It isn't mainly the lies or secrets that cause our relationship problems

A word or two about secrecy / lies being the biggest issue between a CD who comes out, and her wife. I'm sure this is a big issue for many - there is no question about that. Once lost, trust is hard to regain. And for some spouses it may be the most important issue, but I really don't think that's generally the case.

There are many issues a husband can have that involve lies and secrets - affairs, addictions, criminal activity - all sorts of things that would seem, on the surface as being worse than being TG.

The problem is that most of these things offer the choice: "Stop that or I'll leave." Presuming the objectionable behavior ends and the relationship was strong, forgiveness can ensue, and over time life goes back to some sort of normal.

There's no end to CDing. It just doesn't stop.

And that's the problem - I think for many women, the hurt they feel over their CD spouse never really ends. Whether it's concerns about social stigma, loss of attraction, discomfort over their own gender role and even their sexual orientation, religious objections or fear their spouse will transition - the hurt just never seems to end for many women. Because the CDing never really stops.

I know some women, through communication and compromises find various levels of comfort, or at least less discomfort over their CD spouse, but I wonder how many, if given one wish, wouldn't wish away their SO's CDing for good?

It's certainly true to say it's a pretty extreme test of one's relationship.

Using magical wishes always backfires. You wish away the crossdressing and your husband gets hit by a truck the next day. No thanks.

I really think it all depends on where the CDer shifts to on the gender spectrum, and how the wife feels about that end-result. I think many many wives are fine with panties. And very few wives are fine with their husband living full time as a woman.

If the changes happen quickly, from panties to full dressing, to going out in public, to radically changing roles during sex... well it's not surprising that many wives panic and run. A lucky CDer gets a slow progression (so his wife has a chance to keep up). An unlucky CDer (or TS) has to move quickly to a place on the gender spectrum that scares the wife and ends the marriage (and may end other relationships as well).

the old saying was "if wishes were horses, beggars would ride". One can speculate on what percentage of women might wish away a partner's imperfections, but as we know, wishes can't and don't come true. Why engage in that fruitless flight of fancy. I'd suggest that for starters, we use the word "some" rather than "many" to discuss the responses of SOs...whether positive or negative....because we don't have a valid count. Many may imply a majority, a large minority or a smaller minority of all women in relationships with CDrs. We don't and perhaps can't know what "Many" actually means. We can agree that some hold those views.

Paula, clearly your wife, and some others here, were unable to accept or compromise. But we also know that others can and do. We have to be careful, very careful about projecting our experience on others. Each person's situation and outcomes will be a unique mix of dynamics, the interplay of individual personalities, belief systems, communications and their shared life histories.

The problem with being TG is that it doesn't fit into any of the previously-mentioned categories.

Like an addiction it is compelling, but it can't go away.

So, it is like a terminal illness, except we don't conveniently go away.

Perhaps it is more like disfigurement, but of a social rather than physical sort. In intolerant sections of society the spouse ends up painted with the same brush as the CDer and this is what many of them fear.

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Originally Posted by Eryn

Perhaps it is more like disfigurement

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Or like a progressive disease, with no way to know how fast the disease will advance, or where exactly it will lead.

I have always believed it had been the lies and secrets that have caused many problems in the cd world especially the marriages. I have always been upfront with my wife and she has totally accepted that I like to dress sometimes.

Paula, you made a very excellent point. An alcoholic can always get sober and start working an AA program, in theory. In practice, it is very difficult for an alcoholic to actually get sober - you can't force your alcoholic husband to get sober, only he can make that choice to stop drinking and start going to AA. The alcoholic must hit rock bottom before they stop drinking. But at least there is hope. There is a chance the alcoholic will stop drinking, and start going to AA. And we see people in the rooms of AA with 10, 20, 30, 40, and even 50 years of sobriety. So an alcoholic never has to drink again. There is real hope. Same thing with drugs other than alcohol, or with any other addiction (sex, gambling, eating, etc...)

The same thing goes for having affairs - although it can be difficult for a man who has had affairs to stop that behavior, it is possible for them to learn to be monogamous for the rest of their life. The same thing goes for criminal activity. Although it can be difficult for someone engaging in criminal behavior to stop, they can stop. Sometimes they have to go to jail for a few years before they stop. But it is possible for a criminal to live an honest, law abiding life for the rest of their life.

With CDing, there is no such hope. Because CDing is part of who you are - there is underlying gender dysphoria, albeit less progressed than a TS, so you can never stop CDing. A CDer's desire to CD will only get stronger as time progresses. If you are TS, it is even worse, because you're left with no choice but to transition. It can be as difficult for a TS to accept the fact that they are powerless over their gender identity and transition, if not harder, than it is for an alcoholic to accept the fact that they are alcoholic and stop drinking.

An alcoholic who stops drinking can still be the man his wife envisioned. In fact, a recovering alcoholic often becomes a better man than the one the wife envisioned. I have heard time and time again from male alcoholics that they learned to be real men in AA. The same thing applied to female alcoholics - they learn to be real ladies in AA. There is little prejudice towards an alcoholic in today's society, and a recovering alcoholic loses little by getting sober. Alcoholics who lose their job or wife after getting 6 months sober often happens because of things they did in the past because of their drinking and not because they decided to stop drinking. Most jobs want a sober, productive employee, not a drunk.

A TS risks losing everything over being TS, in addition to things they did in the past. So there is a much bigger risk to transition. But a TS has no choice. A TS who transitions causes the wife to lose the man she married forever. A CDer causes the wife to lose the man on occasion, plus risks being socially stigmatized for being associated with the CDer.

There is no known cure for CDing, and the only known cure for being TS is to transition. Just my two cents.

