Crosdressing can be an irreconsilabe difference!

I opened this thread because to often the wives and girlfriends of Crossdressers and TGs who come out long into a marriage or relationship are made out to be the bad ones. Gender variance of any kind is a very difficult thing for people to understand and deal with, not to mention being blindsided by it.

I realize some are very cool with it and are very supportive and thats wonderful. I also recognize that others although they dont like this part of their husbands or boyfriends life work very hard through their fears and issues to be supportive, out of love, which to me is absolutely beautiful!

Heterosexual women are attracted to men! Is it really some big mystery? They are not internalizing homophobia! That was an actual response I read recently about why women reject TGs "fear of homosexuality in themselves no other reason" I have never heard anything so silly in my life! They are not closed minded! They are attracted to men!

And fore those women who just can't cope with the reality of their husband or boyfriend being CD/TG or can't get past the broken trust issues, or the fear, or societal pressure, or whatever other reason associated with this lifestyle or condition or whatever label you want use. Shouldn't be vilified for saying I cant take it.

I also just wanted to say I was fully prepared to have my marriage end when I came out. Thankfully it didn't I would have been heartbroken and devestated. But I recognized the fact that this was a dealbreaker and told her so. Not only that but the lying and betrayal as well. Women do not sign up for this!

Daphne, you are so right! My married life was different from yours, as I told her that I was a CD before we married. She accepted me, and fully supported me during the almost 50 years we had together before cancer took her! I let her know at the very beginning that I was her MAN, no matter what clothing I had on!! As you said so well, heterosexual women are attracted to MEN!! I do love to dress, but I am a man and have no desire to be a woman. I just like to dress like one!!

You are also right in stating that many CD's/TG's do not seem to recognize the fact that most women are not attracted to them! Especially if they have been lying about it! That is why I told my late wife when I asked her to marry me!! Every marriage deserves, and should have, total honesty!!

All that said, Don't be sad!! Life is too short for that!!

Your post is on the mark in many ways. I will add that many women that do accept their SO's need or desire to dress, accept it solely out of love for their partner. No, they would have never sought out a CD, but love is a strong emotion that allows us to accept things we otherwise would never allow in our lives. It's easy to fall in love and usually very difficult to fall out of love. Even with the revelation that a GG's partner is transgendered, she will hang in there and fight through the pain, fears and questions this new discovery presents.
It's a no brainer, the woman is/was attracted to a man, not a man that likes to dress and act feminine. I fully understand how this can hurt her, scare her and turn her off. I have nothing but empathy for any woman that is faced with her SO coming out to her. She has every reason and right to be upset and yes, even unreasonable and hurtful with her SO initially. I can't blame her. To those women, this is earth shattering news. Most women have no idea about the psychological reasons for a man that engages in crossdressing. The only thing she has to go on is what she may have seen on TV or read in the newspaper. Usually it's all negative news; Like a crossdressed bank robber, murderer, rapist or a guy that steals panties and bras off a clothesline. It's worse when she makes the discovery on her own as opposed to his telling her in a gentle way. I'm sure it's easier for her to accept if she is told early on in the relationship before she views it as a lie by omission or thoughts of what else is he not telling me. That has got to be the hardest for a woman to deal with.
It goes without saying, her acceptance has got a lot to do with the strength of the relationship on the everyday issues and general happiness with the relationship. It most certainly can go bad if other issues are present. Like his drinking to much, not calling or coming home on time....or general lack of consideration and affection toward her. It sure won't be easy if the marriage is going bad to begin with.
Add that many men are very poor communicators and fear opening up to their SO.
It is my opinion that many women can and will accept her husband's need to dress IF their is a strong foundation of trust, respect, intimacy, and most of all...LOVE.
If there are other issues in the marriage, a spouses finding out most definitely only compound the other issues.

The only thing I know for sure, from personal experience, my wife wants a husband, not a girl friend..

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Originally Posted by Karren Hutton

The only thing I know for sure, from personal experience, my wife wants a husband, not a girl friend..

