It's like taking a bite of forbidden or unacheivable fruit for some CDs...
Printable View
It's like taking a bite of forbidden or unacheivable fruit for some CDs...
In a nutshell, I agree. CDers should continue to do what they've always done, except maybe not right now in North Carolina. :p This means being careful about which bathrooms to use, for example not choosing to use the mall bathroom on a Saturday afternoon when the mall is hosting a large Girl Guide event. I don't think this is an issue for most CDers or at least I have not encountered CDers on this site demanding that natal women recognize them as women in bathrooms.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristinaK
And the nonsense about making it specifically "illegal" to use a bathroom that does not correspond to one's birth sex simply has got to go. In all states. It does not serve any purpose other than to inflame and to try to create stereotypes in order to further a political agenda, and I suspect it will be proven to be unconstitutional.
But a separate issue, and the most important, is the need to change how this nation defines women and men - is it just based on birth genitals, or should it also include the people born in the wrong bodies who need to transition. The Courts need to define this because for the first time ever, in the last generation, transsexuals have come out en masse. They are transitioning and living publicly in their target gender, they demand to enjoy the same rights as cispeople, to be in the same places as the cispeople who identify as the same gender, and they deserve to be there with an absence of hate crimes. So it has become necessary to define what is "F" and "M" which in the process will grant them rights to be in the right bathrooms. It is necessary IMO to legalize access to public restrooms for transitioned transsexuals, as a protective measure, using a newly defined "F" and "M" that is not strictly according to one's genitals. And public bathrooms are particularly in contention because gendered spaces are particularly sensitive ... they are personal, away from the public eye, and they are places where people are more vulnerable.
So the question is, how should we define someone who will fit into the newly defined "F" category (other than ciswomen). Well, proof is in the pudding. Lambda Legal has defined it as according to one's gender identity and I agree. If someone identifies as a woman and has backed that up with living full time as a woman, then she is a woman. Realistically this means for most MtF TSs to risk things like relationships and jobs, which are not risked lightly. There is also a need to change gender markers on things like drivers licenses, credit cards, etc. Ceasing to look like a male is important too and so most get on hormones and also get electrolysis (very expensive) if they are not genetically blessed with already looking naturally like women. And many take it further with FFS, BAs, etc, plus having had counseling to explore talking all these drastic steps given the importance of all the changes. And this is all before any consideration might be given to SRS in the future! If you take all of this into account, it is not difficult to ascertain that a person's goal is indeed to live full time according to her gender identity.
The mistake is in fighting to recognize part-time CDers as "F", in the laws that are indeed necessary in order protect transwomen (and transmen). It is simply not going to happen because part-time CDers have not shown an intent to live full time as women, and therefore they are NOT seen as identifying fully as women. Plus, by virtue of being CDers, they do choose to live as men and so they do have options about where to pee.
This does not mean that CDers will not be able to continue to use women's bathrooms. As mentioned multiple times, there are no gender police at each bathroom door, and other than some pockets of people in the US, I think pretty much most people are neutral about it, they won't make a big deal if they suspect someone is a CDer who is minding their own business in a women's bathroom. And the silly rule in North Carolina (the only state to have done this to my knowledge) about "illegal for people not born in this sex" cannot stand. So if the bathroom isn't busy, or if the CDer blends in pretty well, or if the bathroom is in San Francisco for example rather than a small town in the South, or any other criteria a CDer might have used in the past to determine whether he wanted to use the women's or not, nothing needs to change. But, to have CDers legally defined as "F" for the purpose of enacting protective laws for TSs? It's just not going to happen.
As to the category of "mixed gender" mentioned earlier ... the people who do not define themselves primarily as either men or women, I did start a thread asking the question, but it isn't getting a lot of responses. I'm guessing there aren't many in this forum.
Quite honestly, all this uproar over TG's and bathrooms lately has me extremely reluctant to use one . . .
This is precisely why Michael Hughes has made the point that by birth sex, he would be forced to use the women's restroom. I am certain women would have a reaction if they found themselves standing next to him, but that's what all this B/S leads to.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
DeeAnn
Crossdressing is a fetish and crossdressing is a life style. We should all sigh that what people wear defines people in such a way to be stigmatized. The situation presented and the revolving solution is complex because we generally use a two-gender system for lots of things *1 so to simplify it is unjust. Unless a census is taken in the USA and everyone takes it and everyone is truthful and the data is compiled completely and the census is wide on the questions it asks of lots of facets of life, unless this happens we will not be able to weigh general society and individual society's thoughts on an issue such as what bathroom a CD should use when in CD mode *2. The simplest answer to fixing this all would be to only have unisex bathrooms *3. Until humans are able to genetically and physically alter themselves easily and completely and cheaply and in a short period of time, until then we should live with and try to make undesirable situations tolerable. Having a person currently presented as a female using a traditional women's bathroom should not be questioned unless they are acting suspiciously *4. I check guys in the bathroom with a glance, but just to get view of my surrounding *5. That the mother made a check to the other "adult female" in the room is fine, that she decided to try and confront and harass her because her looks were not up to snuff is horrible. That the other "adult female" was "ignorant" of the insult, did her civic duty to wash her hands after using the toilet, and left without inducing a unsavory situation is to be applauded.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabyespinotv
So in the year 2100 when the USA has decided to switch to gender neutral bathrooms I hope society has generally transcended this harassment. Of course.... if we get gender neutral *6 bathrooms questioning sex when any can be in there would be... weird? No lizard people allowed in the humans only bathroom!
