To Be or Not To Be. Isn’t that the Question?

I’m starting this new thread but using some of Tinkerbell’s quotes from another thread in the MtF forum so as to not hijack the original thread. As usual, Tinkerbell’s candor provides CDers useful insight. The subject I’m addressing is choice.

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Originally Posted by Tinkerbell-GG

Funny you write this is as I would actually suggest that many wives do believe their husbands are choosing to be crossdressers!... As I said, I suspect many new GGs wonder if her partner isn't just refusing to stop dressing because he doesn't want to… Despite that, there will always be this little nagging doubt at the back of my mind that my H did choose this, that it's only compulsive because he allows it.

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Tinkerbell’s statement rings very personal for me. My wife believes I choose to CD. She has told me this. I think my wife’s statement really means that I can stop CDing when and if I really want. So please do. I’ve thought much about her comments and actually changed my mind from my initial response to her.
I agree that CDers choose to crossdress - in context of this reply. In its most fundamental essence, people put on clothes for protection, warmth, and not be naked. A man can and does choose to put on either men or women’s clothes to satisfy these basic functions. However, the gender associated type of clothes a person dons can transcend these basic functions as to the purpose of what and why particular clothes are chosen to wear. Most GGs put on female associated clothes because they identify with the female gender. No one thinks this is odd or unacceptable behavior because their sex is female as well. This is considered ‘normal’ because there is an alignment of sex and gender identity and all is well with broad societal expectations. However, societal expectations are upset when I choose to not put on wingtips but rather slip into a pair of heels because the gender identification of the shoes and of my sexual assignment does not match. I have a fluid and somewhere on the gender spectrum gender identity. As individuals, we have no choice of our sex at birth just like eye or skin pigmentation color. We also have no choice as to our gender identity which is as ingrained and fundamental as being right or left handed. Sex is biological whereas gender is personality. This distinction is substantiated by Merriam-Webster’s gender definition “the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex”. Note all three adjectives in this definition are mental characteristics (“cultural” is built from mental processes). Before some people jump to wrong conclusions about this definition using the words “with one sex”, this definition does not mandate binary gender. Instead it says “typically associated with one sex” e.g. sex is (usually) binary – not necessarily gender.
I offer a thought exercise which may help non-accepting heterosexual women better understand the CD mindset. What if you (a heterosexual woman) were to pull your hair back (if long), adorn a fake mustache, and put a sock in the crotch while wearing men’s jeans? The point is to appear as male as you can and look in a full length mirror. Do you think you may feel awkward and uncomfortable because your image didn’t match your gender? That’s how men who are somewhere on the gender spectrum other than fully and only male sometimes feel when their image doesn’t match their gender. That is why I CD. I don’t claim to say that’s why every man CDs because I can only speak for myself.
So while I choose to CD, it is to align how I think and feel about myself (my identity) with my outward presentation. The same occurs when ‘normal’ heterosexual women dress and appear as women. Heterosexual women dress and appear as women for the same reason that many MtF crossdressers do.
Yes, I choose to CD similarly for the same reason I pick up a fork and eat with my right hand. I could choose to eat with my left hand but that’s not how I’m wired; it’s not my personality. Why should I since I’m right handed? Conversely, ‘normal’ heterosexual women could choose to dress as men but it’s not their personality. Why should they when their gender is completely female? So while the clothes we put on may be a choice, negating one’s gender identity is not – without consequences. Denying one’s gender identity comes with emotional stress. From many posts on this forum it appears the amount of stress varies from mild to suicidal depending on the individual. So while I’m choosing to CD, please understand what I’m really choosing is to live authentically and minimize personal trauma.
Some GGs may not believe in the concept of fluid gender identities or that gender is a spectrum along a male and female scale. Rather, they believe gender is binary like sex. I completely understand why because that is how most people are raised (culture) and they rarely find themselves in a position, or need, to question their beliefs. However, for the unfortunate wives of men who revealed during marriage, this surprise certainly puts them in the undesirable position to at least consider their gender beliefs. Some GGs reading this forum may be questioning their beliefs about gender or seeking some kind of rational explanation why their male SO enjoys appearing female. I believe evidence that indeed gender is a spectrum rather than binary is the fact that some men will risk intense marital discourse, ridicule, good reputation, and loss of job and friends and family for CDing. Clearly the desire to align gender image to gender feelings must be deeply ingrained in the fabric of personality because why would otherwise ‘normal’ and responsible men partake?
Perhaps it is easier for GGs who do not believe gender is a spectrum to believe CDing is a mental disorder. But don’t become too satisfied with that explanation. The correct psychological term is Gender Dysphoria (the term Gender Identity Disorder is being removed from the latest DSM revision). The difference between a disorder and dysphoria is stark. From Wikipedia, “Dysphoria is a profound state of unease or dissatisfaction. In a psychiatric context, dysphoria may accompany depression, anxiety, or agitation.”. Homosexuality was diagnosed in the DSM as an illness until 1973, and conditions pertaining to homosexuality were entirely removed in 1987. Since “…All psychiatric diagnoses occur within a cultural context,” said Jack Drescher, a member of the APA subcommittee working on the [DSM] revision… ” explains why homosexuality was removed from the DSM as the gay community has gained more societal support. Certainly more support that the T in LGBT. Perhaps in the future our culture may become more supportive to CDing and GD will be completely removed from the DSM as well. The ASA changing our ‘condition’ from a disorder to dysphoria is a movement toward that direction. IMHO, this substantiates the concept that gender is indeed a spectrum and it is only our present culture’s attitude toward CDing that keeps GD in the DSM.
With this in mind:

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Originally Posted by Tinkerbell-GG

And I'm still here thinking 'it's clothing, for crying out loud. You're a grown man so just stop it already!'

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For me, it’s not just about the clothes. It’s is a matter of self-identity and harmony – the significance of CDing goes way beyond “just clothes”. Clothes, cosmetics, etc. are an outward appearance of an inward condition. Some people may wear a jersey of a football team they support. They identify as supporters of the team and proudly wear the faux uniform. I understand this analogy breaks down comparing the potential consequences of wearing a jersey and CDing. Rarely does a wife become concerned about friends’ ridicule for their husband wearing a particular football jersey - except, maybe a husband wearing a Redskins jersey to a Cowboys game in Dallas. A CD’s GG may understandably fear the risk of ridicule to their SO, themselves, or both. Believe me, as a CDer, the risk of social ridicule is well understood.
Also:

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Originally Posted by Tinkerbell-GG

As it currently stands, most women end up married to a crossdresser without realising, until some shocking moment arrives many years after the wedding day. The choice was never given. That is not a healthy foundation for marriage and in my mind, definitely reason enough for the relationship to end if the wife chooses. It doesn't matter that maybe her husband hadn't figured himself out before that moment.

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Since gender is a product of personality rather than biological assignment, it can take some time for people whose sex doesn’t completely align with their gender to figure it out. Clearly our personality develops over time. I’m certainly not the same person when I married 35 years ago. I believe it takes longer for some of us to understand our gender does not perfectly align with our sex primarily because we must first question cultural ‘norms’ to the contrary. Perhaps I’m just dense but it took me more than 50 years and six sessions with a psychologist to understand that I have a female identity as well as male. I didn’t have a clue about answers of gender identity when I exchanged marriage vows as a young adult. I didn’t even know there was a question to be asked! So for me, it wasn’t as much as my interest changed as much as a prolonged journey of self-discovery. While it may not matter “that maybe her husband hadn't figured himself out before that moment” as far as the adjustment some SOs are asked to accept or the SO’s feelings of beginning their marriage with a lie, it certainly may matter regarding the young and naive husband’s gender understanding and motive. I had no idea my quirky behavior was the result of deep rooted identity when I exchanged vows long ago. In fact, my CD then was minimal then but has progressed as my personality continued to evolve. If I had the understanding of my CD then as I do now, there is no question I would have certainly revealed all of my gender identity before the nuptials. I am so envious of some of the young men who have already figured this out. There was no internet in my early days to discover that I wasn’t the only man on earth who had feminine thoughts and expression. Likely the road for them will be smoother than those, like myself, who came before.
So, in summary, I choose to CD to preserve my sanity. But I also choose to taper my CDing activity within bounds that keeps my wife sane and in our home together while still providing me some relief from unbearable personal anguish. That sounds easy enough but it was a rough road reaching this milestone on both our parts. The journey is not over. I want more while she just wants her husband to ‘be fixed’. Finally, I completely understand many (most?) heterosexual wives do not want a CDing husband. As Tinkerbell stated, “It's not in our DNA to behave such a way. If we didn't prefer heterosexual men who present as men, we wouldn't be heterosexual women!”. I get that. The purpose of my post is not to minimize the preference of heterosexual women, rather provide my opinion on why some men such as myself CD. I believe it is also the feelings of many other men who forage here.

