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I just want to put out there the old mystery that has bothered all of us at one time or another and see what kind of response I get.
Why is it that women can go around and dress in mens clothes but if a man is seen in a dress, skirt, or a nice shirt he must be gay. It is true when I dress up I wear a bra and panties with my fake breast and ass and try to look as feminine as possible. But with all the equal rights and BS why do we still need to hide or be ridiculed.
Because we're not wearing men's clothes. We're wearing women's clothes. Personally, I wear a size 8 tall. I don't think that men's clothes are sized like that.
Maybe you're comparing current women's styles to the styles that women wore in the 1950s?
Edit - Men can redefine their style too, if they want to. In fact, I saw a skirt designed for men on Zappos a few weeks ago for $75 but it is no longer available. It was skirt designed for mountaineering. There are more man-skirts featured here, just click on the arrow for all seven slides:
http://www.refinery29.com/men-in-ski...page=1#slide-1
These men don't look gay to me at all. :)
Well, the short answer is that there is a double standard in play.
Women have become more androgenous as they began to enter the workforce in more non-traditional roles. To counter the stigma of women in the "male" work roles they started dressing more maculine. This competition with men became the basis for their masculine attire.
Another reason, as I see it, men have often thought of women wearing their shirts as sexy.
But it still boils down to a double standerd.
Since men have been the competitive model that women emulate it has become acceptable for women to cross to male. But, since we men are the emulation model there is no basis there for men crossing to female as we are not competing in a women's world and since so much is made about image as a contributor to success there is therefore a stigma about men reversing the roles by dressing feminie. Guys just aren't supposed to act feminine. It's all about macho. Even the Villiage People (flamboyantly gay) singing about being a "Macho man" ;) or as I like to sing along say Nacho man. hehehehe
BTW I think it is a lot of malarchy. But I still shy away from presenting female in public. Ah well!
If ya think I am full of _____ you may be right. The above is just my humble opine.
Cheers
First, you assume it has bothered all of us at one time or another. It has never bothered me. In general, men are thought to be big, strong and tough, while women are thought to be pretty, gentle, and physically weaker. So when a man wants to look pretty or sexy, like a woman, it is assumed he is gay and weak as a man. It is generally accepted for a woman to want to be stronger and her manner of dress does not sound alarms as to her sexuality. Then back to sexuality, as much as being gay is more accepted today then in recent decades, it is still more taboo for a man to be bi or gay then it is for a woman. So even if a woman dressed in men's clothes is assumed to be gay or bi, it is not frowned upon as much as a man being bi or gay. Especially by other men. For this and other reasons, it is not generally accepted for a man to desire looking sexy or pretty in a dress or skirt. It offends the macho image most have when thinking of what a man is. It offends no one when a woman wears clothes designed for the opposite sex since there is usually no sexual connotation to her dressing while it is associated with men dressing as the so called weaker sex. usually when a man wears women's wear in public, he is also presenting as a woman complete with wig, make up, shaved body, perfume and hose. While a woman wearing anything designed for a man is not presenting as a man unless she is TS wanting to be a male. Beyond that, it simply is what it is. I am not complaining. I understand the reasons better then I can express them here and personally would not want to see it changed.
As Renie says, we are wearing women's clothes.
If some of my acquaintences see a woman with a short haircut male shirt shoes and trousers, she is immediately tagged a lezzie.
I mean no offense to the lesbian population at all but this is a redneck perception.
So women are not free to just dress up an go out and present in male clothing, they get read as well, sometimes more unkindly.
Looking attractive and wearing male clothing can help them get away with it.
Working as a store woman in a factory a girl in a frilly blouse short skirt and heels would be open to ridicule so she dresses appropriately.
Working as a store man in a factory a man in a frilly blouse short skirt and heels would be open to ridicule so he dresses appropriately ALSO!
I am biased against militant people who want to just stand out and be exhibishionists just to make a point.
I do not understand it.
Until the broader population understands cross dressers we will just have to be more tactful.
I have yet to see women wearing mens clothing. Women wear clothing designed for women. Their pants are cut different at the waist, hips, and crotch and the lengths are different. Tops are darted in many cases, etc. Who said women must dress in dresses and high heels? Not women, particularly when society decided they needed two cars, a cottage, crap for the kids, etc., and they needed it now so off to work went mommy. Step back in time when 'large' was sexy and the 'in' thing for women? If you want to blame someone because men do not wear styles that resemble womens clothing, blame men.