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Originally Posted by kimdl93

Paula, clearly your wife, and some others here, were unable to accept or compromise. But we also know that others can and do. We have to be careful, very careful about projecting our experience on others.

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I don't think I'm projecting at all. My wife's reaction was fairly extreme really - the moment I described my CDing, she lost her image of me as her man. When I altered a characteristic she felt was a defining masculine trait, like my hirsute chest, she couldn't even touch me anymore. I don't think most women react quite that severely, although it's pretty bad for lots of us. For girls who transition, probably 9/10 of our marriages fail. Many of the ones that succeed don't look much like marriages anymore, at least from the inside. I haven't encountered many at all that could be described as "happy." My wife's reaction was pretty typical for a relationship with a TS. As much as it pains me to say it, I think in that situation, the women who get out quickly are either lucky or smart.

For CDs, the prevalence of "DADT" relationships suggest that for lots of the relationships that do survive, the wife can just barely tolerate the CDing - really only to the point of never seeing or hearing about it, and possibly pretending it doesn't exist. This suggests that a pretty good number - we don't know an exact statistic - probably don't make it because of CDing. We also know that very, very few women find CDing an appealing enough trait that they'd advertise for such a partner in personals ads. This stuff all suggests to me that non-acceptance is quite common, and the probability that a given spouse won't be able to tolerate CDing is fairly high. Nowhere near TS levels, because, after all, compromise is possible, but pretty bad. (DADT is pretty untenable for a relationship with a TS.)

@JessM.
My wife seemed to have several problems, with lies and secrecy being the least of them:
- She lost her image of me as a man.
- She really didn't feel she knew who I was anymore. This was a worse breach of trust for her than just a lie - she really didn't know who I was as a person any longer. The relationship really didn't quite exist for her anymore.
- Seeing me fully dressed with clothes, makeup, wig, forms, shoes really bothered her. She couldn't sit with me and watch TV if I was dressed.
- Even the rather minor physical changes she saw (nail polish, hair removal by waxing) completely repulsed her.
- Her interest in me sexually mostly evaporated. She could sometimes get herself in the mood if she'd had some drinks first.
- Although we didn't change our roles during sex, by the time I came out to her, I was having problems with sex. She took these quite personally, as if she were somehow lacking. (Quite the contrary, really. She's beautiful and desirable, but it's hard to do much when your genitals just feel completely wrong on your body.)

I feel a common thread in many of the above is that in many ways, my wife defined herself in part with respect to me. Who I was mattered to her, it reflected on her, and in a very real sense, it was a part of her. When I changed, and the nature of our relationship changed - at least from her perspective, it affected some of her perceptions of herself. She loved being in a relationship with an intelligent, good looking, moderately manly man. (At least I looked the part.) She had no idea how to begin to react to being in a relationship with whatever the hell I was. (Again, from her perspective.) She literally grieved as if I had died, yet she was haunted by my ghost - one that looked like a woman sometimes.

The emotional rollercoaster that ensued destroyed our relationship. My physical presence, even presenting as a male, hurt her badly. In the end, staying together was impossible.

From talking with a number of genetic women on the forum, some of them have described reactions that matched one or two of the things my wife seemed to experience, usually in a milder form. (Although still quite painful and difficult for so many of them.) I really think the perceived change in the identity of the CDing spouse is just a huge problem for quite a few genetic women.

I'm not trying to minimize the role of secrecy and lies leading to an SO's feelings of having been deceived - I've read many accounts here from GGs who were more hurt by their CDing spouse's lack of trust than by seemingly anything else.

I just don't think this is the major issue most of the time. Because look - deception stops when you come out. Except, of course, if the negotiated compromise between spouses is DADT. In that case, the CDing is still hidden, and realistically, deception still occurs. This is a common arrangement, and you'd think that if secrets and lies and deception were the biggest issue much of the time, that DADT wouldn't be so common.

Please don't take any of this as a criticism of women who struggle in relationships with CDers, or even an indictment of DADT - women are entitled to their feelings, and this gender stuff is hard.

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Originally Posted by Michelle789

. A CDer's desire to CD will only get stronger as time progresses.

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This is only true of gender motivated dressers. I know at least three wives whose husbands dressed LESS as they got older and their sex drives decreased. One stopped entirely. I think this forum is guilty of forgetting about the other crossdressers out there (the majority, perhaps?) who are the sexually motivated kind. They are not any easier to live with even if the path is slightly different!

And I actually agree in part with Paula - plenty of women lose trust after disclosure (maybe the majority?) but there are also some who find out early in the relationship and think they're okay with it, only to dislike it more and more as time passes. I'm guilty of this. The 'oh gawd, there really is no end to this' is definitely something I've thought. Who wouldn't? Crossdressing can be consuming and relentless...and very, very boring!!! Who wouldn't wish it away?? It's like having your very own Ground Hog Day.

From my perspective, the real root of the problem is crossdressing just doesn't mesh well with heterosexual life and what we expected from it. Let's face it - you're throwing a bigger social spanner into a relationship than the alcoholic, cheating, bipolar dude. At least people will sympathise if you marry one of them...AND he looks like a dude! You look like someone our brother might date and that's a head spin most heterosexual women can't overcome. If we wanted to date someone who looked like a woman, wouldn't we just date an actual woman? So what does crossdressing offer us other than sexual confusion and some long, lonely, boring nights?? A happy husband. For some women, thats enough. For others, they want to share in the happiness and can't because crossdressing upsets them too much. Compromise isn't always possible either, because the wives are literally compromising on their innate self, as you would be by not dressing as needed.

