Anne! I am so proud of you! First of all for you being you! Second, for starting a cat fight thats out of control! Love you! Now what did I do with that bucket of water! Hugs!
Anne! I am so proud of you! First of all for you being you! Second, for starting a cat fight thats out of control! Love you! Now what did I do with that bucket of water! Hugs!
This is quite an interesting statement, Joana. The only thing you have said all along is that I can do better? Hmmmm, let's check the record:Quote:
Originally Posted by Joanagreenleaf
This was your first response to my post entitled "My Closet is My Blessed Sanctuary. Is your?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Joanagreenleaf
This was your second response to my post. And your third and final post I placed within the body of the OP herein.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joanagreenleaf
So is this REALLY all you have been saying? I have reviewed your posts several times, and it is funny, but I simply cannot find any constructive advice within your posts at all. All I see are ugly, hateful, and intolerant words.
Do you even understand the intent of the post you are currently replying to? You have yet to address your insulting words in any manner whatsoever. Have you even read the responses herein that agree that you were insulting and dismissive? Have you no compassion within your rigid stance? I still do not understand how I am to accept your posts for what you claim - that you are merely telling me I can do better.
Yes, Joana, I have noticed that people with weak arguments resort to arguments against the person. In fact, you are the primary culprit here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joanagreenleaf
You have no argument, other than your opinion. You generically state that if we all come out together, we will take the day and society will accept us. You have failed to offer any substance to your opinion. You have failed to cite any authority for your opinion. You have failed to logically pursue any cogent progression of thought, or analysis of consideration, within your statement. Instead, you tell me and the closet crossdressing community that we are residents of "Loserville." Do you even understand the concept of debate and civil discourse?
Moreover, what experience and expertise do you base your opinion on? Are you an elected official? Are you a community leader? Are you an activist planner? Are you a scholar? Have you even met a member of your state's legislature? Are you a consultant? A professional strategist, perhaps? How is it that you, and only you, know what is in the best interest of the closeted crossdressing community? Even beyond that, how is it that you, and only you, understand what is best for me. Your stance equates to the epitome of arrogance. Arrogance that is based upon ignorance and intolerance, which makes for a dangerous, volitile combination.
Women, gays, and minorities have been fighting for decades and centuries for equal rights. They have yet to achieve it. The obese are discriminated against. The overly thin are discriminated against. Ugly people, poor people, and uneducated people are discriminated against. If there is a subgroup of people out there, someone is going to discriminate against them. So how is it that you have all of the answers, where no one else does?
Are you an attorney? Are you well-versed within the law? Do you know what a "protected-class" is? In theory, the law protects certain protected classes from discrimination, based upon factors such as race, gender, religion, etc. Has this ended discrimination against such people? No, it has not. But guess what, gender identity is NOT a protected class. If one resides within a state that practices at-will employment, were you aware that an employee can be fired for any reason, a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason at all? An employee, however, may not be terminated if the termination is based upon a reason associated with the protected class, but being transgendered is not protected. In the United States, we are free to discriminate at will, as long as we do not do so against a protected class. We ain't a protected class.
So what is your plan for achieving equal rights and acceptance? Merely go out in public in numbers? What about legislation? Have you ever spoken to a member of your state's legislature? Have you requested certain bills be placed on your state's legislative agenda? Do you lobby? Do you even understand the legislative process, and the politics of it all? Are you planning on running for office yourself?
Ever heard the phrase "perception is everything?" There is a reason why many politicians hide skeletons in their closets - because they know they will not otherwise win an election. And if our own representatives are hiding their skeletons, what makes you think they will be willing to take up such a potentially controversersial topic as transgendered issues? Some have the courage to do so, and more in time will. But not because someone like YOU calls them up and says if you do not take up this bill, you are a citizen of "Loserville." You need more than that. You need an actual plan. You have yet to articulate any. Unless, of course, your plan merely is to insult those who disagree with you. And good luck getting anywhere with that strategy, because that always works, right?
You are quite naive in your assessment of me, and the situation in general. Again, you know nothing about me, and from what little I know about you, and your style of "debate" and "discourse," I already know more than I care to know about you.
You state I can do "better." Your definition of the term "better" must be quite different than mine, because I think I am doing pretty damn good as it is.
Going back to the intent of this thread, again, you have yet to address your ugly, insulting, and offensive words. Do you plan on addressing the issue? Or is it your intent to continue down the low road?
I merely ask that members respect each other, and debate and discuss their differences and opinions with class, diginity, and respect. I am heartened by the vast majority of the responses herein. There are many fantastic members, and hopefully those members that are less than respectful will take a look in the mirror, reassess, and treat their fellow members, regadless of perceived differences, with kindness.
I like reading every word of Anne's posts, FWIW. I'm really glad she's here and participating.
> I consider this a support site as opposed to an activism site. Perhaps the mods could set up an activism section?
> I don't care if crossdressing is widely accepted in my lifetime or not. I still go out when I feel like and that makes me happy. In fact, I like the rush of being a woman out and about. I do what I want regardless of the haters. I'm unbelievably happy in my life (evident in my photo?) and I consider that a pretty good definition of success.
> I think Pythos is awesome. Such honest effort to clarify thinking is so wonderful.
The rampant illogic that is flowing in this thread astounds me! Let's see if we can straighten out some of it:
Let's take one typical CD: Here she is, completely open with her SO, respecting her SO's limitations (which might include not announcing her feminine self to the world), and yet, some in this thread see this somehow as a negative effect on the perception of the transgendered!!! ???
HELLOOOOO!!! If this CD is completely closeted, NO ONE knows about it, and therefore has absolutely NO impact on the population in general!! They are completely transparent! Only actions IN PUBLIC can affect a public perception!
Sheesh.
Secondly, someone who is completely transparent to the public cannot be faulted for anything negative. Effectively, in the public eye they don't exist. No one...and I do mean no one...has the right to tell them how to run their lives or even cast a negative glance in their direction. They are hurting no one!
