional presentation) - if nobody recognizes you as a man, there's no real (i.e. practical, as opposed to theoretical) issue. While I think that, in theory, male-identified CDs should use the men's washroom and putting on a dress in no way 'entitles' one to enter a women's space, the actual choice is a series of decisions based on pure practicality - risk of violence vs possibility of causing offence or discomfort. I think these are pretty much the same issues faced by trans people in their bathroom choices.
* I concede that gender power dynamics might also play a role here, in the sense that a male CD in a women's washroom may be less likely to generate an actively hostile response simply because he is a man, i.e. intimidating or perceived as dangerous.
Becky,
How quick you were to lump gender identity an sexual preference together (they are separate and unrelated) and you twice state denial and deep denial in your choices. how did you come to learn of this denial condition?
Zooey,
Which space would you feel entitle to use if you look like a man but are really a woman and there is no concern for your safety? Both spaces are guaranteed safe and equally clean, but you would be open to ridicule and you can be approached about why you are in that space? when you enter that space everyone will know that you are not presenting for the space you are in.
could a CD here question why you feel entitled to enter this part of cyberspace when you don't meet the stated criteria? Now of course we do welcome all here so that isn't a problem.
Hi everybody. I can't respond to everything that came in overnight, but there are a few points I'd like to address (a bit out of order). I really am trying to talk about this in the abstract, because while I recognize the safety issues men in dresses feel and the practical realities of what works/is enforceable in the case of bathrooms, there is a very interesting can of worms being opened here and there are things that IMO should be questioned and reconciled. I'm talking about "women's spaces", rather than a more specific example, because this is the can of worms being opened. If A is okay, then why not B? If B, why not C? And so on and so on.
It is a slippery slope, and I want people to understand the gravity of what's actually being discussed right now in the context (mostly) of one space. We are discussing whether women are allowed to have spaces free of men, and vice versa.
A lot of people here want this forum to be a men's space, and bristle any time a woman is present and deigns to insert their honest perspective on what's being said. Meanwhile, a lot of men here feel that we are stuck up or superior for not simply accommodating them when they come in and disrupt in the TS forum, too often saying some really hurtful things about women, and especially trans women.
Yes, I can. Women's social groups, women's fitness classes/clubs, women's retreats, women's organizations in the workplace, etc. All of these are examples of women's spaces. Many of these spaces exist to provide comfort and safety for women, whether that be physical or the freedom to express ideas that too often get them in trouble when men are around. At what point are women not entitled to have spaces free of men? Is it the point at which a man decides they're better off in there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy Fakley
So, to the extent that men may feel entitled to choose a women's space, should women feel obligated to accommodate? Are we obligated to help those who are, by your description, literally trying to avoid "getting caught" by letting them in because they may have an easier time of hiding in our spaces?Quote:
Originally Posted by wbdavid
Why do you feel personally uncomfortable with doing so?Quote:
Originally Posted by wbdavid
Why? The outer door is where the indicator that says "women's space" is located. Again, I'm actually fine with switching bathrooms in particular to be gender neutral and taking down the signs, but that door currently demarcates a women's space. Why do you, as a man, get to redefine the borders of a women's space?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenniferathome
Some of you are purely sexually motivated, and that is especially problematic when considering entitlement to women's spaces, but my personal belief on the matter is that many of you are not men. You aren't necessarily women either, but you're not men. If a bunch of you were to suddenly start talking about it in those terms, and consequently stop defending your manhood both directly and by discussing femininity and the lives of women in such demeaning regressive ways, then we would find ourselves in a very different place. The more often somebody asserts their identity as a man, the less reasonable it would seem to be to allow them into a women's space, regardless of what they're wearing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephanie47
Like masculine-leaning women around the globe, I would use the women's spaces. I would also expect to get challenged if I am presenting in a way that is in stark contrast to what's expected. Anybody who chooses to buck convention too much should expect stares; it's the price of truly being yourself, and I'm very familiar with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarasometimes
The rules of this forum in particular are very clear. If there was not a rule that specifically told me that this was the place for everybody to discuss general issues, then I would not be in here, or at least would feel really hesitant about doing so. Believe it or not, I already DO feel hesitant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarasometimes
i do not identify as a macho, "male privilege" male. In fact i have always been single, a virgin, and considered gay by some. I do not like the term "male privilege". As many males i know have done suicide, over rejection, loneliness, being misunderstood, tortured mentally and emotionally. Who has to go signup for selective service, for the draft,in case of war? So much for equality!! Who pays for alimony, and child support, after divorce, often forced to live in their vehicles, because they won't have enough money for rent?" There is a place near Rockford, Illinois, called "Womanspace". No place called "Menspace! There is just as much "women's privilege" in this modern time, as there is "men's privilege", only a bit different. Sorry i got off the topic just a little. Truth is, no one knows the heart and soul , mind, and intentions of each crossdresser, and for that matter, any other person, regardless of gender! There are a tiny number of CD pretenders, who really are going into ladies rooms, to take photos, put mirrors down low, to peep. But they are not true crossdressers at all! They give all of us a bad name, and make women angry at all of us. I am a blue collar, but a bit feminine male, but pretty much ASEXUAL. I have little libido , and even when i had a women want me to have sex with her, I could and would not do it. Everyone of us dressers is different, a little or a lot, just as every real woman is different a little or a lot. I have used single use ladies room, in drab, but one time, boys chided me for using the wrong restroom!! I told them it was empty, and when you got to go, you got to go! I feel somewhat like a woman, when presenting as one, dressed modest and ladylike, and I would consider it extremely hazardous to my health, to go as Alice into a multi-use men's room. I try to avoid multi-use restrooms, period! I also think all multi-use restrooms, should have totally enclosed stalls, mening doors annnnnnnnd walls from ceilings to floor, no gaps, for COMPLETE PRIVACY!!
