Why we so scared to...

Before i start saying whats on my mind, let me say im not trying to ruffle anyones panties( of course some that i own already have cute ruffles in them) or put anyone down.

With that being said my question is why are a lot of us so scared or secretive about being cds? Like of course i understand the SO situation about them not accepting you or losing them to it. But im talking more like why are so many of us in the closet cds? I mean why cant we if we feel like it , put on our heels get all dolled up and go out whenever we please?! Why should we feel uneasy or scared to step out of our house. Even if your not passable , i mean if we enjoy doing something shouldnt we be able to do it. Especially since are girly side is part of who we are. Really whats the worst that could happen? We go out maybe get some weird looks, laughed at or snickered at. But why let that bother us. We are all adults we shouldnt let others stop us from dressing or enjoying what we do. What if when they laugh we just smile and have confidence and keep doing what we do not caring what sociwty thinksi bet they wouldnt laugh or stare anymore cus they know it wouldnt bother us and maybe we would be more accepted right? So in closing all im saying is maybe we should care less about what society thinks and lets all step out of are comfort zone. U never know you might enjoy it. For those of you that already do i give you credit and i know u inspire a lot of us.

But it's not only what we would go through. It's what our families would go through also. You have to think about all the teasing your kids will get. Not even going to think what my grandkids would think of me. What people would think of your parents even raising a boy that likes to wear dresses. Not to mention the neighbors living next to a pervert that likes girly things. What's he going to do to our kids. I am getting braver with my outings. But I'm 55 years old. My kids are grown and moved out. But when they come to visit me I just hope they call first.

On the surface you make a good point. However, and there are always however's, there is a lot more for some people to lose than just their reputation or self esteem. Consider those who could lose their position in the community, which may also affect their ability to earn an income if it effects their employment for those employed by others, or could cause a loss of customers if they are self employed. If one is not out to their spouse, well, they could lose all that as well as their children. Some fear the unknown and that is their decision as to how they confront it or not. I am sure there are a lot of other valid reasons that I am not thinking about right now. For those of us that have the courage and confidence to go out, I would rather think that we are the fortunate ones for being able escape the closet because we want and have no fear of going out, have nothing to lose, or we just don't give a damn if we lose something or not. In the meantime, I think we should be wishing all the rest the best of luck and respect their decisions whatever they are.

You do have some very good valid points. I didnt cover the famiky or kids in my post. Thank you for mentioning that. I do believe you are right about the kids and grandkids. I do have a son abd would not like him getting teased because of something i did. Then again how many children grow up in a gay environment where they have two moms or two dads. Maybe if we all went out more it would be more accepted and less weird? Again this was just on my mind so kinda thinking out loud. Im young and i know some of you thar have been around longer can probably give more reason as to why we are so secretive and stuff. I also dont think we are perverts. A pervert to me is a rapist, or pedophile and many other things not a crossdresser thats not trying to hurt anyone. In society these days what is exactly considered normal?

The stigma that is attached to CDing by people in society who do not understand is probably the main reason why crossdressers are afraid to go ahead and do as they please: as Amanda_P says, you also have to protect your loved ones from harsh, judgemental people.
I hope that One day ... in the future ... people will be accepted for who they are and will have the freedom that they deserve.

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Originally Posted by Cassandra86

...why are a lot of us so scared or secretive about being cds?

why cant we if we feel like it , put on our heels get all dolled up and go out whenever we please?!

maybe get some weird looks, laughed at or snickered at. But why let that bother us.

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We are HUMAN ... and humans have INSTINCTS that protected us and allowed us to survive all these years.

Examples:

We can't put "mind over matter" when our hand is on a hot stove... it burns, it hurts, we respond by moving it.

A female in an abusive relationship is "stucK" there by an instinct that makes her feel SAFER when in the
presence of DOMINANCE ... because a 100.000 years ago, a female with no dominant male - her offspring
probably would not have survived ( needed to be inherently strong in youth, stronger in adulthood to survive
and needed a food bearer to stay alive while young )

There is fear of HUMILIATION, which stems from the fact that not conforming to tribal status quo on rules
you could be cast out .. banished.. exiled ... from the support of peers. Years ago, this would have left us
vulnerable to animal predators, rival tribes, and made it almost impossible to hunt .. resulting in starvation and death.


Then there is the FEAR OF REJECTION, such like if turned down by a female you're asking out
... the world will end. That stems from the fact that if showed to ONE female to be inadequate in some way
your chances with any of the other female were shot, due to an instinct in female called "Preselection" which
makes the guy who has lots of females wanting to be with him, the most ideal mate. They can't help this,
especially when drunk. lol It's nature.

So ... the fear of humiliation, while some can put mind over matter ( and some just have no shame at all lol )
is REAL... and POWERFUL ... and it is there for a reason. If we are shunned, we are less able to survive.


This is why we can't "just do it" ... even in another city where nobody knows us ... though being away HELPS a lot!