In fact, those who are unhappy with closeted CDs are being very effective about helping them to STAY in the closet by being negative about their decision to stay there. It would only be encouragement, and not castigation, that will help more CDs to venture out into the public arena.
So, what do we have: We have a population of closeted CDs who hurt no one, and we have that same potential army of people who might make us a little more visible in the population (hmmm, how are we visible when we wish to "pass" .... hmmm???) but who will only be helped to go into the public eye if they are not scolded about their choices.
Thus, why not say something like, "I fully support your right and decision to keep your transgendered nature as a private part of your life. I do hope that you can continue to help shape people's opinions about transgenderism in a positive way, and if the desire to venture out into the pulic arena strikes you, I hope you feel you have the support of all of us to do so."
Might that not work better?
tina
That's exactly what I feel. When I first joined, there was one very vocal person with the opinion that society, family, marriage, and everyone else be damned - they were going to go out there to change the world, and if the world, family, and wife didn't like it, well then, too bad! She definitely put the 'ack' in activist, so to speak. :) If you didn't share her views (the horror!), she would unapologetically tear you down to let the world see what a spineless, good-for-nothing waste of a pretty dress you were. What a sad, bitter person she was. She only seemed happy when she was 'debating' someone else. Pity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda22
Amanda, I'm like you. I dress for fun, not the future. I dress for me, not for those to come. Short-sighted? Slighting the generations to come? Perhaps. I say let them fight their own battles. It'll toughen the little sissies up! (tongue in cheek, people. Climb down :)).
Kathi
[SIZE="2"]I’m not singling YOU out, Pythos (I hope you know me better than that), but your words did jump-start my reaction. It may sound like I’m addressing you personally, but you happen to be on one side of this discussion, and I’m on the other. Up until now I never actually saw this closeted vs. “out” conflict – I had heard about it only through the words of other members. This is ridiculous, counter-productive, non-supportive, and makes one feel that crossdressing may not be worth the effort in the first place, if this is what the “community” is all about. Saying that a closeted crossdresser does harm to the transgendered community in some way is like me, a semi-closeted crossdresser, boldly stating that those taking their expression to the streets is somehow injurious to our “cause.” Equally ridiculous, wouldn’t you say? I would never dream of saying such a thing to another crossdresser of a different feather, but there you go – I’m conscious that there are other types of CD’ers, all with their own agenda, according to what each individual desires to achieve. There are PLENTY of closeted crossdressers on this site – I’ve probably been out and about more than most of them, but I’m not going to use that fact against someone who may have good cause for remaining in the closet. A few closeted souls will not make a huge difference to our community as a whole, IMHO. The fractious nature of this lonely island should be the #1 issue for discussion here, and it’s downright alarming, to say the least…Quote:
Originally Posted by Pythos
PS - I'm sorry it takes me so long to reply, but the closet IS comfortable...:heehee:[/SIZE]
[SIZE="2"]I think you’re comparing apples to oranges, unless you are inferring that crossdressing needs to be placed alongside other addictions like gambling and alcoholism. Are you? Have you ever considered the fact that "hiding" may help the one who is hiding? I think it’s a major accomplishment to take pains to NOT hurt someone, and that, by itself, should be regarded in a positive light and recognized as such. Of course, I should talk – I don’t have a SO, or children, or friends to hide from. I’m interested in self-preservation, not confrontation. Some of us are not cut out to be the vanguard you wish to be, but I respect your position on this divisive issue …[/SIZE]Quote:
Hiding DOES NOT help anyone. It helps continue the idea that crossdressers are ashamed of what they do. They are hurting NO ONE, and yet they hide as if they are committing some heinous act. Meanwhile, the drunk ruining the family, or the gambler wasting the money is COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY out in the open!!!.
Whether a CD is closeted or out shouldn't really make a difference should it? We all have to have forms of self-preservation to mantain our identity. We only tell certain people about certain aspects of our lives. Not everyone knows the situations I face b/c I am selective or "closeted" in whom I choose to trust with my personal information b/c misuse of it could bring harm to me. If a CD isn't comfortable then who is he hurting until he decides to come out? I would think it would be more devistating to him to come out before he is ready.
All is as it should be and until the time we are ready to change then we must do what we must do to survive.
Well said tina
What a Novel idea. Lend support while expressing hope for the future. I Think someone should start a web site called Crossdressers . com. A place for support and acceptance. A place were we don't have to be afraid of being attacked when we express an opinionQuote:
Originally Posted by suchacutie
See how ingenious it is to just stick to the OP and make a response without being negative.
Oh well I doubt it will ever happen simply because some have become Queens.
Drama Queens that is
Anne,
If you don't want to participate, you don't have to.
Your call on how much time and effort you put into this discussion, not mine.
Riiiiiiight!Quote:
Originally Posted by Joanagreenleaf
And when she puts lots of time and effort into it, you claim that you don't want to read it as it it too long. You are just a conundrum wrapped inside an engima, wrapped inside a troll, aren't you? I know you're enjoying this. :)
Kathi
+1 to Anne2345's fangirl count.
More substantially though, and this may be a consequence of life in a college town, but I don't see a need for activism and the like. I have never faced an iota of discrimination for the cross-dressing habit, but I treat it as a hobby and don't do it where it's inappropriate. I have no burning urge to declare to the world that, "I'm abnormal and you'll just have to deal with it!"
Regardless of transgender status, people have a responsibility to secure their livelihoods as well as those of their dependents. Such must take primacy over any idealism or cause. Clarion calls for self-sacrifice reminisce of a duly castigated idealism treated in Atlas Shrugged.
If people choose to behave unprofessionally, there is a pretty simple way to deal with them - don't feed the trolls.
I agree that there is need for reform as concerns the treatment of those deciding to transition or even walk around with dedicated facial hair while in a dress, but that's not my battle, and it doesn't seem to be Anne's either.
- Amelia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathi Lake
Kathi is 100% right. Why are you even here Joanagreenleaf?
