Don't want to be a man anymore, do you ?

Well said, Gabby. Boiled the whole thing down to a digestible essence, a precÃ*s.

Actually, none of the three is "easy". Even the most happy-go-lucky occasional, just-for-the-fun-of-it CD has arrived there with or after at least some issues. We're all acutely aware that we're up against a stubborn taboo, and we've all heard snide comments and crude jokes about cross-gender behavior from the unwashed masses and media, all our conscious lives.

It's also common to spend years assuring oneself that "I'm just a heterosexual crossdresser", only to (often abruptly) find oneself on a slippery slope of doubt and second-guessing. That's why this forum, with its several subgroups, is so valuable. We can traverse that slope, cling to it with our (painted) fingernails, or let gravity take us where it will, with the counsel and support (and sometimes criticism) of our fellow travelers, whose divergent perspectives can help us unpack whatever our particular life's-little-curve-ball happens to be.

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Originally Posted by windshear

I don't want to be mean or vindictive, but I feel a need to respond to a couple of these as I think I can articulate the problem a little better.

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Sigh.

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Originally Posted by windshear

If someone else, in the same belittling manner, claimed that you were "just mentally ill" and your perceived "needs" were just "wants", it would be decried as bigotry. You are, I think unknowingly, employing the same bigotry and applying it to different people, do you not understand?

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First of all, plenty of people do precisely that. Many people here have done and do precisely that, including the person to whom I was originally responding to in this thread.

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Originally Posted by windshear

You are making assumptions about people you do not fully understand. Again, I'm not trying to be mean, I'm not speaking ill of you, I'm merely trying to point out what I perceive to be an error.

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I generally take people at their word. When the majority of people here routinely assert that they are natal males who are straight straight straight men and that they just like to wear women's clothes because it's enjoyable and feels good to them, then I do not think that I am making an unreasonable assumption by saying that the majority of them are cisgender men who like to play dress up. You can argue with my tone, but I don't see the assumption that I'm making.

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Originally Posted by windshear

When you feel like you can make such broad claims about others you inevitably open yourself up to the same. You cannot have it both ways. By your own stated standards, there simply is no objective benchmark to say that you "needed" to transition any more than anyone else on here that has not, or will not, for any variety of reasons.

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Please point me towards a broad claim that I've made that is not solidly based on what the people I'm describing in them have actually posted here, and I will consider your point.

Moreover, there is absolutely a benchmark for needing to transition. It's when not transitioning leads to unmanageable disruption, often an inexorable downward spiral, in the most fundamental aspects of your life, and the only way out of it is transition and living honestly. Alternatively, it's what a qualified diagnosis of a specified gender identity disorder (transexualism) used to mean, and really probably should still mean.

First and foremost thank you for the response, Zooey.

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Originally Posted by Zooey

First of all, plenty of people do precisely that.

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And that becomes your license to do the same?

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Originally Posted by Zooey

I generally take people at their word.

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I don't doubt that, but I think you've misinterpreted them.

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Originally Posted by Zooey

When the majority of people here routinely assert that they are natal males who are straight straight straight men and that they just like to wear women's clothes because it's enjoyable and feels good to them ...

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So here's the point of contention: based on what I've read here (not to mention my own experiences) this absolutely is not a "just like" kind of thing. There are countless, innumerable threads out there that show that CDing is far beyond mere interest, hobby, "like", or even compulsive behavior. It is something much more and far beyond any of that. You calling it something we "just like" to do is like telling someone with a missing right arm that its just a "minor inconvenience".

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Originally Posted by Zooey

Please point me towards a broad claim that I've made that is not solidly based on what the people I'm describing in them have actually posted here, and I will consider your point.

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There's another thread open on page one right here- titled Is it a gift or a curse? Curious wording for something we "just like" to do, I'd think. Another one titled Do you "NEED" to dress or just "WANT" to dress? shows pretty clearly the same thing. But then you say, "Ah hah! Its a WANT, now isn't it?", yet countless threads employ a phrase: "Crossdressing is like the Mafia, You just can't quit". How many of the people who respond "want" could actually quit forever?