*1 [like clothes sections, accessories, bathrooms, dressing rooms (sometimes), looks, wages... and other things. Now i feel like there are more, but I can't think of them and it feels like this BIG list just shrank]
*2 [with further complexities arising from how far the CD went to look one gender or the other while dressed in what is today in society considered solely women's and feminine clothing]
*3 [which in my opinion would lead to a camera facing down all of general lanes of the bathroom to catch what society assumes would happen in unisex bathrooms. The cameras would be needed to help in law enforcement cases that can happen in the bathroom whether you are presenting whatever way you want. There have been cases of bullying normal non-cd guys that just look more feminine or harassing real women because they look suspiciously male like.... or something]
*4 [like talking to themselves about a ritual or harming others, doing bad things, looking in stalls.... stuff a normal person that just needs to pee/poop or fix their makeup or change their child's diaper or splash their face or chitchat away from their dates doesn't do]
*5 (just like paying attention to everything on the rode as you drive protects you or is possibly interesting, I pay attention to my surrounding most the time so ninjas don't pop out the ceiling and murder me!!!! or you know, you catch that person that dropped their wallet or walked out the bathroom without washing their hands or has toilet paper stuck to their shoe or is sweating a lot or anything your mind thinks might pique or interest for a second)
*6 by gender neutral i mean gender neutral ONLY bathrooms, no 3-4 bathroom system. Men and women use the same bathroom and there is no other choice.... other than maybe a family bathroom because, i dunno, maybe it helps the offbeat bathroom shy person or family that actually needs to use it all together.
[SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]
A "friend" once made the association when the bathroom bill first passed that gays should use the opposite bathroom too so they don't prey on all the straight people, and my retort was that his comment was REALLY stupid because a straight guy can go into the lady's room real easy and pass for gay because.... gay and straight people look alike. It isn't always suits and flamingos, we both wear blue jeans. ... What i guess that statement was supposed to say is that regular people is a nonexistent category, and it only exists in our minds when these issues pop up because there are camps for and against the issue, and we lump everyone into one or the other.......Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexa CD
On the loud minority part I can agree we are a minority, obviously tinier than the mainstream minorities, whether they be by sexual identity or heritage (black, white, latino, etc). Way tinier I assume, but I have no clue. I have no clue what amount of stuff will allow you to check mark the box that says crossdresser. Can we count the people that actively deny it, the people that wear that one clothing item even though it's the other sex (like a t-shirt or necklace etc etc etc?), those that hide the truth and haven't joined this site, those that degree of CDing can pass as normal guy wear and thus don't see themselves as CD, etc. ..The CD community could be a lot bigger than either of us assume. The norms of the past still rule, and the "morals" of the past still rule, and as society changes it can be part of our duty to help foster new norms (or you know, change the old norms with updated thoughts). Our morals are crap since the most vocal group, christians, don't even follow theirs (love your neighbor as yourself Jesus said, yet a woman yesterday just offered up mass genocide in Syria and turning it into a parking lot (even the f-----g children, she said to make sure to wipe out the children!!! f-----g nuts). All the pro-life people telling others to die or their going to hell, all the christians telling gays to die:::: are examples because (I consider myself christian) christians morals are so f----d up its hard not to poke holes in their logic). WE NEED to fix, to change, to come up with norms and morals. We need to actually follow our "still good" but ignored norms and morals.
Overall to say it's not their problem is not true and to say we are legitimately a over-represented minority is up for debate because I am in the closet, and my sister isn't considered a crossdresser when she wears that oversized guy shirt as a dress or other clothes, and presenting femininity is met with prejudice so you decide to ignore parts of the rainbow and how certain shirts are cut or if they are transparent or too tight or how high the crotch rides, if it has pockets, blah blah blah. blah blahhh bla, bl bla baba. I think your picture is cute and I am growing out my hair too though it's only at the ears so far.
Hi all,
I haven't digested everything in this thread but here is my :2c:. Obviously unisex rest rooms are a solution, but
I've used the ladies' room for years with no problems (... even in NC rest stops) and honestly it just feels like the natural thing to do. I may not look like a 70-year old, but my kidneys are certainly 70 plus. I've never had a problem. Has ANYONE heard of a TG or TS accosting a woman there? (Sorry of I have missed something.)