I find it unbelievably stupid to even argue about this topic. Yet here i am contributing....
Life is all about dealing with the choices we make for ourselves
When, where, and what you do is a choice that you make for yourself. Anne, Dont ever let anyone make you feel down about yourself when you are perfectly happy with the choices you have made for yourself. Whatever choices you make, that define your own happiness for the better, are Yours alone.....Dont let the bigots that call themselves part of our support group ruin the happiness you have. Its is apparent to the rest of us that they are truly unhappy with who they are themselves, by how they post derogotory and negatively charged comments towards those who support them in the decisions they make for THEMSELVES....
Just to clarify.
Bigot : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group with hatred and intolerance
The support group is full of negative people from all aspects of the TG umbrella..negative comments like the one you posted in the OP are as abundant here as they are anywhere else on the net.....but there are some incredible people here who would support anyone in who they aspire to be.
Intolerance of another persons choices only helps to keep the hatred flowing in full force. No, "tough love" or "Hardcore reality dose" is going to have a positive outcome to another support forum member. By making such negative statements you are only compounding the problem of acceptance among our community.
Acceptance: the act of taking or receiving something offered.
So, Anne, Enjoy your choices... I support you.....and i accept your choice.
Trying to Teach Empathy,
-Donni-
Hi Anne,
I don't often reply these days... Like Abby, I have left Cding behind with "grace".... for a few this is the inevitable result of integration.
Your thread compells me to submit my opinion for your consideration; to continue,
Having been active with certain groups in the past, and having observed this forum for a year prior to my signing up, I have observed from time to time a "ringer" appears whose only purpose is to cause as much disruption as possible.
I have also read all of this persons posts, and it appears to me the writings exhibit little if any sense of compassion or regard to others feelings. The tone is abrasive and confrontational as he renders plenty of strong opinions. The approach and writing style is similar to one who was here about a year ago.
Quite frankly, anybody else's opinion(including mine) as to what brings satisfaction/happiness to you (or another) is entirely irrelevant.
However, there are plenty of members here who understand and relate to your current circumstances.
I have put the "culprit" on my ignore list and suggest you do the same. Feeding "negativity" is counterproductive.
Your sanctuary is your secret garden, and the placement of your gardens walls is up to you as well as to whom you let enter your garden. The garden will evolve on your terms...
Best Wishes, dd
WElllllll, that is until they get caught. Then it can be a very bad thing.Quote:
HELLOOOOO!!! If this CD is completely closeted, NO ONE knows about it, and therefore has absolutely NO impact on the population in general!! They are completely transparent! Only actions IN PUBLIC can affect a public perception!
In a means to prevent being :hwac: I am keeping my opinions :censor: :censor: and will just 'listen' to all the :chatterbox::chatterbox:...Its my only means to ensure it :wasntme: who :stirthepot: :stirthepot:
But I will say that I :cheer::cheer: the closeted..the supporters of the closeted and any citizen of 'Loserville'... :bighug2::love:
Nicely put Marissa! Thank you! I think I need a bigger bucket of water!
So many on here in this post seem to or are defining "closet" for which it really is. A place to hang clothes and shoes and all. Why is this going on? When the word "closet" is used in this post and the other post’s by the originator, she isn't referring to the "closet" in it's perfect definition in Funk and Wagnell. She is referring to staying home. And in that home where she is either King or Queen, the op is talking about staying inside and the safety of her home and not treading out into the public where so many of “US” are ridiculed and / or attacked, (depending on what area we live in),,So please for those on here that are participating in this topic, please ,when referring to the “closet”, please understand that the “closet” is the thing that crossdressers’ refer to when they are the stay at home types, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I mean how dare some of us go into
defining the “closet” as though some of us didn’t know. Hell, I think everyone on here that defines to us what a damn closet is,,,,is so insulting to our intellect., as to to define to us what the “closet” is. How dare these types.!! Just look back and you’ll see these people or types of people that go in to detail as to what a damn closet is. Check them out, it’s the ones that tell us that it is a small room that holds our clothes and shoes and other things. I know as well as many others on here what the OP was talking about when she referred about the “closet”. Are some of us so dumb that we lost what the OP was talking about when she referenced the “closet”, just to have someone here describe what a “closet” is? It ‘s like when some people say “jumping on the band wagon”. It’s not really wagon with wheels, how can some on here be so damn off topic as to define what a “closet” it’s ,like we do not know? Can we not get along here?????????? I’ve been on the internet before it was called the internet, and I have learned that you can be on any social site (sight), and on a beautiful; cloud free day, I could say(on the internet), “ The sky is blue”, and there will be people that will come back and say, oh hell no it’s not, it’s shades of grey, etc etc, etc. I used to think that as guys, we were ONE, then I learned we were not, then as a crossdresser I thought I had found my calling to a unique crossdresser community when I found this site, then found that we were just as diverse as the stars in the sky. I’m about love, honor, peace, dignity, morals, live and let live, brotherhood of man, sisterhood to sisters, family, friends, GOD ( Father of Jesus Christ), and yes, I even respect atheists , even though they argue their points of righteousness without ANY foundations to support their “opinions” about what they perceive as right and wrong. I’m not only somewhat ashamed or embarrassed that I’m CD, but just a little ashamed that I’m human. I understood the OP’s every word and thought; I was with her all the way with her every word. How could any of you be so disrespectful to this newcomer to this site? This question doesn’t apply to all, but how can some of you with a decent I.Q., come in here and define what a “closet” is? Like I or Anne didn’t have a clue? And why can some of you not ………….remember when you stayed at home fearing to go outdoors or from the “closet” Then those of you that go out all the time and say ,no one says anything to me., and then get on this OP Anne and crack on her for explaining why she prefers to stay in the “closet”. As a result of the many threads similar to this one, I feel so all alone again. It’s sad, so sad, it’s a sad, sad situation, and it’s getting more and more absurd, (Bernie Taupin). Do I belong here anymore or does Annie? I and we have a right to our opinions, there is no right and wrong. Let us all on here agree or disagree,,,,,but still maintain respect for eachother.