If I'm honest, I don't think there are many women in this world who would choose a crossdressing partner. They're out there, I'm sure, but they're scarce, and because you outnumber us a gazillion to one, either you decide to remain alone (which is so unnecessary!) or you accept some limitations on your dressing and try and enjoy your life in a relationship that comes FIRST. Learn self control and self awareness, and NEVER blame obsessive dressing on a 'Pink Fog'. From a wife's point of view, you're acting like a petulant child, and giving it a cutesy name doesn't make it less destructive.

Dressing can cause a problem, but loss of trust by lying, deceit and cheating, do the most damage.

On reading the subject line of your post, Paula, I was quite prepared to take issue. After reading the rest of your post, I have to agree with you. I don't blame CDs wives and SOs in the least for feeling betrayed, deceived, and deathly afraid of their future married state. I've seen more than one CDer come out of the closet, get out the door, start HRT, and completely destroy their marriage. What on earth did you expect?

Paula I think some wives would wish their partners were on a different planet !
Tinkerbell brings up the point about the sexual content, this is my problem. You may or may not have caught previous comments I've made on this but I've always had that close link. I have put my wife in a bit of a dilemma because she is coming to terms with my CDing and has chosen to keep the marriage together, but during our last talk we both realised and agreed that if I didn't have the constraints of CDing I would probably have had affairs. Most issues in our marriage are compatible apart from this one, we both accept she's not intersested ! I'm not sure how she feels about that but I feel rejected, I only have CDing to turn to.
I posted a thread in Loved Ones about honesty, really it doesn't come in black and white but various shades of grey ! Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth !!

It must be really difficult if you been married for a while like 10 to 20 years then halfway through that marriage you become a crossdresser, how you tell your wife that must be hard because I don't think she would believe you and probably think you been lying the entire time.:sad:

Honesty is always the best policy, if your one that's going to get married then all this stuff should come out before the marriage or if your dating someone then just be open and honest about it all that way your partner can make his or her own mind up for what to do next

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Originally Posted by Tinkerbell-GG

From my perspective, the real root of the problem is crossdressing just doesn't mesh well with heterosexual life.

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That's a big problem indeed - life with a CD puts you solidly outside the heteronormative life most of us are brought up to expect. The pressure to fit in within the heteronormative world is quite intense for many of us. In some parts of the world, you'll risk your life if you don't fit this template, or at least pass as someone who does.

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Originally Posted by Tinkerbell-GG

If we wanted to date someone who looked like a woman, wouldn't we just date an actual woman?

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Yep, pretty much, that's exactly what you'd do. The exception would be bisexual women - they tend to deal with CDs with much less difficulty than straight women do.

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Originally Posted by Tinkerbell-GG

If I'm honest, I don't think there are many women in this world who would choose a crossdressing partner. They're out there, I'm sure, but they're scarce, and because you outnumber us a gazillion to one, either you decide to remain alone (which is so unnecessary!) or you accept some limitations on your dressing and try and enjoy your life in a relationship that comes FIRST.

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If the CDs outnumber the women who'd choose a CD partner by a gazillion to one (I believe that, btw), how do you avoid a lot of them being alone? I mean, if a CD tries to date a woman, and tells her up front "I'm a CD, but I'll accept limitations on my dressing for the sake of the relationship", wouldn't a typical reaction from a woman be "uh, right - hey, great date and everything, but I don't think this is gonna work out..."?

I've talked with some number of CDs in DADT relationships. Rather few of them I've spoken with have actually sounded "happy" about their relationships.

It seems to me this only ever works fairly well when the CDs needs and the SOs tolerance are fairly evenly matched. If they aren't well matched, one or the other partner is liable to be pretty unhappy, at least some of the time.

BTW, I don't forget about sexually motivated CDs. How could I? If you observed my behavior over my life, up to last year, you'd have had good reason to conclude that's what I was. And you'd have been wrong - look at me now. :( I wish I could tell you that I was the only person I knew who fit that pattern, and ultimately transitioned, but I'm not. Not even close.

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Originally Posted by Teresa

I posted a thread in Loved Ones about honesty, really it doesn't come in black and white but various shades of grey ! Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth !!

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I've long said this - some spouses don't want the truth. I don't think that's especially healthy, but people are who they are.

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Originally Posted by Lynn Marie

I've seen more than one CDer come out of the closet, get out the door, start HRT, and completely destroy their marriage. What on earth did you expect?

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Yeah, I'm not really talking about MtF transsexuals here - they are a more extreme situation, because there isn't much compromise that's possible, unfortunately. I just happen to be one - although I long hoped I was "just a CD." But yeah, in my case, I expected to lose my marriage with about a 99% certainty, and I was pretty well sure that I'd lose everything and everyone else in my life along the way. So far, that's largely what I'm experiencing.

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Originally Posted by Tinkerbell-GG

. . . From my perspective, the real root of the problem is crossdressing just doesn't mesh well with heterosexual life and what we expected from it. Let's face it - you're throwing a bigger social spanner into a relationship than the alcoholic, cheating, bipolar dude. At least people will sympathise if you marry one of them...AND he looks like a dude! You look like someone our brother might date and that's a head spin most heterosexual women can't overcome. If we wanted to date someone who looked like a woman, wouldn't we just date an actual woman? So what does crossdressing offer us other than sexual confusion and some long, lonely, boring nights?? . . . Compromise isn't always possible either, because the wives are literally compromising on their innate self, as you would be by not dressing as needed

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Tink,

While I take your point if the CDing is invading the sex life it is not a good thing for any relationship unless both parties are willing. Specifically, the CDer wants to role play in bed as another woman and the SO does not want this. However, this is not true for all relationships. Since coming out to my wife our heterosexual life has not faltered one iota and it is still as loving as before. Now this could have something to do with fact that there is only one gal in the marital bed (my lovely wife) and one guy (me). I am not sure what you mean by "date someone who looks like a woman". Again if the CDer desires to go out on dates with his SO with him as a woman and she is not willing . . . point taken. However, my wife has seen me dressed on several occasions and we have talked about this "Does she think less of me as a man" and her response was simple "No because the man she married is still there just dressed differently".