Kimberly, I'm sorry to read this. Sadly, it's not just reactions to TG's ... it seems symptomatic of a growing feeling against anyone who is "different" ...Quote:
Originally Posted by TxKimberly
Kimberly,
I successfully used the bathroom 3 other times that day with no issues. You look a lot more feminine than I do. I'm tall and broad shouldered and have only had one issue in dozens of times using the Ladies Room. I will continue to use the Ladies Room when dressed as there is no other choice often times. I've even had to stand in line to use the Ladies Room with no issues at all.
I always feel like a fox in a henhouse though. It's not comfortable, but it's a heck of a lot better than using the Men's Room when dressed!
Most women don't pay any attention. I've even put on lipstick and had women speak to me briefly. Either they had no clue or were perfectly fine with me, I don't know.
So, keep your shoulders back, hold your head high and boldly walk through the door like you're Miss America.
You can fool all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but never all of the people all of the time. I remember standing outside a bathroom waiting for my GF to come out and this drunk guy was staring at me with that squint look, as if he was trying to decide if i was a girl or not. but I was in and out of the bathroom girls beside me talking and fixing themselves in the mirror, to busy to pay me any attention. It can happen to anyone it only takes one person to draw attention and before you know it everyone is looking :( had this happen to me once, a group sitting at the table next to me and nobody even noticed me except for this one girl :Angry3: she was so rude kept whispering to her friends and looking over at me, made me feel really uncomfortable :(
I agree. Even besides bathrooms, I've just become more cautious and, bad as I hate to admit it, I've been reluctant to go out. In 40 years of going out I've never felt quite this way, and I don't think it's just me being paranoid. It's been months since I've used a ladies room and I'm not looking forward to when it's unavoidable. I stop at Walmart and use the family restroom at the back of the store. I know a few convenience stores that have single user restrooms. And, yes, I carry a big cup in the car. Haven't had to use it, but the time will come.Quote:
Originally Posted by TxKimberly
I think I'm so uptight about using the ladies room now that my body just is keeping me from having to go as much. I'm not kidding about that! I'm not liking this era of trans visibility. I preferred invisibility! I do not feel empowered. I feel like I'm eliciting a "There's one!" response now, even though I've never actually seen or heard that reaction. I do see some raised eyebrows.
BTW, Great to see Kim back!!!
Not much difference? Only if you consider transitioned women to be an extension of male cross dressing (basically seeing them as men who cross dress full time) Which is how I feel most on here think of ts women.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana44
We are not even remotely alike, or in this together.
Your comparing men who like to dress in womens cloths to actual women. You feel feminine or like a woman when you put on female clothing. For me being a woman is simply being me. It is not dependent clothing. If I am wearing jeans and shirt and no make up what bathroom do you think I will still use? I'll use the one I belong in, the women's. If your dressed the same way which would you use?
We don't have the same issues.
With bathrooms
Employment
health care
legal issues
Use the bathroom you feel is appropriate for how you are dressed. It does not bother me. But don't say we are in this together and imply we are the same.
Rhonda, do you live in the South? Because I think this is only an issue in some of the Southern states?
The raised eyebrows have always been there though, even when people do not judge negatively but feel neutral about it ... because of the small number of people who do cross the gender/sex barriers. Right? People do notice what is statistically different. I've always looked for the raised eyebrows, I think more than my SO, and this is how I know they've always been there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhonda Jean
Also, I don't think we can go much longer without bringing it all into the open. Transsexuals deserve to be legally recognized as the women or men they feel they are internally. And the recognition will not occur without redefining the laws (changing what is M or F on identity documents) and in the process, dealing with the people who disagree. Homosexuals had to fight big time for recognition too and same-sex marriage.
Great point!Quote:
Originally Posted by Claire Cook
Nice to see you again, Kim! :)
So Arbon, Seriously, I get enough from Zooey. But really what makes you so special that you despise us so badly. By god, you was once a man and we do consider you a woman in respect for you. Many out there do not and that is an issue for you. Why are we in this together? We are all in the spectrum Of LBGT, remember the rainbow colors. We are all in the same frog pond and some of you have made it all the way. Yes that is special. But it took you a long time to be a wanna be a woman. Why are you so discriminatory against us. Indeed we do have things in common. I saw on this thread where GG opinions were discounted as though you don't believe them. We listen to them. We listen to you.
I was just trying to say that since we are LBGT we are all in this together and need to get on the same page. SO why all the discrimination?
To Dana & Arbon, hope you don't mind but as a third party who is able to step back, I think is is more of a communication issue than how you feel about one another.
Dana is not saying you are both the same gender, but you both do have one thing in common that cis-people don't have, and this is being looked upon as being different, sometimes or oftentimes by people who are not kind about this. There is some sort of solidarity to this.
