still "my guy" underneath. Is it really?

[Carly D.]

The closest I come is girlish.. at the my highest I would say I was over fifty percent girlish.. but more now that I am moving away from being able to dress very often, I am so much less girlish that I feel like I am just a guy who likes to wear womens clothes without the need to dress full to that end of the spectrum.. to each their own as far as what they feel and look.. or look to achieve that feeling of being.. is that a tuna or herring.. anyway it all reads the same from here.. a nods as good as a wink to a bat..

[tinalynn]

[SIZE="3"]

Do you realize you are asking your partner to deny your relationship, her affection for you and your bond while in public?[/SIZE]

Sorry you feel that way, I didn't mean to offend. I was merely replying to the OP about how I feel when dressed and what I would prefer. How my wife and I show affection towards each other is our business, not yours, not the states. I agree with your fight to legalize and hope the best for you.

[DemonicDaughter]

[SIZE="3"]

Sorry you feel that way, I didn't mean to offend. I was merely replying to the OP about how I feel when dressed and what I would prefer. How my wife and I show affection towards each other is our business, not yours, not the states. I agree with your fight to legalize and hope the best for you.

I didn't take it as any offense in the least. I don't think its anybody's business who shows affection to whom as long as its all consensual. I merely think its sad that anyone would have to deny their relationship because of how they identify.[/SIZE]

[sissystephanie]

My Tag line says it very plainly!! I was born a Man, and unless there is some serious surgery involved sometime, I will die a man! That surgery is not, and will not be, planned! I wear feminine clothes because I enjoy doing so, not because of any desire to be a woman!

Clothes do not a man or woman make! We are what we are! My late wife knew what I was underneath everything, and was happy about that!!

[Joann0830]

I am the same man, in a skirt and heels, or cargo pants and work boots. I have the same feelings, needs, and desires, no matter what I am wearing. I have one personality, but with many facets. Dressing doesn't affect my manhood, if anything, it keeps me in tune with it. I don't put on a persona while dressed, because I am me, dressed, drab, or naked. There is only enough room in my head for one person.

I have to agree with Ashley as I would have responded the same way, The clothes dont change who I am, I have the same feelings, needs, and desires, no matter what I am wearing, I have been like this since I was 6 or 7 and have a life and enjoy it and still enjoying it. To make it short If I have to say that I am different because of what I wear, then should I question when a woman wears mens jeans and mens work boots, and young girls and woman who wear mens boxers, or when they wear their Fathers or their husbands or boyfriends Dress white shirts are they also crossdressers. Joann0830

[ReineD]

I never really have been the guy she thinks she knows, either. It does not matter how I am dressed.
...
But that has been a belief that she has clung onto, of her own making.
...
I really have disliked this belief she has, because it does not accept the complete / whole me.
...
It is not just about the cloths for me. But thinking it is is easier for her.

Wow. I understand what you are saying. You are not the guy your wife takes you to be and this must be frustrating. You know who you are since you've been living inside your skin all your life, but your wife has only two reference points: male or female. See my response below to NDBT ... maybe in the not too distant future, it will be easier for TGs to be able to tell their prospective wives that they feel uncomfortable always being in the male gender role. Then the GGs can decide if this is what they want.

If that is the case, isn't it unfair to the GG that she doesn't know the real person? She can't change who she is anymore than you can and she needs to be put straight and corrected. Does that make sense?

Yes it does make sense. Hopefully the more forums we have like this one, the more TGs will get to know themselves early. They will be able to share this with prospective partners (not just about wearing the clothes, but more importantly how they see their gender roles). And again hopefully as the result of having more openness all around with TGs coming out of their closets, there will be more realistic expectations and there will be more and more GGs who will not expect TGs to behave according to an image they have of what a man should be.

Or, maybe there will be just as many GGs who cannot be in relationships with effeminate GMs, but at least they will know in the beginning and they will have the option to move on.

But keep in mind, NDBT that every TG is at a different place along the continuum and your partner's image of himself as a male may match yours!

Do I treat him as I always do when we go out while his is in drab or do I have to act differently? Am I insulting him by treating him as I normally would? Thanks for your reply.