"It is true when I dress up I wear a bra and panties with my fake breast and ass and try to look as feminine as possible. But with all the equal rights and BS why do we still need to hide or be ridiculed."
you know, women actually wear bras for a reason. They also don't generally stuff their underwear to simulate a male bulge nor do they (usually) try to minimize their butt.
Like I said earlier, it is what it is. We are not going to change people's opinions or expect them to accept what many find as strange, weird, sick, or otherwise socially unacceptable. It's like trying to get a straight person to turn gay, or a gay person to turn straight. Blunty, it ain't happenin' Accept it and deal with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by audreyinalbany
Basically, it's just the mindset of "society". It's also a propriety thing. If a woman wears "men's clothes", it's considered stylish. If a man wears "women's clothes" it's considered abnormal. You can't fight "city hall" but you can ignore them if you choose to. :)
Hell Just Do it ,,I do,,,,, obviously ya dont want to wear a dress out all the time ,,But you can compromise an wear something just a little risky . LOL.. Start out with something simple like shorts or capris ,, An just go from there ? You can get away with alot more than you think ,, Alot of GGs cant pull off heels or platforms ,,Just look around an yull see , Just wear what they wear ,,Ill bet no one says a word !
But they do have things to increase the breast push up bras wonder bras and even shape ups. Then they even have but enhancers to make their butt look better. Even with a GG your not even sure of what you are getting.
So, you want to look as feminine as possible, but not be ridiculed?
No problem. I do it often, although the handlebar mustache puts a limit on how feminine I can look. No one has ever ridiculed me, in shops, restaurants, art galleries, subway, wherever, not once. A lot of smiles, & a few compliments. I did hear "what the f***?" behind me on a sidewalk in Boston once, but I don't know it was directed at me. And once in Houston a pick-up truck at a stop sign nudged me as U crossed in front of it. Maybe just driver carelessness.
Some gay men hoped I was gay, but were easily dissuaded.
I have been crossdressing for over 60 years. When I was old enough to use makeup I started going out in public as Stephanie! Then when I got married, my late wife did my makeup and really did make me look feminine. I could pass quite easily!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie
When she passed away 7 years ago, I decided to try going out dressed enfemme but looking like the man that I am! The only comments that I have heard are questions as to where I bought the dress, skirt, or top that I am wearing! As long as you are decently covered, most people don't care what you are wearing!! If you do go for show. then yes you are going to hear comments, some of which will not be good! But that is your own fault!!
As has been said, most women who dress in what seems to be mens clothing are usually wearing man styled clothing made for a woman!! And I doubt that many women wear mens underwear!! I am a man, but I wear panties and a bra almost every day because I am a crossdresser!
I am a GG and here might be another spin on this......I love to wear mens clothes ! Except for boxers and BVDS. I love the way mens shirts feel and when I was younger I wore guys Jeans...mens shoes are so comfortable.Quote:
Originally Posted by sissystephanie
So many guys see a woman in a guys dress shirts and nothing else and say that there is nothing sexier.....
In Scotland guys wear Kilts.. nobody says anything to that. But what is a kilt other than a mens skirt?!
As to high heels ...they are made to make your legs and butt look great....Why wouldn't anyone not want to wear them if they make you look and feel great. After all that is what they are made for.
If a woman wearing guys clothes is a turn on why not the opposite? Perhaps I'm a horndog ... but skirts = one thing easy access....ooops maybe TMI...but its realistic. Makes one wonder what is underneath. Lol
I also may be Jaded and very open minded ...I am a hairdresser and there isn't much I haven't seen.
What it all boils down to ... If it feels good and doesnt harm anyone DO IT ! The Hell with what anyone thinks.
I've had a theory on this for some time now.
Feminism in america did not equate the feminine and the masculine. It allowed females to move from their lower feminine status to the higher masculine status.
The masculine expression is still considered the better, higher expression and the feminine the lesser, lower expression. Think about it. If a male wears a dress, he is less than a man, but if a female stands up for her self, 'good for her, she grew a pair'.
We need to equate the feminine and masculine as equally important expressions of humanity.
Personal opinion. I've been wrong before...
Never bothered me.... ever....Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda_P
Only thing that bothers me is....... why is this subject continuously brought up here? At least once a week!! Like google,... the "search" button here is your friend.
You may be an old hand here, others are not, no topic is totally covered and unless it has been discussed recently, then any topic, within the rules is validQuote:
Originally Posted by Heather Daniels
Because we are different from the "normal society". Most men would rather be punched then wear panties. We (the cross dressing community) are not really understood by ourselves. When I'm asked why I dress I can't give a reason why....only that I must. That seemed to be the prevalent answer when that thread is put forward.