It is society which says I should/must/will dress in boxers, jeans and a t-shirt . . . does that make me a man (the way I dress?). No, it is my inner qualities which do that, loving, caring, nurturing, strong, protective, and a whole host of behaviors all people (men and women) can exhibit. Clothing is an exterior expression but it should not be confused with the inner person. A relationship built on external presentation only is one doomed to fail once one party no longer meets the "perfect idea" of the other party. I have had friends leave their wives because the wife gained too much weight. Likewise I have had female friends leave husbands who got portly and began loosing their hair. If the CDer is being a selfish, childish jerk then yes I get your point. But if he is still loving, a good husband and all the things you married . . . are you prepared to throw that away because society says men wear suits not dresses? Not being argumentative here . . . just looking for some knowledge to discuss more so with my wife as this subject fascinates me. :)

You are right and compromise is not always possible. If that is the case then it is probably time to call an end to the relationship and both parties move on with their respective lives. That is what adults do when faced with very tough choices.

Hugs

Isha

I love a good discussion, too, Isha, so no arguing here either :)

And when I say 'date', I mean spending time with that person. The sex part doesn't mean the sex act either, but rather our innate sexuality and that which we're attracted.. I actually think many women entwine their own identity and sexuality in that of their partners, so when the partner wants to look like the girl, what on earth does that make her? It's really hard to see beyond the physical to the person beneath when your own identity has become confused. I suspect your wife has been with you as her 'manly man' long enough not to see Isha when you are her. Many don't have this perspective and instead, their partner becomes this entirely different person...a person that looks like someone they WOULDN'T have married. Remember, we're not gay. We don't want to marry women - of anyone who looks like a woman.

I think it's often forgotten here that while we might not be as visually driven as men, we are still affected by our biological drive for a heterosexual man. Usually, he's not presenting as a biological woman! That's the first most obvious cue that we're on the right track. Heterosexual women AVOID other women. Obviously! So what is a crossdresser telling a woman when he presents as the very thing she's avoiding?? Is he fooling us? Trying to confuse us?? It's not about us, of course, but how on earth can we know that when we don't know why crossdressing is about? That's most women, for the record. This is not a common subject on high school :)

I really think the big question for women is - what natural instincts must we put aside in order to see the man below the woman??

Your wife knew the man a lot longer than Isha. More than most here, I think? I wouldn't mind betting that helped, a lot.

Thanks Tink . . . gives me another perspective. I think you are right in that my wife has known "boy me" longer than girl me so that may help her. As well I only spend about 20% of my time as Isha the other 80% is boy me.

Hugs

Isha

Hi Tink
I wanted to quote what you said, but I realised that I would end up quoting everything you said :)

I totally agree with everything you said. It is so true that we tend to define ourselves by what we see/how we think of our husbands, and if he is dressed, I struggle to define myself at that moment.
I try to be understanding, but most of the time I hardly get past the point of tolerate...

I think a big problem for us is also that we both feel we sacrifice alot wrt CD.
My husband gets ONLY about 3 nights a month to be fully dressed, together with some underdressing when he wants to, and he feels that hemakes a big sacrifice since he would like to do it more.
I feel that everything he does wrt CD, ie dressing, underdressing, shopping, browsing and whatnot causes me to sacrifice on my perception of what a straight, monogamous marriage should be. Especially since I didn't know that he is a CD when we got married.
So we both feel we give more than we want to, and get less than we would like to get.

I do love him and want to see him happy, but I wish he could find something 'nonthreatening' to make him happy...

Just my gg opinion.
Love
Lidea

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Originally Posted by Isha

are you prepared to throw that away because society says men wear suits not dresses?

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Hi Isha
I must disagree with you here. If it was only about the dressing, that would have been easy. But it is about the whole 'changing into a woman' thing. If my husband sits next to me dressed, he doesn't look and act like a man in a dress... he looks and acts like a woman. There is no wayfor me to still see and acknowledge the husband that I married. And I doubt that he would want me to see him then as my husband, because he is trying so hard to not be a man at that stage. He would want me to see him as a woman.

Hugs
Lidea

I am fortunate to be married to a one-in-a-gazillion lady who sees it as "just close." She did comment that she can see how many women would not like or accept or even tolerate CDing in any form. According to her a man represents strength and security, and women seek/need that. Accordingly, a mental picture of what strength and security look like is born and social norms are established to re-enforce that.

Now, along comes a guy in a dress and, "Bam." That's not strength and security, and not a man and not desired. If a relationship had already been in existence, and suddenly the symbol of strength and security is cloaked as something else, well . . . that could be very difficult to digest -- if at all.

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Originally Posted by Lidea

... And I doubt that he would want me to see him then as my husband, because he is trying so hard to not be a man at that stage. He would want me to see him as a woman....

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Lidea, have you asked your husband this question? And more importantly, if you were to cross dress (beard, stuffing, etc.,) would your husband accept you as you do him? Would he see you as a dude or as his wife dressed as a dude? OR something else?

I see your point about the "changing." I am a full "changer. Wig, makeup, forms, etc.," when I dress as well. But I never think that I am a woman. For whatever reason(I believe entirely genetic) I have this need to cross dress on occasion. My wife does not see me as a woman nor does she see her "husband" under the wig either. It's something in-between. Cross dressing is really weird territory for sure.

Anyway, don't "doubt" instead, ask him about it. Conversation can only help.

Personally, I think I would feel the same way if my husband took to dressing up in his spare time as a Klingon, or as Batman, or as a steampunk creature with a wig & top hat, or a RenFaire knight, or a Civil War reenactor -- complete with adopted mannerisms and appropriate language for the role.