Probably the strongest evidence I've seen yet debunking your notion is the terminology "pink fog", something I'm really struggling with right now (and what prompted me to join this forum).

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Originally Posted by Zooey

Moreover, there is absolutely a benchmark for needing to transition. It's when not transitioning leads to unmanageable disruption, often an inexorable downward spiral, in the most fundamental aspects of your life, and the only way out of it is transition and living honestly. Alternatively

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That isn't an objective benchmark, Zooey. You're saying: "A because B". Your feelings "lead[ing] to unmanageable disruption, often an inexorable downward spiral, in the most fundamental aspects of your life", does not mean objectively that the prescription is transition. Use the following logic:

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I want to be a woman badly enough that it is causing disruption in my life. Therefore, the only possible solution is to be given a woman's body (or a facsimile of one).

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Parallels logically with:

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I want the cash in the register behind the counter badly enough that it is causing disruption in my life. Therefore, the only possible solution is to be given the cash in the register.

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Your feelings and the subsequent disruptions do not mandate transition as the only, possible, logical, solution. It sure is what you'd like to do, but it isn't objectively what you need. Now, I understand that this a quite confrontational and not-so-nice comparison. I want you to look more at the logical fallacy here than the content. I mainly want to prove the point that you opened yourself up to this exact line of scrutiny (want vs need) by asserting that people like myself "want", but don't "need" to CD. That's you declaring that something else could fill that void- something I think you need to rethink.

Others have been less eloquent in their passion on this issue. I don't think they simply want to go after you, I just think they want what they, and myself perceive clearly as their (or other's) needs acknowledged. Just like you perceive the need for transition.

I think that you are missing the actual debate here. Apologies for my part in confusing it by responding to criticism I've received.

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Originally Posted by windshear

So here's the point of contention: based on what I've read here (not to mention my own experiences) this absolutely is not a "just like" kind of thing. There are countless, innumerable threads out there that show that CDing is far beyond mere interest, hobby, "like", or even compulsive behavior. It is something much more and far beyond any of that. You calling it something we "just like" to do is like telling someone with a missing right arm that its just a "minor inconvenience"

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So, you're doing two things here. One, you're arguing that I'm dismissive of crossdressers. That's fair criticism, and while I have my reasons for the tone I take, it's irrelevant.

Two, you're making a point about whether CDs want or need to crossdress. I have no doubt whatsoever that there is an element of compulsion to it, although we clearly disagree on the nature of that compulsion and what constitutes a "need". I will learn from this thread so far and not even begin to describe my view on that here.

Beyond that though, I really don't care, because the discussion I was attempting to have with Theresa and Sara Jessica before people got upset over the "play dress-up" bit (and I made the mistake of responding to people) had little to nothing to do with whether CDing is a want, a need, a compulsion, or anything more than tangentially CD-related.

You provided two statements to illustrate your notion of my logic... I don't think that what you're comparing here is actually representative of my argument. Primarily, if you look at what I've been saying, I have never really been arguing whether some people have a perceived need to crossdress or not. If you read carefully, my issue has always been with the 1) those who claim to be TS but claim to be able to decide not to transition and 2) people who are CDs who say things like "I would totally transition, but <blah>". Here are some alternative statements for comparison that I would suggest.

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I am (medically) starving and, without additional food, I will die. Therefore, the only possible solution is to eat

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I am a woman. I was born with a male body, which is not aligned with my identity, leading to unbearable pain and/or death. Therefore, the only possible solution is to correct the alignment (the only known viable method being transition

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There is no "choice" in either of those statements. There is a fundamental assertion in the second statement that trans women are women, of course. Some people here disagree with that, explicitly or implicitly. The phrasing you chose in your statements suggests you may be one of the latter.

My point is simply that if you are able to choose not to transition, then transition is not a need for you. That is the only point I've had any interest in making here, since my first post in the thread.

The "no choice" argument is constructed in such a way that you'll always be correct. If you transitioned, you didn't have a choice. If you don't, you're not really TS. Being a woman in a man's body isn't your choice, but whether to, when to, and how to transition are choices.
I'm a crossdresser, not by choice. But I decide every day whether to crossdress or not.

