Motel/hotel rooms and the shame of crossdressing...I feel a rant coming on!

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I am insulted by the presumptions from some members about members like me that choose not go out dressed.

It's not a presumption...considering at one time... I could have written the EXACT same things you and Nicole have said about the closet....Frederique too...girly typeface and everything. Really. 13 years ago I was saying pretty much the same things you have said. But guess what, I learned from those who had experience and history who said things like Lorileah, Badtranny and I have done in this thread. It was people like Lacey Leigh, Joann Prinzivalli and Caprice Bellefleur, people only some of the oldest of oldbies here would even know of....that helped me then back when I was clueless and naive. Did you know Lacey Leigh wrote and self published a booK? Probably not. Have you read ANY trans-related books?

You have no idea how annoying it is to read some of these comments.

How do you think I feel. 13 bloody years in the various online trans-communities and some people STILL don't want to learn from history or experience of others. The only reason I say the things I do is to try to prevent problems...including things I learned from personal experience.

Is it not a good idea to stick to commenting on something you understand?

After 13 YEARS and a tonne of reading, I think I understand the online transcommunity and transgendered people in general, and their archetypes and patterns of behavior quite a bit.

Perhaps even develop some empathy and understanding about the REAL reasons why members like me choose not to go out dressed and not put a label on us like ‘we feel shame or guilt or are negative or something.

And what "real" reasons are those? I've seen a lot of reaons including the ones I myself had, over the years and most of the time they do boil down to one of those negative's I mentioned. So tell me...what's your reason?

I have never criticized anyone for going out dressed.

I call it criticism when you respond like this when people mention going out. You have a very strong emotional reaction against it. And it's not just because of me, you have always got defensive and nasty when the topic was brought up.

Don’t criticize me for not or start telling me the reasons why I don’t go out dressed.

Let me paraphrase something I was told about 13 years ago. "Sometimes one needs a kick in the pants to break them out of their fear and complacency."

Is it me?

Just curious. ;-)

No it's me, ever since I confronted her on thread some time back on a thread related to this topic, if I remember correctly. It's become something of a vendetta, it got a bit worse when I confronted Frederique, who is also of the "not liking the out people" crowd.

But sometimes there's a refusal to understand someone else's point of view.

One word....Experience.

It matters. As I said, I understand Suzy and Nicole quite well, since at one time I could have written the same things they did. I've seen the pattern over and over and over for years. it goes like this:

1. Someone experienced and wise, posts about how going out made them feel better and how it's a good thing and helps us all.

2. someone like Suzy or Nicole (or me back in 1999) says something like: "Stop being pushy and arrogant, you don't know how I feel... you're making me feel bad and ashamed of my fear"

3. Experienced person ays "I felt like you once...trust me, you'll feel better once you let go of the fear"

4. someone like Suzy or Nicole (or 1999 me) says: "I'm not afraid...I just don't want to go out... I live in a small town/deep sount/ conservative area...I can't go out."

5. Experienced person says "that's the fear talking, and it's bullshit, and you know it"

6. Someone like Suzy, Nicole or 1999 Me says: Stop it!"

7. Time passes and the Suzy/Nicole/Me in 1999 reads more and sees people writing and decides to go out or tell someone...the world doesn't end.

8. Me in 2001: "It was just like you said...the world didn't end. And yes I was afraid and let my fear rule me and I didn't want to admit it. I feel so much better...it really works."

8. Someone else full of fear: "Stop saying that... I'll never go out...never never....I'm not afraid... Stop talking about going out and making us fearful folks feel bad."

9. The old hand who started the thing in #1: "here we go again"

I've seen that pattern repeat over and over and over again. USENET, IRC, message boards including this one.

One of the main reasons for not coming out is that someone is in a marriage with an SO who wants nothing to do with CDing.

Why did the CD marry someone who wasn't okay with the CDing in the first place? We all know the answer to that one...having seen it so many times.

There are people who fear (and often rightly) the consequences for their family or their job, etc.

But that brings up what we said. How are things going to get better so that people DONT have to worry about that...if people hide in their closets and don't do anything. That would mean nothing would ever get better. Don't you want things to get better for us all?

And there are always so many people who think they can sound someone else's heart and tell them what they find there.

Do you know why? Badtranny, Lorileah and I have "been there, done that, got the cap sleeve v-neck pastel t-shirt" We've had the same fears! others like me have been involved in the transcommunity (online and off) for so long that we've seen so much of this.

I'd never take it upon myself to judge somebody else's situation. I've had enough trouble judging my own. I certainly wouldn't tell somebody else how to live their life.

But shouldn't those with experience help those dealing with the exact same struggles they did? Should they stand aside and do nothing while the others experience anguish and pain?

Would I take a similar risk purely for their sake? What do they owe me? What do I owe them?

Owe them....they're "your people"! We're all in this together! This whole "I'm not my brothers keeper, I've got mine, who gives a damn about anyone else" attitude has to end.

Perhaps each individual has come out for his/her own personal reasons.

I did, but every little bit helps. Every CD who gets out there and does their thing without shame and holds their head high...helps us all.

Yes, altruism is a very good thing, but how many of us can honestly say that's our prime motivation in getting out?

It doesn't have to be the only or primary motivation....but people should do "something" instead of just sitting back and waiting for things to get better.

Does that make me better than other people?

It does make you more experienced...and you do know that the world didn't end...did it?