I didn't lump them together, I used each as an example of denial. The sexuality example is much easier highlight, never said they were related.
I know all about denial been there done that and recognise it in others.
We are taught to feel shame about anything that contradicts masculinity if born a man.
Are you talking about bathrooms only, or do you mean to include other spaces like fitting rooms in a dress shop?
I, as a crossdresser who makes no effort to present as a woman, have never entered the ladies room. But I am a frequent user of fitting rooms. Before doing so, I always ask a staff member if it's OK. I have never been refused. In fact, I am most often met with an enthusiastic "Yes!" Does this count as an abuse of male privilege?
Vickie CDTV. Well said. A mother with small children in the ladies room, will be far more fierce, if she detects a man in a dress, than most men in in a mens room! I also would rather hold it all day, that go into a multi use ladies room, Unless i knew for sure, it was empty. Leaving a ladies room, after doing my business, would be less hard, than entering one, not knowing if moms and kids, or other females were present. I would never consider entering a girls or womens locker room. That is surely a womens space! Vickie, Right!
This is some serious MRA junk right here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice Torn
Of course you don't like the term "male privilege". You're a man, and to admit that you have it causes you problems. Having privilege does not mean your life is easy, or that you don't have problems of you own. It just means you have privilege in certain ways. Male privilege is unquestionably a thing, and your claim of women's privilege is frankly silly. Women do have privilege, but our privilege does not extend to institutional and systematic benefits in the way that male privilege does.
Except that we are not talking about the vice versa are we? What is the title to this thread? Oh yeah, that's right - Male Entitlement to Women's Spaces. Which is clearly leaning towards the idea that men feel an entitlement to anything they want, because they want it. So really we are talking about male privilege right? The privilege to take anything they want whenever they want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey
Are there still spaces that exist solely for men, completely devoid of women? Because some men feel a need for comfort and safety, whether that be physical, or the freedom to express ideas that too often get them in trouble when women are around? At what point are men not entitled to have spaces free of women? Does it sound sexist when we reverse the genders?
I personally think it sounds sexist regardless of the gender. Maybe that is because I am one of the few who considers themselves as existing outside of the gender binary. Maybe because of that I see many of these binary gender discussions for what they are - divisive and sexist.
Word, Nadine 😊
I don't redefine it as a man nor as a cross dresser. That little sign says, "if you look like this, enter here." If it were really a "woman's" space, it would have a picture of a woman's brain. But, since all brains look alike, the next best thing is outward physical appearance. And PRIVACY is what dictates logical usage. If the original intent of that little pictogram was for genetic women (and I am sure it was), how then do you, as a trans-woman, justify using that space?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey
So, let me ask this of you Zooey. I will use two members here as examples because both have written about their physical changes: Suzanne F and Melissa (Bad Tranny). Suzanne has no external male genitalia. Melissa still has her penis. BOTH are women who identify as such and live their lives as such. Both enter the local women's locker room at the gym and strip naked in the changing area. Are both equally accepted by the other women in the "women's space"? Will both be equally comfortable being naked in this woman's space?
It is simply not enough to state that how one identifies is the criteria for entry to a "women's space." Privacy is paramount in the discussion. I completely understand that you want to separate yourself from cross dressers. You show that in everything you write. Between your ears, you are a woman and between mine, I am a man. But no one can see between our ears. So logic dictates that we choose the next best alternative: outward presentation. When my outward presentation is male, I follow convention that would include NOT using a woman's locker room even when cross dressed as my OUTWARD (naked) male appearance would dictate such.
Legally in the UK public bathrooms are legally considered a public space and as such the signs are merely guidelines. Women often flout those guidelines when the queues in the their toilets are too long and nobody bats an eye lid so why should iy be any different when a man wants to use a bathroom with a picture of a woman on it. If it was up to me I'd make all bathroom gender neutral.
