Attacking and Challenging Members - Fair Game or Not?

In a word, NO, there is never justification for attacking. As for challenging, there are methods by which this can be done in a gentle and caring way.

I have watched you grow for a few years now Anne, and I hold you in high regard, a role model in many ways. Are there things you have said and done that lessened your value in the moment? Of course there were, but you were under tremendous pressure from both within and externally. No Anne, you did not deserve to be attacked!

It is my belief that the best coaches, mentors, teachers, etc., do not employ attacking or belittling tactics, and they are very skilled in the way in which they challenge.

Just my thoughts, Carlene.

Like Erika, I'm just starting out on this crazy journey. (Actually I'm a little behind as I'm not even starting the medical stuff for another couple seasons in case I chicken out.) There is so much that I don't know, and I'm sure I will ask some pretty dumb questions along the way. If I say anything that shows my rank ignorance though I'd expect to get called on it. That's really the only way to learn, right?

Y'all ladies can be a bit intense, but I get the feeling its coming from a place of love.

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Originally Posted by ErikaS

I just want to chirp in by saying I am just starting my journey and there times I'm still not sure what to do. But I was willing to step in front of a bus. I had reached the point to me something has to change. I look to you all wonderful girls for guidance and stories support the can make some sense. I don't know how this is going to play out I only want to fit in. I also know I'll never pass but who caries. I'm still in the army reserve for 5-7 more years so fear and omg what my fellow Soldiers are going to think. I have hope of the change is coming to make it better.

Erika

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ok here goes..

you mentioned being a trans ambassador in another thread
turn it down a notch... you don't have to fly into the sun to make your life better..
you don't have to be super tranny to help people..

what you want to do is brutal and intense...it will lay you bare and challenge everyone around you...

i like your positive energy and hope for change..

i think maybe you should set your goals a bit lower...your goal should be to survive and thrive...and then you will find out who you are...then you will find out what transition actually is and what the daily grind is really like..

what are your next steps for yourself...what are you specifically doing right now to make this happen for you??? that's where your focus needs to be.

and stay away from buses!!!

Where is the Like button? Kaitlyn, that is the best piece of advice I think I have seen on this forum. Bravo!!!

We should create an alternative Hall of Justice with Supertranny, Superfluous, Superabundant and Supercilious!

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Originally Posted by LeaP

There is a special problem with transsexualim when it comes to authority. That is, the most knowledgeable people on the topic are transsexuals, most of whom are not researchers! The average doctor has little to no real perspective, never mind training on the topic. When they do, it's narrow (endo, surgeon, therapist, whatever). And even they are often not current. When the very best (and I really mean exactly that) you can muster is a bunch of armchair experts, recognize that the only way they got there, at any level, isn't just because they are well-read. It's because being pushed HARD by challenges is needed to make-up for lack of holistic perspective that long and rigorous training yields. It's a poor substitute that leaves loose ends and holes everywhere, but that's what we have. Expect challenge and refutation. Welcome it.

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This is definitely something for me to contribute! (although I think it is way off the OP...)

Sadly, I agree with your appraisal that authorities in this matter are not very knowledgeable on this topic. But that begs the question, how knowledgeable should one become before one is deemed knowledgeable? Experts in schizophrenia often admit that there is still a lot they don't know despite a century of research.

I read a lot of the medical/psychiatric literature around this topic, along with autobiographies, sources from this forum (ie. Anne Vitale), and speak with some experts in my area who deals primarily in gender dysphoric individuals, I've even been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and I still feel like I don't know enough.

Awhile ago, I was accused by one of my patients who has gender dysphoria of not understanding her. I just nodded and remained silent. She probably interpreted that as "me not understanding her too."

I agree that one's internal world is forever exclusive. Nobody can understand anybody completely except to come to an approximation.

But that begs the second question, how well should we know each other to be of help?

The endocrinologist may know little about gender dysphoria, but he helps with HRT. The surgeon may know nothing about HRT, but he performs the surgery. The therapist may have no medical knowledge, but he helps us explore our sexuality and come to terms with GD. Each of them have a very narrow understanding of GD but you need them all in order to transition smoothly. Are they not helping then?

