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Thread: Attacking and Challenging Members - Fair Game or Not?

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  1. #11
    Valley Girl Michelle789's Avatar
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    Anne, I love your post!!! I think you raised some interesting points here.

    I think there needs to be a balance between being nice and being truthful. Many people may either sugar-coat things, or tend to say things with and intent and tone of belittling and trying to hurt others. I have personally experienced both. What bugs me isn't people being objective and telling me the truth. I want that. I want someone who can tell me the realities of transition, of whether or not I need FFS, and the realities of getting FFS. What I don't need is someone who gives me objective feedback and then goes and brags about how hot she is. This has never happened to me on the forum, but it happened to me with someone I know in real life. It really irritated the shit out of me and made me feel like crap. I was seeking out objective advice from someone who knows me in person about my face. I never asked them to brag about how hot they are or how many guys keep hitting on them. It's really irritating. Fwiw, I don't think this person is that good looking, at least not IMHO. I've seen far better looking transwoman than her who have never said anything hurtful to me. But it still gets to me. It's really hurtful and not necessary.

    I've also had people on the forum who have attacked me and accused me of being not real. I've been accused of being a troll, and I have received hate mail. I have also received lots of genuine support and sound, objective, advice from this forum. I believe that most people here are sincere and come with the intent of helping out other people. This kind of belittling and attacking goes on both on the forum and in real life trans communities.

    Living in fantasy land is indeed dangerous, and transition is very serious stuff. You really can lose a lot, not to mention the hefty price tag on this. However, we have to understand that we're all different human beings, with different needs, and different levels of dysphoria. What works for one person may not work for another.

    The reality is that some of us may have easier goes at transition and some of us may have tougher times.

    Some of us will lose all our friends, some of us will lose very few friends.

    Some of us will lose our jobs and even careers, while some of us may not only keep our jobs but make our best salary since transitioning.

    Some of us will pass just by putting on a wig, makeup, and women's clothes. Some of us will needs 2-3 years HRT to pass. Some of us will need HRT plus FFS to pass. Some of us will never pass.

    Some of us can easily change our names and gender markers, some of us can't do it so easily.

    Some of us have such bad dysphoria we may need the whole package of surgeries and procedures: HRT, facial hair removal, FFS, BA, and SRS. Some of us elect to live as women no HRT, facial hair removal, FFS, BA, or SRS. Some of us fall in the middle of the spectrum. HRT & facial hair removal, but no surgeries. Some of us may need HRT, facial hair removal, and SRS, but no FFS or BA. Some of us may need FFS but not SRS.

    We all have different circumstances and personal needs dictating how we go about our transition timelines. Some of us may just go full-time from day one. Some of us may switch back and forth for a year or so before going full-time. Some of us go full-time before starting HRT. Some of us need a year of HRT before going full-time.

    Some of us are in professions where our chances of losing our jobs are slim. Others work in professions that are both transphobic and sexist.

    As transwomen, we face both sexism and transphobia.

    The most we can do is to prepare everyone for the reality of transition. What actually happens is literally YMMV. YMMV varies not only with what happens to us with our personal transition related circumstances, but also with HRT results, and facial hair removal results, and surgery results.

    We have to recognize that not everyone is fortunate enough to live in a state where they can change their name & gender easily, or that many of us can't afford it. We have to recognize that there may be TSes who need FFS and SRS but may never have the finances to pay for it.

    We have to understand that some of us either are genetically blessed and don't need FFS, or that some of us just don't care whether or not we pass and can live with masculine facial features.

    We have to understand that some people may not change their names or genders because they need a job, or have a difficult decision to make on whether or not to keep your birth last name.

    Some of us keep our birth last name, while others change it.

    Some of us know we're TS and are going to transition. Others are still questioning. Some of us may switch back and forth for many years before finally deciding to go on HRT and transition.

    Some of us live in trans unfriendly states like Texas. Some of us live in more trans friendly states like California.

    There may be a lucky transwoman who lives in a state like Texas that loses very little. Even in L.A. there are transwomen who lose a lot.

    None of this is black and white. The real problem I see here is a lack of empathy. A lack of understanding that everyone of us is on a different path. I see that some of us fail to put ourselves in the other person's shoes, and we assume that all transitions are the same. We forget that everyone's personal circumstances are different, and that we don't all need the same procedures or surgeries. Most of the fighting I've seen here, including some that I have been involved with, are caused by a lack of understanding the other person's perspective.

    Fact vs Opinion & Reading Comphrehension

    There's a difference between stating what my experience is and what worked for me, and telling others that you have to do this, and being rigid about your beliefs. Your beliefs are only your experience, not necessarily fact of life. Do you remember from reading comprehension in school when they gave you "Fact or Opinion" quizzes, to decide what is a fact or an opinion. Maybe it's time to seriously brush up on our reading comprehension skills. Maybe it's time to learn what the difference between a fact and an opinion is.

    Here are some examples.

    Electrolysis can cost around $10,000. This is a fact, because it's measurable and can be backed up. You can actually look at your receipts and prove how much you actually paid for electrolysis.