Im also curious on the point that was made about not being out to your spouse, and this goes more to the ones that are married or been in a relationship for a longer time. Not coming out or telling them doesnt that hinder your relationship? Can a relationship really grow when its based on secrets? I know i would want to know if my wife had this whole other side to her i didnt know about even if it made us split up. Isnt honesty the key to a good relationship? If your SO doesnt accept you for who you are then are you really meant to be together? I took the risk on coming out to my SO and i felt a lot better when i did. Yes i am happy sge accepted it and not sure what wouldve happened if she didnt. Again im not trying to attack or put down anyone i have nothing but love for every single person on here no matter what stage your at in life. Cus i have learned so much from many of yoy!

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Originally Posted by Cassandra86

I mean why cant we if we feel like it , put on our heels get all dolled up and go out whenever we please?! Why should we feel uneasy or scared to step out of our house.

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There are two types of being out: to everyone you know, or to strangers only. Which "out" do you mean?

My SO goes out on a regular basis in the next town over. She is, therefore, out to strangers and also to some of our more liberal friends, but she is not out to her parents, my parents, her sibling, her nieces, her coworkers, her students, and some of our more conservative friends. She is also not out to her neighbors, since her neighbors know some of her coworkers. She does not go to the grocery store down her street, since she doesn't know who she'll run into. She does not want the people at work to know because she feels (and I agree) that her coworkers would cease to take her seriously, and many would have a good laugh at her expense behind her back. Advancement in her career might also be affected, and there is even the risk of losing a job. Some of her students might think it was cool, but others would be creeped out. My SO does not want her gender to be a distraction in her classroom. And last, my SO has no desire to transition and live full time, so there is no need to expect her parents who are in their 80s, to wrap their minds around this.

My SO does not have children. But if she did, she would not want her children's friends' parents to know, since this might cause the more squeamish parents to not allow their children to come for sleepovers. My SO also would not want her children to be teased at school over their father wearing dresses.

But, if my SO was a transsexual and was planning a full transition, there would be no choice other than coming out to everyone.

There are things about ourselves we choose to keep hidden from people that do not understand and accept.
What is the point in forcing your lifestyle or dressing preference on everyone?
I am out to close friends and wish to keep it that way.I don't feel the need to force my lifestyle on others.

Hi,

Not sure how long youv been around the trans community, for myself some 17 years, so iv seen many people both trans & dressers, And i know many. & iv answered this ? a few times , for many theres just to much at stack to loose & allso does distroys many lives & more so those who are close , & in many case's all over wearing clothes that are for women ,This of cause is mainly with in the western world, though of cause going back in our history , was very different,

This may change some or no one, depends on how one was brought up. As a Scot it would not have mattered what i wore, yes a skirt, = Kilt, to them who dont know, or High land wear, we have woren those for many 100's of years, in Eroupe our men wore dress's or skirts, was any thing ever said ...no...
The Renaissance group im with over 200 members half of them are men & are all wearing dress's skirts & the like, though none are trying to be other than they are, most are straping strong men no wimps there,

yet surprising some are really lovely, im pushing it to addmit that, had you knowing my background youd not hear a good or nice comment concerning ...men... any way's, this is not about that,

When you see our men dressed they do look , sorry wrong word, ...Pretty.... good.... youll get the idear,

One of the reasons men are accepted as dressed is they are not trying to be like us ( women ) that is where its different,

So can men do as my friends do, just dress, not try & be other than who they or you are, thats the ? .

My self i never dressed as dresser's do. though should i , i had no reason to other than when young by my Mom. or for a end of year church do a pantmime all dressed up for the part, in front of 80 people & my mom.

Any way womens clothes as such would not have been aproprate on a building site it was shorts a tee top. & boots, & even then had i worn womens clothes they would have been wrecked . even though i did do building as a woman & still do it was clothes that can or are womens just suitable for the job in hand,

Because of my difference , intersex, i do know what i could have lost family 16 of us, so im very aware what it can do to a family, & over some 19 years, trust me its not a walk in the park,
To wear others clothes, as in crossdressing, can humillate & make you look silly or what ever, being different you can be crushed, & i know what thats like,

as an aside i never wonted to be a woman let alone a man. so i see both sides of this issue,

...noeleena...

Well in my case, I worry about the neighbours finding out because I just don't want any hassle, I worry about friends finding out because I'd be afraid of losing them & I worry about my job because I need to make a living.
It's sad, but society in general is just not as accepting as we'd like it to be.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

There are two types of being out: to everyone you know, or to strangers only. Which "out" do you mean?

My SO goes out on a regular basis in the next town over. She is, therefore, out to strangers and also to some of our more liberal friends, but she is not out to her parents, my parents, her sibling, her nieces, her coworkers, her students, and some of our more conservative friends. She is also not out to her neighbors, since her neighbors know some of her coworkers. She does not go to the grocery store down her street, since she doesn't know who she'll run into. She does not want the people at work to know because she feels (and I agree) that her coworkers would cease to take her seriously, and many would have a good laugh at her expense behind her back. Advancement in her career might also be affected, and there is even the risk of losing a job. Some of her students might think it was cool, but others would be creeped out. My SO does not want her gender to be a distraction in her classroom. And last, my SO has no desire to transition and live full time, so there is no need to expect her parents who are in their 80s, to wrap their minds around this.

