The Honesty Conundrum

[lesley jay]

its a tricky question and touchy based on some of the responses.i kept my cding a secret for approx 28 years before telling my wife and during that period of secrecy it was hell at times,nobody to talk to,nobody to answer questions,at times i thought that my head would be no longer capable of handling it and that i was going insane.when i told my wife and 4 close female freinds it was such a relief to have somebody to talk to,shop with etc,i now wish i had told them many years ago.when it comes to kids,parents and freinds they have not been told and that will remain,yep i would love to tell them,but take my kids 4 example they would be ridaculed at school for having two mommies,proberly bullied,i would not put them through that.some people may differ but they are my views,i think this is a debate that i could write a book on but i dont have the time or space on this site.in a nutshell i am happy with things the way they are at present with my situation,taking baby steps i guess.have a great weekend ladies.

[battybattybats]

Uncompromising ethics are the bane of man.

Who said anything about uncompromising?
And your mentioning the word bane is going to have those who know me laughing a lot. As it's rather close to my birth-name.

Personally, I find this whole argument irrelevant because I reject the premise that there is an obligation for the CD to tell his partner in the first instance.

Wells ee that there is a really important point. The crucial IF at the very beginning! Unless that first IF is true then the rest ends up false. Which is a very valid interpretation of the idea!

So the ethics involved here is about how a decision was reached on whether to reveal the CD behavior. There is no obligation.

But aren't there reasons a person has a disclosure obligation? Like having an STD needing to be disclosed before sex?

Included in that decision making matrix, should be the moral issue of educating the public and tackling transphobia. However understandably private relationships will be prioritized.

But doesn't the gene found suggest that there is need to make the world more TG friendly for the sake of children and childrens children? Doesn't it make overcoming transphobia part of protecting our own familes (mine too, I still have cousins!)

Edit: for those concerned about harm to the children if parent is out, might I suggest we consider that some will experience this already anyway? That there are TS parents, Intersex parents like blogger Zoe Brain and TG kids too. Looking at TYFA's group for kids of TG parents might be an idea.

[Deborah Jane]

Personally, I find this whole argument irrelevant because I reject the premise that there is an obligation for the CD to tell his partner in the first instance.

On that point i have to disagree entirely!

If you are planning to spend the rest of your life with someone, then surely she has the right to expect total honesty from you regarding something like crossdressing, which could affect whether or not she would want to spend her life with you!!
Also, by the same token, i would expect total honesty from my life partner if she did something that could affect my decision to want to spend the rest of my life with her!

I think being honest about the major issues before committing yourself to and expecting honesty from your partner before she expects you to commit to her, would save a lot of problems later on in most long term relationships!!

Every day we all make judgement calls on how much to tell each and every person we meet.

I agree, each such person should be told as much as we deem relevant in our relationship with them and as to how much it could affect that particular relationship.
Most people i know in my life i would never tell, there is no reason to tell them and with many it would have a negative impact on our relationship if i did.
But by the same token, if i was planning to spend the rest of my life with someone, i would try to be totally honest from the start and would expect the same in return!

[battybattybats]

Most people i know in my life i would never tell, there is no reason to tell them and with many it would have a negative impact on our relationship if i did.

But by the same token, if i was planning to spend the rest of my life with someone, i would try to be totally honest from the start and would expect the same in return!

But wouldn't telling an SO before making a life commitment involve the same risk?

and wouldn't waiting for her to be in love enough that your both ready to make that committment be bieng already unfair if honesty up-front is important?

Also, you suggest you have no reason to tell anyone else.. but consider these points. (and by WE i mean both CDs and GGs too)

* if we are the ones to most know transphobia exists and we do nothing, aren't we then most responsible for it's continued existence? and the suffering others will endure?

* if transphobia is the main reason people aren't told up front and we do nothing to stop it aren't we partly responsible for other wives not being told from the start?

* if transphobia causes a 50% suicide attempt rate and we are the ones with the most power to stop it and dont arent we responsible for the deaths?

* if the TS gene or one or more like it is the cause of CDing doesnt that mean that not trying to reduce or stop transphobia is negligence to our families?