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I bet that is all any wife wants from her mate. It's just that some women will at least try to accept their CD husband and in some cases be very comfortable in doing it. But that "man" had better not over-do the feminine thing. He has to be her man 90%+ of the time or most relationships with even an accepting wife will crumble. We all have limits of what we will and will not agree to, put up with or allow in our life. This of course includes even our very accepting wives.
My SO is very accepting and even enjoys my being a CD. In fact it was part of her attraction to me. However if I wanted to transition or go full time, she would no doubt end the relationship. She too wants a man and not a female as a life partner.

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Originally Posted by DaphneGrey

Heterosexual women are attracted to men! Is it really some big mystery? They are not internalizing homophobia! They are not closed minded! They are attracted to men!

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Right on!!! Thank you not only for saying this but doing so in such a direct, yet tactful manner.

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Originally Posted by BRANDYJ

It's easy to fall in love and usually very difficult to fall out of love.

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(OK...sleeve, meet my heart...)

Unfortunately, I kind of feel this is what is happening lately in my relationship.

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Originally Posted by BRANDYJ

But that "man" had better not over-do the feminine thing. He has to be her man 90%+ of the time or most relationships with even an accepting wife will crumble.

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Very true but depending on one's perspective, easier said than done. In a nutshell, even though I do not present as female around her or around my family, the overt markers are ever-present and in her face. Things that I'm sure bug the heck out of her...

1. Shaved legs.
2. Long hair.
3. My outings, about 2x per month, and the exhaustion that often follows.
4. Monthly electrolysis appointments.
5. We have an alcove off our master bedroom where pretty much every morning, I am able to steal some "girl time" over coffee & computer as I wake up much earlier than the rest of my family. So while technically I don't present as female around her, if she wakes up, it isn't hard for her to catch a glimpse of me.
6. "Under-dressing" of any kind.

Regarding #'s 1, 2 & 4, those are all about my trying to be the best I am able while navigating the middle path, trying to live two lives which are compartmentalized from one another. #5 seems like it'd be an easy one to eliminate since it bugs her so but what it does for me is lessens the "white noise" in my head for the remainder of the day. #6 has that effect as well. Without an ability to control the constant reminders of my gender issues, my ability to focus on a day to day basis would be diminished tremendously.

For some, their place on the tg spectrum is what they "do". For others, myself included, this place is who we are. I'm not saying one is easier to cope with than the other, nor am I offering up the fact that I am trying to navigate as who I am as an excuse for my behavior which has clearly pushed over the line in my relationship. It's simply an explanation...it is what it is, as is often said. All I can hope for at this point is that the love in our relationship can somehow rise above this whole thing. Yet my fear is that I'm seeing in her eyes that she may be falling out of love with me. Simply typing those words is enough to bring on tears.

Quote Originally Posted by DaphneGrey View Post
Heterosexual women are attracted to men! Is it really some big mystery? They are not internalizing homophobia! They are not closed minded! They are attracted to men!

Hmmm, generalizing here. I am in the Japenese visual Kei scene, and the Goth scene, and I KNOW this statement is patently untrue. There are hetero sexual women that like their men to appear feminine, and still be men. ( they are extremely rare, but I long to find one). This is the big mistake many here make. They are also falling into the trap of the thought process, "If the man puts on women's clothing and looks like a woman, then he must want to be a woman" This is exactly the same kind of thinking men had when women started to wear pants. This kinda of thought process is prevelant in many religions that forbid women from wearing pants.

It simply is not true in all cases. I have said many times, if it was not for the limitations imposed on men when it came to syle I would most likely never gotten into the full fem look. I would have just worn what I want, without changing my body shape with tucking, and breastforms. I am just me when I am in my clothing, I don't ACT feminine. I may move more feminine though...okay so?

By the way Shaved legs, not inharently feminine, it was started by the Roman Soldiers. Long hair, um...tell a scottman, or Viking, or Royal knight of old, his hair is too long. LOL

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Originally Posted by sissystephanie

...I told her that I was a CD before we married.

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Solves a lot of problems right there, don't it?

If people enter into a relationship with secrets then they shouldn't expect things to be A-OK when the secrets are exposed.