My SO does not have children. But if she did, she would not want her children's friends' parents to know, since this might cause the more squeamish parents to not allow their children to come for sleepovers. My SO also would not want her children to be teased at school over their father wearing dresses.

But, if my SO was a transsexual and was planning a full transition, there would be no choice other than coming out to everyone.

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That pretty much explains it perfectly.
For those of us whose eventual goal is not to transition, why put all our loved ones through the hurt. If I lived on my own, no friends no family then sure it would be great, who cares. But I care, I care about the people around me, and regardless if we like it or not, there is a stigma about crossdressing. I could probably take some humiliation and learn to ignore any laughing behind my back, but it would kill me to see my wife subjected to that. She has chosen to accept me as I am, why would I want to make it anymore harder for her than it already is?

Those are the reasons that personally hold me back or keep me grounded, not sure which is true :)

Hi Cassandra,

"What we do in in life resounds forever in eternity" - or something like that! :) From the film Gladiator I think!

We certainly make 'ripples' and those ripples can have lasting consequences. Yes we should move our agenda forward, and there will be beacons who can do this. At my age and stage of life I have too much to lose in terms of the people I would damage as well as the damage I would incur myself. So I choose to express 'Kaz' here and in limited form elsewhere - but I am not 'out' to the world. If I was ever 'outed' I would have to re-evaluate everything, but that is not my personal choice right now. I have too many personal inter-relationships to protect and nurture.

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Originally Posted by Cassandra86

Really whats the worst that could happen? We go out maybe get some weird looks, laughed at or snickered at.

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Pretty naive to think the worst that can happen is getting laughed at. Maybe in your world, but some of us live in the real one.

Hi Cassandra,
I would like to add something to your post, but unfortunately all has been said by this wonderful forum. Becky and Kaz have virtually taken the words right out of my mouth. I really cannot offer more than what they and everyone else on this forum have said. Thank you for your post.
Kind regards,
Di

Because it is still not recognized as a social norm,
I do keep it away from, relatives, neighbors, the local area where I live, except for commuting through the area and my male persona friends.
Get me into new areas and on holidays and Beverley "lives and loves life."
When away getting odd looks and being laughed at would only be a glitch.
That does not happen as I am able to dress sensibly and blend in.
My voice can be a give away but that is rare except during a long interactive conversation.

Sometimes it comes from the years of conditioning we all go through when growing up. We are taught more than our ABC's along the way. We are inducted into the "man" club. We are pushed to be competitive, aggressive, strong, and more than anything not to be different. Even as young as grade school the kids that had some kind of variation were put in a spotlight and ridiculed by the other kids, so we learn fast not to let something show that was not accepted as part of the group. We can logically decide that being different is ok and will not harm anything but the ingrained fear of the group knowing we are different is very strong. Many of us have secrets we never allow most people to know about because of this. As adults this kind of ridicule and ostrosization is less of an everyday thing but it is still in the mind of all of us and is very strong.

Is it fear or common sense? Suddenly being seen by everyone you know in drag would cause confrontation with a great deal of them. Now if I were young in this day and age coming out might not be such an ordeal. But many family, friends, clients and coworkers would be asking me why, and some would condemn the behavior. I have no desire to spend a great deal of time explaining or debating why I like to CD.

To sum it up, my desire to dress full time isn't strong enough to upset life long relationships.

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Originally Posted by Tracii G

There are things about ourselves we choose to keep hidden from people that do not understand and accept.
What is the point in forcing your lifestyle or dressing preference on everyone?
I am out to close friends and wish to keep it that way.I don't feel the need to force my lifestyle on others.

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Hi, Tracii! Sorry, but this is a point of view that I take exception to. You'll see it from time to time on this forum and elsewhere in the trans community, and it's a point of view I really wish we'd abandon--that is, this notion that if we live in such a way as to be happy, we're "forcing our lifestyle on others."

I myself have been out in my town for about six weeks now, living full-time as myself. I do my shopping, my other errands, etc., as myself in full view of the whole town, and everybody's been perfectly accepting. But how can we say I'm forcing my lifestyle on others? I would be forcing it on others if I were trying to make them live the same way I do. I'm trans, therefore they have to be trans, too. That's not what I'm doing. I'm doing my thing, and I leave it up to others to live the way they want to.

Note in Reine's post how she said her SO is reluctant to even go to the nearby grocery store for fear of the consequences. This is a serious infringement of one's rights. How many cispeople have to be afraid of doing something so simple and basic as going the grocery store?

Many people on this forum do have real reason to fear the consequences for themselves and their families if they were to come out. When we say that we're forcing our lifestyle on others, we're getting it backwards: they're the ones forcing their lifestyle on us.

And you will see cis trans-haters pretty much admitting it. They don't want to see transpeople, they don't even want to hear about us in the news, etc. What they want is for all of us to be tucked away permanently in the closet so that they don't have to know anything about us. And when they do hear about us, they complain about us "shoving our values down their throats".

We transpeople need to move away from this view that by being ourselves we're imposing on others. We all agree that people should have the right to live as they please, so long as they're not hurting others. By living as myself, I'm not hurting anybody else. And I believe I should have the same civil and human rights as anybody else. I'm not imposing on anybody, and I don't want them imposing on me, either.