Now I certainly don't suggest coming out is the only way to resolve those points... but as we are the ones who right now are most aware of these issues, are we not then the ones respobsible for them?

[Sheila]

* if we are the ones to most know transphobia exists and we do nothing, aren't we then most responsible for it's continued existence? and the suffering others will endure?

* if transphobia is the main reason people aren't told up front and we do nothing to stop it aren't we partly responsible for other wives not being told from the start?

* if transphobia causes a 50% suicide attempt rate and we are the ones with the most power to stop it and dont arent we responsible for the deaths?

* if the TS gene or one or more like it is the cause of CDing doesnt that mean that not trying to reduce or stop transphobia is negligence to our families?

Now I certainly don't suggest coming out is the only way to resolve those points... but as we are the ones who right now are most aware of these issues, are we not then the ones respobsible for them?

Batty do you mean trans phobia or internalised transphobia, as GG's by your own admission cannot have internalized Transphobia?

At the end of the day A PHOBIA IS AN IRRATIONAL FEAR ...................... it is perfectly possible to actualy dislike a TRANS PERSON without actually being TRANSHPOBIC or is that too difficult for you to understand ............... I am by Birth a SCOT .............. I do not like all SCOTS .................. that does not make me A SCOTOPHOBIC SAVVY

[Shelly Preston]

But wouldn't telling an SO before making a life commitment involve the same risk?

and wouldn't waiting for her to be in love enough that your both ready to make that committment be bieng already unfair if honesty up-front is important?

There is a huge difference as it needs to be said for a lifelong commitment . The risk of telling later or getting found out could be extremely unpleasant

Also, you suggest you have no reason to tell anyone else.. but consider these points. (and by WE i mean both CDs and GGs too)

* if we are the ones to most know transphobia exists and we do nothing, aren't we then most responsible for it's continued existence? and the suffering others will endure?

* if transphobia is the main reason people aren't told up front and we do nothing to stop it aren't we partly responsible for other wives not being told from the start?

* if transphobia causes a 50% suicide attempt rate and we are the ones with the most power to stop it and dont arent we responsible for the deaths?

* if the TS gene or one or more like it is the cause of CDing doesnt that mean that not trying to reduce or stop transphobia is negligence to our families?

Now I certainly don't suggest coming out is the only way to resolve those points... but as we are the ones who right now are most aware of these issues, are we not then the ones respobsible for them?

There are and awful lot of if's in that statment

You can also fight transphobia without coming out as you say but I dont see how we can be responsible just because something exists

We may have a duty to do what we can to eliminate it but thats not quite the same thing

[battybattybats]

Batty do you mean trans phobia or internalised transphobia, as GG's by your own admission cannot have internalized Transphobia?

Both! One creates the other. Both are merely part of the same phenomena.

At the end of the day A PHOBIA IS AN IRRATIONAL FEAR

No it's not! Thats only classical phobias. The terms Xenophobia, homophobia and transphobia are different http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobia#...discrimination please follow that link.

...................... it is perfectly possible to actualy dislike a TRANS PERSON without actually being TRANSHPOBIC or is that too difficult for you to understand

I'm aware of that. But have you looked into the evidence of subtle unconcious biases on all forms of discrimination since I last mentioned it? Transphobia takes many forms not just hatred or disgust at all TG people. For example with race many people considered they were not racist as they got on well with black men and women so long as they weren't 'uppity' or in other words as assertive as they would accept in a white person but viewed differently from a black person. Same where women are still often disliked in the workplace for showing the same qualities admired in men in the workplace.

Often we are unaware of such double-standards we experience or perpetuate.

There is a huge difference as it needs to be said for a lifelong commitment .

In degree yes, but principle? robbing a million dollers is not the same as 100 but we consider them both theft because they both involve stealing. Right has degrees but each degree still works on and is right because of the same principle, same with wrong.

The risk of telling later or getting found out could be extremely unpleasant

Yes! Which is why i told about a week or so from the first date with my ex-girlfriend. However there is HUGE risk any time you tell if your closeted! If they freak out and out you it risks all your friendships and family relationships instantly without having the time to prepare how to tell them.. you place a massive trust when telling anyone when deeply closeted!