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Originally Posted by LeaP

I think we are discussing different aspects of dreams/fantasy. One is unrealized - yet realistic - possibility. This serves as an important internal driver, even when it FEELS unrealistic or unachievable. The other is escapism. It doesn't drive toward solutions, it drives away from them. There is a place for that in life, too, but not here, IMO.

I do understand your point on logic and empathy. It is a balance for which I strive but don't seem to hit often enough. My need to be rigorous and exhaustive produces writing that is perceived as aggressive and intimidating, unfortunately.

As far as the forum's purpose, it is nominally support and on transsexual topics only. The need, from a support perspective, isn't coaxing people from dream to realization because the problem that typically presents is confusion. Fantasy interjects primarily in the form of unrealistic, escapist scenarios when it comes from these people. Its continuance is enabled when people feed it.

So what about the realization of real things, then? Support for this happens ALL THE TIME HERE. Why doesn't anyone recognize this? It may be as gentle as encouraging someone to go out, to experiment. It can be experiential when people recount how they got around their fears. It can be consoling and forgiving when it comes to failures and backsteps. But it doesn't happen until a measure of clarity and need has emerged, nor should it. To encourage someone down that path before they are ready is dangerous and destructive.

As I recall, you are a doctor. If so, I hope you won't be offended by this, but giving medical advice, whether presented in factual form or not, is never a mere presentment of facts. In any event, I didn't say he pandered ... I (effectively) said he did not. Your self-indulgence (better than "pandering" I think) point is valid and that does happen regularly in the forum.

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I think you put matters well and I agree with you regarding the dreams/fantasy topic, the support perspective, and the realization of real things.

I am not offended by anything. :)

I like your concept of 'confusion' which some people present with. The question is, who decides if they are 'confused'?

Do we decide if a person is confused if they present with an idea which seems unrealistic according to our standards?

Do we then attempt to re-orientate them to reality by challenging them? Are we assuming ourselves to be the ultimate authority in this matter?

I guess we can exert ourselves as the 'authority' in this matter but bear this in mind, we are not surgeons, endocrinologists, or therapists.

We are not trained to evaluate the suitability of surgery the way a surgeon can, or the safety of taking HRT, or the psychological conflicts at play.

We cannot perform surgery, prescribe HRT, or engage in therapy with others.

All we have, is a set of experience unique to ourselves which cannot be generalized because everybody's experience is different.

If you argue that the surgeon, endocrinologist, and therapist have a narrow understanding of GD, which I agree, then how narrow is our understanding of GD except when it pertains to ourselves?

I would argue that unless you are a SRS surgeon, a TS endocrinologist, a gender therapist, and an individual with GD, you can't claim yourself to be the 'authority' in this matter. Right?

Just trying to gain some perspective here.

Love,
S

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Originally Posted by sarahcsc

.... But that begs the question, how knowledgeable should one become before one is deemed knowledgeable? ....

....., I've even been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and I still feel like I don't know enough.

Awhile ago, I was accused by one of my patients who has gender dysphoria of not understanding her. I just nodded and remained silent. She probably interpreted that as "me not understanding her too."

Nobody can understand anybody completely except to come to an approximation. ...............

But that begs the second question, how well should we know each other to be of help?

...........I like your concept of 'confusion' which some people present with. The question is, who decides if they are 'confused'?

Do we decide if a person is confused if they present with an idea which seems unrealistic according to our standards?

Do we then attempt to re-orientate them to reality by challenging them? Are we assuming ourselves to be the ultimate authority in this matter?

All we have, is a set of experience unique to ourselves which cannot be generalized because everybody's experience is different.

If you argue that the surgeon, endocrinologist, and therapist have a narrow understanding of GD, which I agree, then how narrow is our understanding of GD except when it pertains to ourselves?

I would argue that unless you are a SRS surgeon, a TS endocrinologist, a gender therapist, and an individual with GD, you can't claim yourself to be the 'authority' in this matter. Right?

Just trying to gain some perspective here.

Love,
S

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...you are aiming for something that is impractical

Most of us know plenty... and although we don't always know medically, we deal in a practical and pragmatic reality..