I am also lucky in that my wife accepts my need to dress and express my female side. But, she does not wish to participate and does not want my male side to go away. It is a delicate balance that we seemed to have reached. I must constantly remind myself to keep her needs and desires in mind and sometimes forgo my desire to express myself as Alice.

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Originally Posted by DaphneGrey

Some of the responses concerning women and their reaction to thier partners crossdressing have been mean, others are just silly.

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I know where you're coming from, Daphne, but what do you mean by 'mean?' Mean in that they were astonished and their worldview rocked, and sometimes wrecked? That to them, it isn't "just clothes" but something much more fundamental? That the man they married, that they dreamt about and grew up knowing exactly what he would be like, isn't like that at all?

And what do you mean by silly? She thinks it is silly that her husband was hiding something so huge from her, and she now wonders what else he's hiding? Silly in that she only knows of "trannys" what she has seen from the world - that they're all promiscuous drag queens who want to change their sex, steal someone's boyfriend and go on Jerry Springer?

I hope that we never make light of just what we do to the majority of women in our lives when we decide to say, "You know, dear, I'd like to start dressing in women's clothes and go out and do stuff." Mean and silly are understatements at times for the reactions we do receive. Is there compassion, acceptance, and even participation from some? Sure, though unfortunately rare.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

Unfortunately, I kind of feel this is what is happening lately in my relationship.

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Oh, Sara! I am so sorry!

Kathi

There is some truth here. But a lot is to be said about bringing the truth out about cd to your so. I think many would find the thought of their so opening up to them to be sensitive, caring, and most of all, it shows a great deal of loyalty. Honesty is loyalty. The big thing is not to go into it going "I am going to do this. And this. And this," with a list of things and not budge. I am compromising, and it is working wonders! My wife doesn't want me out in public. Fine. Doesn't want the makeup....fine again. Then, that's all I had to really agree too, and I gotta say, right now things are better than they ever have been between us.

"Women do not sign up for this!"

I love this quote since it shows up so many times on this forum.

Nobody signs up for a lot of stuff that might have been a deal breaker if they could have known about it before hand but sometimes life deals you lemons and in the case of you and your SO you made lemonade.

I am happy for you and the others who have SO's who are loving enough, caring enough, committed enough and understanding enough to want to save the relationship and work through the initial shock and awe of the coming out or discovery. Especially sicne women are attracted to men.

That gets back to Pyhtos' suggestion that clothes worn once in a while unmake the man. You are who you are no matter what clothes you put on and take off.

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Originally Posted by DaphneGrey

Some women, indeed most women are just not attracted crossdressers\TGs.

Heterosexual women are attracted to men! Is it really some big mystery? They are not internalizing homophobia! They are not closed minded! They are attracted to men!

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OK part of that has been covered many many times here. But you and unfortunately many others seem to make this a mutually exclusive thing. It isn't that they are not attracted to crossdressers, they are not attracted to wheat they perceive crossdressing is. Let's start with a given. Most the TG's on this board are male, with male anatomy that they have become quite attached to and they enjoy having and they are never have any intention to ever ever lose. We can agree on that? So that said, many crossdressers are "men". The majority here don't dress daily or even weekly. so they present the majority of time as...men. They present to future mates as...men. So they are basically, men.
Then when they put on a dress they, in their minds, become female, or a parody of what they think females should be. Yes I said parody because how many threads tell you how a woman acts?

Now, let's get to the statement

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Women do not sign up for this!

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And that is because most here don't give them the chance early on to read the contract! Failure to disclose is not the "buyers" problem but the "sellers. There would be a lot more women who accept CD's if they were given a chance before being blindsided after they had built a relationship. Think from their perspective. They thought everything was one way and then their husband tells them that it was all an illusion. Yes, at this time there would be many women who would opt out if told before the marriage, but there would be many who would try and make it work too. Honesty before hand. This is no different than if you told her you have millions of dollars and a chalet in France then after the wedding tell her you are bankrupt and live in a box.