Arbon does not despise you Dana, but rather took it you meant that you and she are the same gender, that you both express this gender for the same reasons, and that you both suffer from the same degree of intolerance in all areas of your lives. Arbon was pointing out this is not true. At the same time, Arbon pointed out that you do have every right to be yourself and to use the bathroom you feel comfortable using.
Did I get that right?
Wait... LGBT is a spectrum now? How many spectra am I a part of at this point?
Quite right, Reine. This is, like many things, a matter of perspective. I can say with pretty much 100% certainty that none of us - including myself - despise any of you. Just because we are saying that we are different and have very different issues does not mean that we hate you, nor that we discriminate against you.
No, she wasn't - not really - although you're correct that she tried to be, and others saw her that way. In the same vein...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana44
Again - perspective. Not to pick on you, but this language is so fundamentally indicative of exactly the type of differences we're talking about. You say that you respect us as women, and yet the way that so many here speak and the assumptions made about us often indicate quite the opposite. The spectrum concept as applied here by many simply reinforces for them the incorrect notion that we are the same thing as male-identified crossdressers, and that we just "had it worse" or "went further".Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana44
Genuine request - I would love for you to point out to me, in PM or otherwise, where this occurred. I just re-read this thread, and I don't see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana44
Indeed Reine, what you said is correct. Zooey, Aborn, I am sorry but yet we do feel the push and the cavalier attitude against us. I do agree with the GG's in this thread that we need to keep doing what we already have been doing. I do agree that a genderless bathroom would be best but in America I don't think we would ever see it. So, that is not a solution. And thanks Arbon for your comment that we should use the one we need to.
Danna - What discrimination?
No I don't despise you, or crossdressers. But I don't think that most crossdressers see ts women the way you claim.
I dislike be lumped with crossdressers and their issues which are not the same as mine. I keep getting told we are all in this together, in the same boat, on the same team, have to work together.
And consider the statement "But it took you a long time to be a wanna be a woman." really? See, we are on opposite sides here. You think I am a wanna be woman, not a real woman, but we are on the same team right?
You say we have things in common, perhaps you can explain what they are?
When I look at the bathroom and locker room issues the way I perceive it is that if I am denied access or harassed because of the type of woman I am it would be the same as denying any other woman access based on some characteristic. Like being black, or a red head. I don't see it from the perspective of a man presenting as a woman or as a wanna be woman. And those men saying this issue they face is the same as the one I face is annoying.
Over the last six months I have put myself out there is some substantial ways advocating for transgender rights, a lot having to do with our school district. The argument I repeated over and over again was that trans girls are girls, trans boys are boys, trans women are women, trans men are men. I had angry parents telling me how mental sick I was. One local resident made the suggestion I slit my throat. I was not advocating for guys that get dressed up time to time to do a little shoe shopping at the mall being able to use the girls room. Their issues are not the same. And while I have put myself out there how many crossdressers in my town were jumping in to advocate for their rights? ? Exactly zero.
Just to be clear, "doing what we have already been doing" does not involve granting CDs the explicit legal right to use the ladies room. As far as I can tell, what they (and in fact I) have been saying is that "getting away with it most of the time" and "not being arrested when/if there's a conflict" (aka the status quo, by and large) is fine for people who do not identify (legally and otherwise) as and live their lives as women.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana44
Being personally okay with a CD in the women's room is very different from saying that men should be guaranteed access to those spaces if they're wearing a dress.
And how do you expect a stranger to make the distinction? It's an honest question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey
I get where yall are coming from, but that is the deal. To an outside observer, there is no difference between a CD and a TS. You and I know there's a difference, and I don't challenge that. There are certainly differences, but they are not externally observable differences.
So when it comes to this "whose allowed in what bathroom" discussion, and you're telling me that I should use the men's room when I'm out in public as a girl, because I am not "as real of a woman as you are" ... in spite of the fact that there will be the exact same consequences for both of us when/if we are read by the wrong person ...
I understand where you're coming from, and I respect your identity as a woman. But honestly, while I can understand the argument you're making, I cannot wrap my head around how you'd expect this to work in the real world.
There are society problems, and there are legal problems. This issue involves both.
Society needs to not be in a state where people get the s**t kicked out of them for being/looking different. Full stop.
Legally, it matters when there's a dispute, e.g. somebody complains about a "man" in the ladies room. Who's in the right? What are the consequences? Does somebody get asked to leave? We need to work on society to reduce the number of disputes, but the law is about how disputes are resolved.
I think we should work to de-gender bathrooms, because I believe it encourages progress on a number of the societal aspects. I don't think that legally treating men in dresses as women part of the time depending on what they happened to be wearing is the correct solution to anything.
Well ... that's all fine and good in some future paradise, but we're talking about here and now.
This thread started with a CD member of this site sharing a moment where they were read in a women's room, and quick thinking, and a calm composure were the only things standing between that person and a real probable beat down. Which was followed by a comment that strongly implied that the CD member was in the wrong and would have had it coming.