I would treat him exactly the same as it pertains to the things you talk about, the way you joke around, the decisions you make together, showing affection, the way you relate to one another privately, etc. The only difference I can think of would be to call him by his femme name if he has one. Although he might not expect you to open doors for him at all, it might be nice if you would once in awhile. Also he will likely appreciate compliments about his look much more so than in guy mode.

[SIZE="3"]
Standing up for who you are, whether you pass, whether you are gay, whether you are in dress or whatever the circumstances is what helps earn your rights as a person and helps establish and/or keep those rights for others.[/SIZE]

I agree DD it would be ideal if everyone could do this fully as you describe, but not everyone is at the same point. Standing up for one CD may simply be to garner enough courage to tell her wife. For another, it may be gaining enough confidence to go out to a TG support group for the first time. For someone else it may be going out in the mainstream and not saying a word to eventually be able to speak to lots of people, thus losing their fear of being 'found out' and letting them know they are TG. Still, this is one on one and somewhat safe.

But to hold hands with a GG in public will gather lots of attention. And it is likely the GG will not want to do this either, at least not in the beginning of the relationship. It may take years for them to be able to get to that point.

If each person can pledge to stretch themselves according to where they're at, they are doing their part IMO but lots of baby steps must be taken before being completely free and out to everyone (if that is the goal). Some CDs assess their co-workers, families, some friends, etc and determine it would be difficult for them to live with one day being femme and another day in guy mode.

I do agree TSs have an advantage there though. Living with 24/7 certainly makes it easier to stand up and be counted. Still, some TSs have lost a great many relationships and it is very lonely and painful.

[Satrana]

Well the guy side of a CD does remain unchanged, the issue is that the guy side was only ever half of the personality and has maybe been artificially skewed somewhat to fit in with gender expectations. Elements of the femme side do leak through into the guy mode, but not in sufficient amounts that it becomes obvious what is going on.

The CD is at pains to keep the two sides of his personality separate from each other. It is like holding apart two parts of a magnet. There is a natural force that wants the two parts to join together but the resulting whole is deemed unacceptable by society. Because of the constant exertion to keep the two parts separate, CDs become overly focused and sensitive to the different gender roles and make a big fuss over it.

The guy is still there but most CDs, when dressed, the guy side is placed on the back burner and the femme side comes out to play often in an exaggerated fun-loving manner. Obviously from the outside it can appear that the CD has changed into someone else but it really is the same personality which has been artificially split apart into two camps in order to fit in with societal expectations.

This is not a healthy or wise thing to do. I believe CDs should stop fighting the natural desire to fuse together back into a whole person at least in private environments.

For SOs the big problem after dealing with the shock and unsettling feelings of abnormality, is to understand the duality their partner has had to cultivate to fit in and not to allow their traditional gender conditioning to cloud their perceptions of their "man".

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I really have disliked this belief she has, because it does not accept the complete / whole me.

I've seen this sentiment in a few different posts lately, like the one where the OP was concerned that his wife wasn't using his girl name when he was dressed, and did that mean she didn't accept him.

I wonder if in some way, some of us are almost happier feeling like we aren't accepted, or at the very least, are so used to feeling like we're going to be shunned or unaccepted that we'd prefer to think we are when we aren't. So even when someone is actually being very supportive, we just assume they're not really.

[DemonicDaughter]

[SIZE="3"]

I agree DD it would be ideal if everyone could do this fully as you describe, but not everyone is at the same point. Standing up for one CD may simply be to garner enough courage to tell her wife. For another, it may be gaining enough confidence to go out to a TG support group for the first time. For someone else it may be going out in the mainstream and not saying a word to eventually be able to speak to lots of people, thus losing their fear of being 'found out' and letting them know they are TG. Still, this is one on one and somewhat safe.

What "point" do they need to be at to stand up for themselves?

Standing up for yourself, doesn't mean you have to stand up as a CDer. Merely as a human being or as a partner. The point of that particular statement isn't in regards to CDing specifically. It means that if you believe in what you are doing, you shouldn't be ashamed or embarrassed by it. That stands for far more than CDing, I was attempting to encourage someone to be proud of whom they are and to see CDing as only a facet to that.

You don't have to march on Washington to make a statement.