Best wishes, Annabelle

It's just something that isn't accepted by a lot of people yet, and we have a need to be accepted.

There's a huge lack of understanding surrounding trans topics in general, people need to be taught about this stuff from a young age in order to change the way people feel about it...although there would be a massive outcry of intolerance masked as "traditional values" if we started teaching stuff like this in school...god forbid people actually start to love rather than hate, eh? lol

"There are two types of being out: to everyone you know, or to strangers only. Which "out" do you mean?"
exactly!! i was telling this to my wife/roomate who came out as gay at the same i time i came out as a crossdresser. She expected me to be loud and proud, but as i told her, outting urself is different for everyone! i dont want everybody to know, just those close to me. i dont even want my family to know, as they live 2000 miles away and my dressing doesnt concern them.

Annabelle I see it differently. I have lived with this all of my life but my family has not. I see no reason to cause stress in their life by forcing them to accept or even know about my lifestyle. And yes, if I were to come out to them I would be forcing them to have the knowlege of this which would serve no good purpose at all. It would not help me to feel better but it would turn their lives upside down. Allowing them to know would hurt them. Now with strangers I am not forcing anything on them. What I do does not in any way effect their lives so doing as I please is doing no harm. So in truth telling my family is imposing on others and would be an incredibly selfish thing to do.

I guess part of my 'purpose in life' is to continue to provide some of the answers to this thread's question, as it seems to come up every other month or so.
Life is simply hard enough for some of us, that we don't need any more obstacles to basic existance. Much of the general public does not like to associate with crossdressers; it makes them uncomfortable, and no amount of our trying to 'educate' them is going to change that. I've witnessed many acts of behind the scenes homophobic behavior against gays, and know that it also happens to crossdressers. You may not see it, you may not hear it, but you will be affected by it, somehow, somewhere, if you are 'out'. Friends turn into ex-friends; and sure, you may think, well, if they feel that way, then I don't need them anyway...until they're all gone. Family too; some just suddenly stop contact with us; others, slowly stop inviting us to common social events. At work, we conveniently get left out of group activities 'by accident'. When it's time to downsize and lay someone off, they find another reason to get rid of us, never the real one. The homophobic mailman accidently misdelivers your bills once in a while, or your packages get damaged just slightly more often than those of other people. Lots of things you probably won't notice, but add up to many inconveniences and problems that you will attribute to random chance or other causes. Oh, possibly the worst? You're considered a sexual deviant by law enforcement, and should a child be missing, you'll be one of the first suspects. Ever download pictures off the net? Are you absolutely sure that every single one of them was over 18 when their picture was taken? It only takes one to get you arrested on suspician of child porn if they can somehow connect you to a internet connection in a backwater town where the concept may include much less explicit things than in your own neighborhood. Sure, you may eventually be found innocent, but that won't bring back the costs of a defense. Paranoid, you think? Nope. It happens. Or suppose you have an accident and happen to be either underdressed or crossdressed? You might be the last one of the group of people taken care of, simply because the rescue workers think less of you or because they're repulsed by you. And unless you can prove that your injuries were definitely more serious than the other people involved, you don't have a leg to stand on legally. The list of problems you invite upon yourself goes on and on. Sure, you may never notice. But this stuff goes on every single day, and it affects someone. So call me foolish, or call me a coward, but I simply don't need any more drama, or problems, in my life than I already have.
Cassandra86 wrote,

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I also dont think we are perverts.

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No, but you're not the one we're concerned about. The rest of society may feel very, very differently.

A few years ago I had an accident and broke one of my front teeth in half. Being that this made me look a heluva lot like "Cletus" from The Simspons, I went straight away to have it fixed. The way they fix this, is that they numb you up real good and take what is essentially a Dremel tool and they grind what's left of your tooth down to an impossibly tiny, thin rectangular peg. They then take the fake tooth and shape it just right so it has a slot into which your new tooth-stub fits like a jacket. Then they superglue it all in place with some special dental adhesive thing.

So when you go for a dental checkup, they have to take the fake tooth off. When they do, it hurts like a mutha***** not because there's a wound, but because there is this mass of nerve endings beneath an impossibly thin shell of enamel that is normally shielded warm and safe beneath the prosthetic tooth. It hurts just from the cold air hitting it ... hurt isn't even the right word it's not really pain ... it's more like instinctual panic. A part of your insides is on the outside when it shouldn't be and your brain realizes this. Your heart starts beating fast, your mind starts racing, adrenaline starts pumping, etc.

To me, my femme persona is very much like this part of me that sits inside my fake tooth. It is an extremely vulnerable, internal part of my psyche. I'm not sure I'd ever be able to be "out" like so many here are, even if I had 100% assurance that everyone in my family would be super cool with it, and that I'd face no repercussions in society or my work life etc. Maybe it's just that I'm a pretty introverted, sensitive person to start with, and so this side of me is like that but even more so.

Interested if anyone else here feels this way about it?

I read with interest the comments from Annabelle and almostalady. Two apposing viewpoints but both valid in my opinion but…….

