Men being men part 2 .... the dark side (& comment on androgyny in the mainstream)

[ReineD]

Sue & Asche, we'll simply need to agree to disagree. I do not believe that gender is a pure social construct.

I do believe gender identities are reinforced (and also some gender roles but this is decreasing remarkably), but they reinforce something that is there to begin with. How would nature ensure the propagation of our species if it favored gender neutrality? These are deep questions and I suppose I could take a week (or a lifetime ) to conduct research, but I don't have the time nor the current resources to do it properly.

I just know the little things. For example, I have 3 boys. I was determined to raise nurturing, feeling human beings. They did not go to public school, but to a Montessori school where everything is gender neutral, from the age of 18 months. There was an elaborate Playmobil dollhouse that I volunteered to bring home once in order to put crazy glue on all the joints, that the little ones kept taking apart. It was at my house for months. My sons and I played with it and they loved it because here was the world they saw around them reflected in miniature. I did not allow guns in my house. The toys were zoos, circuses, lots of art materials and books, no popular culture male character toys, etc. All their friends also went to Montessori. The dress up box had loads of different things it it, with some things specifically for boys but most of it was gender neutral.

Well, guess what? They would go outside and make their own guns out of sticks. They would play aggressive games with their friends. They would tie each other up to trees. Girls don't do this.

Also, if gender were a social construct that CDs and TSs don't "fall for" then how come there are not more CDs and TSs?

I posted in another thread today, I do believe traditional gender roles are narrowing in the workforce and at home. Dads and moms both do yard work and household chores. They both have university degrees and they both work side by side in the workforce. Male nurses or flight attendants are more common now as well. Yet, the males do not "feel" more feminine, nor do the females "feel" more masculine in these jobs or activities. Men enjoy ballet, the arts, the theater, and women enjoy sports. They both like to cook. When men and women date, they each take turns picking up the tab. Gender identity is so much deeper than what someone does for a living, the pastimes they engage in, and what chores they take on at home.

I know the idea that sometime in the future men will universally want to break out of the restrictive masculine chains that have been "forced" on them and will therefore embrace and accept a more feminine style of presentation may be appealing to CDers who have felt society's bias all their lives, but I honestly do not believe this is a realistic outlook of things to come. And this is because gender roles are narrowing (AND NOT gender identities which is separate from the roles). Things have relaxed considerably from 60 years ago, they continue to relax even more, yet outside of the trans community, boys still want to be boys and girls still want to be girls. At least this is what I have observed in the many different places I have lived among the hundreds of people I have known, in the dozens of different social contexts.

I am not at all saying that transpersons need to conform to the cis world. I am saying that I do not believe it is realistic for transpersons to believe that the cis world will disappear when society stops imposing all these "fake" gender constructs on men. If non-TG men felt so constrained by these constructs, they'd buck the system royally, just like the women did at the turn of the last century when they demanded equal rights.

What we do have now are dads clamoring for fairer divorce and custody laws. They want custody of their kids and they don't want to pay alimony. And the trend is going their way, together with the narrowing gender roles in the workforce and at home that enable women to support themselves and enable dads to take care of their kids. But, this does not make these dads feel more feminine or want to present in a more feminine manner.