Male Entitlement to Women's Spaces

[Zooey]

Hi everybody. I can't respond to everything that came in overnight, but there are a few points I'd like to address (a bit out of order). I really am trying to talk about this in the abstract, because while I recognize the safety issues men in dresses feel and the practical realities of what works/is enforceable in the case of bathrooms, there is a very interesting can of worms being opened here and there are things that IMO should be questioned and reconciled. I'm talking about "women's spaces", rather than a more specific example, because this is the can of worms being opened. If A is okay, then why not B? If B, why not C? And so on and so on.

It is a slippery slope, and I want people to understand the gravity of what's actually being discussed right now in the context (mostly) of one space. We are discussing whether women are allowed to have spaces free of men, and vice versa.

A lot of people here want this forum to be a men's space, and bristle any time a woman is present and deigns to insert their honest perspective on what's being said. Meanwhile, a lot of men here feel that we are stuck up or superior for not simply accommodating them when they come in and disrupt in the TS forum, too often saying some really hurtful things about women, and especially trans women.

oh dear lord. "women's spaces" ... can someone name another "women's space" other than a restroom, locker room or changing room? I can't.
We say we're discussing this in the abstract, but we're not. We're talking about freakin' bathrooms.

Yes, I can. Women's social groups, women's fitness classes/clubs, women's retreats, women's organizations in the workplace, etc. All of these are examples of women's spaces. Many of these spaces exist to provide comfort and safety for women, whether that be physical or the freedom to express ideas that too often get them in trouble when men are around. At what point are women not entitled to have spaces free of men? Is it the point at which a man decides they're better off in there?

As crossdressers most of us are afraid to tell our friends and families let alone some person we don't know so going into a men's room scared the crap out of them . If you had a secret you wouldn't tell the person closest to you and it could be revealed to several strangers by simply walking into a room how would you feel about going into that room? Or you can go into another room and your secret is more likely to stay safe. Which would you choose?

So, to the extent that men may feel entitled to choose a women's space, should women feel obligated to accommodate? Are we obligated to help those who are, by your description, literally trying to avoid "getting caught" by letting them in because they may have an easier time of hiding in our spaces?

To the point I don't use woman's spaces for the most part, the exception being a woman's only clotheing store I may use the changing room to try on clothes. Not because I feel it is wrong but because I am personally uncomfortable doing so regardless of how I am presenting. I will make every effort to find a restroom where I can be the only one in there or I will use the men's room if I have too.

Why do you feel personally uncomfortable with doing so?

The outer door is NOT the definition of where the space begins.

Why? The outer door is where the indicator that says "women's space" is located. Again, I'm actually fine with switching bathrooms in particular to be gender neutral and taking down the signs, but that door currently demarcates a women's space. Why do you, as a man, get to redefine the borders of a women's space?

Or maybe why do I or any man choose to wear a dress anyway. There really is no logic for a man to wear a dress, is there? <snip> Can you really give me a reason why a man chooses to underdress? Is there any reason for a man to head off to work with a bra and panty and hosiery on? I bet you do not have an answer for it. <snip> What ever causes me to wear the full armor of a woman; bra, panty, slip, hosiery, dress, heels, wig and makeup does not materialize with underdressing. <snip> I do not wear women's clothing for a lark. There is an innate need for me to wear women's clothing and portray myself as a woman...on occasion, but, not full time.

Some of you are purely sexually motivated, and that is especially problematic when considering entitlement to women's spaces, but my personal belief on the matter is that many of you are not men. You aren't necessarily women either, but you're not men. If a bunch of you were to suddenly start talking about it in those terms, and consequently stop defending your manhood both directly and by discussing femininity and the lives of women in such demeaning regressive ways, then we would find ourselves in a very different place. The more often somebody asserts their identity as a man, the less reasonable it would seem to be to allow them into a women's space, regardless of what they're wearing.

Which space would you feel entitle to use if you look like a man but are really a woman and there is no concern for your safety? Both spaces are guaranteed safe and equally clean, but you would be open to ridicule and you can be approached about why you are in that space? when you enter that space everyone will know that you are not presenting for the space you are in.

Like masculine-leaning women around the globe, I would use the women's spaces. I would also expect to get challenged if I am presenting in a way that is in stark contrast to what's expected. Anybody who chooses to buck convention too much should expect stares; it's the price of truly being yourself, and I'm very familiar with it.

could a CD here question why you feel entitled to enter this part of cyberspace when you don't meet the stated criteria? Now of course we do welcome all here so that isn't a problem.

The rules of this forum in particular are very clear. If there was not a rule that specifically told me that this was the place for everybody to discuss general issues, then I would not be in here, or at least would feel really hesitant about doing so. Believe it or not, I already DO feel hesitant.