I think it’s good to keep in mind that life is not all black or white. [I know you already appreciate this girls]

The only answer here is the answer that fits your personal situation perhaps?

If I “force my lifestyle” on my family I will do a lot of damage to them. That’s not them forcing there lifestyle on me that’s just ‘how it is’ the real world.

We have to be realistic here I think.

I agree we need to lose the stigma we feel in just the act of going outside the home, and by this I mean in another town, and completely with people who will never know my male life. We should feel free to do that whenever.

Family, friends, workers, etc. is an entirely different consideration, and has little to do with going out dressed, but showing them a side that is not their expected norm, and reactions will vary, and individuals will all handle the various reactions differently. I disagree with the notion that we feel we will be forcing our lifestyle on them. We are however forcing on them new thoughts. I for one have made the judgement that they do not need to have thoughts like these in their already crowded hectic life. It is all I can do to handle them myself.

Barbara

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Originally Posted by almostalady

Annabelle I see it differently. I have lived with this all of my life but my family has not. I see no reason to cause stress in their life by forcing them to accept or even know about my lifestyle. And yes, if I were to come out to them I would be forcing them to have the knowlege of this which would serve no good purpose at all. It would not help me to feel better but it would turn their lives upside down. Allowing them to know would hurt them. Now with strangers I am not forcing anything on them. What I do does not in any way effect their lives so doing as I please is doing no harm. So in truth telling my family is imposing on others and would be an incredibly selfish thing to do.

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First of all, I'm not sure what you mean by "family". Are you talking about your immediate or extended family?

For me, an SO is in a special category because people have the right to marry someone they're sexually attracted to, and most cispeople aren't attracted to transpeople. As regards children, a lot of our members say that they keep their TGism secret because if it became known, their children would be bullied at school. This is a very legitimate fear.

But consider what it means: if I live the way I need to live, my child might well get harassed. In other words, people get at us through our children. By bullying them, they bully us. And a lot of our members don't seem to be angry about that. They say that if they were to impose this on their children, it would be very selfish of them.

Again, I say we're getting things backwards. It's not we who are imposing anything on our children. It's bigots in the world at large that impose this on our children. I understand there's a lot of bullying going at schools that school administrators have a hard time controlling. But what about parents? Do they teach their children not to bully others?

Look at it this way: suppose a neighbor of mine got convicted of and jailed for some crime, so I told my child, "Mr. X is a criminal. You should harass his kids at school tomorrow." Is that good parenting?

If we keep our secret from our kids, we're being pragmatic. But it doesn't mean that we'd be selfish to live the way we want to live. We're simply bowing to the bullies of the world out of necessity. They're the ones in the wrong. Not us. How many cispeople would be OK with the notion that they had to refrain from living in a certain way that's neither illegal nor harmful so that their kids wouldn't be bullied?

It's true that a lot of transpeople stay in the closet out of fear of the consequences for their families. This is very wise. But it doesn't put the bullies in the right. We're not in the wrong. We're simply doing what often enough the world forces us to do. Let's not take their guilt upon ourselves.

I've been in contact recently with some young transpeople who are having an awful time with their parents and siblings. These kids are in genuine distress. Their parents are taking the attitude, "How can you do this to us?" You would think that those closest to the transperson would be the ones who would make the biggest effort to understand--as a way of showing their "love". Sadly, it isn't always the case by any means.

Or if we're talking about the extended family, I can't imagine why I'd care what any of my aunts, uncles or cousins think about me. Other people's circumstances might well be different from mine, though.

Understand: I'm not trying to tell anyone how to deal with their families. It's up to each individual to decide what's best for him/her. I do know what the real world is, and I'm well aware that people often have good reason for keeping a secret.

What I'm arguing against here is the notion that we're imposing on others. E.g., if there's a family member that you're saying nothing to because you feel they won't be accepting, it's not your fault if they're not accepting. There's no reason to take any guilt upon yourself: "Oh, I couldn't possibly impose on him by telling him. . ."

This is my situation. I'm not out to my dad yet, and I may never be. But that's not out of concern for him. He's spent about 80 years proving that he's one of the most closed-minded people in the world. If I don't tell him, it's simply because I don't feel like listening to his rubbish. I've heard more than enough of it. What it means is that more than likely I won't be open and honest with him. But that's not my fault. There are lots of things I haven't been open and honest about with him. Our relationship has suffered a great deal for that reason. Something I regret, but I can't do anything about it.

Would I be causing him some pain by telling him? Yes. But that's not my fault. He's had 80 years to educate himself in all sorts of things that he's never chosen to pursue. So I refuse to feel guilty about this. His lack of acceptance isn't my fault.

That's the way I see it: nobody's lack of acceptance is our fault. If you feel you need to stay in the closet to avoid damage to your own life or those of your family, then by all means do it. Do what you need to do. Just don't take their guilt upon yourself. That's all I'm saying.

[I'll add a remark to this already long post: for many years, while I was a single parent, I stayed deep in the closet out of fear that the Social Services might try to take my son off me. This was a well-founded fear: there's a very well-known transwoman here in Ireland who was long denied much access to her child specifically because she was trans--trans to the point that she needed to transition.