Like others traversing from the "norm", we as CD's, are simply wired differently. It's part of our gene makeup.
Though, I'm past the point of trying to figure out what came first, "the chicken or the egg."
Put simply, I am therefore I be.
And most women who protest to the "female clothes, male clothes" debate, know damn well it's a double standard too. However turn the tables to a topic not fair in their eyes and watch the feathers fly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Annette Todd
If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jillleanne
Hmm... you must not be in the US. I see women in men's clothing all he time. Especially shirts and jeans. Sometimes even shoes and boots. There was a real fashion thing a few years ago where girls wore men's boxer shorts in public after sewing the fly shut. The do wear men's clothes, what guy has not seen the photo of a woman in a man's shirt and nothing else? The difference? They don't worry about what you think.
I missed the memo. I am gay?Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda_P
One reason is ...look in the mirror. The majority of the guys who think women care at all have never asked a woman. My wife always had a good answer for this "Go ahead, I would not wear that if I didn't have to, but you go right ahead"
WHY?
Because very few women wear men's clothing in an attempt to try to fool others into thinking she is a man.
People generally, whether male or female, only enoy being tricked or duped by magicians.
The REAL question is WHO says anyone needs to hide?
Are there laws against crossdressing that I am not aware of?
Because you're too afraid to live your own life. It's as simple as that. You do NOT need to hide and you probably get ridiculed more than you know already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda_P
If you don't like the way the world is, then BE the change. I'm doing my part, what are you doing?
Thats right ,,Ya gotta get busy living or get busy hiding ,, Cuz aint no body gonna wear them clothes for ya ,,,Oh I will Sorry,,, But anyway dont wait around for someone to give you permision .. I man once told me its better to ask for forgivness than for permission . So when your out dressed an someone says ,,,HEY you got GIRL CLOTHES on ,,Just say ,,,Ohhhhh Sorry it was laundery Day !! An keep on shoping ,,,Hey it works for me,, Example,,, True Story;;;; Awhile back my Mother in Law asked me if I had on my wifes shoes ? I just looked at her an said Hell No ,,She wears like an 8 ,, An left it at that ! Just the other day a costumer ask me while I was at work if I had on my wifes pants,,Capris ,, Anyway I said hell no ya want her to kill me or what ? Ya see do what ya want dont give up your POWER ,,,, Thats yours ,, Just say something witty an keep moving ,,No need to explain nothing . Your not DR PHILQuote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
when a man dresses in women clothing he is attempting to present as a woman,fool people into thinking he is a female.
when a woman wears pants, and unisex clothing she is not trying to fool people into thinking she is a man. There in lies the difference, big difference.
This topic would have more crediblity if the MtF CD community would wear womans clothing sans the wigs, makeup, breastforms, and other accessories or the woman wearing "mens clothing" would put on fake beards, bind their breast and put a sock down their pants. But that isn't the case. No CDers are trying to look like a woman while a woman is still being her feminine self even though she may wear what is traditionally men's styles. It doesn't matter it the pants and shirt she wears was cut for a man or cut for a woman she is not trying to pass as a man.
There are very few woman who do try to look like men. They are know as Drag Kings and I was half surprised not to see a sister message board here for them. I would venture to say if you were to talk to FtM CDer they would tell you they have as much difficulty as us
I've seen plenty of guys wear capris but then again its acceptable in Asian culture(fashion wise) for the men to wear capris. Though its not often, its common enough that no one pokes fun at them or anything crazy. Look at the fashions in Japan and you will see what I'm saying. Its just that Americans have this stiff rigid pov that isn't as flexible. This whack ass double standard is annoying but its there until society as a whole doesn't see it strange for a guy to dress that way.
"when a man dresses in women clothing he is attempting to present as a woman,fool people into thinking he is a female.
when a woman wears pants, and unisex clothing she is not trying to fool people into thinking she is a man. There in lies the difference, big difference."
And I would do the same thin as women in this instance but there are no clothes that are "feminine" in the stores. Therefore, we are stuck getting women's clothes as the similar substitute. I know some are here to try to "pass" but I'm not exactly trying to "pass". I just want it to be acceptable for me to go out in public as is but the currently the culture in the U.S. doesn't readily accept that. There are clothes that are unisex but they are limited in styles.
The reason is because when a man dresses in women's clothing, most of the time he is attempting to pass as a woman. On the other hand when a woman dresses in men's clothing, in most cases she is not attempting to pass as as man. I wear women's clothing cosmetics, and other items but do not attempt to pass as a woman. Therefore I am very much like the woman the wears men's clothing without attempting to pass. I believe that society has an easier time accepting gender queer folks like myself because we don't attempt to pass as a woman. I am just a guy that wears women's clothing because I have a strong feminine component to my personality.