I've been lost for so long. Will I now tell people how to find themselves? I'm not St. Paul and don't want to be.

But if people don't share what they've learned...others will not learn from the mistakes the previous ones did....and nothing will change or get better.

But I do love the triumphs, the look of happiness you can see when someone is finally able to be out as who they really are.

Bless you.

and I agree with Veronica on this, what else can you assume? ......Yes it is an assumption but it is based on fact and often true. Especially when the accompanying post says "I finally got away from my SO and was t a hotel in another city where I could dress up without having the fear of being caught or seen" (Totally a amalgamation of several posts of similar ilk)

Indeed, those posts are what I was thinking of.

but it would be nice if you would. So many here complain about not "being able" but then they shy away from making it happen. I am sure that MLK would have been a lot happier and safer being a minister in a small church somewhere. Well as happy as a man who was considered a second class citizen , who was told that he could not certain things, that some rights were meant for other and not for him. He could have lived his life in relative peace. But he didn't.

Exactly.

You are right, nothing for you and once again I will reference the poem written after WWII by Rev Martin Niemöller, Hopefully just before they come for you.

I wasn't thinking of Niemoller but I'm glad you mentioned the poem. :-)

However when was teh last post you saw by a "TS" who said "OMG I am so afrid of what the world will say I will just hide and wait until things get better on their own"? Hey, any thing we post here is to help support or advance the OP's life, I hope.

Indeed...even if get pointed...I'm just trying to break through folks mental barriers.

I was not a happy camper, I was angry and withdrawn and unsocial.

Nods, that seems to be pattern.

So many things we DON'T do because we are so busy doing what others think we SHOULD do. It takes awhile for many to see this, that life is short enough, that by not being happy it makes it worse.

Yes! I'm glad you're bringing up the emotional aspects.

My hope is that someday, at least the fear of being "discovered" will be moot.

And Mine as well.

But don't worry, I am going to present and represent. Small spit in the ocean thing but maybe someday our children will be able to wear what they like, love who they want, live a life that does not have to be hidden. Yes I have a dream, I may not make it to the mountain top with you, but someday "our" people will stand upon it (OK got a little maudlin there sorry)

Well said.

Veronica

[Foxglove]

Veronica, you have a lot to say, and you take a lot on yourself. Are you really sure you're up for it? You're displaying what I call "the St. Paul Syndrome": what is true of me is true of everybody, and what will save me will save everybody. Paul was wrong.

Life isn't so simple, and people aren't so easily reduced to formulas.

As for this statement of yours:

Owe them....they're "your people"! We're all in this together! This whole "I'm not my brothers keeper, I've got mine, who gives a damn about anyone else" attitude has to end.

I'll decide for myself who "my people" are. A lot of them may be trans, a lot of them may not be. I don't buy my friends in packets. Here's a quote from Leonard Cohen that I think is appropriate:

And if you call me brother now
Forgive me if I inquire,
Just according to whose plan?

I'll wait and see, Veronica. I'll wait and see.

Annabelle

[suzy1]

Thanks for the advice Veronica. You are the wise one and I am an inexperienced young person that knows nothing about myself or the big wide world out there.
Please hold my hand and guide me through all the hazards of this C.D. world for without you I am a lost soul.
Yes, please kick me in the pants to break me out of my fear and complicacy.

Thank you, thank you so much. You are my hero.

Poor little Suzy

[Frédérique]

It occurs to me that so many of the photos that fellow forum members here have posted on this site were taken either in motel or in hotel rooms, based on the decor evident in the background. That just underlines again how secretive most of us still are regarding our "strange" hobby. Not just secretive, but downright ashamed, actually...

[SIZE="2"]You alienate many members by calling crossdressing a “hobby.” That’s your first mistake… [/SIZE]

So let's take a cue from our gay and lesbian fellow travellers on this sex/gender continuum, be "loud, proud, and out", come out of hiding and go forth confidently into the big bad world, see and be seen, and don't let anyone ever try to diminish us again because of who or what we are...

[SIZE="2"]Sounds a lot like “Lead, follow, or get out of the way!” doesn’t it? I’ll never be loud, I’ll never be proud (since I hate that overtly male term), and I’ll never let anyone tell me I have to be OUT just because it will improve their perception of themselves. I’m responsible for my own happiness, and that involves not listening to self-righteous blowhards who feel the need to step up on the nearest soapbox, ABOVE us all, and rant about how they have been mistreated by society. I am at peace with myself, doing what I do, HOW I like to do it, and your way is not MY way, get it?

Referencing what I wrote above, you need to know I suspended ignoring you long enough to read this latest rant of yours, if only to verify something to myself. Yup, I was right. Why all the rants of late? Is something bothering you? Hijacking your own volatile vernacular, crossdressing is a wonderful, yet “strange” so-called hobby – why not just crossdress according to your own desires and stop kicking the communal hornet’s nest? Oh, and BTW, thanks for not answering my PM…[/SIZE]

This very basically harmless activity becomes not quite so harmless and simple when scrutinized, analyzed, and publicized. Assuredly, we are hurting no one, but stand to get hurt very badly should the knowledge of our crossdressing become public knowledge.

[SIZE="2"]And who wishes to be hurt? It helps to understand HOW you are, WHERE you are, and WHEN you are, and “act” accordingly. Some of us are very sensitive, as well as sensitive to the feelings of others. I don’t wish to bother anyone, whether I’m crossdressed or not…[/SIZE]

It was beautiful and pointed, and deliciously bitchy. Perfect.