    You have to change your name and gender to be considered RLE or full-time. This is an opinion. There is nothing to actually back this up. Even WPATH doesn't state this.

    You need to be on HRT for at least one year to be considered for SRS. This is a fact. It's in the WPATH standards. Most SRS surgeons require this.

    You'll never pass. Opinion. It's pretty difficult for someone to predict the future and tell them whether or not they'll be passing 3 years later or not.






    One more warning. Year 1 of transition isn't necessarily the hardest. Some of us may find year 2 or 3 to be the hardest. You may not lose all your friends or jobs right away. I have heard of TSes whose friends initially accepted them, and within a year, they were all gone. I have heard of TSes who initially kept their jobs, and lost them 10 months later. Sometimes you may get clocked and mis-gendered more after a year on HRT than you did before HRT. This is the biggest warning I can give everyone, is that just because your transition looks like it's going smoothly at first doesn't mean it's going to stay that way. A smooth early transition can turn into an ugly mess later on.


    Social Ettiquite

    I want to add this about belittling. If someone asks you for advice on whether or not they should get FFS. The best way to tell them is to point out what needs work, but also remind them of what they do have going for them. "Yes, your jawline looks masculine and jaw reconstruction or recontouring would help. However, you have great cheekbones." Don't tell them things like "you're ugly and will never pass" or "you'll never be beautiful". Don't give them constructive criticism, and then brag about how good looking you are and how much male attention you get. This will only make the other person feel like crap. Please refrain from bragging about yourself.

    If someone walks up to you and asks you for advice on clothes or passing, it's okay to give constructive criticism if asked for. It's not okay to just blurt out something to someone when they never asked for constructive criticism.

    Do: If someone asks you "Is my skirt length too short?" you may reply "Yes, I think you should go with something longer and more age appropriate"

    Don't: Just walk up to someone and say "you're dressed too inappropriately for your age"

    Do: If someone asks you "Should I wear a dress or pants?" you may reply "Pants is more appropriate for this situation" or "A dress is more appropriate for this situation"

    Don't: Just blurt out "Are you going to wear normal clothes to the meeting next time?"

    Don't: Say that "dresses are for cross-dressers, pants for for real TSes" - not only is blurting out something to another person wrong, but women, including transwomen, do wear dresses and skirts. And women wear pants too. There is no rule saying what to wear, other than maybe a situational expectation or workplace dresscode.

    Do: If someone asks you "Is my beard visible?" you may say "Yes, I can see it"

    Don't: Just blurt out to someone "90% of people clock you on your beard and don't say anything"

    Do: If someone asks you "Why am I not passing?" you may say "I can see your facial hair in certain lighting" but also remind them of what they do have. Remind them, if it's true "but you have nice small hands and feet"

    Don't: If someone who doesn't pass says they were ma'amed, don't say "Oh, people must be really polite these days." This is a subtle put down that reminds them that they obviously don't pass.

    None of the above incidents happened to me on the forum. Every single one happened to me in real life from other transwomen in my local trans community. I am mentioning this because this stuff may go on on the forum. I just want to educate people in the etiquette on how to address people in these situations. We have to find a balance between stating objective criticism and hurting someone else's feelings. Many times our approach is what causes others to get hurt. This will serve us all good both on this forum and in real life.




    Finally, I just want to say that not every one of us has big hands and feet. Some of us may just be lucky to have smaller and feminine shaped hands and feet.



    The key takeaways from this post.

    1. Recognize that everyone's experiences and needs are different, and try to understand the other person's perspective.

    2. Understand that there is no right or wrong way to transition, nor to be a woman.

    3. Brush up on your reading comprehension skills and learn how to distinguish between a fact and an opinion.

    4. Exercise good social ettiquite both on this forum and in real life when addressing other people about their TS related issues.



    Edit: I'll add one more thing. I think people often feel that when they've been oppressed or dealt with tough circumstances that "tough love" is the only way to go. Many people feel that they've experienced enough harshness from the world that they need to project harshness back onto others. Sometimes people feel that in their mind that "tough" or "belittling" behavior is the only way to survive. Some people just can't see the light. My father has this same exact attitude. He believes that it is somehow his duty to be a dick towards me. Take my word. If anything is going to cause you to be mistreated, aside from masculine features, inappropriate clothing, male voice, or lack of confidence, I can guarantee you that a harsh "tough love" or cruel attitude will only bring cruelty back to you, and that a nice, sweet, softer attitude will bring kindness back to you.

    I will say that honestly that from my own experience if dealing with real life TSes, that the ones who are nicer, friendlier, softer personalities with better social ettiquette tend to have a much easier time at transition than do people with tough, harsh, and critical personalities. "Tough love" attracts more "tough love" and tenderheartedness attracts tenderheartedness.

    I'm not saying that bad things don't happen to good people. Not at all. But if you just focus on hardship and believe that being tough is the only way to go in life, you're going to have a tough life. A tougher life than those who portray a softer, gentler approach to life. Because your attitudes are reflected back at you. People treat you based on what you put out.
    Last edited by Michelle789; 08-26-2015 at 08:42 PM.
    I've finally mastered the art of making salads. My favorite is a delicious Mediterranean salad.

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