I'm not making some big political statement here and telling everyone they have to shout it from the roof tops. As a matter of fact, I'm saying NOT to! I don't think you have to make ANY fuss about it, just don't back down from what you believe in. And don't be so scared to be who you are that you push your loved ones away.

Just having the courage to be yourself is a statement. Just allowing your partner to decide FOR HERSELF if she wants to be there and hold your hand. To just stop living in fear and learning to accept yourself. You don't even have to leave the house, but you also don't have to fear yourself.

I'm well aware the levels involved in telling people about gender identity. I don't think encouraging people to have confidence should always be met with opposition in explaining not everyone can be that way. I don't think it needs to constantly be followed by a disclosure about everyone's abilities to do so. I think people are going to take baby steps either way unless they feel differently. So I didn't think to add that to my post.

But to hold hands with a GG in public will gather lots of attention. And it is likely the GG will not want to do this either, at least not in the beginning of the relationship. It may take years for them to be able to get to that point.

I had already stated that a GG may not want that kind of attention to begin with in my first post in this thread.

I also believe it should be left of to HER to decide.

I do agree TSs have an advantage there though. Living with 24/7 certainly makes it easier to stand up and be counted. Still, some TSs have lost a great many relationships and it is very lonely and painful.

I don't think TS have it any easier. A CDer can take off the clothes and go back to boy mode. Many TS cannot once they have started establishing a life as a full time woman. They cannot just tell their friends and family, "oh... I changed my mind again, I am going back to being male." I don't think any one group has it easier or harder than the other. Just different.[/SIZE]

[KayC]

I want to make the point that not everyone lives in the same sort of place. We need to remember that some are in the beginning of all this, still learning, processing, while some are further down the road. And some live in small communities, very conservative, and some are in large cities, more liberal, some are brave, some are scared, ...we aren't all dealt exactly the same situation. We all have to make the right choice for us at that time...knowing that it could change down the road.

[ReineD]

It is like holding apart two parts of a magnet. There is a natural force that wants the two parts to join together but the resulting whole is deemed unacceptable by society. Because of the constant exertion to keep the two parts separate, CDs become overly focused and sensitive to the different gender roles and make a big fuss over it.

This is not a healthy or wise thing to do. I believe CDs should stop fighting the natural desire to fuse together back into a whole person at least in private environments.

Very well said!!! And to expand: in my statement above I suggested that TGs become open enough so that GGs meeting these TGs will in their hearts know that their potential partners do not fit within a previously defined traditional male gender role. I also suggested the GG could make up her mind early on whether she wants to move on from the relationship rather than insist on hanging on to her vision that her TG partner should behave according to her preconceived gender views.

Reading back I see that I did not express my point very well. It came off as saying that even with education, GGs are hard-wired to expect traditional gender role behaviors from their male partners and anything that is on a different plane is undesirable.

If the CDing or being transgendered is removed from the issue entirely, most couples over time fall into comfortable roles together where they balance their individual strengths and weaknesses. The husband might be the partner who has an affinity for gourmet cooking and his wife is thrilled to give him reign to the kitchen. Or to the husband's glee, the wife may be the one who is detail-minded and will take on the task of paying the bills and maintaining their financial records, or she may be the partner who loves to work with her hands and be the designated home-repair person. This happens all the time and it is not even questioned among couples. In how many marriages is it the husband who is the more sentimental of the two or the wife who prefers to play competitive sports?

But, when you put the transgender spin to it all then it seems as if gender roles are brought under the microscope and each partner's strengths and weaknesses are questioned to see where they may fall short of traditional expectations. I don't know why this happens. So in my point earlier I meant to suggest that couples beginning a relationship should move beyond taking about the degree of public or private femme expression which is comfortable to each of them, and more importantly they should also discuss their intended gender roles and expectations.

It means that if you believe in what you are doing, you shouldn't be ashamed or embarrassed by it. And don't be so scared to be who you are that you push your loved ones away.

I totally agree! And I know that you and I share similar views and some things are so obvious it seems unnecessary to say them. The bit about being along different points of development and taking baby steps was not meant for you, but more for the newer members reading this thread. My writing was under your quote and I apologize if it came off as a lecture to you.