And waiting till your sure you can trust them (and you can always be mistaken!) likely means they will feel hurt you didnt tell them earlier.

Either way it's a gamble involving tremendous risk unless the CD is prepared to be totally outed from the start!

There are and awful lot of if's in that statment

Yes but they are if/then logic ifs, not normal ifs. Do you think any of the IFs are not true? Do you disagree with any of the THENs when you agree with the IFs or even if you just assume the IFs are true for the sake of examining the idea of the THEN?

You can also fight transphobia without coming out as you say but I dont see how we can be responsible just because something exists

It's because we have the choice to act or not act. Whenever someone has a choice they become responsible for the predictable consequences of that choice. Even when the choice is to do nothing.

If we can swim well and a child who cannot is drowning in front of us and we turn away and do nothing we choose the childs death. Certainly that's so right?

Well we are the ones who most know this problem exists and we are the ones who can try and do something about it. Each of those, the knowledge and the power that others in the community don't have means we are the ones best equipped to change social transphobia to reduce the internalised transphobia that kills people.

The person with the choice and power to change the situation is the one responsible for changing it. And by not doing so they become more responsible than those who act on it who don't know any better!

[Shelly Preston]

Either way it's a gamble involving tremendous risk unless the CD is prepared to be totally outed from the start!

Is being totally outed from the start not a tremendous risk as well

It seems to me that can be more of a risk due to the fact some groups take a dislike to people just because the dont fit with there idea of normal

That has nothing to do with transphobia because they dont just pick on a particular group . They just chose those who are different

[Karren H]

Lucky for me I'm a person of low moral fiber... And some of my best friends are liers and cheats... So I have no moral conundrum about not telling someone something that would hurt them...

And since no one ever asked me. Straight out "Are you a crossdresser" then I have never dishonstly replied about my hobby..

[Lorileah]

How's this for a new take, the earlier you come out to people around you the quicker you can move on to find new friends IF the old ones drop you or party with the ones who accept you. Then you won't be worried about losing friends for such a long time. Life is short, most people's memories are shorter when it comes to something like this.

Take the hit, move on. Or to put it in Karren's vernacular Take the hit, if you get caught serve your 2 minutes and then skate on. Usually you score soon after

[Tamara Croft]

At the end of the day A PHOBIA IS AN IRRATIONAL FEAR

No it's not! Thats only classical phobias. The terms Xenophobia, homophobia and transphobia are different http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobia#...discrimination please follow that link.

Just because wiki says that, does not make it right. We can all find answers with different opinions about something, it doesn't take rocket science to use google and start pasting links.

According to answers.com

Xenophobia

People who have an irrational fear or hatred of foreigners ironically suffer from a condition whose name is composed of two Greek words, xenos and phobos.

Homophobia

An irrational fear or intolerance of homosexuality, or behaviour that is perceived to uphold and support traditional gender role expectations.

According to trans-academics.org

Transphobia

The irrational fear of those who are gender diverse and/or the inability to deal with gender ambiguity.

So, instead of constantly telling people they are wrong, use that intellect of yours and research things properly.

[Lorileah]

Just wondering, are there rational fears? I guess dying after jumping off the Empire State build would be a rational fear wouldn't it. Or would it be a guarantee?

Fear of being bitten by a rattlesnake seems like a rational fear so it wouldn't be a phobia. OPHIDIOPHOBIA is the fear of all snakes which would be irrational but Crotalusphobia (if there is one) seems to be rational for most people. So can a phobia be rational?

And why is it ironic that two Greek words form a word? Technically the Greeks who formed the word were not strangers or foreigners. It is interesting but not ironic.

And why do I sound like Andy Rooney?

[battybattybats]

Is being totally outed from the start not a tremendous risk as well

I thought I covered that. That any time someone closeted risks being outted there is risk.

Unless you mean being out from the start rather than out-ed?