Love & respect..Tara Rose
I happen to fall into the, "It's much better to come out of the closet" group. HOWEVER, I don't feel I know a single person well enough on here, or their situation well enough on here to have the audacity to tell THEM what to do. There is a name for that, it's called "Arrogance."
If someone was telling me how to live my life, I too, would tell them to go pound sand.
I'll try to bring a different perspective to all of this.
There are different argument styles. Some forums (political or academic for example) can be quite confrontational. A stronger writing style, if well written, can actually score points. People well versed in argument can take a few barbs as well as dish them out. It's almost expected in some places.
CD.com isn't like that, obviously. We're a support forum even though we disagree on certain topics. So, I wonder if a newcomer who might be accustomed to a different forum culture, might not at first respond the way that he or she responds in different places? And then when confronted, might not see it as an invigorating exercise rather than realize he or she has hurt someone's feelings?
This may or may not be Joanna's case, I don't know. But, she is new. So, maybe after this thread we could see if she makes any overtures for friendship and if she does, then let bygones be bygones and start again on a new footing?
Just trying to be the peace maker here. :p
I'm in!Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
:)
Kathi
Joanna, How many people are using your account? One of the others, recently postedQuote:
Originally Posted by Joanagreenleaf
I'm not sure which of the two of you opened this account, but you should be aware that it is against forum rules to allow others to use your account.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joanagreenleaf
So I guess this is not the argument clinic.
"I'd like to have an argument please."
The moderator has suggested that I refrain from making certain responses to this thread, and I agree.
I refer you all to the new post I made yesterday concerning, "Living The Good Lie."
I think much of what is said in that article is more productive than most of the things being said here.
I have said, several times, all I can say about the OP's original postings. The long response by the OP about "Are you an attorney?" etc. will do nothing to handle the OPs personal issues at home - which I think need more of the OP's time than this forum does.
Time will tell how wise it was and is for the OP to write and expound on such topics as, "My closet is my sanctuary." Clearly it wasn't and isn't... I have serious doubts about the outcome of such a way of dealing with reality, and I have expressed them for the OP, and others, to consider.
This is a new forum to me, yet my impression so far is that it tends to promote and favor repetitive posts about, "I just got my first panties!" and, "Do you think she knows?" and, "Should I tell?" rather than encourage and support actual problem solving. Maybe the world needs that, maybe not.
In this case, the OP was "nearly" outed by a family friend, then spent several days defending the notion that they were/are entitled to stay in the closet they had just, or, nearly, been dragged out of...
Since the horse was already out of the barn, as we say here in Texas, arguing that the horse should have been left alone is a waste of of the OPs time and effort when it comes to the OP's personal situation. The "near" outing should serve as a notice to do something besides close and lock the empty barn's door.
And, there is no "next time" in the OPs case. Either the OP has been discovered, or, they now keenly understand they will be - and the price of not dealing with these known facts will keep going up... Fear... I can think of no other reason why the OP would drag this discussion out so long against myself and others, instead of work out a solution to a pressing problem at home.
The problem the OP has, as I understand things, is not ultimately the crossdressing, family, friends, or, "society." It is, as many other posts have shown, the deception being practiced by the OP against the OP, the OP's family, the OP's future, etc.
Frankly, I can see little for the OP to do other than either give up crossdressing, or, to change how crossdressing is managed in their life.
That's about all I can say about this particular thread and how it has gone - which is not a new topic or a new response in my life...
I've been discussing this sort of thing - usually brought about by some personal crisis like the OPs, for about thirty years now with any number of TS/TG/CD/Bi/Gay people - who would wish the world was different, but slowly have to understand that it isn't, and won't be, until they change.
Frankly, given the number of very wealthy and very successful gays and lesbians that most of us could list easily, starting with Ellen, Rosie, and Doogie, I am surprised that there is still so much "doom and gloom" about this sort of thing.
I do wonder, however, what will become of crossdressers in the next twenty years or so... From what I've seen of life, there will be less support or tolerance for CDs in the gay and lesbian community (among others), mostly because CDs bring too little of value to the gay and lesbian community, or, - because CDs are generally so tangled up in their own webs - to anyone else.
Really, this tempest in a teapot on this thread has gone nowhere because the closet is nowhere to go. Gays and lesbians are now openly getting jobs, buying houses, and getting married. CDs, already having most of that all along, are still doing very little to advance their own issues, so what use can they be to others?
I have been asked several times in this thread, "What are you doing here?"
Maybe not much more than serving as a target for those with, seriously, nothing better to do - and no place else to do it.
I have been asked the same question by people in the gay pride parades, several of which are coming up in my area again soon...
In the past, I have said:
"I'm here because anyone who crosses a certain line in life, winds up on this side of the line we're both now on."
I'm not changing my response to that question yet, but I'm thinking I may.
Crossdressing, as a subset of life, is beginning to look like an immature response to life.
I guess you can still learn something new every day... It may just depend on how much attention you pay to what goes on around you - not just what's in you.
"Yes it is!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Pythos
and
"No you wouldn't!"
Since gender identity and sexual preference are distinct, I often wonder how the "T" became part of LGB. But when you think about it, it kind of makes sense for those who lean towards the TS side of things. Yet if one subscribes to a gender continuum theory, you bring CD under the same umbrella and this is where your entire premise loses momentum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joanagreenleaf
You see, a person who identifies as LGB has had to make strides simply to live their life as anyone else. This includes the right to love who they choose to be with in the context of a heterosexual couple. This might include open displays of affection (as in holding hands) without scorn or ridicule, and more importantly, the right to cohabitate in a loving relationship while enjoying the rights, privileges as those by married couples. By definition, the LGB struggle is one which must be a public one.
In contrast, the person who identifies as a CD'er may not have any need in the least bit to leave the comfort and safety of the closet. If so, what does that person have to gain by doing ANYTHING they aren't comfortable with? There is no rite of passage to advance along some imaginary TG hierarchy by going out into the world. If one does so, terrific. If not, they owe the rest of us nothing.