You're telling me that couldn't happen to you, because of this fundamental CD/TS divide that you perceive?
In the past, when I've stated "we're all in the same boat" that specifically is what I'm talking about .
Actually, that could 100% happen to me, and that's sorta my point. I just don't believe that any law currently being discussed does anything to address that problem in the moment.
I believe we all need to work together to increase tolerance and respect. I believe that the legal solutions appropriate to each of our groups are very different.
To you mean the laws being debated and passed in three dead of night that explicitly criminalize the act of using the ladies room of you were born genetically male? The laws that literally make me have to choose between criminal behavior, or getting my butt kicked?
C'mon now! :-)
I'm certainly not for the laws you're talking about. HB2 and its ilk are vile, heinous things.
You have a "safety" problem. I have a "consistent legal recognition as a woman" problem. IMO, the proper solutions to those problems are very different, but also not mutually exclusive. We should be working on both, but we also should not do legal gymnastics in order to try and make them the same.
... yes it's almost like we have a few the same problems for different reasons.
As if we were on some some sort of buoyant vessel together
:rofl:
Interesting. And if that buoyant vessel should founder, wouldn't that mean that you both end up drowning? (Separately, of course.)
They can't in many cases. This is why CDers should continue to do what they've always done, which is to use their instincts and common sense about when they feel comfortable using the women's bathrooms. An example: my SO is not TS and we've been out for many years. My SO will not use the bathroom in a packed mall on a busy Saturday afternoon if there is a major Girl Guide event going on (an exaggeration, to illustrate). We will make other bathroom arrangements. And if perchance we absolutely need to buy something there on that day before the mall closes - say there is a one-day only blow-out sale on an item we absolutely need, there is the option to go in male mode because my SO is not full time! TSs on the other hand do not have the luxury of switching back and forth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy Fakley
But a completely different issue is how to redefine "M" and "F" legally. Should it include people who dress part time and if so, how do we get the rest of the US population to agree, including the wives of the CDers.
The legal redefinition of "M" and "F" is a separate issue from who actually uses the bathrooms ... provided we get rid of the "you cannot use the bathroom unless your genitals match" rule that I think is only specific to North Carolina and not other states. This does make it illegal for CDers to use women's bathrooms there and right now this is also true for all transitioned TSs who have not had SRS. This needs to change.
ReineD,
Well put and the way you and your SO manage nature calls to me just makes good sense. Have rights and exercising them are to different things. My late father used to say your rights end when they infringe on another's. Easy to say tougher to manage and implement.
I think the OP handled the situation the best based on the situation. Like the ads for lawyers say "past performance doesn't assure future success."
LOL, well played.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy Fakley
Look, if the boat you're talking about is the SS "Humanity is important and we should all hate less and respect more", then I'm glad to ride that boat with you. Along with all women, people of color, the rest of the LGBT community, Syrian refugees, and pretty much any other human on the planet who has ever been marginalized by those in power.
When it comes to the boats I'm talking about - the boats organized by the nature and needs of our respective situations - then no. In my opinion, those boats have different destinations and routes, even if we both end up encountering some icebergs along the way.
Ignoring her was probably the best option. Second would be to ask her why she wanted to know.
In any case, you wouldn't want to engage her in a conversation bout it.
Why do so few people understand what Zooey is saying??
She supports CDs, she agrees gender neutral bathrooms are the solution, she understands the safety issue.
The fundamental difference between a CD and TS is choice.
A CD chooses to dress female for a day and on that day needs to use a female toilet which if the presentation and attitude is respectful will hopefully be able to use the female toilet successfully. Of course if things get a little uncomfortable they may also choose to go to that place as a man next time, either way they don't have to be out dressed it is a lifestyle choice.
A TS who is full-time IS female and doesn't have any other option than to use the female toilet, they can't decide to come as a man next time because they are not men. There is no choice there is no hiding they have to be there and because of that need legal protection for the right of entitlement.
Most of the time this bathroom issue might not be a problem but seeing as TS are female they need legal protection should a situation turn nasty.
You can't expect a man that enjoys crossdressing at the weekend to also benefit from the same level of legal protection?
Try think of it like this:
There is a party with a mixed age group all drinking and dancing with no issues. Great night no one acts up and everyone goes home happy.
The next week they have the same party however this time someone kicks off and the police are called. Turns out there are some under age drinkers at the party.
Now what?
Do we just accept that they shouldn't legally be there drinking but they typically act responsibly so most of the time they get away with it.
Or do we lower the legal age so they have the same rights of adults?
I remember being underage in clubs with the risk of being caught, still did it and only once had an issue and I was barred. I never once thought the law should be changed to suit my own personal circumstances I understood the reason for the age limit. I had the choice of going somewhere else that was appropriate to my age.
If you are a male identified Crossdresser and you want to use the female toilet for safety I don't think anyone will disagree with that.