Does somebody want my advice?? I really can't worry about that

The more time you spend pondering the imponderable and searching for unknowable things, the more time you waste..

surely over time there will be more research, we can know more next year than last, but its 2015

If you have gender dysphoria, what are you gonna do about it??
that's the battle..

and we know that transition beats GD, we know that people can mitigate even without transition but it won't go away... we know the world dehumanizes and marginalizes us...
we know many many success and failure anecdotes about transition and frankly i think we know enough to give good solid PRACTICAL REAL LIFE advice...

I realize we are all different, we all focus on different things...i am nothing if not pragmatic... i had srs surgery and all i knew was to stop my hormones and pick a good doctor...i focused on beating GD to help overcome my shame and internal transphobia...

others will look at every detail of the procedure but there are bottom line things in life...some will get so caught up in this that they sputter and suffer

there are also risks...i wish it were different... transition carries many risks

....however i think one of the most misunderstood risks is to NOT TRANSITION... i say this because of how many people hit 50 60 70 and get slammed by their next level of dysphoria... the inability to predict whether this happens and the inablity to take a blood test for it (i wish we could) means that the PERSON HERSELF HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY to themselves to figure out where to go and what to do...

what is the 50 year old extreme GD suffering going to tell her wife after 10 years of saying i love you so much i am not going to transition?? the 60 year old after 20 years of fight fight fight...ask Caitlyn Jenner...

You pull the pin and get divorced in most cases. I only see accepting supportive wives in this forum. I have seen no experience of wives staying with their transitioned husband's in my area. There was a woman in my support group that stayed married for 3 years post-op, but divorced last Feb.

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Originally Posted by sarahcsc

..., how knowledgeable should one become before one is deemed knowledgeable?
...
But that begs the second question, how well should we know each other to be of help?

...Are they not helping then?
...
The question is, who decides if they are 'confused'?

Do we decide if a person is confused if they present with an idea which seems unrealistic according to our standards?

I guess we can exert ourselves as the 'authority' in this matter but bear this in mind, we are not surgeons, endocrinologists, or therapists.

We are not trained to evaluate the suitability of surgery the way a surgeon can, or the safety of taking HRT, or the psychological conflicts at play.

We cannot perform surgery, prescribe HRT, or engage in therapy with others.

All we have, is a set of experience unique to ourselves which cannot be generalized because everybody's experience is different.

If you argue that the surgeon, endocrinologist, and therapist have a narrow understanding of GD, which I agree, then how narrow is our understanding of GD except when it pertains to ourselves?

I would argue that unless you are a SRS surgeon, a TS endocrinologist, a gender therapist, and an individual with GD, you can't claim yourself to be the 'authority' in this matter. Right?

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In a self-help community, people share what they "know", have read, think, etc. When people draw conclusions across thinly populated knowledge areas, it gets dicey. That's why experience weighs so heavily. This is very unlike a single topic in which one has been deeply trained. That, in turn, bears on your questions about SRS surgeons and others. People like that will typically have expertise which the layperson cannot touch. It is too narrow for us, however. I doubt that the cis perspective of the average SRS surgeon is of much help when it comes to whether an individual should pursue SRS, what it will do in their particular case to relieve dysphoria.

The point on people presenting confused is much more straightforward. They tend to say it outright! Do a search on thread titles! I wasn't talking about judging people as confused. I was talking about taking them at face value.

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Originally Posted by sarahcsc

I've heard both horrendous and wonderful stories of transitioning, some were full of hardships while others were smooth sailing. Somehow, the former is emphasized but the latter ignored.

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For those lucky people who fall into the latter group, participation here is definitely difficult. A member describing their smooth experience will bring out those who had more difficult experiences, eager to "set the record straight" and "keep it real."

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Originally Posted by sarahcsc

It is the "don't transition unless you are faced with suicide or have absolutely no choice" mentality which generates so much negative views.

And the "you don't know what you're talking about unless you've gone through what I've gone through" mentality that creates the divide.

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Very true. Rather than try to make things as easy as possible for others who follow, the emphasis is almost on making sure that everyone has faced the same trials. Why should one have to descend into the pit all the way to attempting suicide before doing the things that will help us? Divorce, while common, isn't inevitable and it is harmful to those honoring their commitments to say that it is.

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Originally Posted by sarahcsc

Also, people who holds these mentalities are often the most vocal group as well.