The first month he did it, it might be fun to figure it out with him. Then afterwards, it would be okay if he wore some of the gear and we watched TV together. But I think my tolerance for hanging out with him in full Civil War gear and a fake southern accent would be pretty limited.

It's NOT that I define myself in relation to him and so him changing makes me question my own identity. That's really not it.

It's just that I like one persona, the one I met, dated & married. And when he becomes someone else, no matter how much joy he finds in the role, that's hard for me because I don't know that new persona, and generally, I am not likely to like that new person. Most new people I meet are not people I want to date & cuddle with and have as roommates. So why would the new persona of my husband (whatever the persona's gender) be someone I want to date & cuddle with and have as a roommate?

After 34 years of marriage Tina appeared one morning. That's not an exaggeration. The first time was really meager, but the first person to see me en femme was my wife. That fact that I was comfortable doing that (I have always hated the idea of dressing for Halloween, for example) fascinated both of us, and Tina was born to find out what this "comfort" was all about. There was never deceit, lying, or any other normal crossdressing issues because I had never before crossdressed.

I guess because I had been nominally "male" for so long (I was 55), I had a male life I liked a lot, and a great life with my wife. There was no way I was going to give that up, but Tina needed to be investigated as she had clearly been lurking in the background all my life, from what we could tell.

What happened next was talk talk talk talk talk. She and I both asked questions, many of which had no immediate answers. We needed to experience Tina, and that's just what we did. As a part of it, Tina had to learn what being a women means from scratch, and this is where it turned incredibly positive! I learned so much about my wife I could never have known. Little details of growing up: emotions, experiences, expectations, and desires were all compared to what it is like growing up as a boy. After 9 years my wife still thinks Tina is still in her "girl-equivalent" late teen years in terms of growing up as a girl. So now my wife has the husband she had, but she also has the equivalent of a girlfriend being carried around in the same head that used to just house her husband.

I'm sure that if I had crossdressed earlier in life and had not mentioned it before we were married, the whole Tina experience would have been so very different, and certainly not as positive.

With all the threads there have been about this topic of "coming out" to one's spouse or prospective spouse, I have mused about how I might have handled the situation if I had been aware of Tina before meeting my wife. If Tina had been public in my late-teen/early 20s years, I can see that it would have been completely natural to explain that to she who was to be my wife. But if I had hidden Tina from everyone and was very afraid to have it generally known that I was "gender fluid", I really don't know when or how I would have brought it up for fear of having my gender status suddenly made very public. My conclusion was that I would have to be prepared to be outed completely before sharing that part of me with my prospective wife. Those thoughts have made me very sympathetic to those now caught in this problem of disclosure, and extremely sympathetic to the wives now trying to deal with that disclosure, especially after being married for a while before learning about their husband's gender situation. Add to that fact that if the wife knows little about MtF crossdressing, looking to the web for information could be a complete disaster!

JessM: For us, the one persona that my wife knew for 34 years was the composite me. In our opinion all we are doing is identifying which persona belongs to which gender identity. It's actually made our situation clearer. We do understand how emotional this all can be, and because of that we've agreed that if there is a day particularly that she "wants her man", Tina stays in the closet. That seems only fair since she assumed it was a man she was marrying! The obverse is that some days she really wants to visit with her girlfriend, and as long as I'm also agreeable, the transformation takes place and Tina arrives. It's still all the person she married, just gender clarified :) I know I'm only one data point, but your response above prompted a further explanation of my experience.

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Originally Posted by CrossJess

It must be really difficult if you been married for a while like 10 to 20 years then halfway through that marriage you become a crossdresser, how you tell your wife that must be hard because I don't think she would believe you and probably think you been lying the entire time.:sad:

Honesty is always the best policy, if your one that's going to get married then all this stuff should come out before the marriage or if your dating someone then just be open and honest about it all that way your partner can make his or her own mind up for what to do next

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I could not agree with you more Jess. The only problem is that most of us are so stigmatized by society and the "norms" that we fight the urge to be ourselves. This leads to being farther along in life, and yes sometimes married, before it becomes apparent that we dress cause we were born too. I'm lucky in that my wife is totally in love with Emily, and being her has made our marriage nothing but stronger.

PaulaQ,

I've been really impressed with your last few threads/posts.

It seems you've really been able to look within yourself and achieve this gut level honesty and clear, objective vision from within.

The depth of empathy and your understanding of your wife's feelings and reactions is very touching.

I think it takes a very tender heart and an acceptance and understanding of your own suffering and reactions to do that.

Lidea, I completely get what you mean. The few times I saw my H fully dressed was unnerving at best, and outright traumatising on the days I just wasn't emotionally up for it. He, too, doesn't behave as he usually does. He doesn't behave like a woman either, or any woman I know, but I can tell HE thinks he's being feminine or whatever. Really, he just looks drugged and high. He is a stranger and it's sad, because we married our best friends, not strangers.

Does your H want you to see him as an actual woman? Jennifer made a good point that you should ask him this. I assumed, as you do, that mine wanted this. When I finally discussed it with him I understood he wanted me to physically see him as female, but underneath he's still the guy I married. Well, I tried that approach, too, and that still didn't help me. He'd still look high and different and I couldn't be around him anymore. It's so true what you wrote - this happiness for them is quite the threat for us. I get knots in my stomach and feel like I'm in a bad melodrama where the wife is meant to pretend everything is normal when there's enormous pink elephant crowding the living room!

Some days, I think this can't possibly be healthy for a spouse? But others, more so since joining here, I see it as strange, but harmless, and something I don't need to be involved in anymore. So my H dresses away now where I don't have to see it. That's helped, a lot. No one said we had to involve ourselves in all our spouses past times and while this is an important one for him, so was my sanity, so this works for us. For now.