In which case with friends and family you have the luxery of telling them in your own way, of trying to build up, drop hints, prepare, practice with friends before coming out to family etc. And it gives you more time to find new accepting friends if you lose them, the same argument about coming out to an SO early gives both more time to find someone more truly compatable no?

However unless you work for the big companies with gender expression on their anti-discrimination rules it can still be bad for career.. a good reason for everyone to fight for enda who is not out in case one day they are outted by accident.

It seems to me that can be more of a risk due to the fact some groups take a dislike to people just because the dont fit with there idea of normal

Dont I know it!
I have lots of personal experience there! I took punches to the face to make Goth acceptable in public! And public violence against the different was more acceptable in the late 80's and 90's Australia. Any difference was labeled 'poofta'. However violent attacks on Goths are rare now. Because lots of Goths are out.

That has nothing to do with transphobia because they dont just pick on a particular group . They just chose those who are different

Well thats only sort-of true, as everyone is different somehow and those groups choose parameters they accept and those they don't often in ranges at that.

And most conformists have something to hide anayway, like most homophobes are repressed gays. And bigots can have intersections of bigotry just as oppressed people can have intersections of discrimination against them.

For certain just looking at the TDOR list there's a lot less whites than a proper equal split per proportion of the polpulation. so they suffer Racism + Transphobia and they make up most, not all but most, of those at risk.

And doesn't that just add more responsibility to the white TG people who can be out safer to help the non-white ones who are more at risk?

Edit to avoid double-post:

Just because wiki says that, does not make it right.

True but it doesn't make it wrong either!

We can all find answers with different opinions about something, it doesn't take rocket science to use google and start pasting links.

According to answers.com

The problem in this case isn't source. Yours backs me up also. Rechanging the emphasis of bold text:

Xenophobia

People who have an irrational fear or hatred of foreigners ironically suffer from a condition whose name is composed of two Greek words, xenos and phobos.

Homophobia

An irrational fear or intoleranceof homosexuality, or behaviour that is perceived to uphold and support traditional gender role expectations.

According to trans-academics.org

Transphobia

The irrational fear of those who are gender diverse and/or the inability to deal with gender ambiguity.

There's a lot of meaning in the word 'or'.
Intolerance and 'deal with' can include subtle levels, just like racism and sexism.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...sult&resnum=10 whole chapters of etext evidence for you there on unconcious sexism which corollates with unconcious homophobia and unconcious transphobia.

Lets cut straight to homophobia and transphobia with some detail now shall we? http://www.uoguelph.ca/hre/hr/docs/R...terosexism.pdf

Homophobia and transphobia can range from discomfort and fear to disgust, hatred and violence, and are manifested in four different ways:

1. Personal or internalized homophobia/transphobia consists of personal beliefs and prejudices.

2. Interpersonal homophobia/transphobia (harassment and individual discrimination) involves individual behaviours based on those personal beliefs.

3. Institutional homophobia/transphobia includes the ways that institutions discriminate against people on the basis of their sexual orientation or gender identity.

4.Cultural homophobia (heterosexism) refers to societal values and norms that advantage heterosexuality over all other forms of gender expression and sexual orientation.

Now combine that with the info on iunconcious biases such as the unconcious sexism in that book on applied ethics i gave the link to above and you get the full picture.

Cut-and-paste from that document is messy but people may like to look at the long lists of what gets classed as homophobic and transphobic behaviours.

As well as the Recognising Heterosexual and Gender Identity Advantage.

In fact it's an all-round great resource, much better than pulling out the sociology and ethics and womens studies textbooks I would have done if I had the energy to search through 20 boxes of books to do so (my bookcases overflowed a very long time ago) besides those texts are decades out of date. The term Kyriarchy isn't even in them! http://feministphilosophers.wordpres...day-kyriarchy/

Oh and while discussing academic notions related to this subject and gender the australian governemnts human rights community consultation had a great post to it yesterday linking to this good article on Kohlbergs theories on moral development some may find interesting, including it's criticisms http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm which go into an interesting conflict on moral reasoning and gender!