The risks to family, friends and career which you trivialize are real, just ask anyone who makes the momentous decision to transition. If one who identifies as a CD is unwilling to confront those risks, whether real or perceived, who are you to suggest that they are doing a disservice to anyone in our community? These people owe us nothing, yet at the same time we can offer love and support in a forum such as this that may lead a few to test the waters in the real world someday. The difference is that they'd be doing so on their own volition. Brow-beating won't encourage anyone.
Sara Jessica.....you pegged it sister! 100%.
And I really don't much care if I'm not of any "use to others" when I crossdress. I'm not in it to be of "use" to anyone.
Sheesh! The arrogance! :rolleyes:
And again we see the same tired argument about how successful gay people have become, and how little progress has been made in the crossdressing arena. This whole thing has nothing to do with gay people. Crossdressers, while lumped in with the GLB community have little in common with them, unless they happen to be gay crossdressers. Most of us are not, and even those that are often see little commonality between crossdressing and GLB issues.
Rosie and Ellen? Please! I can barely stomach either of them to begin with! And that has NOTHING to do with their gender orientation.
I rarely go out. Why? Well, I can begin with my wife. She knows I crossdress, but she's not real thrilled about it. Out of deference to her, I don't push the envelope too hard. I value my relationship with my wife above most other things in my life. Openly prancing around in public in a dress would do my marriage irreparable harm, harm that can be easily avoided. By staying home, I can have both a really good marriage, and still enjoy crossdressing. There is also my career. I have worked hard to build my own business, and it's entirely likely that most of my client base would find their computer support elsewhere should it become public that I like to crossdress. Like it or not, that is the fact. I'm not willing to become a "gender warrior" if it means I have to sacrifice all that I have worked to achieve. There is the respect of my friends and neighbors, too. While I may feel I'm doing nothing wrong, I don't care to be the instrument of their re-education. I could lose much, like the respect and friendship of those I know and love, while simply keeping my private life to myself leaves all of that intact. Does this make me a coward? Or does it make me wise to realize that I do not further my own happiness by beligerently throwing my crossdressing in the faces of everyone I know?
I like being at home. It is my sanctuary. It is my choice to stay there (usually) when I crossdress. I owe nothing to the GLB or the T communities, and I ask for nothing from them in return. I give them my respect, and only ask that they do the same for me.
Anne.....you rock, sister!
Closets are not just for clothing. They are places where we store things we want to protect. For many of us that means crossdressing is being done only in the closet to protect ourselves and others from having to address the wider issues that just seem to grow naturally from that disclosure. I have my home as a closet and I go to Tri-Ess meetings, but that is just a closet on a string. I go out in Las Vegas, but that's just a bigger closet since I am still not sharing my crossdressing with my children and grandchildren, my old friends and other family members. They are comfortable with the image they have of me as Dave and I see no need to run them through the complexities of having to learn about Sarah. They all know I am supportive of the GLBTQ community and they will incur my wrath if they misspeak or pass a hasty judgment. They don't need to know I'm part of that community before they show respect, in fact it may be better for them to learn this way first, so if I do come out it will only reinforce the lessons already in place.
So, we strive to create our personal comfort level and place in society. I consider myself still in the closet even though I dress outside the house. That's my comfort level. When I'm outside the house at Tri-Ess or DLV in Vegas, I try to make sure I behave in a way that is consistent with gaining support for crossdressers in larger society. I don't desire to go out on a daily basis en femme and for much of what is important in my life it isn't needed or appropriate. My closet has many door and many rooms, but it fits me fine for now. I'll remodel when I'm ready, not when someone wants me to fit their image of what a crossdresser in 2011 ought to be. What everyone else does or doesn't do is their choice and I encourage everyone to evaluate your comfort levels, how you support other CDs and what constitutes your personal closet.
Next topic?....How about this...."Why do you hold angst for those who choose to be who they want to be"....or...."Why do you feel the need to push your ideals onto others who are happy being themselves"
Those should be your topics.
I feel you are missing the point because you cant see the light in your own heart. The OP was never concerned with your dilemma as an idealistic person, however you seem more than happy to push negativity towards others you dont agree with. Unhappiness is manifesting itself into these ideals of "Your whats wrong with Crossdressing" attitude. In fact the finger pointing is only making the true fact of the matter more clear. Saying that the closeted crossdresser is hurting the community of the open crossdresser is ludicrous, and you know it. If you want to support others here, then find a better way, then deferring your own negativity onto those who are happy with being who they choose to be.
Maybe a more positve approach to getting your points across is what we think you need to work on.................. otherwise you are hurting us all as crossdressers by being a negative part of our community.......
Be nice or be quiet,
-Donni-
hmmm, someone brought up an intersesting angle for me.
I will be absolutely honest. When I was much younger, my family was out on a family outing. We visited the point Benitia lighthouse, and in the line to the structure, just ahead of us were two men holding hands, and talking to one another. At that time I had no idea what a "gay" was, but I could see these two were upsetting my dad, and to an extent, my mother. Not too far from those two men, was a man and a woman, also holding hands, and were acting much the same as the two men.
I noticed how my parents had no problems with these two, but how under his breath my dad was calling the two men "disgusting".
Well, when we got back in the car, he let loose. "How dare those two faggots do that in public in front of my son!!!" He yelled this to my mom, who just remained silent. "They don't need to do that outside their sick bedroom!! They should have been arrested" Then silly me piped up "but dad, there were a lady and man acting the same way" His response "THAT'S DIFFERENT!!!! Those two freaks should not be doing that outside, they should keep it in the closet, or better yet die!!!"
My memory is blurry of the actual conversation, mixed in is the kinda crap my dad spewed when he was angry about people he did not like, but the overall gist is there. He felt that those two men should keep things "in the closet" a term I did not understand at the time. I later learned that MANY gay couples keep their love "in the closet" and like some here felt no need to get out. I will need to do some research, but I think many of the arguments favoring being in the closet echo what is being stated here concerning us. I may be mistaken but the ones that were out of the closet viewed those that were deeply in the closet as something bad when it comes to gays gaining their freedoms.
