Factors in Acceptance From Spouses

Recently on my blog I received an interesting question about how my wife and I are perceived in public. Both Jules (my wife) and I responded on my blog and gave our opinions on the questions. To that post I received a comment from a reader that has had me thinking ever since. Basically the comment was that the "key" factor in my wife accepting me as transgender is that my wife is bisexual (even though the post had nothing to do with my wife's acceptance of me). I responded that I thought my wife's acceptance of me is due primarily to our ability to communicate with each other. The person then responded with:

Being a bisexual or gender non-conforming wife opens your mind to non-standard relationships with transgender husbands and minimizes those reasons that wives divorce their husbands for crossdressing. I have seen this as a common trend where these relationships exist.

On the other hand, no amount of talking between them will save a marriage if the wife can not except or is not inclined towards tolerance. I have seen this too.

From what I have seen on this forum, most marriages do not end in divorce upon revealing one's gender variances. I think if we could classify them, possibly what happens most is some form of DADT. But I have read of many marriages ending but many marriages with quite accepting spouses.

So my question to any of you, how many of you that have accepting spouses attribute it to having a bisexual or gender non-conforming spouse? And how many of you attribute it to the overall relationship you and your spouse have, regardless of your spouse's gender or sexual preferences?

As a wife I am not bisexual nor am I a gender non-conforming spouse I am me, and our marriage has continued due to us both working together in the relationship which was strong to begin with. Everything, and not just to do with Nigella's transitioning is talked through together, neither of us just goes ahead and does things with talking to the other one about it, IMO this is where some go wrong in that they don't keep the other person in the loop so to speak.

To my mind the single biggest issue is the relationship itself. If the 2 parties have love and mutual respect and are truly committed to the marriage then it will be strong enough to survive these kind of challenges.
If there is distrust, a lack of respect and a lack of commitment to the marriage then it will not survive challenges.
I have blogged about this before and you can read the full article there (see my signature for the link). The article is titled 'On acceptance and appreciation' if you are interested.

Well Nadine, you and Jules met my wife and saw first hand what we are like. When we are out together with me presenting as female, we are two individuals. We've been married a long time so we get each other. When out as husband and wife, the only difference is that we hold hands and maybe kiss in public. She is no less accepting of me because she is straight and would be no more accepting if she was bi. That's just not a factor in the slightest amount. And I would bet that Jules' bisexuality is really not a factor. IF, when out in public, you two hold hands and kiss, then the bi thing would work in her and your favor but I still doubt it's any relevant factor at all. My wife and I have a long history together. We have an honest relationship. We love each other. That's it.

My sense is the person is rationalizing. I don't think there' s a hard and fast rule to be had here. But do I have evidence? No.

I have an accepting wife and I would say that the acceptance is mostly due to communication, mutual respect, and a loving relationship. Part of a loving relationship is over looking the other persons short comings, faults, weaknesses, and quirks. CD'ing being a quirk, not the other three. A loving relationship is a two way street.

My wife participates when I'm so inclined. However she has zero attraction to women. Sorry if that upsets the theory.

Interesting hypothesis. My wife and I were DADT for many years. She was born and raised in the Netherlands and comes from a very liberal family. However she is not in the least bi sexual. In our case as long as she was sexually active, she could accept me wearing panties. Actually she asked me to try on a pair of hers one night and I never went back to male underwear. However she was not attracted to me in a dress. So in our case the question might be what changed her mind about the DADT. Her response has been, that while she was active she needed the stimulus of me in a very masculine form. And believe me it was worth it because we were very very active. We are now in our 60's and due to her health problems we no longer share a bed. At that point she told me that I could dress as much as I want. She felt that since she was no longer active, it was ok for me to present female and she has no problem with it. During DADT I did not feel cheated in any way. I guess we were always able to talk about things and express our needs and desires. Communication was the key. We both respected what turned us on.
Hugs
Ellen Jo

Hi Nadine,

My wife is neither bisexual or gender non-conforming. I attribute our communication and relationship with out ability to weather this part of me.