[SIZE="2"]The author of that post specializes in such things. Thanks SO much for the encouragement… [/SIZE]

[Badtranny]

Here's a quote from Leonard Cohen that I think is appropriate:

And if you call me brother now
Forgive me if I inquire,
Just according to whose plan?

Not fair to invoke Leonard Cohen, his words make mine look lowercase indeed.

You may want to pick your people but unfortunately, we humans hang from the frayed end of circumstance and our people are often chosen for us by the greater social construct. Having said that, you may love and support your sister without always being in 100% agreement. There's many girls on this board who I have come to like and respect very much, but I don't think there's ANY of them that I haven't argued with at one time or another. My "online persona" is real and my thoughts and opinions are real and there is no way to be a real genuine person with an authentic personality and NOT disagree with someone or a lot of someones. Just because Veronica is kinda bitchy doesn't mean she's wrong or even misguided. Just because a bunch of us endorse coming out doesn't mean we think everybody should do it OUR way. I feel like my way was pretty unique, and I bet the other girls would say the same thing. My friend Allie is OUT but she is out in her own way. She does what works for her. If I tease her about sneaking out of the house (not from a wife) she just tells me to mind my own business. I would never say she is closeted, but she's definitely different than me, and that is totally okay. She does more for the advancement of TG acceptance in a single weekend than 100 closeted CD's do all year, but the important point is she does it her way.

Being closeted is a personal choice and I have no issue with it unless you are a closeted CD, or queer, or whatever and are actively working to undermine the advancement of my civil rights. That is the biggest rub for me because I know that closet queens are the most anti-gay people out there. Back when I was one myself (in Bakersfield) I met one or two of these bitches and some of them were in local politics. Suffice to say that their constituents had no idea what they were up to in the back of my truck. It was only the closet that allowed them the luxury of that duality. It's hard if not impossible to accept yourself as gay and then actively campaign against the rights of your community, but for some reason it's much easier if you just don't acknowledge your own gayness.

Being a closet CD is the same. If you can look at yourself in the mirror, when you're NOT dressed and say "I am a transgender person" and truly accept yourself for who you are, then you will begin to slowly come out of your shell. You will begin to vote differently, you will begin to expand your circle of friends, you will begin to spend less time with people that are openly bigoted towards people like you. Eventually you may even let some people see the real you. This is what happens BEFORE you come out to the world. Soon you will be proud that you are living more openly. NOT proud to be TG, you had no choice in that matter, but proud to have finally accepted yourself and proud that you are no longer afraid.

Than you can come on here and fight with a whole new group of sisters. ;-)

[Lorileah]

First let me say "I am NOT gay" (but my boyfriend is). OK cheap shot at bad humor

Just because Veronica is kinda bitchy doesn't mean she's wrong or even misguided.

Ouch

Just because a bunch of us endorse coming out doesn't mean we think everybody should do it OUR way. I feel like my way was pretty unique, and I bet the other girls would say the same thing.

agreed, it took personal loss, twice in 3 years for me and I would not wish that on anyone. OTOH, I would like to help someone prevent the potholes. If you read the stories here you start to see a pattern and often that pattern has pain associated with it. Pain hurts. But if someone says "don't do that" maybe you can avoid it. There are people here who will never go out and are perfectly happy about that. That is good. But there are far more who dream and wish to go out but are stymied by fear, fear of things that are not there. Fear of what they imagine will happen, and it is often the worst case scenario. Fear because they have been taught to fear. I won't skydive because 1 out of 100,000 times the parachute doesn't open. If I had the desire to skydive I would welcome people who have jumped to tell me how it feels, how they finally overcame the fear, how great it is. Nothing more (No I still won't jump out of an airplane with one engine and two wings, I will wait until it is 2 feet off the ground and jump then).

Being closeted is a personal choice and I have no issue with it unless you are a closeted CD, or queer, or whatever and are actively working to undermine the advancement of my civil rights

emphasis mine. And when one sees themselves as being different or wrong or bad and they perpetuate it, either consciously or unconsciously, they do make my life as I am harder. We don't choose to be members of minorities who are somehow held back, but we can work to make it stop.

If you can look at yourself in the mirror, when you're NOT dressed and say "I am a transgender person" and truly accept yourself for who you are, then you will begin to slowly come out of your shell.

This is the quote of the year. So often people here say that they cannot be who or what they are because society won't let them, and yet when they are not dressed, they continue on as if nothing happens. It is like they are saying "accept me...well only when I want to otherwise, carry on". You don't have to wave the flag. Just don't try and stop the parade.

Than you can come on here and fight with a whole new group of sisters. ;-)

This isn't a fight, it has been a civil and fascinating discussion. If everyone here agreed it would be a boring "what color are you panties" site . And I hope that no one here is my enemy. Maybe we won't share a latte, but no matter what (even if some disagree) I will defend your right to be who you are forever.

[Kelli Ca]

great post and yes we should do all that and the other, but like many have said is it that easy?

[Badtranny]

but like many have said is it that easy?

Oh no. It isn't easy at all. Self acceptance is one of the hardest things you can ever do. It's like working hard to be a singer your whole life. You've taken lessons, you've been in bands, you never miss a karaoke but one day you finally have to come to grips with the fact that you're not very good. You will never sing professionally and you have to accept that and be okay with it. It's awful to finally get to the point where you say I can't do this anymore. For me it was running from the little girl who had haunted me since pre-adolescence, for others it's the concept that they will NEVER be a normal man. They love to cross-dress and they want to do it more, or they want to explore their femininity, or they want to meet a man. Admit to yourself who you are and what you enjoy. Accept it, own it, embrace it. I promise you it is hard, but I also promise that loving yourself is worth every ounce of pain it takes to get there.