You are correct that anybody who has transitioned can claim they needed to. However, anybody who asserts they can make the choice, assuming we take them at their word, rather clearly does not need to, by definition.

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Originally Posted by Jenniferathome

Really? "Dress up" as in what a little girl does when she puts on a princess or mermaid costume? I don't play "dress up."

You are either completely obtuse or you choose to find the most offensive way to make your point. I am a man who is a cross dresser but "dress up" demeans virtually all cross dressers as if we are some joke. I am no less valid, no more of a joke, than you.

Here's someone playing "dress-up": http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...es!&highlight=

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Jennifer, having read subsequent posts I think that the offence is calculated and deliberate.
Actually I missed Zooey's remark until you called it out - simply because when I saw her post I yawned and skipped to the next one, as has become my habit. Nuff said?

Got to say I found that remark highly offensive too. What I do is far more than throwing on some clothes and make up and parading around admiring myself.

I never in my life felt I was a male. I had to beat to my own drum and it took me a long while to come to peace with myself and my gender fluid condition. but yes were were raised as a man, but I knew in my heart that I was not a typical male, however I lived that way for a lot of years but secretly started to do things as a woman would do. I looked at all of their stuff and what they did to keep in shape as a female. So I had ahead start on understanding womanhood. I do know what feminine is and when I am that way I do feel that way. But some bigots here tell us that we are wrong. I do understand TS ways and I have said to myself that I was born male and I will die that way, although I might be dressed as a woman when that happens. But truthfully, I never though of myself as a male. I have much more in common with the females. Empathy is one of them. as well as compassion.

Time to say something controversial. :)

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Originally Posted by Dana44

I never in my life felt I was a male.

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I consider crossdressing in particular, to be an alpha-male pattern behavior.

Too often, alpha behavior is assumed to be synonymous with machismo- being obnoxious, defiant, belligerent or asserting their alleged greater masculinity- its not true "alpha-ism". Its simply emulating an extremist masculine stereotype and frankly indicates some insecurity.

I believe that the true alpha-male trait is deciding who you are, on your own terms. Choosing what you believe, who you identify with, how you feel and react to the world around you. Social norms may impact your outward behavior and choices (such as choosing to be in the closet), but they do not dictate who you've chosen to be at your core.

I would say that the choice many of us have taken- not simply the road less traveled, but the truly difficult path of being something different that what society has imposed upon you as its ideal, all while balancing and moderating your outward behavior no less- makes you more of a man than most. A true, alpha male.

Especially when one rejects typical masculine traits and behavior, instead familiarizing with and adopting of feminine traits and behavior. By one's own free will.

Okay, as the list of people responding to it grows... I officially apologize for the "playing dress-up" remark. My intent wasn't malicious, but the tone was unquestionably dismissive. Some of that has to do with who I was directly responding to, but regardless... It was dismissive, so I'm sorry for that.

Zooey, I never thought your intent was malicious. It was a flippant, indelicate way to characterize the vast range of behaviors that can fall under the description of (more or less) straight males wearing women's clothing on any basis more regular than a Halloween lark, but it it nevertheless a form of play for many (I would guess a majority). Serious, practiced, meaningful, grown-up play, but still play, especially for fetishistic CDs. It is more serious than a child's mermaid costume, and we are all aware of the many reasons, both implicit and those we express and own, why we do it, but, unless one is making a living from it or deeply ensnared in it as a core personality expression, it remains a form of play, just as our other hobbies might be. If it's more than a hobby, we're into that vast gray area between the poles of the binary, and I like to believe that area is vast and accommodating.

I found the analogy of wanting the money in the cash register to be an inappropriate one that completely failed to credit the debilitating angst that leads one (and one's therapists and other providers) to make the transition decision. There is such a thing as looking at how you spend your days and how your moods change and whether you're thriving in life, then taking a big step back and having no honest choice but to conclude that it's causing the requisite disruption of normal activities. At that point, you're at a diagnostic threshold that is beyond simply persuading yourself to transition.

I give you full points for standing your ground and trying to make that distinction. A few deductions for style...:hugs:

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Originally Posted by Acastina

I found the analogy of wanting the money in the cash register to be an inappropriate one that completely failed to credit the debilitating angst that leads one (and one's therapists and other providers) to make the transition decision.