Who was in the wrong--her or the courts/Social Services? Does it make anybody angry that some people see us as unfit to be parents? Or are we going to accept that there's something so wrong with us that we should accept the guilt that a lot of people want to put on us?

Yes, let's be pragmatic. But let's not accept their view that we're in the wrong.]

I'm not so sure it's being scared so much as it is that it's just not convenient sometimes. We have others to think about besides ourselves Hon.:)

Cassandra, there is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from getting all dolled up and strolling out of the house. In eastern Washington state, there was a young high school girl who feinted pregnancy to see what would happen. Her world changed. She also made the local and national news. I also have friends would married out of their faith or ethnic background, and, their world changed.

It would be an interesting exercise for a college term paper for a young man to get all dolled up and stroll out into the world as a woman. Report back the results. Then reveal it was only an exercise, like the girl who became 'unpregnant.'

Nothing at all wrong with enjoying yourself, although the joy may be short lived.

Right on Dee... Regardless of the recent progressive advances on behalf of our community without common sense prevailing in our gender decisions we enter into a world of possibly losing the support and respect within our families, community and employment... Fear therefore is brought about through the specter of loss... Common sense ladies...

Annabelle.....I am answering this way because the post is so long I didn't want to use quotes LOL.....When I said my family I was talking about my kids, and my mother to be specific. It would break my mothers heart and I would never do that. She is over 80 and would not, could not understand. My kids may be able to accept it but no reason to bring a shock like this into their lives if I do not have to. Luckily they live a long way away from me (well my mom lives about 40 miles away the kids a lot further) and there is little chance of being caught by them. I spent my entire life hiding this from them...and my ex wives....and that has worked well for me.


When I was younger I liked to partake of certain herbs, I did not tell my family about that either.

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Originally Posted by Nichola

Well in my case, I worry about the neighbours finding out because I just don't want any hassle, I worry about friends finding out because I'd be afraid of losing them & I worry about my job because I need to make a living.
It's sad, but society in general is just not as accepting as we'd like it to be.

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I am not sure that you are correct. What about gay folks? They seem to find a way to survive while being out to friends, neighbors, and coworkers.

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse

We transpeople need to move away from this view that by being ourselves we're imposing on others. We all agree that people should have the right to live as they please, so long as they're not hurting others. By living as myself, I'm not hurting anybody else. And I believe I should have the same civil and human rights as anybody else. I'm not imposing on anybody, and I don't want them imposing on me, either.

Best wishes, Annabelle

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This is very true. We are not imposing on others, they are imposing on us because we are not hurting anyone. We need to be proud of who and what we are and not cower in the closet. Gay folks made progress by getting out there and being who they are. Many CD's don't have the guts to get out and fight for the cause.

Annabelle, there is a difference between what SHOULD be, and things the way they ARE. When people have jobs they cannot afford to get fired from, or young children, elderly parents, and they are not driven to live full time femme, they need to deal with the way things ARE.

If you do not fear being fired from a job, and if your child is an independent adult, and you are driven to live full time, then you have the luxury of thinking of it in terms of what SHOULD be.

There are no rules that fit both situations.

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Originally Posted by Jamie001

This is very true. We are not imposing on others, they are imposing on us because we are not hurting anyone. We need to be proud of who and what we are and not cower in the closet. Gay folks made progress by getting out there and being who they are. Many CD's don't have the guts to get out and fight for the cause.

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Some of us don't feel compelled to dress in public and fight for the cause. Crossdressing isn't viewed as a lifestyle for some of us. There are gays that are in the closet even in this day and age as well as transexuals. So why should part time closeted CDs suddenly go public and fight for the cause?

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Originally Posted by Dee3

So why should part time closeted CDs suddenly go public and fight for the cause?

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they don't have too, they just have to be satisfied with the current social outlook if they choose not too.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Annabelle, there is a difference between what SHOULD be, and things the way they ARE. When people have jobs they cannot afford to get fired from, or young children, elderly parents, and they are not driven to live full time femme, they need to deal with the way things ARE.

If you do not fear being fired from a job, and if your child is an independent adult, and you are driven to live full time, then you have the luxury of thinking of it in terms of what SHOULD be.

There are no rules that fit both situations.

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Reine, I somewhat agree with you, however I believe that the way to avoid getting fired from a job is to not crossdress at work. When you are away from work go ahead and crossdress because what you do on your own time is your own business. For example, some folks are crossdressers and other folks may be members of nudest colonies but they do not crossdress at work or go to work naked.

Yes, Jamie. I was addressing the question of how much "out" people want to be, and under what circumstances.

People who are retired or who work independently, whose kids have grown, who may be single (or divorced or widowed), have a great deal more freedom than younger, working fathers whose wives may not want to take on the discrimination for themselves and their children. The first group can be out at will, since the impact on people who are arms length (no immediate family, no bosses) will not be too severe. But the second group will fare better only being out to arms length people (strangers in the next town over).

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Annabelle, there is a difference between what SHOULD be, and things the way they ARE. When people have jobs they cannot afford to get fired from, or young children, elderly parents, and they are not driven to live full time femme, they need to deal with the way things ARE.