When we become honest with ourselves and those around us you will see an increase in accepting women. But as long as we lie, not only to our prospective mates but to ourselves (when we think we can hide it or that it is just a phase or that we are bad people), then it will be hard to convince anyone that we are just like everyone else.

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Some of the responses concerning women and thier reaction to thier partners crossdressing have been mean, others are just silly.

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Welcome to the human race, especially today's humans where everything is someone else's fault. Selfish, deceitful, mean. And sometimes those are the redeeming features. "We" are selfish. I will say that the majority here are selfish. Gimmee Gimmeee Gimmeee. Especially when it comes to how they tell their spouse. "I want you to take this, accept it, love it, embrace it. I will do my thing without regard to your feelings on the subject." then they cry when this proposition is read as "My way or the highway babe". :doh:

So most women are not attracted to crossdressers? They would be just as attracted to the person who crossdresses if that person showed the character they were looking for in a mate. Honesty, loyalty, kindness, compassion, work ethic, the ability to be a good parent. You are attracted to the shell to start with and you get to know the contents later. But it isn't the body they should be looking at, that will fade with time. That is how young people choose mates, they don't look at the long term. Especially men, and that is why disillusionment sets in ( the seven year itch so to speak). As they say beauty fades....

You are thinking like a man and not like a woman , most women have this capability of looking beyond some things in a person men do not have this capability very often and you should give them more credit for this as they hold the key as to how much cross dressing will be accepted in the future and it really makes no difference whether they are heterosexual or not but they do have a price to pay of this willingness to learn and that is they do not like lies or deceit.

Okay, I'm going out on a limb with this as there may be some misunderstanding on what the OP was about. Daphne will correct me if I'm wrong...

As much as the replies are true in their own way, I believe what Daphne is trying to say if this statement is read as is:

Some of the responses concerning women and thier reaction to thier partners crossdressing have been mean, others are just silly. (partial qoute from Daphne)

I'm viewing this as how one reacts to 'their SO/wife's response' after they come out or its discovered that dressing is part of the relationship now. Whether its taken as a from of deciet or just plain not what they are attracted to. The response from the cd/ts, etc is what the OP is speaking of..

Its like everyone around us is suppose to be okay with it all..

Its almost as silly when a husband gets upset when a wife reacts to discovering an affair has occured (just using this as an example..k?) Should the husband get angry or be surprised that the wife kicks him out, cusses up a storm, tells the family, etc..etc..??????? NO!

So why does one get upset when an SO/wife/friend/employer makes a discovery, in whatever manner, about one's dressing and reacts negatively?

This is not kumbyah land, we are different people with different understandings and so different reactions.

I do hope I'm right about the OP, if not...then I'll go start a thread to discuss that, as I been finding it as a surprised reaction from some (not all) members here.

Marissa

p.s. my pizza burned :(

My situation is like Karren's, but with a lovely little twist:

My wife is fine with a girlfriend, as long as she gets to have her man when she wants him! We keep my genders very separate and so far it very much works!

tina

Sorry Daphne,

I belive you are only partialy correct. It really depends on the person. For people who were born in the following age groups.

1950's and before Women see crossdressing as a dealbreaker. Men mostly see it as moraly wrong . TG's are shamefull and closeted.
1960 to 1970's Women are 'shocked' to find out, but may find a workable medium. Men see it as 'gay' TG's are discovering themselves and seeking support while semi closeted.
1980's Women are surprised, and may be tolerent and even supportive. Men see it as 'comical' TG's are more open and more likely to tell others.
1990's and on Women most likely know of, have a friend or be in shchool with a TG person, and can be very accepting. Men try to laugh, but are just as likely to take it or leave it, and would even befriend a TG person. TG's dress in public tell friends and family.

Now of course this depends on other factors like geographic location etc.

Any thoughts ?

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Originally Posted by DaphneGrey

I just wanted post this because it seems to me that ther are a quit a few on this forum, who refuse to understand that Some women, indeed most women are just not attracted crossdressers\TGs.

I realize some are and thats great. I also recognize that others although they dont like this part of their husbands or boyfriends life try to be supportive.