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To be fair, I did make clear that the content of the analogy was less relevant than the logic within. I could have been more delicate with a better analogy, or simplysaid that "Just because you want something, or perceive to need it, doesn't mean the best or only solution is to give it to you."

In the past, transition is not something a doctor would have prescribed someone. Nor in the future, when doctors will most likely prescribe something different- be it an enhanced form of "transition" involving cloning or other technology, pharmaceuticals, or therapy. Objectively, it cannot be said that any one solution (no matter how desirable it may seem to someone at any given time) is factually the best one available.

The only reason I made this argument is because Zooey trivialized the self-perceived needs of others as "wants". It opened her up to the line of scrutiny that she is objectively no different. Human beings can only rely on their own eyes, ears and hearts to perceive the world around them. Their own perceptions is all they've got, and sometimes one's perception is wrong. They learn to correct it. Its not like Zooey can see into the hearts of these people and tell them objectively what their needs are- the notion is absurd. She cannot demand that we acknowledge her needs and not acknowledge ours.

I applaud her reflection on the issue, and her willingness to apologize.

We get into trouble when we try and put other people on here into categories. There are a few people on this site who are basically saying I am X and if you are not like me you are Y. Some on here on both ends of the spectrum seem to struggle accepting that many of us on here do not fit into their simple categories. Gender is a continuum and we all sit somewhere along it. There are probably thousands of variations between us. If we stop trying to fit others into boxes we want them to fit into, this world here would be a happier place.

So that means some of us always want to be men, but dress like women sometimes, others want to be women and transition, other want to be women but are unable to transition, some of us want to be women some of the time, some of us don't know what we are and thats only 6 possibilities.

Prancing around the house !

This was a comment my wife made about me being dressed around the house, I'm afraid I did stop her and ask if she felt she pranced around the house when doing the chores, she replied no ! I just shrugged my shoulders and added neither do I, it's part of me and I do the same jobs in the same way she does. I do cook all the meals and do most of the cleaning.

Zooey,
I respect you for making the apology, I remember once you saying it was your way of expressing yourself the same way your mother use to . I guess to her a spade was a spade too, no mincing of words !

I don't know how anyone who knows themselvels as a woman can choose to live as a man and thinks putting on some womens cloths from time to time makes it better.

Becky that is the reason that some of us become upset. We are not men that wanted to be women. We are women who fought with everything we had to make the world treat us for who we have always been. I don't have any disrespect for cross dressers. Some of my closest friends consider themselves to be cross dressers or did in the past. Please hear us! When you make it a choice then you give the world the power to tell us that it is the wrong choice. I will defend your right to wear a dress as long as you defend my struggle to exist.

Replying to the whole thread, I have a comment. We hide so much from others, from ourselves, some of us to the extent we go over 50 years without noticing the true who-i-am-ness. When the lid comes off, it can be explosive, or ot can be a series of minor eruptions; each step taken allows the next to be seen, and before the end, a person who thought they'd been male realised it had all been b/s. At every point in this journey, a person may well believe they are being honest with themselves, and even with others. It's all down to how buried it is.

After working with 100's of client on the whole gamut of life issues, I've given up predicting where a person's process will end up. Teresa might well discover that he is a she, or he might realise he is a he who prefers to present and live life as a woman. It's not up to us to judge or pre-judge, but to give the helping questions and insights along the way.

xxx Pam

I don't want to be a man anymore.

We jump all over each other for how we choose our words. Sometimes what was received was not what was intended. I'm not offended by "play dress up" - that's kind of what I do while realizing there's something deeper underlying. But for other CDers, it's not play, it's serious. We're not all the same (news flash). I dont like the use of "just a crossdresser", so I blow it off without responding. Say "just a transwoman" and heads explode.
An apology followed the "play dress up" comment. No malicious intent. I don't think there was malicious intent with Becky's use of "want to be", but a better choice of words would have been preferable and reflected the reality of "AM a woman", without a body to match.
I am a man, but not because i want to be one, I just am, and I embrace everything it means: son, brother, husband, dad, provider, handyman, hunter, fisherman, sports enthusiast, etc........except for that one rule: real men don't wear dresses. Not bad. 9 out of 10.
That brings me back to the OP title question. It's not about wanting or not to be a man, it's about discovering, accepting, and embracing what you are. Unfortunately, relationships with others make answers to the question not so easy.