If you feel it is your 'Right' and should be made legal to use it then in my opinion that is a very selfish point of view that is totally disrespectful to the women using those spaces.
Need isn't the same as right.
Safety issue is a separate problem to legal right issue.
If the public are ill informed, we still have to bend with the wind and avoidhazards and confrontation.
Militant feminists still attract a lot of flak due to their stance.
Becky, well said. I know that Zooey likes us but sometime what she implies gets under our skins because she tells us we are men like Conan the barbarian and we resent that a bit because we are far more feminine men and she should know that. It is also a safety issue for some of us to go into a male bathroom. I always look over my shoulder for any trouble. But en fem some of us pass and it would be real bad to have to use the men's room and she says we are manly men anyways and that is our safety issue while the GG's have said they understand the issues and to do what we have been doing but use common sense. And many of us do that. So the argument goes on for no reason at all. I guess we will never agree and there is a lot more crossdressers than TS, it would be a larger number if we worked together. That is all we are saying. But I understand now that the TS wants to go alone for their rights and we will have to do the same.
Sometimes I feel like I am in groundhog day, repeating the same stuff over and over. . .Quote:
Originally Posted by arbon
There are many of us, perhaps even a majority of us, that have made the choice not to abandon our careers and our families to go full time. Technically this makes us "only" crossdressers.
Many of us have the same self image that you do, the same needs that you do, the same head trips that you do, the same over whelming knowledge that we are in the wrong body that you do. The same need to grab every second of life that we can gather our fingers around that you do. That some insist on trying to draw a huge and wide line between the TS and cross dresser kind of offends me.
If you insist on drawing lines that separate us, how about using a little tact and consideration for those that chose a path that might even be harder than the one that you chose?
And oh yeah, GET OFF MY LAWN DAMN IT!
I never said you're all "manly manly butch butch kill murder pillage sex guys". I just said that most of you are men, or at the very least not women, and that there are some fairly fundamental differences in perspective that come from that. Speaking of which...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana44
...and again, I'll just say that if you were actually capable of making that choice in the long run, then your situation IS fundamentally different from ours. For that reason, I personally think it's inappropriate, and displays a lack of understanding that undermines a lot of what you say about us and how similar we are, for you to project your situation onto ours in that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by TxKimberly
I've never said your lives were easy, or even easier. I simply said that they're different. I have no doubt that they are easier in some ways, and harder in others. That's the way life works.Quote:
Originally Posted by TxKimberly
If you feel like I have not been using tact and giving you consideration, then I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.
I could have quoted a dozen different posts in this thread, but I chose yours arbon, because it was the clearest, and really rubbed me the wrong way.Quote:
Originally Posted by arbon
Some people (in fact many muggles) say that if you're born a man, you'll never be a woman, no matter how many operations you may choose to have. I don't think that a "transitioned woman" to use your words, is a full time crossdresser. But, why can't you even consider that a crossdresser (or at least some crossdressers) would transition if it didn't mean that they might lose their wife, their family, their job and many of their friends.
When I'm out crossdressed, I am doing the best job that I can to emulate a woman. Since I'm 5'9", 150 lbs and wear a size 14 top and size 12 bottoms, in many ways, I'm more passable than the 1 out of 3 GG women who are obese or severely obese. When I'm dressed as a girl, it would be pretty hard to determine if I was "just a CD", bigender or a pre-op or non-op TS, without giving me a psychological test.
So, I've said my piece, clearly, respectfully, and without insults, and I hope if what I said is disagreeable, that the mods just delete my post, and not ban me. My intent is to not post on this thread again, and if anyone wants any clarification, please just PM me.
Remember that recent times have seen increases in the numbers of people transitioning in their 50's and 60's. People cite retirement, death of parents and other circumstances that changed things for them. Obviously it's a different set of needs and experiences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey
DeeAnn
... or divorce. I've always wondered about that - why transition only when major barriers are removed, when it is safe or easier, as if there was a choice all along. And if there was a choice (the choice to wait until seemingly unsurmountable obstacles were removed), then does this person have the same gender identity as someone who had no choice and risked everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlander_48
Reine - I don't think it is the same for the people who transition "once it's convenient". Honestly, amongst the people I know (and this is across all age groups), you can usually tell because the women are just women, and whatever the other ones are, they're the folks trying to act like "women".
I know people like to say that "it's hard to learn how to be a woman, especially when you're old". My personal belief is that, outside of purely practical skills like makeup application (which not every cis woman knows), if you have to learn how to be a woman, that's telling in some ways...
I think they are women who can't let go of acting like men, so they act like women - which comes off as inauthentic and still leaves lots of feigned male behavior behind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey
Maybe a better way to say it is that it is a failure to fully commit, imo, most of the time. (There are non-binary people, but the authentic ones I know have very carefully developed expositions of their true self - they may not be much like me, but they feel authentic.)