Coming out is the byproduct of that love, maybe not for everyone but I would say that for most people that love makes a light that becomes hard to shade. NOBODY wants to be transgender. I did NOT want to be a transsexual woman but one day I was in an accident that changed my life. I realized right then that life was too short to hate myself for something I couldn't change. I wasn't going to waste another minute. I was on HRT that very summer.

It is not easy, but when has something worthwhile ever been easy?

[Debglam]

Ok, I've been slowly moving away from this forum because of the bad feelings. Seems like everyday was an opportunity to bash someone different from you on the gender spectrum, or to deny that spectrum even exists. (Hey, you are wrong BTW.) I just don't have the patience for it anymore. Well this thread has restored my faith a little bit.

Melissa, Lorileah, and Veronica. . .love you girls!

Debby

[OKPink]

I travel on business, and spend up to 200 nights a year in hotels. My wife and travel about every 6 weeks for an extended weekend vacation, in addition to the business travel (all those points and miles have to be used). The unusual photos are the ones that are NOT in a hotel!

[Frédérique]

If you can look at yourself in the mirror, when you're NOT dressed and say "I am a transgender person" and truly accept yourself for who you are, then you will begin to slowly come out of your shell.

[SIZE="2"]That’s fine and dandy if you ARE a transgendered person, but let’s not assume that the CD in the motel/hotel room, beset with alleged shame and struggling to express himself is transgendered – there are plenty of MtF crossdressers who dress as women, but they do not identify as female. Our boy in the motel is doing the best he can, under the circumstances, so please leave him alone so he can find himself, or herself, or at least derive some momentary pleasure from his crossdressing. I remember a time gone by when I could crossdress in peace without all of this TG rhetoric clouding my mind, but then I came to discussion forums like this one, and my crossdressing wasn’t so simple anymore. I take issue with this line of reasoning that you must be out in the open, come what may, or you’re just not qualified to be a TRUE MtF crossdresser – it sounds a lot like the bullying I used to get in the playground, where effeminacy was targeted without mercy, but now it's coming from a new (and, I must say, unwelcome) angle...

Saying there is a “shell” surrounding one’s true self sounds pretty, but, if you ask me, ALL people have protective enclosures, kept in place for security and survival. If you look in the mirror you will see what you want to see. How can I NOT accept who I am? This was automatic, and I immediately started to build my defenses against those who would do me harm. I live in a world where boys who identify as boys cannot be girls – not now, not ever, so I have to be very creative in my “approach” to this world. I want to crossdress for the sake of crossdressing, and let the rest take care of itself. Just like the heroes in the motel and hotel rooms, I know my limits, and I have developed my own boundaries for comfort – since I’m not TG, this is as far as it goes, but, to those who insist on being prideful, my ilk will never go far enough. This issue will forever be deadlocked, because I will not exceed my limits just to please and empower someone else, and the TG pundits will never take me seriously. We are worlds apart...

One more thing – a shell is just a metaphor. You assume I’m in a shell that I have created for myself, but, from my vantage point, I don’t detect the presence of a shell at all – you’re TELLING me that there is something wrong with me, and, on this point, I beg to differ...
[/SIZE]

[Lorileah]

Freddy, I know you have your own ideas here but Transgendered is NOT the same as transsexual. It does include even the most transient CD's. Even a guy who dresses as a female for fun is transgendered...by definition that we use here at the very least. This is part of the issue when "we" don't even use the same terms in the same manner. And you are not reading the posts. No one said you MUST. You will gain the advantages when they come, the other minorities have had the same issues. Those who either did not want to join or those who felt that status quo was satisfactory. Those people get the same rights afterward and no one tells them they should not have them. If you use them or not is up to you. As a group we have that advantage that we can just "blend" away. We can remain unseen. If that is good enough for you then, good. But there are so many here who daily complain they cannot do something. They cannot wear the clothes (and women can how unfair!), they cannot go outside, they cannot dress as they wish, they cannot do whatever. To those, the ones who want more than what they believe they have, then get out. The world does not stop.
Think for a minute. Why does one take photos of oneself in a hotel room if they are satisfied with the status quo? Would they not just dress and then undress?

And nowhere in any of the posts in this thread did anyone say that anyone was LESS than another because they didn't go out.

And since we seem to be now going in circles, I am going to just say, Do what you want, the only person you need to please is yourself. You should try and please your spouse and children but you are the one you will live with your whole life. There are no re-rides. If you don't like how things are though, you are the one who needs to work on change. You can sit in the back of the bus and complain about the route, or you can drive the bus and go where you want to go on your own terms.

[Badtranny]

[SIZE="2"]One more thing – a shell is just a metaphor. You assume I’m in a shell that I have created for myself, but, from my vantage point, I don’t detect the presence of a shell at all – you’re TELLING me that there is something wrong with me, and, on this point, I beg to differ...
[/SIZE]

Goodness you are defensive with a capital D.