Heterosexual women are attracted to men! Is it really some big mystery? They are not internalizing homophobia! They are not closed minded! They are attracted to men!

I also just wanted to say I was fully prepared to have my marriage end when I came out. Thankfully it didn't I would have been heartbroken and devestated. But I recognized the fact that this was a dealbreaker and told her so. Not only that but the lying and betrayal as well. Women do not sign up for this!


Some of the responses concerning women and thier reaction to thier partners crossdressing have been mean, others are just silly.

I won't call anybody out if you haven't read the threads they are not hard to find.

But I just want to honestly say that it makes me really sad:

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I have always erred on the side of prudence, in keeping myself well-distanced from marriage. It just did not seem like a good idea at any particular time of my life.

Through the decades, though, most women ignored me, when I was very conventionally dressed.

Only after I was in my fifties, and had begun my unconventional dressing phase, did the women begin to take notice, and to seek me out.

Most women like the normal and ordinary among men. Most women, that is, but hardly all of them.

Quite frequently I meet women who are attracted by by my nouveau style, and they are often very generous with their compliments about my appearance.

Women are not a monolithic block, and they have their individual tastes and preferences, just like men do.

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Originally Posted by Kathi Lake

I know where you're coming from, Daphne, but what do you mean by 'mean?' Mean in that they were astonished and their worldview rocked, and sometimes wrecked? That to them, it isn't "just clothes" but something much more fundamental? That the man they married, that they dreamt about and grew up knowing exactly what he would be like, isn't like that at all?

And what do you mean by silly? She thinks it is silly that her husband was hiding something so huge from her, and she now wonders what else he's hiding? Silly in that she only knows of "trannys" what she has seen from the world - that they're all promiscuous drag queens who want to change their sex, steal someone's boyfriend and go on Jerry Springer?

I hope that we never make light of just what we do to the majority of women in our lives when we decide to say, "You know, dear, I'd like to start dressing in women's clothes and go out and do stuff." Mean and silly are understatements at times for the reactions we do receive. Is there compassion, acceptance, and even participation from some? Sure, though unfortunately rare.

Oh, Sara! I am so sorry!

Kathi

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Kathi I mean CDs are writing mean posts about SOs And CDs posts as to why they act the way the do are silly. Thats why I opened the thread. I have never once made light of what SOs go through, in fact I am very vocal in my support of them and their struggles with these issues. My point was to say that I understand if they can't deal with it and decide to leave.

Don't get me wrong I don't want good marriages to end over this issue or any other for that matter. I just happen to believe that if they decide to leave over this, they should be able to. I actually agree with you one hundred percent. I will go back and edit my OP to make it a bit more clear.

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Originally Posted by Marissa

Okay, I'm going out on a limb with this as there may be some misunderstanding on what the OP was about. Daphne will correct me if I'm wrong...

As much as the replies are true in their own way, I believe what Daphne is trying to say if this statement is read as is:

Some of the responses concerning women and thier reaction to thier partners crossdressing have been mean, others are just silly. (partial qoute from Daphne)

I'm viewing this as how one reacts to 'their SO/wife's response' after they come out or its discovered that dressing is part of the relationship now. Whether its taken as a from of deciet or just plain not what they are attracted to. The response from the cd/ts, etc is what the OP is speaking of..

Its like everyone around us is suppose to be okay with it all..

Its almost as silly when a husband gets upset when a wife reacts to discovering an affair has occured (just using this as an example..k?) Should the husband get angry or be surprised that the wife kicks him out, cusses up a storm, tells the family, etc..etc..??????? NO!

So why does one get upset when an SO/wife/friend/employer makes a discovery, in whatever manner, about one's dressing and reacts negatively?

This is not kumbyah land, we are different people with different understandings and so different reactions.

I do hope I'm right about the OP, if not...then I'll go start a thread to discuss that, as I been finding it as a surprised reaction from some (not all) members here.

Marissa

p.s. my pizza burned :(

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Right on!

Daphne, I will say again that you were phenomenally lucky in how your wife reacted. Obviously she could have left you over the "dealbreaker," but what if she had done neither? What if she told you she did not like it and did not want to ever see it or hear about it again? You came out to her for a reason, you were finding the closet very constrictive or you were tired of hiding, or some other reason I missing.