I try not to think too long about the future, to be honest. When you have something like crossdressing in your relationship, and all the unknowns that can bring, planning ahead seems pointless as we can never truly know what will happen. Look at Paula! Rare, sure - but it happens and that will always be there in the back of my mind every time my H dresses.

I wonder if the wife of a recovering alcoholic is always just waiting for that fateful day he picks up a drink?

Tinkerbell i dont think anyone can accuse you of not trying. I asked my wife moments ago if my CDing impacted her image of me or her own identity as a wife.
She basically said no and not really. It is what it is.
She said its neither awesome or sucks. Its just part of who i am. Admittingly i tone down the feminine gestures and walk around her. I get how this can be traumatic to an SO.
For clarity, i didnt realize i was CD until ten years into our marriage. Its clarified alot about me but obviously muddied the relationship waters at the same time.
You sound like your really trying tinker. But ultimately it doesnt sound like you can accept it. On any level. I hope the best for you and your SO

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Originally Posted by Tinkerbell-GG

..., planning ahead seems pointless as we can never truly know what will happen. Look at Paula! Rare, sure - but it happens and that will always be there in the back of my mind every time my H dresses....

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Tink, you don't stop planning even though he could get cancer or be hit by a bus, right? It may be in the back of ones mind that "things" can happen but they are so unlikely that we don't worry about them. If transsexualism is your greatest fear, it's either a) he's not, so don't worry or b) he is and there is nothing you can do about it, so why worry? By the way, it's a) he's more likely to be hit by a bus.

water off a ducks back....

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Originally Posted by Jenniferathome

By the way, it's a) he's more likely to be hit by a bus.

water off a ducks back....

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Thanks Jen, I do actually know it's option a) - my H doesn't even dress that often (decreasing over time, even) and looks at me like I have three heads whenever I suggest TS. In his mind, the two are not even on the same planet so what's my problem?

Well, as we figured out here some time back, I'm a typical female over-thinker, lol. I still do that, but I'm also compartmentalising the whole thing much better than I used to and that's helping A LOT.

I think you're right though, Hope Springs - I'll never accept CD in the way that it will be a part of my life and I like it. But I can accept my H needs it and tolerate it the best I can. You all have really helped me do that.

Lidea, we really need to have a wine-whine night where we can chat about our crazy lives! lol. :)

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Originally Posted by Tinkerbell-GG

I wonder if the wife of a recovering alcoholic is always just waiting for that fateful day he picks up a drink?

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I think it's common at first. But if the alcoholic truly recovers, entering a spiritual program to deal with their alcoholism, and continues their program, maintaining their sobriety, I think the worry of this fades over time.

My own wife met me after I'd been sober for three years. She worried about my alcoholism a lot at first - I was open with her about it. Over time, she worried less and less about it. After a few years, she never even thought about it. For what it's worth, I've been sober for 24 years now.

I think that was one of the things that made her so certain I'd transition, even though I didn't want to believe it myself. She'd seen things that I'd overcome in my past, and when I told her "My gender issues are beyond my ability to stop - I can not suppress them anymore, I must follow this through, where ever it leads, and what ever the cost, or I will surely die," she knew that whatever it was that I faced, it was serious, earnestly serious. She also knew that I'd never put anything before our relationship - until the moment I said "where ever it leads, and what ever the cost."

My gender has been the most overwhelming and powerful thing I've ever faced in my lifetime. I thought that I understood the concept of "powerlessness" after 23 years of sobriety. After all, I knew that I was powerless over alcohol - if I took a drink, I'd soon be completely out of control. But what I experienced made me realize that I didn't understand powerlessness at all.

My poor wife was right, and I was an arrogant fool.

Paula,
This is what I just posted on a Stephanie47's Thread:

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Perhaps, because MANY CD's use their dressing as a 'cover' to attract men, and then the wife finds out they had been Gay all their life. ULTIMATE BETRAYAL. Permanent Emotional Damage to the FAITHFUL wife = Ugly Divorce.
And, ultimately, the ex-husband has himself what he wanted to be all along - a W***E with men.

This happened to one of my friends, and he feels extreme guilt over what he did to his wife.
I don't particularly care to around him anymore, he's only into himself, and no one else matters. Jerk!

I remained faithful to my Beautiful wife, but she just could not tolerate my CD'ing. She once told me that she married a man, not a woman. I miss her.

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Kisses, :kiss:
Simone

Simone, if you substitute the word "many" with the words "one in a million" then you might be right.

"It isn't mainly the lies or secrets that cause our relationship problems"

I'm not sure that lies and secrets are NOT the main causes of relationship problems, It's very easy to argue that they are, No one likes to be lied to or to have secrets kept from them, especially in a relationship. The big issue that I've read in the forum here from the people in relationships where there was/is lying and secrets are that it is not once,twice or three times. Crossdressing is a continual active occurrence. It's not just a , oops i did something one time. Its the nights out, the money spent, the hidden items around the house.

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Originally Posted by Jenniferathome

Simone, if you substitute the word "many" with the words "one in a million" then you might be right.

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Jennifer, I respect your opinion. But then tell me why is there are SO many links at the bottom of this website?, ESP.:
//http://www.cdrelationship.com/ & http://www.crossdressingrelationship.com/ ?

You don't see these kinds of ads at the bottom of the WSJ, or WP.

Kisses,:kiss:
Simone

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Originally Posted by suchacutie

JessM: For us, the one persona that my wife knew for 34 years was the composite me. In our opinion all we are doing is identifying which persona belongs to which gender identity. It's actually made our situation clearer... It's still all the person she married, just gender clarified :)

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That sounds lovely -- I'm glad it works that way for you. But that's not my experience. The new female persona feels like a new person arrived in our lives. She doesn't add clarity to our situation. She doesn't seem to understand me the way he does. And it doesn't feel like now I finally understand the composite person I married. It feels like part of him is shrinking, and this new persona is making herself at home in his life.