I don't think TS have it any easier. A CDer can take off the clothes and go back to boy mode. Many TS cannot once they have started establishing a life as a full time woman. They cannot just tell their friends and family, "oh... I changed my mind again, I am going back to being male." I don't think any one group has it easier or harder than the other. Just different.

No, TSs don't have it any easier. In fact I think it is a lonelier, more difficult road. What I meant was that living 24/7 makes it impossible to hide the transness and there is no question that this person is out there showing the world who she is. 'Easier' was used in the context of not having to make a decision daily as to how much of the inner self to show to the world. The decision is made by default, by having made the decision to transition ... (even though the initial decision is of course not an easy one to make).

[tinalynn]

Wow... A simple statement about what I would prefer should my wife and I ever go out dressed has been turned into me denying our relationship, pushing her away, and not letting her decide how to act. Nothing like pushing your own morals and value system on others, eh?

DD, good luck finding what you're looking for, but please disregard my posts from here out. I'll do the same with yours...

[DemonicDaughter]

[SIZE="3"]

Wow... A simple statement about what I would prefer should my wife and I ever go out dressed has been turned into me denying our relationship, pushing her away, and not letting her decide how to act. Nothing like pushing your own morals and value system on others, eh?

DD, good luck finding what you're looking for, but please disregard my posts from here out. I'll do the same with yours...

My last few posts haven't been in regards to you or your views. They were specifically towards the person I was quoting. All I expressed was how it sounded from an outside source and how sad it is in this day and age that people have to hide specific factors of their lives. Everything else was pretty much a general statement not specifically aimed towards you.

In truth I was hoping to be far more encouraging by saying you should be proud of who and what you are and don't let it be so frightening about being read. The internet is great for losing the nuances needed for most things to be conveyed correctly.

Besides, if I really stated my views or were trying to shove them down anyone's throat, my posts would have been deleted by a mod by now. I no sooner believe you to take my advice than you would a stock tip from a homeless man.

Ah, well I try. So much for hoping people find their inner strength.[/SIZE]

[Joanne f]

Cross dressing is a complicated subject as there are so many different variants so it is not an exact science, but if you make a rough scale say from the male side being most dominant and only CDing occasionally (then the my guy will still be there) now go to the other end when you are CDing 24/7 and the "my guy will not be there, so it would stand to reason that there is a middle point where things are neutral in which case nether will be dominant.
So all you have to do is to figure out where you are on that scale and that should tell you how much of "my guy is still there .

(i must point out that this is just my impression of things which is no doubt crap so don`t take it to serious)

[Satrana]

But, when you put the transgender spin to it all then it seems as if gender roles are brought under the microscope and each partner's strengths and weaknesses are questioned to see where they may fall short of traditional expectations. I don't know why this happens.

Yes this is a big bugbear for me. What wife would despair at her husband if he was to take on the lion's share of housework but if she discovers the reason why he is willing - ie he is a CD - then she gets angry and confused. Or how many wives would think it a big deal if she found out her husband had a fetish for stockings, but if his interest in stockings is because he is a CD then many will refuse to allow the behavior to continue.

As soon as the TG nature is introduced any and all variations away from the gender normative suddenly become major issues. And this is not because the SO is knowledgeable about the issues and pitfalls surrounding CDing, that wisdom comes later after the fact, rather it is the overwhelming negative stigma that changes the context of the behavior.

It seems the label crossdresser is interchangable with words like pervert, weirdo, deviant etc. Irrelevant quirks are instantly transformed into undesirable traits. People are overly ready to focus on the headline rather than take time to understand what it means and how much/little this changes their relationship and whether it will be better or worse off.

If I wear a kilt, the Scottish ladies think I am sexy. If I wear a tartan skirt then I am undesirable......? How would a woman know what I am feeling when I wear a kilt? Why is a skirt automatically considered so demeaning?

There is so much cultural baggage involved that common sense gets left behind.

It came off as saying that even with education, GGs are hard-wired to expect traditional gender role behaviors from their male partners and anything that is on a different plane is undesirable.

I actually believe there is some truth to this point. Gender roles are so ingrained that no matter how much you intellectually understand the issues, deep down certain behaviors can still grind against entrenched ideas of normality. Some stains do not come out no matter how many times you wash. This is particularly true for men whose gender roles have not been publically explored and debated by a masculine movement so stereotypes remain intact.