Now if no-one has any further objections for a few hours i need enough sleep to ensure that Transgender Australians actually get more equality under the law and australia actually gets some valid human rights protections incluidng the right to gender expression (we have NO federal bill or charter or statute of rights!).. cause I'm not just talking about this stuff, I'm actually doing something about it!

Further edit: I almost forgot this on unconcious racism http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/op...06kristof.html

[Nicki B]

To make a long story short, I confided to my significant other straight off about my crossdressing, criminal past, other women, drug use, etc, and she was real cool with all that

My other half took a long time before she told me she'd had a lump removed from her breast - and an awful lot longer before she brought up the fact that she'd had an abortion, when she was sixteen...

There are lots of things people are ashamed of, and hide. Much of it isn't logical, either.

[Joanne f]

There are lots of things people are ashamed of, and hide. Much of it isn't logical, either.

Ashamed, now there a word to play with .
This thread may be idealistic and has got a lot of people going but it has a certain amount of sense to it ( when you look past all the negatives).
But it has caused a spin off thread that at first made me feel very ASHAMED of what i am and what i have done in the past .
If it is felt that you need to hide things from you children and family then surely you are saying that there is something wrong with what you are doing .
Just from the words i will support you could mean that you are saying " i will support you because you are doing something wrong" but it will be our secret .

[Deborah Jane]

But wouldn't telling an SO before making a life commitment involve the same risk?

If Sheila hadn't been aware of my c/ding before we met and if i hadn't told her before proposing marriage to her, i believe the risk on her discovery afterwards would been far higher

if transphobia causes a 50% suicide attempt rate

That would mean half the people on this forum have attempted suicide over trans issues.....Possible, but i find it very hard to believe....My own previous suicide attempts were not trans related, they were actually related to other issues from my past......Would the fact that i am trans have made them trans related....In some peoples eyes..YES, but in actuallity a definate NO!!!

[Sheila]

If it is felt that you need to hide things from you children and family then surely you are saying that there is something wrong with what you are doing .
Just from the words i will support you could mean that you are saying " i will support you because you are doing something wrong" but it will be our secret .

it could also be saying " I support you because I believe what you do is not wrong ,nor anything to be ashamed off"

[Sarah Doepner]

First I note that most of Batty's provocative concepts are usually followed by a question mark; she is asking questions, not making judgements. There are also statements that are staged, if you accept the first, then the second and so on, you will eventually arrive at the same conclusion as Batty has. We need to look for assumptions that may be the weak links in that chain of logic if we want to deter her in any way.

For instance;

She says "I'm saying that IF honesty about CDing is an obligation in one relationship THEN isn't it also one in other relationships?"

The assumption embedded there is that all relationships are equal in regard to the need for honesty and full disclosure. I don't know if I can accept that assumption. While it is appropriate in my relationship with my wife to be fully honest about my CDing, that relationship is not based on the same thing as my relationship with my boss or the neighbor. Are we looking at Full Disclosure as being the same as Honesty? While it is critical to be Honest, Full Disclosure at work or in the neighborhood has never been expected while it is within the confines of marriage. I just can't see the need to tell my neighbor about my CDing when our relationship is based on landscaping.

However, if my co-workers or neighbors have misconceptions about gender that I can address and clarify, I see my obligation to deal with them. I am advocating situational ethics based on the need for a consistent definition of Honesty in regard to gender issues. However, is Full Disclosure necessary for an Honest discussion of gender issues outside the question of how it impacts our offspring? Is Full Disclosure necessary for most action addressing these same issues?

If we become involved in this type of discussion and/or action, it may be encumbant on us to be ready to reveal information about ourselves that would both lend credibiltiy to our arguements, but endanger something we have wanted to protect.

[Ralph]

The difference between telling your spouse and telling other family, coworkers, etc. is that you live with your spouse. There is a degree of trust and intimacy in cohabitation that surpasses any of those other relationships - and if there isn't, you're doing it wrong. I am totally, 100% honest with my wife because everything I have is hers, and I expect her to do the same. The guy who works next to me, my boss, those are people who might not even be there a week from now and won't remember my name after they're gone. My brother, my mom... they only see me every few years and we talk maybe once a week, but there are other issues involved - telling them would cause more harm than good to our relationship.