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Originally Posted by Tinkerbell-GG

The few times I saw my H fully dressed was unnerving ... He, too, doesn't behave as he usually does...Really, he just looks drugged and high. He is a stranger and it's sad, because we married our best friends, not strangers.

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That's like my experience. In fact thinking of it as a drug makes some sense to me. It's like those nights when he comes home from an event drunk, but I stayed home and am sober. He's not himself, and he's not very much fun (unless I were also drunk).

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Originally Posted by Jenniferathome

Simone, if you substitute the word "many" with the words "one in a million" then you might be right.

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It happens a lot more than you think or would like to admit.

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Originally Posted by Simone_40

Jennifer, I respect your opinion. But then tell me why is there are SO many links at the bottom of this website?, ESP.:
//http://www.cdrelationship.com/ & http://www.crossdressingrelationship.com/ ?

You don't see these kinds of ads at the bottom of the WSJ, or WP....

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I don't run this site, but links at the bottom of a page (I have never noticed these links until today) do not infer meaning upon the users of that site. I have no doubt it has occurred, but it is the exception, not the rule.

"It isn't mainly the lies or secrets that cause our relationship problems"
Right. It's the loss of attraction. Romantic, couple relationships are all based on sexual attraction. When that's gone, so with it usually goes the love. And when the love is gone, there's simply no reason to stay together in a woman's mind, especially when you add the feelings of being deceived to it. Change yourself from a masculine man, to a feminine one, and you pretty much have changed who you are to any woman you are in a romantic and/or sexual relationship. And bingo, it's either over, or the beginning of the end.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jenniferathome

I don't run this site, but links at the bottom of a page (I have never noticed these links until today) do not infer meaning upon the users of that site. I have no doubt it has occurred, but it is the exception, not the rule.

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Jennifer, You are actually telling me that someone who has made 3,302 posts NEVER looked at all of the links at the bottom of this website until today & saw the many links for CD's who want to 'DATE'(?) other CD's???
Who owns this website? We all KNOW who THEY are, and they are making tons of $$$ from these websites.

Hi All

Since I seem to have become the topic of some of this discussion, (well see the post of my dear wife Lidea and Tinkerbell) I will break my silence. First off, though I sometimes in the past struggled with feelings of actually wanting to be a woman, I have put that behind me, and moved on to accepting myself as "only a crossdresser". I know I can never be a woman, either physically, emotionally or spiritually, nor do I want to be. Just as it is taxing for me to be a man all of the time, it would be a 100 times worse to be expected to be that all of the time. I am not a woman, full stop. Transition mransition.

When I transform into Jenny I do like to put on the full persona though. Yes I do like to dress all the way. Yes I do like to look in the mirror and see a girl staring back at me. Yes I do like to feel pretty and appreciated. I do like to adopt female mannerisms because at that time I do not like to act like a "dude in a dress". Why I cannot tell you because I don't know myself. For those moments I feel whole, I feel alive, I feel ecstatic which I rarely do otherwise. Why? Because those moments are so rare, so few and far between, so short. Will I experience those moments if I dressed full time or even more? Certainly not, no-one can feel like that all the time, and excuse the pun but it'll only become a drag.

I do however know that it is still just a superficial act, and that I can never fathom the full extent of female emotions, thoughts and feelings. Maybe others on this forum reckon they can, but I know I fall far short of true femininity. True femininity lies not in what you wear, how you look, how you act, how you speak, it lies in what you think, what you feel, how you regard others and act towards them. When it comes to these things I really am just a "dude in a dress".

So dressing three times a month is enough, and since I'm putting myself out there anyway, I'll go the whole nine yards and say three times a month would be more than what I've done since "The (mis)adventures of Jenny". Now I'll be in trouble again, hope the next "Jenny night" survives...

I do like to dress at home though. Why? Convenience? I suppose so. Saving on hotel bills? Yes you caught me. The truth? Company. I really really enjoy your company whether I be J... or Jenny. I like to share my live with you, all of it and I understand it might be a bit much for you to stomach when I'm dressed as Jenny. I also thank you that you have found it in your heart to accommodate Jenny when everything in you scream out against it. It is and always will be appreciated.

So don't fret, I am still the man you married, well most of the time. I "visit" because I prefer your company a hundred times over to what's at the gay bar I'd be banished to otherwise. I love you, I want to be with you, I just cannot be what you want me to be all the time.

Jenny
Glad you joined in the discussion.
Sorry to hear that you will be in trouble again. And why would your Jenny night not survive??
You leave us confused :eek:

Hi dear. You know me, always trying to stir the pot...:battingeyelashes: You mos know by now: Crossdressing would be tragic if it was so funny, or is that funny if it wasn't so tragic. I'm getting confused...

@Simone_40 - Although I think that most of the CDs here are straight, there are plenty of CDs (more than the girls here like to admit) that want to date, or experiment with a man or another CD. There's no question about that - perusing CL or various dating sites specializing in TG girls readily confirms this. I don't know if it's bisexuality, or maybe desperation, because finding a woman who wants a CDer is difficult.

But yeah, it's one of the little things girls on this site tend to downplay. I don't think it's the majority of CDs or anything close to that, but it's way more common than folks here admit. (The other one that's downplayed is that some of us transition.)