If you do not fear being fired from a job, and if your child is an independent adult, and you are driven to live full time, then you have the luxury of thinking of it in terms of what SHOULD be.

There are no rules that fit both situations.

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Reine, I'm wondering if people aren't missing the point I was making. I'm not in fact talking about the way things SHOULD be. Nor am I arguing with a single point you're making here.

And when Almostlady says this,

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Originally Posted by almostalady

Annabelle.....I am answering this way because the post is so long I didn't want to use quotes LOL.....When I said my family I was talking about my kids, and my mother to be specific. It would break my mothers heart and I would never do that. She is over 80 and would not, could not understand. My kids may be able to accept it but no reason to bring a shock like this into their lives if I do not have to. Luckily they live a long way away from me (well my mom lives about 40 miles away the kids a lot further) and there is little chance of being caught by them. I spent my entire life hiding this from them...and my ex wives....and that has worked well for me.

When I was younger I liked to partake of certain herbs, I did not tell my family about that either.

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I'm not arguing with that, either. I'm not trying to make any rules for anybody. E.g., I said this:

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse

As regards children, a lot of our members say that they keep their TGism secret because if it became known, their children would be bullied at school. This is a very legitimate fear.

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and I said this:

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse

Understand: I'm not trying to tell anyone how to deal with their families. It's up to each individual to decide what's best for him/her. I do know what the real world is, and I'm well aware that people often have good reason for keeping a secret.

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and I said this:

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse

If you feel you need to stay in the closet to avoid damage to your own life or those of your family, then by all means do it. Do what you need to do.

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In other words, I recognize that people do what they do out of necessity.

What I'm arguing against is the notion that we transpeople are somehow an "imposition" on society. If I live the way I want to live, I'm not any more imposing on society than a woman is if she lives like a woman or a man if he lives like a man or a black person if they live "black".

Consider this: if a woman suffers some kind of discrimination, are we going to tell her, "You should try to hide the fact that you're a woman"? Or if a black person is discriminated against, "You should try to hide the fact that you're black"? No, we say that such discrimination is wrong, and we try to eliminate it.

But transpeople do routinely feel the need to hide what they are. "If my boss found out I'm trans, he'd probably fire me." "Well, then, you should hide the fact that you're trans."

This is the sort of constraint lots of transpeople face. Yes, they're very wise to accept necessity. But it doesn't make it right for society to impose that necessity on us.

This is why I react against transpeople saying, "I don't want to impose my lifestyle on others." Because then we're accepting that discrimination against us is somehow justified, somehow at least partly our fault.

If there are certain people that a given transperson doesn't want to come out to for fear of the consequences, I understand that, I'm not arguing against that. What I am arguing against is the notion that it's our fault.

When someone fears to do something like going to the grocery store because ultimately it might cost her her job, that is a serious infringement of one's civil and human rights. What other group of people would accept that sort of imposition?

"Oh, I can't go to the grocery store because people would see I'm a woman/black/Moslem and then I might lose my job." It sounds insane, doesn't it?

Yet that's what a lot of transpeople have to accept--but I reject the notion that we're imposing anything on anybody. On the contrary, a lot of things are imposed on us.

Best wishes, Annabelle

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse

What I'm arguing against is the notion that we transpeople are somehow an "imposition" on society. If I live the way I want to live, I'm not any more imposing on society than a woman is if she lives like a woman or a man if he lives like a man or a black person if they live "black".

Consider this: if a woman suffers some kind of discrimination, are we going to tell her, "You should try to hide the fact that you're a woman"?

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Right. You are saying that being trans is not an imposition on society. If I were a CDer and lived according to this credo, I would then cease keeping the CDing private, since I would believe that if society does not accept me, it is their problem and not mine.

The other point of view which is one that I adhere to, IF I do not have an abject need to be full time and I also have a job that I want to keep and a family that also does not want to suffer bias because of my CDing, the problems that society in general has in accepting the CDing also become MY problems, even if I believe that everyone "should" accept this. I have to deal with the existing bias as best I can by making certain choices.

Exactly my view. For all choices there are consequences. I look at the possible consequences and decide what my actions will be. I am not pleased with the possible consequences of coming out or transitioning so I do not follow that path.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Right. You are saying that being trans is not an imposition on society. If I were a CDer and lived according to this credo, I would then cease keeping the CDing private, since I would believe that if society does not accept me, it is their problem and not mine.

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Not necessarily. If you believe that the disadvantages of coming out would outweigh the advantages, you'd stay in the closet. Society would still be wrong, but you'd do what you feel is necessary.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

The other point of view which is one that I adhere to, IF I do not have an abject need to be full time and I also have a job that I want to keep and a family that also does not want to suffer bias because of my CDing, the problems that society in general has in accepting the CDing also become MY problems, even if I believe that everyone "should" accept this. I have to deal with the existing bias as best I can by making certain choices.

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Yes. I haven't said anything to the contrary. (By the way, why does this need have to be "abject"?)

The point I'm making is that society is imposing on us. We're not imposing on them. Hence, we have no need to apologize to anybody by saying, "I don't want to impose on others," or "I don't want to force my lifestyle on others."