Now having said that, I would not actively lie to anyone in my immediate family; if they flat-out asked me if I crossdress, I would tell them yes. But there are things about myself that I simply don't bring up because it's none of their business. I would no more tell my mom what I wear around the house than I would tell her about sex with my wife.

HTH.

ralph

[AmandaM]

<<But doesn't the gene found suggest that there is need to make the world more TG friendly for the sake of children and childrens children? Doesn't it make overcoming transphobia part of protecting our own familes (mine too, I still have cousins!)>>

I don't know Batty, that seems to be a stretch.

[sarahm]

And then I consider the evidence that there is a genetic aspect to being transsexual and that the scientists behind many of these discoveries think this will be true for all forms of transgender.

Your comment peaked my interest since I manage a multi-million dollar NIH funded research study. I'm fascinated by research being done on this topic or any topic, however I have yet to see any conslusive evidence that there's validity or significance to your statement. I'd appreciate you sharing w/the group multiple citations of conclusive evidential research that's been published in scholarly journals that support your statement.

Best,
sarahm

[AmandaM]

And then I consider the evidence that there is a genetic aspect to being transsexual and that the scientists behind many of these discoveries think this will be true for all forms of transgender.

Your comment peaked my interest since I manage a multi-million dollar NIH funded research study. I'm fascinated by research being done on this topic or any topic, however I have yet to see any conslusive evidence that there's validity or significance to your statement. I'd appreciate you sharing w/the group multiple citations of conclusive evidential research that's been published in scholarly journals that support your statement.

Best,
sarahm

Go ahead Sarah, you can say "gotcha". My previous reference to this discussion belonging on a metaphysics forum stands. In layman's terms, my response to Batty could be stated as "are you friggin' for real?". :D

P.S. Don't be mad Batty, I actually like you.

[battybattybats]

If Sheila hadn't been aware of my c/ding before we met and if i hadn't told her before proposing marriage to her, i believe the risk on her discovery afterwards would been far higher

I agree. That was my own personal conclusion with my last romantic relationship too.

Of course telling someone on the first date means you wont know at all if you can trust them, that takes a long time to learn but waiting till you know you can trust them means increasing constantly the risk of them feelling upset they didn't know it from the first date.

Does that mean the only virtuous course of action is to be upfront from the first date no matter that risk?

If so then doesn't that mean you'd have to already be prepared to be publicly outed before you could ever date sensibly?

If so then wouldn't the most sensible course of virtuous action be to 'bite the bullet' and be out publicly from the start? Thereby being honest from the outset, no longer having the complicating risk of being outted? Even though there would be intitial cost of risk of loss of relationships and the medium-to-long-term cost of discrimination? Yet also by being out publicly adding to the net reduction of that discrimination?

And again there's the point that IF a GG considers that CDs should be honest and confess their CDing from the outset despite all the risks that entails and the overcoming internalised oppression and the natural human instinct to avoid judgement THEN is it not hypocritical of them IF they are unwilling to suffer those same risks?

That would mean half the people on this forum have attempted suicide over trans issues.....Possible, but i find it very hard to believe

Well by all means check the studies and question their methodology. When published in peer-review journals or the like you or I or others here could write to those journals requesting a further review.

Also it's entirely possible that different groups of people are more susceptible. Like the murder risk being mostly suffered by non-white MtF CDs and TSs intersections of discrimination may dramatically vary the risks and most CDs being closeted compared to TS means that many TG people will be under-represented in most studies.

However if the same genes cover CD as well as TS, perhaps as a result of combinations of genes or double-expressions of genes etc as seems likely then it's still our problem.

....My own previous suicide attempts were not trans related, they were actually related to other issues from my past......Would the fact that i am trans have made them trans related....In some peoples eyes..YES, but in actuallity a definate NO!!!