Absolutely agreed, and this is where some self-reflection and consideration for others is important. Any person (male or female, but we all know it's mostly males) who enters any space (gender-segregated or otherwise) for non-consensual sexual purposes shouldn't be going there in the first place. In the context of this discussion, however, I'm going to assume that people just need to pee.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey
Why does a woman get to redefine the borders when the women's is full up and she really needs to pee? I realize that's not quite the same thing because there's a power imbalance when we're talking about men accessing women's spaces and vice versa, but my point is that there are occasionally situations in which the rules are bent (either way). I consider the issue of personal safety for CDs to be one such instance simply because their gender presentation (though perhaps not internal self-identification) blurs those lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey
I unequivocally agree that many other women's spaces (e.g. open changing rooms, women's shelters, support groups, etc.) should restrict access to those who identify as women, with no obligation to accommodate. The importance of having unique, demarcated and safe spaces for marginalized groups (women, POC, etc) is expressed very well in Chrystos' poem Those Tears. But bathroom access for gender-nonconforming people - CDs included - is, I think, somewhat of a special case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey
Nadine nailed it in her closing comment. These hair splitting topics are nothing more than divisive and sexist.
Sure there are. And no, it doesn't sound sexist. Some people who decry 'political correctness' simply want to be able to freely express their misogynist, racist and/or homophobic ideas without the risk of having those pesky minorities nearby to call them out on their BS. Safe spaces for women are places to escape sexism and misogyny, whereas 'safe spaces' for men are places to express it. Not the same thing at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadine Spirit
First, if that little sign is based on presentation, then should butch women and women in pants be going in there? The original intent of the pictogram was "women". I obviously believe that, through further science and learnings, we have expanded the definitions of both "men" and "women", but they are still the defining gate for those spaces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenniferathome
Very interesting question, as I happen to consider them both friends, on and off this forum. So, I'm going to be obnoxiously direct about their situations by way of example here, because I know they'll understand when we talk about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenniferathome
IMO, Melissa looks more conventionally feminine (passable) than Suzanne does, ignoring her genitals. Suzanne has a vagina. If you saw both of them and didn't see their genitals (because they changed with a towel), then many women would be more accepting of Melissa. If they saw both their genitals, many women would be more accepting of Suzanne. So, in the end, I think they are both equally accepted on average, with differing experiences in individual situations. How comfortable THEY are in there is up to them. Nobody can rely on others to make themselves comfortable.
Also, to be clear, both of them are beautiful.
Personally, I agree that it's not enough to simply state your identity. I disagree that outward presentation is the next best thing, because we actually do have a way of legally recognizing gender identity, given certain reasonable criteria are met.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenniferathome
As I told Allie, I have no problems with our law in California that uses outward presentation, and would vote for it again, because in practical terms it doesn't cause a problem and solves a few, even if it does create some philosophically uncomfortable cases. That doesn't mean it's not worth exploring the philosophy.
Zooey, With all due respect, if i had been a "normal" male, I would have violated the woman i was with, and had sex. i respected her privacy enough, and I remained a virgin, and have not had any sex, with any woman i dated. I am sorry you are offended. I know it must be very difficult for you, and you have issues with CDers. But TS were all CDers at one time, too. Why not try the Serenity Prayer. Higher Power Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. A good idea for all.
Zooey, you said "Why do you, as a man, get to redefine the borders of a women's space?" My question to you is, do YOU as a MAN get to define the borders of a woman's space?
You may feel, & identify, as a woman, but you are not, nor will you ever be, a REAL WOMAN.
Shaedow,
A REAL GG
Alice, declaring that "normal males" can't help but to violate women sexually when the opportunity arises is not helping the case of men here.
Fortunately, I do not consider you or what you're talking about here to be representative of the men here.
Wow. Troll much?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaedow
Ah, Shaedow... There it is.
I will never be a cis woman, but I am a woman. Some cis women feel this way, and there's likely nothing I can tell you to convince you otherwise. I currently have effectively no testosterone, run on estrogen, live and work as a woman with all the accompanying bullshit, and my doctors agree that I am predominantly female in all respects except reproductively, but yes - I was not born with a uterus, ovaries, or a vulva. Nothing I can do will change that, and I'm sorry if it's not enough for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayo
Just so you are aware, Mayo, I am not a troll but a legitimate GG member of this forum who chooses 99% of the time not to respond. But, sometimes, I just cannot tolerate some posts.
Personal question zooye and feel free to not answer it but before you became the women that you always knew you were and we're transitioning what bathroom did you use and if was male did you feel safe in it? I think we as women have a softer more excepting side to us and most of us don't mind!