In fact I am NOT saying there is something wrong with you. Just the opposite actually, and when I used the term TG I was using it in the umbrella sense of all gender variant people. I fully understand that a good many (probably the majority) of CD's identify as men who just enjoy expressing some femininity or maybe just enjoy the clothes for whatever reason. That's great, but a LOT of these people are experiencing some soul killing guilt over this expression. You are apparently aces with your life the way it is and if so, nothing I say is of any interest to you but there is somebody standing in their bathroom right now in front of their mirror trying desperately to admit to themselves that they are cross-dressers and they are sick of being ashamed of it.

Have you been reading my whole posts because I make it pretty clear that the crux of this whole issue is self acceptance. I believe strongly (and possibly wrongly) that shame and humiliation are born from self hate. I think that acknowledging to like minded people that you enjoy cross-dressing is not the same as accepting yourself and in fact sites like this can be dangerous to the psyche because they can forestall or prevent self acceptance because they let the person believe that because they participate in forums that they have accepted who they are. The reality is quite different. There is a difference in keeping things private and keeping secrets. Everybody knows I poop, but nobody is likely to see it or hear me talk about it. It's not a secret, but it IS private.

You strike me as somebody who is fiercely independent and most likely not in need of a social acceptance. I'm very similar and I think that many of us have learned to cope with being shunned early in life by retreating into ourselves. Most people are NOT like this. Most people need other people and keeping deep dark secrets is not a healthy habit. I've also said that coming out is a very personal thing and every person will have a different methodology as well as different motivations. The ONLY thing I keep coming back to is self acceptance. I know it sounds trite, but when you really achieve it, you have a whole different idea about yourself. Purging for example doesn't just stop, it begins to seem ridiculous.

There is NOTHING wrong with cross dressing. There IS something wrong with being creepy and secretive.

[Foxglove]

You may want to pick your people but unfortunately, we humans hang from the frayed end of circumstance and our people are often chosen for us by the greater social construct. Having said that, you may love and support your sister without always being in 100% agreement. There's many girls on this board who I have come to like and respect very much, but I don't think there's ANY of them that I haven't argued with at one time or another. My "online persona" is real and my thoughts and opinions are real and there is no way to be a real genuine person with an authentic personality and NOT disagree with someone or a lot of someones. Just because Veronica is kinda bitchy doesn't mean she's wrong or even misguided. Just because a bunch of us endorse coming out doesn't mean we think everybody should do it OUR way. . ,.

Hi, Melissa! I find very little to disagree with in your latest posts. What I appreciate about them most is that you do acknowledge that people are different, that their needs are different and that these needs may need to be addressed in different ways.

And you are right when you say that society will lump us all together. But that doesn't mean that society will always be right to do so. I will always and forevermore reserve the right to decide for myself who my brothers and sisters are. Obviously I feel a natural affinity for transpeople, but I've already met a few that I won't have anything to do with. If anyone says they're my brother/sister, they're going to have to show me that's true. I won't just take their word for it.

You know the old saying, "Nice guys finish last"? My reply to that is, "Yeah, but they're still nice guys. And anyway, who says they were running the same stupid race as everybody else? Maybe they didn't finish last. Maybe they weren't running at all."

And so if someone is "b***, but not wrong or misguided," well, she's still a b***. People can be right and on the right road without being bitchy. And this sets aside the question as to whether she is actually right.

It is possible to be right and beautiful at the same time. Can I quote Leonard Cohen again?

Every heart, every heart to love will come
But like a refugee
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in.

Veronica says she has lots of experience. Lots of us do. Here's what I've learned from my experience: there's truth and then there's truth. There's a bitchy sort of truth, if that's what you're interested in. But if you want the genuine article, look for beauty, look for depth. Bitchiness doesn't impress me in the least. I've got too much of that myself and I've always found it distasteful. I'd prefer to turn to people like Cohen.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Michelle (Oz)]

It occurs to me that so many of the photos that fellow forum members here have posted on this site were taken either in motel or in hotel rooms, based on the decor evident in the background.

Guilty your Honor. My avatar and a few others I cycle are taken in a hotel room. My current avatar photo was taken before I headed out to the Sydney casino – terrific time too!!

My hotel rooms are a mess with makeup, clothes and what not in cupboards or scattered around – the consequences of travelling with too much luggage and being sick and tired of having to store my clothes in cases. No attempt to hide them. Absolutely no pretences with all staff that I am anything other than a crossdresser. So I’m totally out when I’m away educating all and sundry that CDers are good people – I'm not secretive and certainly not ashamed.

Yet I am scared, in fact I’m terrified!! Terrified that I will lose the love of my life, my forever wife, who loves me dearly but abhors crossdressing even without an effort to understand.

So hotel rooms are my way of fulfilling myself to the max. "Sad" - no. I may be not happy with the circumstances that require me to dress away in hotel rooms (or a storage shed I have rented in my home city) but it works for me, at least for the time being.

Michelle

[rachael.davis]

Exactly. A TG version of Anderson Cooper or sex and relationship advice columnist Dan Savage, perhaps.

Then again, we've already heard from Chaz Bono, who not only wrote a book about his life journey so far, but also gave an especially good account of himself on "Dancing With the Stars." A very positive role model, indeed.

I think "Savage Love" would do more harm than good, Dan Savage's columns kind of creep me out.

[rachael.davis]

Cannot disagree with anything that Leslie said about our situation. However, the gay/lesbian situation was not brought into the mainstream by the loud proud shouting expositons, IMHO. It was brought into mainstream reality by kind thoughtful caring gays and lesbians going about their daily life in the best exemplary manner, showing all that they really are good citizens, and great people in their own right. Sure, every once in a while a good shout out is cathartic for the soul, but it does not sway public opinion.