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That's for sure. When I originally brought up the subject of attacking other members I didn't mention anyone by name, but who were the most vehement responders?

My father liked a saying that I later found was first said by Eleanor Roosevelt:

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.

Discussions about people tend to have the word "you" in them quite often. While the word cannot be avoided entirely, in civil conversation it is best to limit it as much as possible.

The reason smooth sailers are challenged were the ones that turned out to be fake. How would you suggest we make it easier for those contemplating of undergoing transition. Telling those individuals what a bed of roses it is to live their life authentically. The harsh brutal truth is uprooting your life and family can and sitters result in since serious life challenges. It is not like dressing for the weekend.

My transition has been relatively easy. I was ridiculed, but never assaulted, verbally or physically. I am employed. I continue to own and run my own multi million dollar Electrical/ Mechanical business. I have lost very few friends and have made tons of new ones. My parents, siblings and children accept and still love me. I am divorced, but we get along and work daily as she is part owner of our business.
That said. It has been very difficult. It has been expensive. The first year full was easy. Living as a tranny is so much easier than integrating and living as female. My 2 nd year full-time has been more difficult which I will detail in more detail in another thread. There are other members here whose transitions border on fairy tale. I don't see them getting set straight. They are doing the hard work. Their circumstances allow for a smoother transition.

I will still disagree that your opinion of what it is like to transition is much value about what to expect unless you are actively or have transitioned. You can experience segments of transition and kinda get a feel. But until you go full-time all the time. You can't know.
That concept of experience holds true for anything in life. You can read about open heart surgery, procedures, complications etc. But you can't know how you will react until you do it.

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Originally Posted by sarahcsc

I've heard both horrendous and wonderful stories of transitioning, some were full of hardships while others were smooth sailing. Somehow, the former is emphasized but the latter ignored

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I don't know what forums you've been reading, but they are not on this site...

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Originally Posted by sarahcsc

It is the "don't transition unless you are faced with suicide or have absolutely no choice" mentality which generates so much negative views.

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Or to be more precise it is exactly this kind of deliberate misrepresentation of what is written that causes the problems.

My experience with this site. I was welcomed. I ask for advice and received it. Sometimes I liked it sometimes I didn't. What I didn't do was confront with hostility and I received none in return. I still like it here but mostly just as an observer. I will post occasionally but mostly only do so in my journal now.

Edit here
Just was wondering. Does anyone here think that perhaps the reason some of us have an easier time of it is because of those that went before? Many come here for help and guidance and it may be/have been you and your knowledge and resources that help someone else avoid some of the pitfalls. To those that helped me THANK YOU!!

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Originally Posted by Eryn

When I originally brought up the subject of attacking other members I didn't mention anyone by name, but who were the most vehement responders?

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Post-transition forumites.

Well, I was going to sit back and read as I tend to stay out of the more contentious threads, but lets see what I can add on where some of this is going.

As I have probably said far too many times, my transition was great. I am out some money and time and that is it. So how have I felt about the general feel here as a person with a "good" story?

First, there were some different people here when I first started reading the Transexual Forum to gather my thoughts then there are now. One was a particular pain in my nether regions and I don't miss her. Way too full of herself. I am here to say that she absolutely propogated the sense that anyone not as far along as her was beneath her. So I certainly took in comments back then that I thought were seriously in the "you can not possibly understand my experience you little turd". When we had the last major exodus, the ones that were like that left and that was before I had announced my transitioning.

During the start of my transition, I did feel that the sense was that you had to be where you could not continue in order to reach the point of transitioning. It was embedded in my mind I know this for sure because it was what was on my mind during therapy sessions and caused me the most trepidations, not real experiences. And it also was what worked on me post transition as I kept wondering when the hammer was going to fall. I am not saying that was a direct line said to me, but the composite input of all threads left me with that takeaway. Rianna was the first to jump in and say that I didn't need to feel that way and my path was valid. Then Kelly. Then others. Those comments helped settle my mind some, but the general thought remained with me. So my sense then was that the outward appearance was that you had to be at the breaking point, but the hearts of everyone wasn't so rigid. My guess then is that those who hadn't yet transitioned, just weren't seeing the other perspective as it was probably not a topic far too often.