We'll often have to accept what they impose on us, but that doesn't mean we have to apologize to them.

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Originally Posted by almostalady

Exactly my view. For all choices there are consequences. I look at the possible consequences and decide what my actions will be. I am not pleased with the possible consequences of coming out or transitioning so I do not follow that path.

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I haven't suggested that you should do otherwise. I don't know why people keep insisting that I have.

There seems to be agreement that each person should weigh all the factors and make their own lifestyle decisions. Whether we are imposing on society or vice versa is academic.

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Originally Posted by NicoleScott

There seems to be agreement that each person should weigh all the factors and make their own lifestyle decisions.

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Yes, I certainly agree with this.

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Originally Posted by NicoleScott

Whether we are imposing on society or vice versa is academic.

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But I'm afraid I can't go along with this. For me, this is a very important point, which is why I raised it. Transphobes will use the argument that we're imposing our lifestyle on them, which is wrong of us since we're only a tiny minority. As far as I'm concerned, they've got it backwards: they're the ones imposing their lifestyle on us.

I do think it important to point that out. And I will admit it does bother me when I see transpeople saying virtually the same thing, because in that case we're accepting that this transphobic argument is correct, at least to some extent. We're accepting that TGism is shameful and should be hidden.

A lot of transpeople have good reasons to conceal their lifestyle. But in my opinion, the notion that TGism is shameful shouldn't be one of them. We all have the right to choose our lifestyle. But do we have to be ashamed of ourselves?

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse

Society would still be wrong, but you'd do what you feel is necessary.

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Oh, if you're saying that society is wrong for being biased against the CDing, then I agree in principle and I think that everyone here does too, although I don't think this argument is very useful. The bias exists because the world since time began is accustomed to seeing only two genders, male and female, who for the most part (other than a very small percentage) very much need to differentiate themselves from one another. This has been and still is the norm. People become anxious, or they see it as odd, when gender boundaries are crossed. They don't get it.

It will take a while to get the non-trans 97% of the world population to agree with a third state of being when it comes to people whose internal gender is not congruent with their body. Granted, a few cultures have acknowledged it in the past, but for the most part, the knowledge that there is anything other than male and female and that it is normal to be born not congruent with one's body has not entered the mainstream. Hopefully, as the psychiatric and medical communities remove the pathology from being trans, and as more laws change to recognize trans rights, and more health care providers see it as a valid medical condition that needs to fall within covered medical treatment, things will continue to improve. But, for now it is still an uphill battle and not everyone wants to be at the forefront championing trans causes, especially if they do not need to live full time (if they do have a partial or full male identity).

My sympathies and admiration go out to people who have no choice but to live in a gender opposite than birth. It can't be easy.

Annabelle I do agree that we do not impose our lifestyle on others. I have never tried to talk someone into crossdressing.

Hell I really don't know why ? Maybe because people think that being Different is a sign of weakness ? Maybe the ones that stay hidden do it for the simple fact that if you dress like a girl that means your soft ,, Or an easy target for Bully's . Where I come from being a girl or female does not mean your soft . I know plenty of woman or girls who will be the first to Spank a grown man . So don't think just because someone dons some sexy clothes or shoes you get a free pass to Harris them . I have seen us girls come in all different shapes an sizes . For the most part there the ones that were Super Man before ,,So take heed an watch your lips ,,, You might get a high heel in the Kaa-Boos !! TOOT------TOOT-----

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Originally Posted by ReineD

The bias exists because the world since time began is accustomed to seeing only two genders, male and female, who for the most part (other than a very small percentage) very much need to differentiate themselves from one another. This has been and still is the norm. People become anxious, or they see it as odd, when gender boundaries are crossed. They don't get it.

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Reine,

The psychological community acknowledges that there are two sexes (male and female), and they also agree that gender is a continuum and is certainly not binary. It is society that has the problem of pigeon-holing gender expression based upon biological sex and Hollywood exacerbates the problem by reinforcing gender stereotypes. I saw a program that described this on the Learning Channel last week. When will the information that gender is not binary be imparted to society in general?

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Originally Posted by Jamie001

When will the information that gender is not binary be imparted to society in general?

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I think it already has, but most of the population has their gender stereotypes written in their minds 'in stone', right next to their religion. Changing their minds is a very uphill battle. But as the next generations see us as just another variation, eventually we won't be considered such pariahs in society. Sadly, I won't live long enough to see that day.

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Originally Posted by almostalady

Annabelle I do agree that we do not impose our lifestyle on others. I have never tried to talk someone into crossdressing.

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Exactly. That's why when transphobes make this argument, they're getting things backwards. We don't try to force them to live our lifestyle, but they do often oblige us to live theirs.

This is why I think it's good for us transpeople to accept that we don't in fact impose our values, lifestyle, etc., on cispeople. If we accept this transphobic argument, it's as if we're accepting what the transphobes want us to accept: that there is something inherently shameful about TGism which requires it to be hidden.

To be sure, we often have to keep it hidden. You've got a good reason for saying nothing about it to your mother, we've all got good reasons not to say anything about it to various people. But ultimately this is a necessity imposed upon us by society as it presently is. We can all hope things will change some day.