There will always be situations where TG people have the same reasons for suicide as non-TGs, but where the rate is higher then there is more obviously. And don't forget co-morbidities! Where issues that would normally be more easilly coped with become harder to cope with because of the strains and pressures of internalised oppression or living with repression or under oppression etc. This was noted as a key point in the removal of homosexuality from the DSM in the 70's because the suicide risk etc wasn't caused by being gay but by being gay in a homophobic society. I'm having trouble finding the study I'm after (i'm sure there was a latrobe uni study with the TG suicide stats for Australia) but these comparisons of GLB youth suicide in Australia might help the point: http://www.acys.info/youth_facts_and...nsgender_youth

Suicide risks:
A national study by Jonathan Nicholas and John Howard presented at the Suicide Prevention Australia national conference revealed the following figures around suicide attempts:

Gay male: 20.8% had attempted suicide
Heterosexual male: 5.4%
Bi/undecided male: 29.4%
Lesbian female: 28%
Heterosexual female: 8.3%
Bi/undecided female: 34.9%
The study included same sex attracted young men and women up to 30 years of age with an average age of 21. It also documented when the first suicide attempt occurred.

For gay males, this was on average:

5.7 years after becoming sexually interested in men
3.5 years after self identifying as gay
0.4 years before another person found out they were gay
0.3 years before they had their first same gender sexual experience.
For lesbians, this was on average:

1.9 years after becoming sexually interested in women
0.2 years after self identifying as same sex attracted
0.8 years before another person found out they were lesbian
2 years before they had had their first same gender experience.

ok, here's a source for a 53% attempt rate of TSs http://www.outproud.org/article_suicide.html

Transsexuals may be at higher risk than homosexuals and much higher risk than the general population to suicidal behavior. (13) Fifty-three percent of transsexuals surveyed had made suicide attempts. (14)

13. Harry, J., "Adolescent Suicide and Sexual Identity Issues," submitted to the National Institute of Mental Health for the Secretary's Conference on Adolescent Suicide, Washington, DC, May 8-9, 1986.
14. Huxdly, J., and Brandon, S., "Partnership in Transsexualism, Part 1: Paired and Non-paired Groups," Archives of Sexual Behavior, 10, pp. 133-141, 1981.

Like most things CDs are likely not studied, so the result could be lower, or even higher.

First I note that most of Batty's provocative concepts are usually followed by a question mark; she is asking questions, not making judgements. There are also statements that are staged, if you accept the first, then the second and so on, you will eventually arrive at the same conclusion as Batty has. We need to look for assumptions that may be the weak links in that chain of logic if we want to deter her in any way.

Thankyou for comprehending that! All the vitriol really gets upsetting when I'm falsely cast as the villain. I have feellings too after all.

For instance;

She says "I'm saying that IF honesty about CDing is an obligation in one relationship THEN isn't it also one in other relationships?"

The assumption embedded there is that all relationships are equal in regard to the need for honesty and full disclosure. I don't know if I can accept that assumption. While it is appropriate in my relationship with my wife to be fully honest about my CDing, that relationship is not based on the same thing as my relationship with my boss or the neighbor.

Sure. But what makes the operative difference? What about the difference makes one thing right and not the other?

Are we looking at Full Disclosure as being the same as Honesty? While it is critical to be Honest, Full Disclosure at work or in the neighborhood has never been expected while it is within the confines of marriage. I just can't see the need to tell my neighbor about my CDing when our relationship is based on landscaping.

Are, careful there, thats a recent notion of ones obligation to ones neighbours your using there. It has in the past been considered that everything is the communities bussiness, such as being allegedly a witch or having the plague. And some things we consider today in some places go that far by law such as former already-punished sex-offenders being outted to their neighbours by law in some places. Meanwhile the right to keep things secret from your partner has also been legally recognised and was a key piece fought for by feminism.

However, if my co-workers or neighbors have misconceptions about gender that I can address and clarify, I see my obligation to deal with them. I am advocating situational ethics based on the need for a consistent definition of Honesty in regard to gender issues.

Good point.

However, is Full Disclosure necessary for an Honest discussion of gender issues outside the question of how it impacts our offspring? Is Full Disclosure necessary for most action addressing these same issues?

Good questions!