I was going to post this picture and start a new thread but this is as good a time as any to slip it in . Just imagine if this picture was showing a guy in a dress, with the caption modeled after women's clothing but cut for men!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Bzzzzzzzzzt. Wrong answer.
I cannot tell you how many restaurants I've been to where the waitress wears tuxedos and bow ties. It's pretty mainstream, and meant to be gender neutral.
Hasn't this topic been debated (and shot down) enough? Women don't wear men's clothes! Women wear women's pants, shirts and jackets. It's not even remotely close to what we do as crossdressers. Come on, let this argument die, please.
Sorry, bad example. You are referring to a "costume" not a person's own intent to crossdress.Quote:
Originally Posted by NathalieX66
I am having cookies and milk. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
the one wearing women's clothing is the fool them. there are very few here who will ever fool anyone. I don't believe the intent of most the members here is to pull a fast one but more that they like the look or the feel. Maybe they just feel better?Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDYO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenniferathome
OK, then we will just go with some women wear men's clothing on a daily basis. The shirts the UPS drivers wear (oh then it would be a costume since that is the required outfit for the drivers). the shirts the police officers and EMT's wear. How about he store clerks who wear a man's shirt? Cowgirls( pretending to be cowboys maybe. None of those are "costumes (they are not performing...they are working in an outfit)
And thus you negated your own argumentQuote:
Originally Posted by Jamie001
this will never be settled because everyone has their own reason. And why does it matter. They are clothes. Other than the fact that some stores decide to label them as men's women's whatever. No where is it written in stone that an article is destined and exclusive for a male or female (not even bras because some men NEED them). We are not play acting (some may be but most not) we are not trying to fool anyone. we are not trying to make women jealous. we are not making a statement because women have taken away our playground.
The fact is that someone somewhere decided that somethings were not the purvey of someone else. It is arbitrary, nothing more nothing less. Most articles of women's clothing are designed totally for looks and not function. Women dress when they need to suit the function of the job or hobby or whatever they are doing. As to makeup and wigs, why do they have to be exclusive to women? They don't. It is another arbitrary rule that when you are herding cattle is probably not practical. But those things are things taht are made for the wearer to feel good about themselves.
All this Women can but we can't is straight horse hockey. Women wear what they wear because they decided that they were not going to slaves to what some moron somewhere decided they should wear.
So now get over it, wear what you want, do what you like as long as it doesn't interfere with the ability of another person to live a happy life. Why can't "we" wear dresses? Because in general men don't have the cahones to do something that their pal and friends would call them on. In other words they are wimps.
now who wants a cookie?
You going to start cutting them checks when they lose their job because of what they were wearing? No? Then don't call them wimps tough guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
The females in my family who have worn men's clothing have not tried to pass themselves off as males. It has been like that for eons. Even if you point to the ornate men's attire of the aristocratic life of the 17th and 18th century, the men were not trying to pass themselves off as women.If I and others are going to argue it's for comfort, bright colors, the feel of fabric, why the heck do I like to wear a bra. I have nothing to pack into them. If I like the nylon fabric why don't I just wear men's nylon briefs with a fly? Why do I want to wear ladies' pink lacy panties? If Stephanie's twin brother tried to dress her in men's nylon panties and run around without a bra, she would rebel. It's the woman within and not a man wearing men's clothing.
Hi,
Have you forgoten the Flower power age in the 60's to 70's , women wore pants is the 1800's & before that.they had another name bloomers. women wore pants in the 2 nd world war why. were they trying to be men .or masculine ...no...they were conscriped or land girls thier clothes were designed cut made & sewn to fit the female body not a mans cut or shape,
You dont see women in mens shops buying men clothes for them selfs & wearing them down the road. iv yet to see from our membership of some 800 women do that.
The only ones i know of are a few hard core lesbain who are butch ,
Now if they . very few in mens clothes doing the gardning or painting or farm work. we have our own clothes for that. or don our overall's, im looking at getting some lovely pink overalls, i can i am a woman you know,........
Iv asked this ? before & no answers those here who are men will you wear our clothes & go down the streets malls shoping centres & the like with out breast forms no make up no wigs. just the clothes & shoes.no earings nothing other than just tops skirts or dress's .
Id say there are 4 i know of that do yet they are not...... TRYING...... to be women. oh & two i know with beards.