Now, it is much more difficult for us, because as we go through our daily life being good fathers, husbands, citizens, the public really has no way of knowing, so it is harder to change their perceptions. Catch 22 at work. This will be slow, but we all just need to be the best person we can be at all times and hope to catch some individuals eye and make a good impression.

Barbara

Just for the heck of it, the Stonewall riot in NYC started when cops decided to toss a crossdresser/gay bar. The quiet reasoned arguements started well after a group of Transgendered women did say "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore"
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/eres...w25/case1.html

[Kristy Snow]

Great posting and excellent viewpoint. I think all girls needs a place to begin, where they feel most comfortable with themselves before facing the public eye.

Kristy

[suzy1]

Freddy said in here post “you’re TELLING me that there is something wrong with me”

And that is what seems so wrong with some member’s comments here.
You don’t know freddy or me personally. You can’t possibly say how we feel or think or if we are intelligent strong happy balanced people that do not need any advice from you. [I know I am freddy, how about you?]

And yet from reading some of the comments here and talking to individuals via P.M.s it seems clear to me that trying to get some of you to understand the simple point that I dont need to go out is imposable.

Varonica, you ask me “what is my reason for not going out?” I have told you before but I will tell you again, I don’t have a need to go out. This needs repeating, I DON’T HAVE A NEED TO! I don’t want to. And no, I am not being negative, I am not being naïve, or clueless, I am just being me. Get it? ME! I am a person that needs no help or advice from someone that tells me, yes tells me! what’s good for me. Who tells me that in a few years time I will change like you did Varonica. I won’t! So have you got it now? I have to assume you still haven’t but I live in hope.

Let me apologize for getting a bit heated. It’s just that when the same member [s] keep preaching to me about how experienced they are and how much I need there advice and how they know that I want to go out really which I so do not that it gets irritating. [A weakness on my part I know, I have a short fuse but I’m working on it, I really am]

What can I say? It’s wonderful that some go out dressed. It’s also a shame that some do not go out but really want to. They have there reasons.

But could some of you just stop telling me why I stay in my closet. I know why, I have a reasonably good brain in my head and its working surprisingly well at the moment.

Sorry I just got carried away here and I have no hard feeling for any one.
Others have a rant sometimes now its Suzy’s turn.

P.S. Veronica please don’t pick this one to pieces and tell me all the reasons why you are right and I am wrong there’s a good girl.

SUZY

[Ceri Anne]

Yes, I am closeted. Yes I take most but not all my pictures in hotel rooms because I travel all the time and it is most convienent. When I am home, I'm usually doing other chores that need to be done. But, I still go out in public dressed whenever I can. I love it. It is exciting, yet I like smooth skin, the feel of heels, and flowing fabricks swishing over my body. I also enjoy a tight sexy mini skirt. I am straight, but have for years been vocal about peoples rights to be who they are. I may become less closeted in the future, but for now there are too many other issues on the table. As for the neighbor, we are friends, but I don't know his fetishes and he doesn't need to know mine.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Veronica, you have a lot to say, and you take a lot on yourself.

No I didn't, and others in this thread said the same thing I did. I've just seen more crap and am bitchier about it.

You're displaying what I call "the St. Paul Syndrome": what is true of me is true of everybody, and what will save me will save everybody. Paul was wrong.

apples and oranges. Religion and trans, not the same thing. You've seen the repitition right? The same situations and concepts come up over and over here, right? Patterns of behavior, archetypes of transpeople? Very little here is new under the sun. Any veteran of USENET could tell you that.

Life isn't so simple, and people aren't so easily reduced to formulas.

Ever hear of Occam's Razor? I shave my legs with it all the time. I believe in simplicity. If we see a situation that's the same as something we've seeen before..many many times....why not try solutions that have been proven effective in practice.

I'll decide for myself who "my people" are. A lot of them may be trans, a lot of them may not be. I don't buy my friends in packets.

I'm sorry, but the haters aren't going to let you choose. Besides there's strenght in numbers.

I'll wait and see, Veronica. I'll wait and see.

Don't wait too long, life will pass you by.

Thanks for the ....

Poor little Suzy

Right, crack a joke, make a sarcastic comment... That doesn't change the fact that 13 years ago...I could have wrote what you did because I was like you. You may not understand this...but I am saying the things I do because I want things to be better for everyone. I want there to be a day when someone like you could wear a dress to go shopping at Waitrose/Sainsbury/Tesco, or shop high street, or go to a game of footy, or just head down for a pint at the pub....without it being a big deal.

Really, is it fun being all dressed up and no place to go? if dressing is all you need, why post pictures. The pictures are there to show yourself and say "here I am", I exist...at least on a subconscious level.

You alienate many members by calling crossdressing a “hobby.”

Well, at least we agree on that.

Sounds a lot like “Lead, follow, or get out of the way!” doesn’t it?

Yes... so either lead, follow or get out of the way.

I’ll never be proud (since I hate that overtly male term),

As a feminist, I am deeply offended by such a chauvinistic statement. Are you saying that women don't feel pride for themeselves and their accomplishments? "Pride" isn't a male term or emotion, it belongs to everyone. 1950 called, and it want's it's gender stereotypes back.

and I’ll never let anyone tell me I have to be OUT just because it will improve their perception of themselves.