If she said "no way, that's not what I signed up for," and left you would have been sad and heartbroken, but eventually you would have moved on. You would have been more open and honest with the next woman.

You got truly lucky and she accepted you for who you are.

Now what about option #3. This is essentially no acceptance, no rejection, no communication, nothing, try to go on as if the knowledge were never shared. I will tell you that option #3 is the worst of all possible outcomes since it destroys your confidence, self-esteem, and any hope of openness in your relationship. I would argue that it makes the the closet lonelier and more constrictive than before the knowledge was out there, and happiness to feel out of reach for all time.

Count your lucky stars and make sure you do not develop a beer belly, love handles or other unattractive things that a woman might not have signed on for:)

Happy, there are a million what ifs in this and often the what ifs are far worse than what happens. Who can blame a spouse for your option 3 when essentially you have hidden and sneaked around for years? And the TG lives in fear of your option 3. Why? Because they have, in their mind, made it the only option long before the spouse even gets to know. This is the reason they don't tell the potential spouse to start with...because they have already made the conclusion of how it is going to end in their minds. It isn't clairvoyance, it is exactly how they would react if their spouse came to them with this kind of revelation after years of marriage. But the options are less severe earlier on, there is less equity in the relationship, less riding on it.

It is really hard to make a good comparison to what is going on without venturing into the bad things that happen to marriages, affairs, addictions, abuses. But being a TG is not a bad thing, it is a misunderstood thing. We help make it bad by adding bad things to it like affairs, addictions and abuses along with lying and hiding. So who can blame the spouse?

Face it things change in life and many things we cannot control. You mention physical attributes. No one stays the way they were at the the time of marriage. There is a reason we get worse eyesight as we age, that way we can still see the person we love the way we want to see them. The external person changes. As of now we can't stop that and that is why letting your spouse know your internal person from the start is the best policy. If a person "signs on" ofr the other person to never age or change...they must be living in a land far far away.

I don't usually involve myself in this type of thread since I don't have any of these issues in my marriage. But, I don't see why it's so difficult. When Tammy Wynette got tired of standing by her man she got a D-I-V-O-R-C-E. It's just that simple. Most marriages end in divorce so the odds of success are not good to begin with. If a major problem arises, the odds of success go way down. So why fight it? The minute any sort of issue comes up, just leave and file for divorce. And the sooner you do this the better off everyone will be. You don't even need any excuse like "irreconsilable differences." There is no such thing. All differences are reconsilable if both parties are willing. But why bother? It's usually so much easier to just start over with someone else. Love? Don't make me puke. You don't have to be married to someone to love them. I still love my first wife on some level, I mean I care about her welfare and I want her to be happy, but I don't have to put up with her crap anymore. YAY! In fact, I think we love and respect each other now more than at any time while we were married. The divorce was her idea and I fought it all the way, but I was wrong. Thanks Honey!

Divorce usually works out better than marriage. You don't see too many people getting back together after a divorce. I know it happens but those usually end up in divorce all over again. I know the party line here is communicate, communicate, communicate and then go see a therapist and especially a therapist that specializes in gender issues. I say balderdash! Therapists are just a bunch of parasites in my experience and have made no difference in divorce rates. Communication is usually one of the problems with marriages. Most marriages would last longer if people would keep their feelings to themselves and suffer silently. But, what's the point of suffering when divorces are redily available. The point shouldn't be to see how long you can make a marriage last but to make it last just until the going gets rough. After you've suffered through a bad marriage for a while there is just too much damage to repair and it's a lot easier to start over. Sooner or later, like Grounhogs Day, you'll get it right.