I continue to be amazed at the insight of everyone to such challenging posts. I feel that being exposed to so many responses and differences of thought is a blessing that we all should enjoy to the fullest even if they don't match our's. That's how we learn and develop. Thank you, ladies for that!
As for moi, in my life I must be male, but I'd love to be a full time woman.

Pamela,
That reply is the best I've read for some time, and so sums up my situation and I'd guess many others. To some of us the core of our CDing is so buried it takes far too long to finally come to the surface !

Arbon,
I know the answer to that now but not ready to reveal my thoughts yet.

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Originally Posted by Teresa

Arbon,
I know the answer to that now but not ready to reveal my thoughts yet.

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I don't know what the question was?

teresa by the comments that your wife uses towards you i really think it is disrespectful, almost like she thinks she is talking to someone other than the person who shared so much of theyre lives together with, i hope for a favorable resolve to your situation but your statements have me doubting it will but i wish you well

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Originally Posted by Acastina

Zooey, I never thought your intent was malicious. It was a flippant, indelicate way to characterize the vast range of behaviors that can fall under the description of (more or less) straight males wearing women's clothing on any basis more regular than a Halloween lark, but it it nevertheless a form of play for many (I would guess a majority). Serious, practiced, meaningful, grown-up play, but still play, especially for fetishistic CDs. It is more serious than a child's mermaid costume, and we are all aware of the many reasons, both implicit and those we express and own, why we do it, but, unless one is making a living from it or deeply ensnared in it as a core personality expression, it remains a form of play, just as our other hobbies might be. If it's more than a hobby, we're into that vast gray area between the poles of the binary, and I like to believe that area is vast and accommodating.

P................................................. ................P
I give you full points for standing your ground and trying to make that distinction. A few deductions for style...:hugs:

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acastina you make some good points.

i must be immune to zo's style and i dont understand all the offense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dress%20up

https://www.google.com/search?q=play...lay+definition

folks here routinely express the clothing + time + venue = blending so your dressing for an event, my events have me dressing down.

the clothes make me feel good, they calm me, started to dress up at an early age as a boy.
they emphatically state they are not transgender and are not "gay" is this the very definition cisgender, but wearing the clothing of the opposite sex is gender non conforming. dont know how cisgender applies there

zooey was responding to someone who had some disparaging remarks about the pre-existance of someone who transitions in post #3, maybe she should get a pass on that reply, i have seen the posters very hateful version of that same argument from time to time. again to them it was a truthful statement and they will make the same every chance the get. does make some shock value though.

then J@H took offense to the comment to krisi and shared some fotos of zooey (which seemed like jen was kinda being demeaning) for what was a pretty accurate description of how some here identify which krisi does. later jen shared here : http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...single-picture! and declared to be "playing"... took a lot of attention away from teresa's evolving situation

this was my rub from what ive seen, folks say theyre need to tell the truth and protest when someone challenges or offers a different version of truth, or opinions as some say. some come and dont even add value to the original post, bumping up theyre post count ? trying to troll ? too emotional ? there are enough people out there that hate us, cant we show a little more compassion towards each other here ?

teresa is at a vital cusp in her life from what im reading here and although zooey is aggressive with her truths about transition she means well when she tries to convey the seriousness of the decision to go all the way. teresa seemed to get offended and then appreciative eventually.

the thread was about Teresa and was trolled by rude posts with noting to do with teresa or her wife....

I wasn't going to respond to the inclusion of an old photo thread of mine, but since it's been quoted/mentioned a couple of times...

For what it's worth I had been socially full-time (not out at work yet, but everywhere else) for a couple of months when that pic thread was posted, and had spent the afternoon in that dress at a women's (not trans) Meetup. I wouldn't call that "dressing" at that point by nearly any definition, regardless of the fact that I decided to take funny face selfies. Realistically, I was months into transition, although I didn't fully come to grips with the reality of that for another 3 months.