Hugs

Isha

I can echo Isha's response.

I do know that my wife had some bi experiences earlier in her adult life. While I would agree that lends itself to a more tolerant perspective of gender variants, one cannot underestimate the value of an open mind, a kind heart and a willingness to talk through problems in a calm manner.

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Originally Posted by Gillian Gigs

I have an accepting wife and I would say that the acceptance is mostly due to communication, mutual respect, and a loving relationship. Part of a loving relationship is over looking the other persons short comings, faults, weaknesses, and quirks. CD'ing being a quirk, not the other three. A loving relationship is a two way street.

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Nailed it. It's all about communication and acceptance.

Perhaps. a bisexual wife or gf might have an additional acceptance in terms of knowing what it is like to be somewhat different.... But I would think, that a woman who is attracted to other WOMEN, would want the REAL thing, not a man dressed as a woman. I do see how it can be easier for bi sexual women in some ways, but still, I do not think it makes them more able to be attracted to us. I don't think they would seek us out due to their bi sexuality. Not being bi sexual I cannot really say, but it would just seem to me that a person who is bi would want either a man or a woman who is that and not a mixture. I could be wrong, so I guess we would need to hear from those who are that could validate or not validate the theory.

As for my wife, she is not in any way attracted to other women. Her acceptance of me is due to how I make her feel loved and cared for, period. She tries not to think much of my being transgendered, as there is nothing she can do that alters or changes it. She accepts it that it is me. She is not one who likes it, or understands it. Tolerate could be a word I suppose. From our conversations, she is looking at it as dealing with something that she does not care for, which we all have things about our partners that we do not care for, so that we can reap the rewards that having that partner give us.

When my wife and I were first married we dabbled with lingerie in the bedroom. My wearing nightgowns and hosiery was nothing more than playing with some sexual enhancement. Later, when both of us realized there was more than bedroom play progressing, my wife was turned off. There was a time in her life before I knew her that she is not proud of. She had told me of those exploits before we were married and I fully accepted her. I thought, if her issues were to resurface, we would work through them. That has been the case. She reluctantly accepted my cross dressing, but, expressed in a time of strained acceptance of it, that she wished she had not told me of her exploits. She said a non disclosure would have allowed her to end our marriage without revealing herself as hypocrite.

I think many women reject cross dressers because society would look at them as also being non-conforming. It's the old, "How can she stay married to a cross dresser? There must be something wrong with her too!"

Over the years my wife has become very tolerant and really very supportive of gays and lesbians and transsexuals. I don't think she has extended that level of tolerance to cross dressers. I think the reason for that is me! How the heck can an other wise 100% great male want to wear women's clothing? I cannot answer her question since I don't really know either.

One thing I really despise is hypocrisy. Unfortunately, being human, I have been guilty of this in the past, and probably will be in the future. I will say though, that I am less hypocritical than many, due to my dislike of it. Having said that-

I don't know that your wife is really being all that hypocritical. Yeah, that may sound weird coming from me. In my above response I am pondering the notion that someone who is bi-sexual does not have any more like of transgenderism due to their being bi-sexual. They are attracted to both, yes, but they may nbe attracted to the attributes of both masculinity and femininity, but not a combo of the two in one person. I don't feel that is hypocrisy.

I do not feel that your wife being a supporter of gay lesbian and trans people has to equate to wanting one for her to be a spouse. I do not feel that supporting a person to be of equal existence and freedom has to equate to wanting any particular person as a spouse. To me, hypocrisy would be if she was to CD and yet not allow you to, or if a person was wanting to be with both, but not allowing the other the same, should that be the case. Hypocrisy to me is a person who will take certain actions or expect certain provisions for themselves while not allowing the same for others. Or more simply stated perhaps, a certain more lenient set of rules for themselves while a stricter less lenient set of rules for others. I don't necessarily see your wife guilty of this by not being a fan of your CDing.