This may be at least for me where I get the thought process that those in the closet don't help anyone. It is a bit harsh and I am backing off of that stance and am doing more thinking on the matter. Recalling this ugly piece of my history has opened more areas of thought when it comes to why I think the way I do.
Sadly, for a while, my dad's views rubbed off on me, and I felt gay couples should keep it in the closet (for approximately two years I thought this way)
Tara-mxy,
your reply reflects my own opinion and...emotion about being told AGAIN that "a closet is a place to put clothes and not a state of mind." Circumstances in my life also prevent me being open about my cross dressing. So being told here; a place I come for advice and knowledge, that there is nothing to fear or that nothing will go wrong if I walk out of the house en-fem does not know my situation or even my emotional state.
Sara Jessica,
You have very clearly and politely posed some very good questions to the "brow-beaters" in this thread. Thank you.
Some of the commentary that has come out of some groups on here AND in other forums has angered me and sometimes even offended me. I haven't replied in these cases because I feel that just replying to tell people this is not a worthy contribution to the conversation. Yes, I am aware of the total hypocrisy of writing that (and my previous reply in this thread) but I would placate that hypocrisy by saying I was pointing out three well thought out posts, not just saying "I'm mad / offended" and walking away. In other cases, I do not post my point or view or report a comment because I respect the person's right to post.
This thread has brought this issue to a head so I feel it IS appropriate to voice the fact I am angry or offended at some people's comments about closeted CD's or even some one like myself; the (gasp!) lingerie fetishist. Many of us started this way and I do experiment with clothing and even makeup. The reason I don't CD as much as I can when home or haven't "progressed" on to even accepting "my desire to transition" is purely because those feeling aren't there. (These are actual comments I have seen, I could find them, with time, for people who want proof.) I feel some people forget they once belonged to one of the other groups here and start dispensing advice and opinions from their outlook, not really trying to asses the situation from the point of view of others involved.
If your opinion differs, that's fine. If you wish to enter into debate about something, please do. But bring some substance to the conversation.
i fail to see the point of cleaning up the pig pen if you dont also clean up the hogs in the pen.... that said, why put effort into your looks and your feelings if you dont go express that effort to others.... seems like a serious waste of time to me...
and its clothes.... do you truly understand how little people care about how others dress..... nobody has time anymore to complain about how someone else looks....
Well said, Pythos! I have many friends who are gay, and actively support the LGBT organization at my workplace (even though I am "in the closet" about my CDing to almost all of them). In conversations about gay rights history, I learned about what you discussed. There was a conflict between those who were in the closet and those who were out. The ones in the closet wanted to be left alone and felt that those who were out were stirring up trouble and anti-gay sentiment, while the ones who were out were crying "We could use your support, we're getting killed out here." In the end, I'm sure most of the (formerly) closeted gay people appreciate what the movement has done for their lives today, but that doesn't make them "losers" for not participating. People who are willing to risk their necks for a righteous cause are heroes, but it isn't particularly heroic to condemn the people you're saving just because they are not as brave as you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pythos
We are part of the LGBT umbrella because we are facing the same issues. Many people have the same hatred and misunderstanding of gender identity issues that they do of sexual identity issues, because for most people there is no difference. Violent bigots aren't going to treat a crossdresser vs. a transexual vs. a homosexual any differently: we're all targets. If the populace becomes educated about what it means to be gay and begins to see it as benign, that opens the door for a similar progression with respect to gender identity.
I think those of us who are in the closet should be thankful that we have people fighting for us: whether they are lobbying the government for protections or simply going out in the world and making a good impression. Those who are out shouldn't get their panties in a bunch because someone else isn't willing to take the same risks, or perhaps has their own personal issues to contend with. That person may be doing their own part in a quiet way by changing the hearts and minds of a few people close to them, or by speaking up when they hear someone speak of CDing negatively, or by donating to TG organizations.
I am gradually feeling the pull to be more open about my CDing, and to try to make a positive difference for others. However, I have a family and career to worry about and I must calculate my risks. Maybe, I am doing as much good by being the "straight married guy" that stands up for LGBT rights as I would be if I was the "nice guy who turned out to be a tranny" that stood up for LGBT rights. I should point out that this is my decision and my decision alone.
I consider you transgendered because you admit that you 'cross-dress' which is a transgendered activity.Quote:
Originally Posted by kendra_gurl
FACT: The word transgender is an umbrella terminology that identifies those who are gender diverse or who
also might have a different gender identity to their birth sex. This includes cross-dressers or transvestites,
drag queens & kings gender queer, androgyny, & pre-op & post-op transsexual & intersexuals
So stop being in denial - You are transgender if you are a cross-dresser, no matter how part-time you might be.
How do you draw that meaning from 'Transgender'?Quote:
Originally Posted by VioletJourney
Trans= to go from one place or thing to another
Gender= is your sexual identity as a male or female
Therefore 'Transgender' really means to go or change from one sexual identity to another
My efforts to create a feminine look are still experimental at best. I only own a few dresses and not a whole wardrobe; I have these primarily out of curiosity. Even with my best efforts I still just look like a bloke in a dress (as us Aussies would say). It is sometimes deflating to do all this work then spy myself in a mirror. But if I can't look feminine, I don't want to go out in the wider world - I'm a perfectionist that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkijo
Plus, I do enjoy wearing a good suit every now and again and I like my goatee beard too much to shave it off for an afternoon in a dress.
This is another comments that I was referring to in my earlier post. The kinds of comments do not take into account a person's location and it's cultural or legal precedences about gender issues. In some cases these comments are just regurgitated without any personal experience backing them up.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkijo
It's not just clothes is it? Even if you are post-op TG and look as feminine as any genetic female; the conservatives of the world will disagree with you at best and try to remove your human rights at worst. God forbid you are a man who just wears a dress with no efforts to portray a feminine image, you are confronting social norms and being non-conformist even more so.