The talk about sexuality and pre-transition gender expression in this thread just depresses me. It means nothing in terms of the validity of that person's gender identity once they come out, although it suggests that odds are, they'll be queer.
I wouldn't say choice. I would think it is a case of delaying the inevitable.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
I would assume that one would have to go through the same hoops, get the same approvals, etc. in order to transition. While I've read people's stories, I've yet to see exactly what allowed them to delay, so that remains a mystery. Other than medication and intense therapy, I don't know what else there would be. It's all very curious, but it does happen.
DeeAnn
It's interesting to me that in spite of all the words we've fired at eachother about society, laws, spectra (or lack thereof) and everything else, it seems to boil down to everyone defending their identities.
Surely in a space like this one, we can refrain from attacking the identity of others!?
If you transitioned because you felt that there was no other option, great! The fact that there are also people in the world who waited to transition (for instance to finish raising their children, or to protect a retirement they've spent their lives buildjng, or whatever) ... that doesn't invalidate your experience of "I can't handle waiting I must do this now". Both are valid, why must one experience diminish another ?? Actualy, how could that even be possible?!
If you tell me you are TS, it is not my place to tell you that you arent. It's nobody's place to do that. Same as if you tell me you're CD ... or if like myself, you find yourself somewhere between "playing dressup" and "suffering every minute of my life being utterly disconnected from my assigned gender" ... that's how I am ... if you think it's not possible for someone to be like that then I kindly suggest you keep that opinion to yourself because it is uninformed ... you don't have to live in my head and I can tell you it's definitely like that
This discussion seems to have taken a turn to the "transier than thou."
Well, the first, most obvious response is that because at that point it's safe and/or easier. If you're wondering why people would opt not to transition when it is unsafe or exceptionally difficult (since it's never NOT difficult) I'm left uncharacteristically speechless. But I'm guessing the answer is because we're all individuals and have individual responses and reactions. Some may delay transition from fear, some from a sense of duty to others, some because they're unaware it's an option for them. It doesn't really matter why and it doesn't make them "less trans" nor make others "more trans" if they have no inhibition about transitioning.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Reine -- I know you like to research rather than speculate -- if you look up the WPATH "Standards of Care for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender and Gender Nonconforming People" Version 7 you'll probably find it interesting in this regard. (The downloadable PDF is available for free from their web page http://www.wpath.org/site_page.cfm?p...n_webpage=3926 ) I think you'll find it very interesting especially when they're distinguishing Gender Nonconformity and Gender Dysphoria.
Great point KimberlyQuote:
Originally Posted by TxKimberly
welcome to my world. If it's Tuesday this must be "Let's divide the TSs from the CDs day"
Moderator note: You know people (certain people) you don't need to be in this sand box. Dissing one part of the spectrum over the other with your "Holier than thou" or "I am different and YOU can never know" gets old REAL quick. The MtF boards are for everyone, Drag, CD, GQ and all the TSs variants and anyone in between. Yeah, we get we don't all want or need surgery or that some switch from guy to fem in a heartbeat or that some just wanna be a meld...so QUIT talking down to people. You know who you are and you are on BOTH sides of this argument. Your life sucks, we get that. It really sucks when people aren't like you.
OK that is settled. Now play nice or go to another sand box. Quit peeing on my section.
Why? I was not attacking or belittling anyone. I did not say cross dressers should not use the bathroom per how they are presenting themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sometimes Steffi
Only stating that I don't believe that we have the same issues and that we are not fighting the same fights and that we are not on the same team or that we are on the same spectrum.
Yes. When you transition it is one of many things you have to deal with. Have you had to face that issue?- knowing your a woman and people saying your a man? Have you gone down that road with your wife, your children, friends, your employer, with your health care? It is not the same as getting them to accept your cross dressing, but having people accept you as a woman.Quote:
Some people (in fact many muggles) say that if you're born a man, you'll never be a woman, no matter how many operations you may choose to have.
Because a cross dresser does not need to transition, they are not a woman.Quote:
But, why can't you even consider that a crossdresser (or at least some crossdressers) would transition if it didn't mean that they might lose their wife, their family, their job and many of their friends.
That is not to say there are not people here currently identifying as cross dressers who are ts or women and just haven't realized or accepted it yet. When they do, it will all look very different to them and the conversation is not going to be the same.
The women you are comparing yourself to are women and don't need to worry about passing, it is a non issue to them. Your not. It is pretty crude/rude/wrong that you would actually say what you said there.Quote:
Since I'm 5'9", 150 lbs and wear a size 14 top and size 12 bottoms, in many ways, I'm more passable than the 1 out of 3 GG women who are obese or severely obese. When I'm dressed as a girl, it would be pretty hard to determine if I was "just a CD", bigender or a pre-op or non-op TS, without giving me a psychological test.
You may very well pass better then I do too. Should I care? I know who I am and I live it. It does not change with my wardrobe. I don't have to emulate anyone. Understand the difference? Which gets to the point of why we don't share the same issues, even in the bathrooms.