My experience is that acceptance by a G/F, S/O, spouse is more a function of their openness to new/different/maybe, unorthodox ideas.... rather than THEIR sexual preferences........ I've been blessed to have S/Os who accepted that I crossdress.... and none seems to "fit" the details/prescription(s) that are posed, herein..... BUT (they) were accepting of MANY ideas that might not "fit" (in the box)!!!!!!

My dear wife and I were married nearly 30 years when I told her of my nascent interest in crossdressing. Things were VERY uncomfortable for a few months following that disclosure.

In the year or so since that time, a lot has changed, and the change has been for the better. We communicate much better, we are closer, and our relationship is on solid ground once again.

Like Gillian said, I attribute this to
- Having a good relationship initially.
- Having respect for one another's feelings.
- Wanting to be better spouses.
- Accepting all of our partner's characteristics.

None of these are related to sexual or gender identity.

Best wishes
MsVal

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Originally Posted by Stephanie47

?... She said a non disclosure would have allowed her to end our marriage without revealing herself as hypocrite. ...

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I am sorry to derail Nadine's thread but this comment blew my mind. Stephanie, is this for real? Why stay married? By the way, actions are not required for hypocrisy. She is a hypocrit.

The difference between my ex-wife and non-accepting women I dated before and after was that she had friends where the husband crossdressed, she'd gone out with them to parties (husband and wife were both really attractive) and thought they had a really good relationship. So when I first mentioned that I'd crossdressed for Halloween, then that it was more than one Halloween, then more than just Halloween, she was able to relate. She never expressed any bisexual interest despite many bi and lesbian friends (from tennis) and ample opportunity (because - built).

Had your respondent said, instead, that an accepting SO believes that gender or sexual identity is a continuum rather than binary, that I'd be more likely to agree with.

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Originally Posted by Jennie-cd

My sense is the person is rationalizing. I don't think there' s a hard and fast rule to be had here. But do I have evidence? No.

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I think there are many factors involved in being accepted or not. And understand I feel that anything short of divorce constitutes some form of acceptance. So even the most vehement DADT is still not divorce.

I think there is some rationalizing going on, or at least some theorizing based upon the experiences they have been involved with or have observed. As well, I think if you have been in a situation where you have been rejected for revealing your gender variance, I am sure that no one really wants to "blame" themselves or their approach for the rejection and when it is stated that it may be the communication in the relationship it sort of implies that one may be at fault. But communication is a two-way affair and if both parties are not committed to it, it will not work.

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Originally Posted by gendermutt

But I would think, that a woman who is attracted to other WOMEN, would want the REAL thing, not a man dressed as a woman..

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My wife and I have been talking about this quite a bit recently. Being bisexual, she does indeed want the real thing. She likes both. She finds both to be stimulating. She does not really see me as a woman. Well, at least in the same way that she is turned on by a woman. It is kind of funny in that she likes women really for their naughty bits. So while I make a fairly decent looking woman, I do not have the womanly bits that she appreciates. She likes men for what men possess and women for what women possess but me dressing as a woman was difficult for her in a variety of ways. When I just did it on occasion at home, she was more inclined to say, whatever, have fun. When I began to go outside, she had a VERY difficult time with understanding it. And a VERY difficult time with being comfortable with going out with me. It wasn't like she said "oh hey, I am bisexual so yeah I love you dressing as a woman, it is in fact exactly what I have always wanted, a man dressing as a woman!" Which is what I think some picture it as. It is only through our non-stop desire to work it our through open, honest, constant communication that we have been able to survive.

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Originally Posted by Nadine Spirit

//It wasn't like she said "oh hey, I am bisexual so yeah I love you dressing as a woman, it is in fact exactly what I have always wanted, a man dressing as a woman!" //

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Tara Babcock says that's exactly what she's looking for.