No one is saying "have" they're saying that it's "better" and that you "should" there's a difference.

and that involves not listening to self-righteous blowhards who feel the need to step up on the nearest soapbox, ABOVE us all, and rant about how they have been mistreated by society.

Umm Frederique....consideing how often you write[size="2"] "society hates us and we must hide my dear sweeties and revel in our effeminancy and not let people pop our balloons" [/size]threads.... you are the one doing that.

I am at peace with myself, doing what I do, HOW I like to do it, and your way is not MY way, get it?

If you are at peace...why write so much complaining about the peole who go out? and how society hates us? Why then ignore people simply because they disagree with you, like Leslie or me?

The author of that post specializes in such things. Thanks SO much for the encouragement…

I'm playing the "bad cop", Freddy, no one else seems willing to do it.

You may want to pick your people but unfortunately, we humans hang from the frayed end of circumstance and our people are often chosen for us by the greater social construct.

Right.

Just because Veronica is kinda bitchy doesn't mean she's wrong or even misguided.

Ouch!

Just because a bunch of us endorse coming out doesn't mean we think everybody should do it OUR way.

Right.

Being closeted is a personal choice and I have no issue with it unless you are a closeted CD, or queer, or whatever and are actively working to undermine the advancement of my civil rights. That is the biggest rub for me because I know that closet queens are the most anti-gay people out there.

And that's my basic point as well.

It's hard if not impossible to accept yourself as gay and then actively campaign against the rights of your community, but for some reason it's much easier if you just don't acknowledge your own gayness.

Being a closet CD is the same.

Yep.

Than you can come on here and fight with a whole new group of sisters. ;-)

Yes, that's why we get so much of the same stuff and repetition, over and over.. It's a vicious cycle.

First let me say "I am NOT gay" (but my boyfriend is). OK cheap shot at bad humor

That was funny.

Ouch

ha ha ha ha

If you read the stories here you start to see a pattern and often that pattern has pain associated with it. Pain hurts. But if someone says "don't do that" maybe you can avoid it.

It's what I always say: Prevention prevention prevention.

But there are far more who dream and wish to go out but are stymied by fear, fear of things that are not there. Fear of what they imagine will happen, and it is often the worst case scenario. Fear because they have been taught to fear.

Indeed, that's another basic point to keep emphasizing.

And when one sees themselves as being different or wrong or bad and they perpetuate it, either consciously or unconsciously, they do make my life as I am harder. We don't choose to be members of minorities who are somehow held back, but we can work to make it stop.

Exactly.

If everyone here agreed it would be a boring "what color are you panties" site .

Nooooooo not more "color of pnaties" threads! (And yes, I intentionally mistyped "pnaties"...it's an AF thing, (dates from USENET AF)

great post and yes we should do all that and the other, but like many have said is it that easy?

It's very scary and that makes it hard, I understand this. Self acceptance is something you have to work for.

Oh no. It isn't easy at all. Self acceptance is one of the hardest things you can ever do.

Yep.

Accept it, own it, embrace it. I promise you it is hard, but I also promise that loving yourself is worth every ounce of pain it takes to get there.

Yes, I concur.

It is not easy, but when has something worthwhile ever been easy?

Right.

Well this thread has restored my faith a little bit.

Melissa, Lorileah, and Veronica. . .love you girls!

Debby

Love ya too!

That’s fine and dandy if you ARE a transgendered person, but let’s not assume that the CD in the motel/hotel room, beset with alleged shame and struggling to express himself is transgendered – there are plenty of MtF crossdressers who dress as women, but they do not identify as female.

Why why why do you keep conflating transgender and transsexual....they're not the same thing. We are using "transgender" in the umbrella sense that applies to us all...not just referring to TS's.

Our boy in the motel is doing the best he can, under the circumstances, so please leave him alone so he can find himself, or herself, or at least derive some momentary pleasure from his crossdressing.

So crossdressing...alone...in a tiny hotel room, being afraid of stepping outside the door.... is "fun"? Compared to that...actually interacting in the world en femme even as a crossdresser is like frakkin Disney World of fun.

I remember a time gone by when I could crossdress in peace without all of this TG rhetoric clouding my mind,

You're being facetious. You say you know who you are...but then you say the rhetoric clouds your mind. Which is it? Make up your mind.

I live in a world where boys who identify as boys cannot be girls – not now, not ever, so I have to be very creative in my “approach” to this world.

Such a limited sad world. I live in a world where boys who identify as boys can be girls. They can also go out to the closest MAC store and get a makeover, or go to the local salon en femme if they want to. They can also tell their best friend they like girly things, or their mother. Their mother or sister might even intentionally buy them girly things as gifts.

There was a movie called the Matrix... co-written and co-directed by a transwoman, Lana Wachowski...(who was living as male at the time of the films making). There's a quote that applies:

Neo: I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid... you're afraid of us. You're afraid of change. I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this phone, and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see. I'm going to show them a world without you. A world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries. A world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you.

Just like the heroes in the motel and hotel rooms, I know my limits,

What limits are those? Why should there be any limits? They are self-imposed you know...why don't you break them.

since I’m not TG,

There you go again. You ARE TG in the umbrella sense...don't you get it? Are you being intentionally obtuse about this? When Lorileah, Badtranny and I say "transgender" we're not saying "transsexual, understand that so at least perhaps we can be using the same terminology.