Let's say that you're one of those CDs that kept your little secret from your wife since before your marriage and now she's found out. If she doesn't jump for joy at the disclosure, prepare to leave. Apparently this is one of those mistakes that is extremely difficult to recover from. So, OK, you blew it. Are you going to stay and hear what a liar and deciever you are every day for the rest of your life? I advise no! Just say you're sorry and pack your bags and run, Run, RUN! for the nearest exit. She'll thank you later. Now, let's say you're the GG in this relationship. Hey, you didn't sign up for this so get out while you can. Your he-man husband has turned out to be a panty wearing sissy! There is no reason for you to try to accept this. Get out now because it's only going to get worse. Every minute you stay in this relationship you are denying youself the type of male companionship you deserve and thought you had.

Actually, when people say they didn't sign up for whatever in a marriage, I disagree. When you get married the agreement is pretty much open ended. You are really signing up for anything and everything unless you have some kind of prenuptial contract. But, fortunatly, the agreement can be canceled by either party at any time for any reason. So don't waste a lot of time and heartache whining about and trying to change your spouse - change spouses instead. My wife and I have both changed greatly in the 16 years we've been together and with each change we ask ourselves one simple question, "If this is the way it's going to be, do I still want to be here?" So far the answer has been "yes."

I've always found that women are fascinated by a man who cross dresses - as long as it aint her man that's doing it!

All right, to give the OP the serious consideration it deserves, I think that I'd have to agree for the most part. Pretty much by definition, a heterosexual woman is probably not going to be thrilled at the prospect of dating or marrying one of us. As with all things, I'm sure that there are exceptions . . .
Another point the OP made, and I think the main point, is that it is unreasonable for us (the TG's) to get upset and pissed off about it when a heterosexual woman doesn't like it or wont tolerate it. Again, I'd have to agree. It is a wonderful thing when one of us comes by a woman that will tolerate or accept it as part of our relationship, but it IS totally unreasonable for us to expect or demand it, or get indignant if she wont. We are human and have every right to be disappointed if a woman will not accept this part of us, but I really don't think we have the right to get mad at her or berate her for it.
I've been married over 23 years now and told her right at the start. Even for that, I don't think my wife would be unreasonable if she told me "Look, I just can't take this and don't want it." Would I be devastated, upset, and hurt - yes. Would I be angry at her - no. I have no more right to be angry at her for being who and what she is, than she has to be angry at me for who and what I am.

Usually the problem is that when the CD first gets married, they are either in denial about their dressing or think that it isn't as important as it later becomes and they can do without it. So they don't tell their prospective mates. By the time the urge to dress rears it lovely head and becomes one of our strongest urges, its years into the marraige and telling her is all that much harder. And as is said above, they may not mind men who are cds, may even be fascinated by them, but don't want to be married to one. so I guess the bottom line is if you tell your spouse be perpared for the fact that it may be a dealbreaker

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Originally Posted by DaphneGrey

Heterosexual women are attracted to men! Is it really some big mystery? They are not internalizing homophobia! They are not closed minded! They are attracted to men!

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[SIZE="2"]Yes, women who are attracted to men tend to be heterosexual! :doh:

Since MtF crossdressers are placed, for convenience, alongside homosexuals, is it any wonder that hetero females have a problem with the idea of crossdressing? Explaining yourself gets tiresome after a while, and few have the patience, compassion, or understanding to accept such a situation…[/SIZE]

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Women do not sign up for this!

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[SIZE="2"]If you happen to be married, I think there’s something called “vows,” and the words love, honor, and cherish therein may be equivalent to a signature, if that's how you worded it…[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Pythos

Quote Originally Posted by DaphneGrey View Post
Heterosexual women are attracted to men! Is it really some big mystery? They are not internalizing homophobia! They are not closed minded! They are attracted to men!

Hmmm, generalizing here. I am in the Japenese visual Kei scene, and the Goth scene, and I KNOW this statement is patently untrue. There are hetero sexual women that like their men to appear feminine, and still be men. ( they are extremely rare, but I long to find one). This is the big mistake many here make. They are also falling into the trap of the thought process, "If the man puts on women's clothing and looks like a woman, then he must want to be a woman" This is exactly the same kind of thinking men had when women started to wear pants. This kinda of thought process is prevelant in many religions that forbid women from wearing pants.