I feel the biggest factor of acceptance is open, honest communication. I used to believe that being bi helped with my acceptance of my SO, but now feel that has less to do with it. We are very open about everything and I simply accept my SO for what they truly are, my best friend no matter what.

When my wife found out a few years ago she was shocked. Shocked because we had been married for 36 years. Does she like it ? No ! Does she accept it ? She accepts me for who I am ,but really doesn't understand it. Right now we have a DADT relationship and we don't really talk about it. Things probably would've been better if I hadn't pushed the "envelope " so to speak when she was trying to come to grips. As far as I know she has no bi tendencies,although at times I have to admit to being a little bi curious.

Nadine,
I'm totally hetro but my CDing needs are to share with a woman sexually !
On one occasion my wife declared that it wasn't going to happen, she wasn't a lesbian ! My reply was neither am I !
What my wife values in trying to keep our marriage intact is retaining what we've worked for financially so our children get the full benefit ! At the moment she will tolerate my CDing, she knows she doesn't have the man she married but that works both ways, I would like to think love comes into it but I'm not holding my breath !

My wife might be a rare breed, but to her clothes don't change gender. She tells me sometimes I'm a guy in pants and sometimes I'm a guy in a dress. In either I'm still a guy, and she's still a girl. So, there is no problem.

I fully accept my SO and I have from the onset. I am not bisexual.

I think the degree of acceptance is proportional to many factors: when the wife/girlfriend finds out (while in the throes of new love, or after 20 years of marriage), whether it is a first or second relationship, whether there are young children at home, how connected is the couple to begin with, whether the wife/girlfriend has conservative religious views, where they live (urban vs. rural, and some cities/counties are more progressive than others), how much the wife/girlfriend has traveled (she has met a wide variety of people), and I'm sure other things that don't come to mind at the moment.

I also want to say that I know two bisexual women. Each one has been in long term monogamous relationships with men and women, not just a dalliance or two with same-sex while in college. One of them was in a lesbian relationship with another woman for 10 years and she is now married to a man. The other is single at the moment, but has been in 1-2 year relationships with one or the other. Anyway, they both told me the same thing: although they embrace the idea that everyone should present in a manner that feels good to them, they are not personally attracted to people who gender-bend. Being bisexual does not guarantee an attraction to feminine males or masculine women. Oh, and a third bisexual GG that I know fell in love online with a newly transitioned, MtF TS. This TS moved here and they were married. They divorced two years later. The GG is now in a relationship with another GG.

Personally I think that sexuality is a minor influence in marriages staying together with transitioned partners. I think it mostly has to do with how well the couple communicate and as you said Nadine, how connected they are to start with.

I think there is also an underlying issue in couples staying together through transition and that is the lack of support and encouragement both in society and within our community for those who wish to stay together, in particular a lack of support for the partner of the trans individual. There is plenty of support if that partner does not wish to stay with the trans person and even here on these forums I think there is an unconscious bias towards legitimising partners separating in the face of CD'ing or transition. In no way am I trying to blame partners who struggle with this really, but when a partner consciously decides and says "stuff it, I don't care what society, my family etc. thinks, I love this person and we will face it together and STAY together" then they are met with lots of platitudes of "oh you are very brave" and "that's such a sacrifice you are making" that seem to imply that their life from then on is doomed to being less than what it could be if only they had married someone normal. I'm not saying it is a bed of roses being married to someone who is trans but there is beauty in this that can and should be celebrated. Trans individuals in our community are also not immune to this with individuals swamped with albeit well meaning but nevertheless fairly negative advice of "be prepared to lose everything when you transition".

I think if we could provide encouragement and yes, positive support for partners and for those who are trans to varying degrees then we hopefully can have more couples who stay together. Let's face it, they are going to receive plenty of "negative" support from the general community so do we really need to reinforce this?