Transgendered is NOT the same as transsexual. It does include even the most transient CD's. Even a guy who dresses as a female for fun is transgendered...by definition that we use here at the very least. This is part of the issue when "we" don't even use the same terms in the same manner.

Exactly.

But there are so many here who daily complain they cannot do something. They cannot wear the clothes (and women can how unfair!), they cannot go outside, they cannot dress as they wish, they cannot do whatever. To those, the ones who want more than what they believe they have, then get out. The world does not stop.

And Freddy is one of those very people!

Think for a minute. Why does one take photos of oneself in a hotel room if they are satisfied with the status quo? Would they not just dress and then undress?

Exactly...they want at least something that "shows" what they are.

And since we seem to be now going in circles,

And the pattern repeats. :-)

Goodness you are defensive with a capital D.

Defensive with a capital D, That rhymes with B that stands for "balloon popping" :-)

Just the opposite actually, and when I used the term TG I was using it in the umbrella sense of all gender variant people.

See?

Have you been reading my whole posts because I make it pretty clear that the crux of this whole issue is self acceptance.

I believe that when one truly accepts oneself...that's when the closet becomes restricting.

I believe strongly (and possibly wrongly) that shame and humiliation are born from self hate.

I don't think you're wrong at all.

I think that acknowledging to like minded people that you enjoy cross-dressing is not the same as accepting yourself and in fact sites like this can be dangerous to the psyche because they can forestall or prevent self acceptance because they let the person believe that because they participate in forums that they have accepted who they are.

Very good point.

The ONLY thing I keep coming back to is self acceptance. I know it sounds trite, but when you really achieve it, you have a whole different idea about yourself. Purging for example doesn't just stop, it begins to seem ridiculous.

Right again.

And you are right when you say that society will lump us all together. But that doesn't mean that society will always be right to do so.

Doesn't matter....what matters is the reality "on the ground"...the reality that we have to deal with that they DO lump us together. Saying we shouldn't is futile...we work with what we have.

And so if someone is "b***, but not wrong or misguided," well, she's still a b***. People can be right and on the right road without being bitchy.

I deal with the reality of things...I use the methods that work. I've tried "nice" and it works...for some...but there are a lot of transfolks that need to have these concepts we've discussing figuratively knocked into their heads...because otherwise...they just don't get it and keep engaging in self-destructive behavior and feeling pain and anguish. I am the "bad cop", no one else is doing it.

And this sets aside the question as to whether she is actually right.

I am...picky...about my words...and I don't say things unless there is a very high probability of them being accurate. Or to be blunt...you're a newbie with less than a year on these boards, I'm an oldbie...a few years from now, but hopefully sooner,...you'll understand what I'm getting at. Besides...myself, Lorielah and Melissa the Badtranny are saying the EXACT SAME THING. I'm just being bitchy because I have less patience for wasting time with niceties these days. Time's finite...time's a wastin...don't let lost opportunity pass you by.

Veronica says she has lots of experience.

In the trans online community...yes.

Here's what I've learned from my experience: there's truth and then there's truth. There's a bitchy sort of truth, if that's what you're interested in. But if you want the genuine article, look for beauty, look for depth. Bitchiness doesn't impress me in the least.

Truth is truth, it just comes in various wrappers...including bitchy ones. I'm the "bad cop", others play "good cop" it's an effective combination and I'm all about "using what works"

Veronica

[suzy1]

O.K. Varonica, I give up. [Bangs head agonised wall]

[Foxglove]

O.K. Varonica, I give up. [Bangs head agonised wall]

Me, too, Suzy. I've been having lots of happy thoughts lately. Why let a "friend" spoil them?

This is why I always reserve the right to decide for myself who my friends are. Nobody tells me, "We're in this together!" I'll make up my own mind.

This week I put a number of my cisfriends to the test: they passed with flying colors. It has absolutely astonished me.

So am I right in reserving for myself the right to decide who my friends are?

Best wishes, Annabelle

[VeronicaMoonlit]

O.K. Varonica, I give up. [Bangs head agonised wall]

Suzy, if you check the quote reference...I wasn't responding to the post you asked me not to respond to...I was composing my post when you posted that. I won't respond to that one.

This is why I always reserve the right to decide for myself who my friends are. Nobody tells me, "We're in this together!" I'll make up my own mind.

You're being facetious. Friends and community are not the same thing and you can't apply the same rules to both. You pick your friends but you're stuck with the community you got. But I do understand that UK and Irish crossdressers don't have the same sense of community as we do over here.

This week I put a number of my cisfriends to the test: they passed with flying colors. It has absolutely astonished me.

Why would it astonish you, haven't you seen that the "world doesn't end when you're open about this"? That's basically what we've been saying in this thread and you just proved us right. You just came out and it was a good thing, wasn't it?

Veronica

[Foxglove]

This is why I always reserve the right to decide for myself who my friends are. Nobody tells me, "We're in this together!" I'll make up my own mind.

You're being facetious. Friends and community are not the same thing and you can't apply the same rules to both. You pick your friends but you're stuck with the community you got. But I do understand that UK and Irish crossdressers don't have the same sense of community as we do over here.

Veronica

As I said, Veronica,

This is why I always reserve the right to decide for myself who my friends are. Nobody tells me, "We're in this together!" I'll make up my own mind.

And if you want to play semantics and change "friends" to "community", my position is the same. You can accept that or not.

And now you're commenting on Ireland and the UK from Central Illinois? As I said, Veronica, you take a lot on yourself.

Annabelle