Through my transition, the support was great and informative, There would be the occasional person who would say something I knew not to be true like a marriage could not possible survive in its previous state of being full of love and sexual attraction. Those people would get me irate and it consisted of people who had transitioned and who didn't, so no one group was totally clear of this behavior. I will always say that anything is possible, it may be a minority but you can't discount other people's experience.

This thread in particular and the one it forked from are examples of why I stay out when it gets contentious. I am not one that likes to enter the fray, although I might joke around like posting the flame proof suit. It just is not my style, which is fine. We are all different. But I am seeing some posts that are probably more combative than the authors normally write and I think it is the topic bringing it out. So read only mode tends to be a good choice for me.

One recent thought is one I disagree with in the way it seems to be getting presented. I was "full time except for work" for a long time. I know I didn't get the full experience and could not possibly know how it is being full time. But I think I did get a lot of the experience and I also believe that was a great path towards my transition going so well. Many people already knew Sue and I had already achieved a high level of comfort. Yes I had anxiety over work and that was because I value my job (who doesn't?). But I think we are overshooting the target and not giving enough credit to those that are out and about all except for work as they are getting an education and they are getting used to a level of discrimination and the stares. I have a lot of friends that are "all except for work" or middle panthers and they have a lot of experiences that are just like mine, minus the work ones. It depends how much they are all in on the non-work part of it. And this comment is from one that did live full time except for work, transitioned, and has almost a year under my belt. Yes, I know I have more to learn. That is probably the main thing that keeps me here as I sometimes wonder if I should stay.

BTW, there are multiple people here who have met me or talked on FaceTime/Skype, so I am not like a certain person no longer here. :D

Just another way of doing it,, If your out everywhere but work that just means you havent went all the way an you are STILL TRANSITIONING !! If you are out all the way at work and EVERYWHERE than I guess your DONE? Maybe I am wrong but that is the way I see it? Hell I see folks that are Cross dressers and are in real early stages of there transition and I feel sorry for them in my head,,lol,, Even though I am still a Rookie but I am that much further than them. Who knows how far you will make it? See most people can't or don't have a lot of money to stop working or they couldn't do it,, An if they have insurance that is a Big one,, So they have to stay stealth to make the insurance pay,,lol,, Hell I don't blame them one bit. Like I said do it your way because you are the only one that knows you better than anyone.

Eryn your broad generalizations simply do not hold water...
you color everyone with your broad brush and its you that is a big part of the problem.

here's what makes me laugh..

here some of us are, talking about how hard it was to make our way as women, sharing stories, jobs issues, marriage issues, shame issues, money issues....

and you are here talking about how you don't want to hear it... but you want to talk about how hard it is to feel comfortable posting on a message board forum about it....

its literally hilarious

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Originally Posted by Nigella

We have no real way of knowing who is and who isn't full time and living the life of their true gender. ....

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Except some of us have met in RL and can vouch for each other.

I have been on this site for a long time, right through my actual transition. I have been through a lot of ups and downs here. Yet, overall, it is the information of a factual type as well as the recounting of the experiences of others, which has been of the greatest value. I owe those behind the site's existence and those making it work, day by day, a debt of gratitude. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

Eryn your broad generalizations simply do not hold water...

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Considering that there have been 95 posts in three days in a thread that began simply by quoting my assertions there seems to be considerable substance to what I wrote.

The ironic thing is that I did not start this thread. If Anne had not decided that my post from another thread was worth quoting the discussion would not have continued.

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Originally Posted by Sue

I was "full time except for work" for a long time. I know I didn't get the full experience and could not possibly know how it is being full time. But I think I did get a lot of the experience and I also believe that was a great path towards my transition going so well.

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Problem with 'full-time except for work' is that it's an oxymoron, however I get what you mean, I am guilty of having said that in the past and the reason is this.
Ok, so you are not fulltime, we know that, except when I was 'part time' it was serious, I did absolutely everything as a woman (just couldn't do work just yet, had to change job and settle in a bit), so I did well over a year where I faced every single situation as a woman.
Yes I was part time, but the problem is a lot of part timers pick and choose and often go to male for trickier situations, I didn't. I think 'full-time except work' although clearly wrong kinda separates from the non serious.

So when people say I'm 'full-time except work', I realise it's not the correct wording but I understand the meaning behind it.