I don't know how common it is for CDers to cheat on their spouses with a guy or other CD, I wouldn't think that was anything like the majority, but I'm sure it happens sometimes, probably more commonly than people here admit. Definitely more than one in a million! ;)

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

I think that was one of the things that made her so certain I'd transition, even though I didn't want to believe it myself. She'd seen things that I'd overcome in my past, and when I told her "My gender issues are beyond my ability to stop - I can not suppress them anymore, I must follow this through, where ever it leads, and what ever the cost, or I will surely die," she knew that whatever it was that I faced, it was serious, earnestly serious. She also knew that I'd never put anything before our relationship - until the moment I said "where ever it leads, and what ever the cost."
at all.

My poor wife was right, and I was an arrogant fool.

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PaulaQ, Congrats on your 24 yrs. of sobriety. As far as when you told your wife,"where ever it leads, and what ever the cost.", I basically said the same thing to my Beautiful wife, albeit I never thought those words would come out of my mouth when we fell in love and got married. I, too was an arrogant fool, and I lost the best thing that ever happened to me because my CD'ing urge ultimately became something I couldn't control.

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Originally Posted by CrossJess

It must be really difficult if you been married for a while like 10 to 20 years then halfway through that marriage you become a crossdresser, how you tell your wife that must be hard because I don't think she would believe you and probably think you been lying the entire time.:sad:

Honesty is always the best policy, if your one that's going to get married then all this stuff should come out before the marriage or if your dating someone then just be open and honest about it all that way your partner can make his or her own mind up for what to do next

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CrossJess, When my wife found out about Simone, she asked, "WHAT else have you been lying to me about?" Yup, I should have told her BEFORE we got married, then she would not have felt so betrayed and devastated.

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Originally Posted by Teresa

Paula I think some wives would wish their partners were on a different planet !
Tinkerbell brings up the point about the sexual content, this is my problem. You may or may not have caught previous comments I've made on this but I've always had that close link. I have put my wife in a bit of a dilemma because she is coming to terms with my CDing and has chosen to keep the marriage together, but during our last talk we both realised and agreed that if I didn't have the constraints of CDing I would probably have had affairs. Most issues in our marriage are compatible apart from this one, we both accept she's not intersested ! I'm not sure how she feels about that but I feel rejected, I only have CDing to turn to.
I posted a thread in Loved Ones about honesty, really it doesn't come in black and white but various shades of grey ! Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth !!

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Teresa, You said, "we both realised and agreed that if I didn't have the constraints of CDing I would probably have had affairs." I never cheated on my wife, because I kept the PROMISE I made to her in our Marriage Vows, but the thought of dating another did cross my mind many times while I became Simone. I think she was a mind-reader. I miss her, still.

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Originally Posted by Lynn Marie

On reading the subject line of your post, Paula, I was quite prepared to take issue. After reading the rest of your post, I have to agree with you. I don't blame CDs wives and SOs in the least for feeling betrayed, deceived, and deathly afraid of their future married state. I've seen more than one CDer come out of the closet, get out the door, start HRT, and completely destroy their marriage. What on earth did you expect?

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Lynn Marie, I don't blame my Beautiful ex-wife one iota for feeling betrayed & deceived, because that's exactly what I did to her.

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Originally Posted by Beverley Sims

Dressing can cause a problem, but loss of trust by lying, deceit and cheating, do the most damage.

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Beverly, she never trusted me again-in any manner of what I said or where I'd been? I lost her her trust in me, thus I lost her.

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Originally Posted by Tinkerbell-GG

....Let's face it - you're throwing a bigger social spanner into a relationship than the alcoholic, cheating, bipolar dude. At least people will sympathise if you marry one of them...

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Tinkerbell, my (Jerk of a) ex-friend that I mentioned in another Thread whose wife found out he'd been Gay his entire life = hurt wife & ugly divorce was also an alcoholic, cheating, bipolar dude. Those additional undesirable behaviors just added much salt to his wife's WOUNDS.

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Originally Posted by Megan Thomas

It's certainly true to say it's a pretty extreme test of one's relationship.

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Megan, I truly tested ours & I FAILED the test. F-!
Kisses, :kiss:
Simone

Simone if anything extra-marital happened It would would have been in male mode !

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Originally Posted by Teresa

Simone if anything extra-marital happened It would would have been in male mode !

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Teresa,
Not quite right. Again, see the links @ the bottom of this website. Check out the many links for CD's wanting to 'DATE(?)' other CD's. That means they are dressed en femme, and wanting to 'hook-up' with another man (dressed en femme or not).
Kisses, :kiss:
Simone

I know it can be extremely difficult but I feel that absolute upfront honesty is the only way to build a lasting marriage and avoid all of this trouble. You might have to suffer through some very lonely years before you find someone who can love ALL of you as you are but that person is out there. I told my wife about my crossdressing before we even started dating again, we had been close friends since we were kids and didn't want to have secrets anymore. She got to see me fully dressed several times before we were married. I was terrified and she certainly had to get used to it but we worked through it together and now it's no big deal for either of us. My mannerisms do change in subtle ways but I don't need to be dressed to flip into girl mode, it just happens. At my core I am still me and she sees that.

Where ever you happen to fall on the crossdressing or transgender spectrum, this is something that is simply too big to just dump on your SO after the fact. If you are hiding such a big part of yourself from them for so long, your SO's are falling in love with a lie. That man they can't see anymore when you put on a dress never really existed anyway. Fully sharing yourself should be a key component of any truly loving relationship.

I also understand that we didn't all know exactly what we are when we were standing at the altar and many of us still don't quite know. For my own part, it was about six months into my marriage when I really started getting introspective and came to realize that I am some degree of transgender and probably always have been. However I remained honest and open through the whole process and ultimately nothing has changed. We don't keep secrets from each other. I have always been and will always remain the person she married no matter where this path takes me and she has the courage to recognize that. We have both always accepted and supported each other as we are; we've been through too much together.