While Australia, like the US is a largely open democracy in general, there are places you still wouldn't go out as a man dressed in women's clothes, no matter how feminine you look. And while we have laws to protect some one's rights (that are even stronger than US laws) the conservatives of the world will do their level headed best to make it difficult for you.
These are pretty general and anecdotal comments I know but the do happen, there are examples here. I my case even IF I could perfect a feminine image to a standard I'm happy with and even IF I was going out in a place open and accepting; there are aspects of my life that would be jeopardy if I did so. As it is one I can say is that I'll be living in a small regional city; we all know places like these are even more conservative. Please trust my on this one as even being here and being vocal could be taken into consideration. I am probably being more concerned about these issues than I have to be, but after being told that even the RISK and POTENTIAL of something happening is of great concern, you get a little twitchy.
ANOTHER common statement that really annoys me. I apologise to you Melody but you happened to be the person who posted this while my buttons have been pushed. When people say they are CD and not TG, they are refering to themselves and their lifestyle. It's done as a form of short hand when describing your own personal situation when required. I describe my activities as cross dressing at best, please don't tell me I am in denial because I don't say I'm TG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melody Moore
There is also talk here sometimes about how the human nature is to try an categorise everything. We then try to not do it to other people in case we cause offense. Why then write something like your post? It's rather condescending. We had just finished talking about people who throw the dictionary definition of closet around. They might be doing it as away to try to explain that not being more open and introverted is a just frame of mind. But there are better ways of going about it.
Why is this place called Crossdresseers.com and not Transgendered.com then?
I don't care what anyone calls me. TG, not-TG, CD, non-op TS, whatever. I don't understand why people are sensitive to labels. We're all just who we are, nothing more or less. To me, labels are for others, and I don't care what they do with them.
You just do not understand Amanda.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda22
If they can't classify themselves and find a way to make themselves feel superior, then they wouldn't have anything to to fuss about.
I don't think you get to capitalize "fact" like that when talking about something as changeable and subject to common usage as the definitions of words. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Melody Moore
A transsexual is someone who has felt all her life that she is in the wrong body, and therefore seeks to become the other sex. People hear transgender, and they interpret it the same way: Someone who feels that they should be the opposite gender and wants to live that way full-time. You can tell them all you want to that some group of doctors out there decided that "transgender" would be an umbrella term for all people who cross or touch the gender divide, but it's a waste of your time. Popular usage is against you. Common sense is also against you, because you're lumping a group of people together according to their attitudes about their gender when those attitudes are actually all over the map.Quote:
Therefore 'Transgender' really means to go or change from one sexual identity to another
Just give those of us a little more respect for our decisions to be where we want to be. ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Joanagreenleaf
mostly @melody moore - transgender is indeed often used as an umbrella term, but not all crosssdressers identify as transgender. and certainly gender is a more complex entity than simply having fun with clothing or playing a role. furthermore, gender identity (being an identity) is by definition subject to a person's own whims and feelings. it's up to him or her to identify as transgender or not, not any third party or real or imagined authority.
i also find it rather troubling that you try to qualify your arguments with declarations like 'FACT', when what we are talking about is a totally subjective, personal, identity-based experienced that is not in any way homogenous in our community.
Everyone to whom I have spoken about Transgender issues outside of the LGBT community has always said me in one way or another "I'm not familiar with that term, are Transsexuals also Transgender?" so my experience certainly does not bear out your assertion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophie86
Within the LGBT community, I have found other misundertsandings about the T word, but I have not met with your uniform assumption that Transgender = Transsexual.
In fact, the only place that I have found the term to be so widely mis-used is amongst the people on this forum.
No it's not, TG is the umbrella term used on this board for all, TS describes what you are referring to, although the majority never go that far. TG - transgendered, TS - transsexual...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Ed
Because someone else owns that domain name, do you know what domain names are? We can't just pull any name out of our hats, these domains have to be purchased.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Ed
However, the primary reason it was called crossdressers.com was because it was initially set up for CD's, their family and friends, but over the last 7 or so years it's been running, it has expanded to include the whole transgendered spectrum.
Administrator posting now: -
One more thing, please tone it down in this thread, there is simply no need for arguing and bitching. This is a damn good thread and it would be a shame to lock it up... ygm?
just recently joined. from reading through this you may never see this post, but i am seeking support. may never come out of the closet for the same reasons or rational, but i do wish we lived in a society that accepted men in skirts and heel!
I'm also closeted (except to my wife), and I'd like to be more out about my CDing, but I'm very apprehensive. I feel some shame about the CDing, which I'm trying to work on. But really, isn't that what being in the closet is mostly about, being ashamed of what you are hiding? I guess the issue is that the OP seems to be rationalising their closeted existence in a way that tries to spin it to something that it really isn't. I think Joanna was probably just trying to bring the OP down a notch and see it in a way that isn't so self serving. The Loserville comment may have been harsh, but looking at the thread it seems to have been borne more out out of frustration than anything else.
Politically, well I think we'd all agree that we'd like to be able to present ourselves however we want to in public with no fear of retribution in the form of violence, workplace discrimination, social discrimination, etc etc. Then there'd be no need for a closet. But that won't be achieved without changing the public's perception on the issue. Staying in the closet doesn't help this cause at all, and as Pythos has said has the potential to make it worse, in the case of being outed involuntarily.
Also, I tend to feel that there's something quite inauthentic in what I'm doing, which doesn't exactly fill me with pride. It's like I get to have my cake (enjoying the privileges that go along with being a white middle class male) and eat it too (getting to express my trans nature privately, with little/no consequence). Like it or not, living authentically is pretty important in terms of psychological wellbeing, etc.
Gotta just get over my fear and get out there, I'm well conflicted here ;)...
What really annoys me the most on this website is when someoneQuote:
Originally Posted by Mister Ed
tries to bore me out & they are so ignorant of the real facts themselves.