...noeleena...
tough guy?Quote:
Originally Posted by max
Let's see, Lori was indeed born a guy and she spends much of her life that way, but is she tough? Well, she's tough enough to live her own life rather than sulk in a closet about how unfair the world is.
Yeah I suppose you could call her a tough guy, but she would probably prefer to be called something different.
The fact is Max that big strong men who use the excuse that they will get fired if they come out to their friends, are not near as tough as they would have you believe. You want strength? Watch a 50 year old man transition. Now THAT'S a tough guy.
Clothes we wear were not decided by some arbitrary counsel long long ago. Their forms followed function unique to the sexes that wore them. Over time these forms would change in style but always dictated by what would be found most alluring to the opposite sex. Since we human beings are mammals and not birds it is not us the males who get to strut our feathers around like peacocks it is the women of our species who have to do the alluring.
It is perhaps because of this they got the more versatility in wardrobe. Consider them like the lucky *******s who have AB type blood. You know the type that can received blood donations from anyone else but can't give blood unless it's to another AB type person. All these women running around with their own clothes able to steal our clothes while we just can't seem to where their's.
Well it's been stated before but it needs to be stated again, women in men's clothes can still retain their femininity. While a man in women's clothes cannot retain his masculinity. If anyone thinks this statement is false, do as noeleena has suggested and just try walk around in women's clothing without makeup, wigs, breast forms, and other accessories. The goal of cross-dressing is to try to look as feminine as possible. This is the stark difference between male to female cross-dressing and women just wearing men's clothing.
I have read numerous times that about 10% of mens jeans are sold to women, and my lady friend recently bought a pairs of mens jeans because they "fit" better. Women's clothing is not quite the sew job that it used to be. A lot of blouses and tops are just tubes with arm holes. Or stretch stuff. Expensive clothing may be better tailored, but there is a lot of quick and dirty clothing on the market.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillleanne
"Why is it that women can go around and dress in mens clothes but if a man is seen in a dress, skirt, or a nice shirt he must be gay?"
It's because since time immemorial women have ruled the world & always will. And depending on the individual woman, where she may or may not have some tolerance in this regard, the vast majority of women nevertheless prefer men to be Men; There when she needs or wants him for companionship or intimacy, her lover not her rival.
It's evolutionary by origin. Comes with the territory. Now...because men, on a primal level are stronger than women & yet need women more than women need men, she'll do what she wants & always get her way. Simple as that. No use arguing or complaining. The rules are unalterable.
I assure you, TG or otherwise, us guys (girlz or whatever) are truly blind to the power a woman wields. For all intents & purposes we are controlled, 10 steps behind, clueless. It's true. I'm not complaining just stating a Fact.
But dont let that spoil your summer fun! Attachment 184602http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...isc/pencil.pnghttp://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...isc/pencil.png
Women wearing very casual clothes as the norm makes it easier for me to try to blend in 24/7. I wear the same things that they do to be comfortable. Mostly jeans and a short sleeved shirt. My wife and her friends mostly wear the same thing, jeans and a casual top.
But I wear my own long hair in a feminine hairstyle, layered at the salon. The GGs in my life wear shoulder length hair, similar to mine. But my Adams Apple is just a dead give away. But with all of us wearing jeans at a restaurant, farmers market, or horseback riding, I feel I blend in better compared to wearing dresses or formal clothing. .Especially from the back, my long hair draped over my shoulders looks as feminine as theirs.
The Adams Apple and veins in my forearms are a hint otherwise. Looking from the front, hearing the phrase addressed to me: “And what will you order, Sir?” Still masculine anyway to the agreement of the GGs there. But the casual clothes do not tell others that I insist I am a crossdresser. Just have long hair styled similarly. Wearing the same casual clothes.
When some women wear men's clothes, they are frequently given unflattering and undeserved names or titles. It's not just simply a double standard. Some people are narrow-minded, prejudiced, insecure assholes who sneer, snicker, stare and call ma man in female attire gay or women in male attire dykes. Who cares what assholes think?
To the OP.
Answer: because society is sexist. I'm talking both men & women.
People are idealistic, and it goes from there. That's the way it is.
I strongly feel that the tide is turning....but not without a few good battles along the way.
I was at a very crowded mainstream restaurant with lots of kids, in a floral dress last week, and I hardly got a look, and was treated great by the waitress. Of course, they kept trying to push frozen margheritas on me for obvious reasons.
Bottom line is.....you want your place in society? FIGHT FOR IT. :ap:....live it and find out for yourself.
Don't sit at home behind a computer, and complain.
H Amanda, Don't hold your breath waiting for that to change anytime soon.