And because my experience outside work was the real deal, it set me up well for full-time, work went smoothly because I was ready and prepared.
I think that's a very different experience to a lot of the part timers. How do you differentiate, without saying anything less than full-time is to be almost dismissed?

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Originally Posted by becky77

I did absolutely everything as a woman (just couldn't do work just yet, had to change job and settle in a bit), so I did well over a year where I faced every single situation as a woman.

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But you see, Becky, you are falling into the same trap as those who want us to believe that full-time-except-work is the same as full-time.

I don't doubt that you were serious, but you did not face every single situation as a woman until you were out at work. Before that you didn't experience any of your work situations as a woman.

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Originally Posted by Rianna Humble

But you see, Becky, you are falling into the same trap as those who want us to believe that full-time-except-work is the same as full-time.

I don't doubt that you were serious, but you did not face every single situation as a woman until you were out at work. Before that you didn't experience any of your work situations as a woman.

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True, not the best wording then. I was trying to say the experience although not fulltime encompassed many aspects.
For example buying a new car, I bet most part timers would go as a guy, I didn't. My philosophy was there is no turning back full-time, so the part time should be the same.

As I said other than work (which is the big defining change for sure), all other stuff was as female, not just a weekend away or shopping at the mall or drinks with friends.

I think there is big differences to the levels of people's experiences before full-time, that part time doesn't necessarily capture.

I've heard so called fulltimers that go back to being male to face a particular difficult situation or relative, I didn't do that part time let alone full-time.

The issue isn't the experience it's the quality of that experience.

Because so many non-fulltimers avoid the more challenging situations, there is a tendency that only full-time can be taken seriously.

Ok, here's the point where I have to chime in. I know it's just a phrase, but the notion that non full timers dress as men when convenient may well imply a lot of things. It may mean we aren't ready or willing to risk our employment. It may mean we haven't yet decided to transition. It may mean that our presence here is all an elaborate and pointless hoax. However, except for the latter, I would hope we might be taken seriously.

Our experiences and our aspirations are (generally) valid and may be as helpful to people contemplating their identity and their future as the experiences of genuine full timers.

Sue's case illustrates the point. She did eventually go full time, but before that elected come out first in her social network. She could have done it all at once, but her sequence of actions seems, thus far to have worked pretty well for her. I know...it's a unique case, but then aren't we all?

I put the "full-time except for work" in quotes because it is an oxymoron, but it is what we are using and we all seem to be in the same ballpark on what it means and that includes some (me included) who had avoided certain situations. Maybe we shortcut to FTEFW? :-) Mine were simply if I got up on Friday morning and had an appointment I could run as a guy and come back and get ready for the day. So it amounted to the mechanic, dentist, and optometrist. I admit I got soft when it was easy to be soft. So I agree with Becky on her comments. There is a difference in FT and FTEFW, no doubt.

There are two thing some of this comes down to though.

First, each person's experience is different than others. My FTEFW went years and I know I had more experience than some people at their point of going full time. I think in trying to tell those currently in FTEFW that their experience isn't the same, we lose the thought that they are gaining valuable experience. It is a big deal to have a lot of the social aspects and a large percentage of the coming out already dealt with at the point of transition so you can focus on work, paperwork, and other things and have the overall mental burden lower.

Second, each person's life is going to be different. One of my catch phrases is we each have our own trans-life, our own trans-story. There is a local that has done a lot in the community. She is a CD and is presenting for what I perceive to be all activities except for heavy exercise (she likes long bike rides across the country). I recognize her contributions and her experience. What gets under my skin is her telling people what is trans* and what isn't. For example, the first time she got my attention was pre-transition, but I was thinking about it. She said in a group that once you start thinking about it, if you ever stand to pee, that is your sign to stop and turn around. How many of us wouldn't transition because of that "rule"? This last week, she was knocking a transitioned lady for wearing a pink, frilly top because it sent the impression to others that it was all about being girly.

So my overall point is that we are recognizing what FTEFW isn't and there is a lot of value in that recognition. I think the points coming back are what it is. Both parts are relevant and the "what it is" part seems to be getting minimized and I think it is important to recognize the value.

Jeeez Anne, can't you write about tacos or something??? ;)