There is not one answer that fits every spouse. However, in my own experience, I think that being a crossdresser makes me more open to the sexual identity issues of others. I believe that in most cases, we are either born gay or straight and it is not a choice. Sure, environment can influence people to be gay or straight but only if there are some tendencies that they are already born with. This is one area where we must be tolerant. I just don't believe that you choose your sexual identity.
So, if you have an accepting spouse, it can be because you have a very good relationship but her upbringing could also be a factor or her own sexual identity could also be a factor or her experiences with other transgender/gay people could be a factor.
Sheri

My wife is neither bisexual or gender non-conforming. Actually, I can't see how a person could be bisexual and in a monogamous marriage. To be married, one has to "settle down" to sex with a single partner, whatever gender that partner may be.

Having said that, relationships are complicated. Love has a lot to do with it of course, but there is often a dependency, especially after many years together. How many of us would break up a thirty or forty year marriage and go looking to start dating again?

So in my marriage there are mutually understood boundaries. The neighbors, friends and family cannot know. That's fine with me, I don't want to have to deal with it either.

Krisi, of course you can be bisexual and monogamous. A heterosexual man may like brunette and blonde women in different ways, or he may like women with both big and small breasts in different ways. When you commit to one person you commit to that person. Sure you may be tempted by something new or different, some may submit to that temptation others not. This is true of everyone regardless of their sexuality. It does not invalidate their ability to marry or be monogamous if that is what they choose. Not all marriages for that matter or monogamous. Sone or 'open' others are polyamorous, polygamous etc.

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Originally Posted by Krisi

Actually, I can't see how a person could be bisexual and in a monogamous marriage. To be married, one has to "settle down" to sex with a single partner, whatever gender that partner may be.

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Bisexual means the capacity to be in a relationship with either a male or a female. It doesn't mean both at the same time as in cheating on a partner, no matter the partner's sex.

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Originally Posted by Adina

... but when a partner consciously decides and says "stuff it, I don't care what society, my family etc. thinks, I love this person and we will face it together and STAY together" then they are met with lots of platitudes of "oh you are very brave" and "that's such a sacrifice you are making" that seem to imply that their life from then on is doomed to being less than what it could be if only they had married someone normal.

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"Less than"? I have not been faced with a transitioning partner, so my gut reaction to the GGs who stay the course (with MtFs) is rather, "Good for you!" ... not to imply their lives are somehow less than mine, but as an acknowledgment they have discovered they CAN maintain a romantic relationship with a same-sex partner. Not everyone can do this, many GGs are turned off the idea of being with another woman. It's not a remark on how brave or loyal these SOs are, it's an observation on their flexibility because I don't know if I could be so flexible.

I'm guessing this is where most people come from, when they make comments to the spouses of transitioners. They try to imagine, as best they can, how they themselves would react under the circumstances which is difficult to do unless one is actually there.

I'm inclined to agree with some of Reine ' s thoughts. My wife can tolerate me, and has gone out with me in public. But as far as romantic intimacy, is dead against me dressed. We would probably have an issue if I were to go full time, and definitely split on transition. My wife is really turned off by the idea of being with a female. So it depends on what your definition of acceptance includes.

I don't think there is much correlation between bisexuality and attraction to TGs. My LTR girlfriend before I got married the second time was bisexual and I can guarantee that the only reason she was attracted to me was because I was in one of my denial, over-compensating, ultra-masculine phases. Even the women she was attracted to were anything but girly-girly. She liked women that were rather plain, no makeup, jeans and t-shirts and athletic - think Linda Hamilton in T2. She was totally gay for that girl. I think that being a top/bottom or dominant/submissive is just as important or maybe more important than so-called sexual orientation. My ex-GF was a bottom all the way so any sign of "femininity" in the traditional sense was a turn-off to her. On the other hand, my wife has no attraction to women but is not turned off by my feminine presentation.