I'd argue personally that at present the risk to career of full disclosure when someone has family responsibilities is too great when there are not employment protections and that instead work to ensure such workplace protections would be for those people the most important action, and one which, being about to go before US federal legilative bodies soon, would justify (or even demand) taking substantial risk far more so than the advances of full public disclosure!

If we become involved in this type of discussion and/or action, it may be encumbant on us to be ready to reveal information about ourselves that would both lend credibiltiy to our arguements, but endanger something we have wanted to protect.

True but short-term risk may well be a neccessity because of the obligation to the long-term risks.

<<But doesn't the gene found suggest that there is need to make the world more TG friendly for the sake of children and childrens children? Doesn't it make overcoming transphobia part of protecting our own familes (mine too, I still have cousins!)>>

I don't know Batty, that seems to be a stretch.

Why so?
We consider that true for breast cancer.
If a parent knows there is a family history of breast cancer or learns they carry the gene that increases the risk of breast cancer don't we consider it neccessary to tell their children?

Didn't Women determine they had an obligation to make the world less sexist for their daughters whe they fought for equality?

Didn't African Americans do the same?

Where do you consider the stretch?

[Nicole Erin]

Am I the only one who was digging out earwax out of my ears with a q-tip and playing with my cell phone wile reading the origina post?

[battybattybats]

And then I consider the evidence that there is a genetic aspect to being transsexual and that the scientists behind many of these discoveries think this will be true for all forms of transgender.

Your comment peaked my interest since I manage a multi-million dollar NIH funded research study. I'm fascinated by research being done on this topic or any topic, however I have yet to see any conslusive evidence that there's validity or significance to your statement. I'd appreciate you sharing w/the group multiple citations of conclusive evidential research that's been published in scholarly journals that support your statement.

Best,
sarahm

Being so well situated (seing as the gene study was co-funded by NIH, the people funding your own study) you could find the sources faster than I (and seriously, most of my time is busy on that little human-rights for Australia deally) so here's the mass-media piece to get you going http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-12377,00.html

THE nature versus nurture debate rages on but a new study of transsexuals has shown genetics plays a key role in determining our sense of gender.

In the largest genetic study of its kind, 112 male-to-female transsexuals took part in a study involving several Melbourne research bodies and the University of California, Los Angeles.

Researchers measured the variation in the androgen receptor gene, which is involved in the functioning of the sex hormone testosterone.

DNA samples from the transsexuals were compared with the samples from 250 typical men.

Researchers discovered the transsexuals were more likely than non-transsexuals to have a longer form of the gene.

"We think these genetic differences might reduce testosterone action and under-masculinise the brain during foetal development," Prince Henry's Institute researcher Lauren Hare said.

Lead researcher, Associate Professor Vincent Harley, head of molecular genetics at Prince Henry's Institute, said there had long been debate about the causes of transsexuality.

"There is a social stigma that transsexualism is simply a lifestyle choice. However, our findings support a biological basis of how gender identity develops," he said.

He said researchers were recruiting transsexual people for another study and hoped to double the sample size and examine other genes.

Assoc Prof Harley said it was important to replicate the findings in other populations.

Researcher Trudy Kennedy, director of the Monash Gender Dysphoria Clinic, said the study supported other evidence that genetics and brain gender were important in transsexuality.

"This is something that people are born with and it's certainly not a lifestyle choice as some have suggested," she said.

Julie Peters, a transgender person, said she knew from as young as three or four years old she did not fit into being a boy.

"I have always had the personality of a girl, I suppose is the way I perceive it and even from a very young age, three or four, I was really mad at people for making me a boy," she said.

"I personally think it (gender) is a combination of both (nature and nurture).

"You are born with a predisposition to have a certain personality and then depending on the culture you are brought up in your personal situation it becomes active in a particular way."

The study research was jointly funded by the National Health and Medical Research Council and the US National Institutes of Health.

Zoe's been collecting much of the research on transgender neurology together and discussing it's implications on her blog (currently considered of enough significance that it's being archived by the Australian National Library iirc) so cast your eyes over her blog posts with her frequent citations of studies :D http://aebrain.blogspot.com/