It simply is not true in all cases. I have said many times, if it was not for the limitations imposed on men when it came to syle I would most likely never gotten into the full fem look. I would have just worn what I want, without changing my body shape with tucking, and breastforms. I am just me when I am in my clothing, I don't ACT feminine. I may move more feminine though...okay so?

By the way Shaved legs, not inharently feminine, it was started by the Roman Soldiers. Long hair, um...tell a scottman, or Viking, or Royal knight of old, his hair is too long. LOL

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How very true Pythos! I understand exactly what you are saying and you are very correct. I just want to point out that as you have mentioned many times a man dressed in feminine attire who is still presenting male, like yourself is not at all the same thing as a MTF crossdresser or TG, or another woman. SO I think you might have miss understood what I was trying to say.

I appreciate your point of view and totally support fashion freedom as you describe it. Back in the 80s when I was in the metal scene it was hard to get a girl to notice me if I wasn't wearing makeup or had my hair teased to within an inch of its life. I wasn't Daphne back then so the women I dated took me as is, A guy who wears makeup and has long hair etc...

"Heterosexual Women are Attracted to men" was my statement. It is not in anyway untrue and quite frankly not even a generalization.

Indeed there are many women who like men who push gender lines and remain men.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

[SIZE="2"]If you happen to be married, I think there’s something called “vows,” and the words love, honor, and cherish therein may be equivalent to a signature, if that's how you worded it…[/SIZE]

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Usually those vows are exchanged between a man and a woman though - and in good faith that your future husband/wife doesn't have some major secret you know nothing about.

I have a lot of respect for any woman who decides to stay and work things out with her crossdressing partner. I'm not sure I could do the same if I were married to a woman who wanted to get a beard, male parts and real male clothing, especially not if it's not yet certain whether this might actually become permanent.

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Originally Posted by Pythos

Quote Originally Posted by DaphneGrey "Heterosexual women are attracted to men! Is it really some big mystery? They are not internalizing homophobia! They are not closed minded! They are attracted to men!"

Hmmm, generalizing here. I am in the Japenese visual Kei scene, and the Goth scene, and I KNOW this statement is patently untrue. There are hetero sexual women that like their men to appear feminine, and still be men. ( they are extremely rare, but I long to find one).

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OK, I hopped on board in support of this comment. In looking back, yes, there are exceptions to pretty much any statement or scenario. But really, I think it's fair to say that 95% (give or take your percentage, I'm simply making a point) of women who consider themselves to be heterosexual are attracted to what is considered to be the traditional male. This includes an attraction to men who display feminine features (think the Orlando Bloom type) and/or have a more feminine manner about them emotionally. Some women are attracted to the man's man, more rugged in appearance. Regardless, these are men they are attracted to and putting any of them in feminine clothing could easily be a deal-breaker. The scenes you identfy are outliers when compared to the general population.

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Originally Posted by Pythos

By the way Shaved legs, not inharently feminine, it was started by the Roman Soldiers. Long hair, um...tell a scottman, or Viking, or Royal knight of old, his hair is too long. LOL

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Well there aren't too many Roman soldiers, traditional Scots, Vikings or knights where I work (or anywhere else in my daily travels) so my daily presentation is in fact an outlier as well, something not demonstrated by most traditional males out there. And if a woman is attracted to a traditional male image, let's just say this woman is my wife, then it stands to reason that crossing these lines creates issues, simple as that. I do not fault her for feeling this way, it's simply what she is attracted to.

As of 4pm yesterday Texas, US time, Daphne validated that my post was right on track as to what she was asking...Kimberly came on later and further validated and commented on the OP. We have discussed a lot as to why an SO does not always accept, etc, but that is not what the question is asking..and I would really like to know the answers or reasons:

Why does a cd/ts react in a mean or silly manner when the SO (or someone important to them) makes the discovery and does not accept it?????

I have seen the posts as have many of you..so why? Again, we are not talking about the reaction of the SO, its the reaction of the cd/ts.

Marissa

Daphne, thanks for clearing your original post up. At first, it seemed that you were saying our spouses' reactions to our dressing were mean or silly. That's what caught me off-guard. Now I understand and agree much more with what you've written.

:)

Kathi