You dear have much to learn about the terminologies used in the transgendered community. And if you
didn't know I am a voluntary community educator/liaison officer for transgender awareness support &
acceptance in my local community. So I would have to know the proper terminologies now for when I am
talking to other people or I would look pretty stupid now if I was wrong about these things wouldn't I ? :heehee:
Well dear, all these people who have that misinterpretation of the word transgender would all be wrong. :daydreaming::heehee:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophie86
The term transsexual is what defines those who feel they have been born or feel trapped in the
wrong bodies. Transgender & Transsexual are two different words with completely different meanings.
It appears to me that these cross-dressers that misunderstand the true meaning of the word 'transgender' who don't
want to be tarred with the same brush as a transsexual, so this is why they reject this terminology. But the fact is a
cross-dresser, transvestite or drag queen is a transgendered person whether they are in the closet or not.
And as Rianna said the only place that I have found the term to be so widely mis-used is amongst the people on this forum.
Anne, Live your life the way you see fit! There is tons of great people, info and support here. Take what you
need and leave the rest. contribute and help when you can. Above all ignore the bores that know everything
and try to school you!
I am aware that they are different terms but as other people have mentioned they have been used interchangeably both here and in the wider world. While it maybe incorrect to do so, I feel I should use common language and terminology so everyone can understand. I will go back and correct my earlier definition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamara Croft
This question was rhetorical. I apologise for the tone, more on this at the end of this post. My final one in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamara Croft
I am far from ignorant, I just chose to use the terms as the wider world does. Myself and other members who passed comment are more offended by the use of a dictionary quote as a rebuttal to an argument and being told we are in denial or that being private with my activities is wrong. Please provide further comment or even a link to a previous thread where ignorant people like me (if I'm going to be labeled as such) CAN get a clearer picture of what we should say to be understood properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melody Moore
It's great that you promote the activities of people like us in your community. Which "other people" are you talking about? Professional councilors, psychiatric therapists or members of the public? If they are professionals, fine you must use the terminologies correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melody Moore
They are, but the general public wouldn't know that. How many times do you have to educate people of this fact in your role as liaison?Quote:
Originally Posted by Melody Moore
I am in no way being sarcastic despite my tone, I really would like to know.
Language like all of human nature is a fluid thing; we don't correct every one who says they "Hoover" the floor instead of "Vacuum". We accept that it's a term and if we don't understand we ask for clarification.
I have no issue with being "tarred" with the same brush, as it were, with a TS person. But if the common vernacular is not technically correct and I have no desire to represent an entire female self to the rest of the world: I wish to correct some one about my intentions and I wish to do so by using one word I feel is appropriate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melody Moore
On another forum (NOT CD/TG/Whatever related), I've spoken to a post-op TS girl (not a member here) who had no clue about which term is which. If some one who has completed every process discussed here doesn't know the vernacular; what hope does the rest of the world have? (another rhetorical question)
Now, my reasons for appearing to be so confrontational:
I feel, just like Anne does, that closeted crossdressers are loosing their voice on this site and are even being talked down. I accept that people people here started out crossdressing, then found they desired to progress further into Transgenderism (see - used it correctly). I would like people to accept my desire to keep my cross dressing as a private pastime. There are times I think about going out en-fem or coming out to friends. Maybe one day I will be confident enough to do so. I do go out to retail shops occasionally, but never dressed and only if I feel comfortable with the situation. In general, this part of my life (as well as my interest in Latex gear) remains "covert" as it were.
As I mentioned earlier on, I am moving to a small regional city to start a new career. First off, I will be focused on nothing but my job for the foreseeable future so I can learn everything. I'm starting from scratch so I requires my full attention. Once that's done, I'll still be living in a small regional city, no matter where in the western world you live, surely you accept these places are more conservative.
Further to that, there are forces in my life that I can't go into here, that mean coming out could be detrimental . Please trust me on this, they are documented but just cannot be mentioned in a public forum.
So, I am acting out because this will be my only point of communication for the immediate future. You can understand my desire not to loose my voice here.
If I have offended anyone with my posts I sincerely apologise.
Ed, out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Ed
obviously u werent paying attention... I dont hide who i am, I dont own any guys clothes.. been known to wear what ever i damn well please, from a dress to a bikini, to a thong and pasties. it relly doesnt matter.. so excuseme if your mistaken about your above comment, i MAY present as a guy dressed in girls clothes... to full girl depending on the effort placed on any given day... im a business owner, reasonably sucessfull one at that. no business debts... own home, and vehicles. nd guess what... nobody gives 2 $hits bout how i look... sure i get a few questions but those are very few and far between, nd none are hostile, but i dont present as a pushover pussy either. even when i pass for a girl, im not a prissy little thing at 6'3" and 200 lbs... so most people let things go by s huh thts different. ive been out for 3 years 24/7 the only guys stuff i even claim to own is 2 collectable jackets, 1 from the soviet army, and the other from lithuanian navy. both from pre cold war/ WW2... eras. so dont you EVER say i regurgitate unfactual crap... I live this EVERY DAY... so mr ed.. your dumb.. nd welcome to loserville... you need to stay there untill your smart enough to realize some of us here know what the world looks like and normal people dont give 2 shits what we look like
Quoting from Oxforddixtionary:rulez:
http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...tite?region=us
Quote:
Transgender: denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender.
Quote:
Transsexual: a person who emotionally and psychologically feels that they belong to the opposite sex.
a person who has undergone treatment in order to acquire the physical characteristics of the opposite sex.
I hope this stops the definition wars :uzi:.Quote:
Transvestite: a person, typically a man, who derives pleasure from dressing in clothes appropriate to the opposite sex.
MODERATOR POSTING HERE
Members have been politely asked to keep the tone civil in this thread, Some of you obviously have not got the message, and yet again a good thread has gone downhill because some members prefer to air their dirty washing in public.
I would like to appologise to the OP but too much time is spent on keeping this thread civil and I am now closing it.