Here the medical community has drifted away from your view. CDs do not need to transition the way YOU did, but they have their own transition. The current thinking is that transition is the process of finding the social role in which you can be comfortable in your gender identity. For a TS, transition will probably include hormones, surgery, changing of identity documents and so on, but other gender variants may not need those things. But they still need to transition from the cisgender role they were taught about into a role that allows them to be who they are. Just as you ARE a woman and demand to be accepted that way, they ARE crossdressers or ARE gender-fluid or ARE whatever they are. Oh brave new world to have such people in it. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by arbon
Many crossdressers here talk about how they're happy because they have accepting spouses and can be themselves around them and don't care that they have to present male to the rest of the world. I'd argue that they've transitioned as crossdressers to a role that makes them happy (i.e. relieves dysphoria.) Others, like me, have to take more steps to reinforce a female presentation and be out walking around in the world, but we're not going to go to SRS because that wouldn't help. Mine is also a transition, but different than yours.
But there is still the Good Ship Transgender and all of us with gender identity issues are aboard. We do have issues in common. The people who would suppress me would suppress you too. We each have our individual issues as well, but the common ones are best addressed together when we can draw ourselves up to our full 0.6% of the US population (meaning there are fully as many of us as there are ham radio operators) to throw our weight around.
My God, do you have any idea how arrogant your posts are? Many of us were born long before you were a gleam in your parents eyes. Long before your average muggle knew what "transgender" meant. Long before WE knew what "transgender" meant. Many of us came to learn all about what it meant to be TG far too late to jump on the wagon and say " I am a woman". Nope, we looked around us figured there must be something wrong with us, and tried to make the best out of our screwed up lives. Now, 50 freaking years later, and everyone knows exactly what it means to be TG and it is too damned late for us. We a have jobs, we have wives, we have families, we have decades of learning and habit to overcome, and so we do the best that we can and we sacrifice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey
And yeah, some of us have come late to the game and need to unlearn decades of habit and training. . . .
As if that were not enough, and the derision of the typical muggle was not enough, now we have conceited TS's that want to point at us and say that we are lacking. . .
I'm too pissed off to remain polite so I'll leave off here. . .
All:
I have created a thread that will hopefully help us to understand some of the contentiousness in recent times. Have a look and comment as needed.
The thread is at:
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?241367-Incivility-And-Other-Brewing-Issues&p=3966876#post3966876
DeeAnn
I'm not interested in arguing any further, but I DO want to say that everything you listed is true of every woman I know (online and offline) who transitioned as an adult, which is all but one of the transitioners I personally know.Quote:
Originally Posted by TxKimberly
Personally, I had/have a career I love, I was not married but had a committed partner of 10 years (who I lost), I have a family I love that I put through a lot (and they still struggle), and I had 3.5 decades worth of time spent "living as a man" and trying to make the best out of a situation I assumed there was no solution to.
Good morning all,
Goodness . . . such agony over what is obviously a topic we can all agree to disagree on and beating the horse back from the dead only to beat her to death again is never going to resolve it. The OP (look down . . . look way down the thread) was recounting an experience which befell her which was harrowing and scary and to be honest one which could happen to any of us irrespective of who we are TS, CD or gender fluid. It saddens me to see this turned into another “us against them” or a “who gets the right to use what” thread when there is no need for it to occur . . . I know ever the optimist :).
Folks, IMHO nobody wins . . . we all lose. Does this mean we are all fighting the same fight, have the same experiences, live the same lives or fight the same demons? No. TS folk are fundamentally different (note I said different) from CD folk in the same way CD folk are fundamentally different from gender fluid folk. Nobody is an extension of another, CDing is not a gateway expression to being transsexual and gender fluid doesn’t mean you can’t identify as a woman some days and a man another. It simply means we are different and no better or superior from one another. However we do all share one common ground . . . we just want to live our lives in relative peace and happiness . . . end state.
If happiness means transitioning complete then so be it but, if it means dressing up pretty in private and doing stereotypically feminine pursuits then, all the power to you. However, if we can’t have empathy for each other knowing that embracing the suck of being who we are is a difficult row to hoe, then again . . . we all lose. Everybody hurts, everybody struggles and nobody is in a position to say my pain/struggle is more justified than yours. The lonely CDer who sits at home each night frightened, alone and crying because she cannot face the world . . . suffers. The transwoman who loses everything to transition suffers. The 50 something transgender person who wants desperately to be who they need to be but can’t because of family obligations and security . . . suffers.
Having empathy doesn’t mean we agree that we are a big happy collective fighting a common fight nor does it mean you should expect everyone to claim you as a kindred spirit. It simply allows you to temper your posts/comments/quips with an understanding that what seems irrelevant to you (based on your own experiences) can be very real to the other person and vice versa.
Cheers
Marcelle
this has gone on long enough