Whew! For me it's not that complicated. My CD activity is pure enjoyment for some complex reason that I gave up caring about a long time ago.

Oh! And yes I would wear a Redskins jersey to a cowboys game in dallas.

Carla, well that explains a lot about your answer. If you would wear a Redskins jersey to a Cowboys game in Dallas then you are fearless!

To be or not to be beautiful?

Choosing to be a CD is like choosing to be handicapped in some way.
None of us choose to dress, we dress because we have to, if not in reality then in our minds.
Living a life without being a CD would sure be a lot easier and cheaper.
It’s not a question of choosing: the choice was made the day we were born.

I didn't choose to be right handed. I could choose to train my left hand, but I see no point in that.

I think the urge to cross dress is not a choice, but whether or not one actually does cross dress is a choice.

I did not choose to have these feelings, but I do choose to go with them. I don't see anything wrong with it and it makes me a better person as I am far happier and nicer.

Thanks for explaining all this, Samantha. The part about a GG looking in the mirror dressed as a man and feeling discomfort as an example of how a CDer occasionally feels makes a lot of sense. I wonder why this happens to people? I get the woman or man born in the wrong body as really, they're still cisgendered if you think about it. It's this halfway point, this fluidity spoken of here, that I really can't fathom. I accept it is as you say, though, and after reading here I realise now that my H can't stop dressing. I also have to accept that I'll never really get it, too, and that's been one of the hardest parts of all this.

I also think (hope?) that most here understand that heterosexual women aren't usually wired to find crossdressing attractive? My H however, for the longest time, harboured a ridiculously male idea that inside every woman is a latent lesbian and that eventually I'd come around to intimacy with him dressed. I finally found a way for him to understand that this is complete nonsense and one of those boys locker room lies that needed immediate correcting, lol. So I asked him whether he was attracted to masculinity. Nope. Did he like women with moustaches because I could go buy one if he did? Hell no! What about women who bind their breasts or stuff bananas down their pants? He looked at me like I had three heads. Well, darling husband, when you ask that I find you attractive when dressed as a woman, imagine how you would feel if I came to bed dressed as a man. Would that turn you on?

It was amazing the clarity that came after that conversation as I'm convinced he became scared I might actually do this, haha. He's definitely not one of the crossdressers who fantasy about men when dressed. And I had quite good fun creating this visual in his head. Maybe it felt like a bit of payback for the visuals he's put in mine!

But I know this isn't a choice. It's difficult to understand and it can look pretty weird from this side of things, but so does much of human behavior so why is this any different? It is what it is. And with boundaries and respect, it can be worked with or around like many things in a marriage.

Thanks for sharing Samantha. :) x

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Originally Posted by Nadine Spirit

...I think the urge to cross dress is not a choice, but whether or not one actually does cross dress is a choice...

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I with Nadine on this except, not dressing really affects one's outward personality, negatively. With no outlet, it's like a rubber-band. Stretch it all you want until it breaks.

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Originally Posted by Tinkerbell-GG

....My H however, for the longest time, harboured a ridiculously male idea that inside every woman is a latent lesbian ...

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Tink, that cracks me up. Now, I can't defend your hubby BUT I will state that guys are really brought up thinking this. Never any proof given to us, but it's easy to believe what one WANTS to believe. Take care,

Samantha much of what you say I have to agree with .
Maybe most early CDers were born to live a life along a gender spectrum ! At concecption we are all born the same sex, the female line is progressive to birth and the male line is deviated enough to produce a functioning male for reproductive purposes. At birth and beyond the male is far more affected internally and externally than females, some traits show up early, as in my case and some take years to develop.
Men are stereotyped to be male so if we show signs of wanting to dress up or act feminine society is much harder on us than women if they act masculine.
Tinkerbell like many other GGs feel let down and lied to by their partners for not disclosing their Cding habits but many of us carry so much guilt and shame for much of our lives for something we can do nothing about.We try and hide it from ourselves on occasions because we can't come to terms with it let alone trying to explain it to others !
Tinkerbell wants to be in a normal relationship and not a confusing CDing nightmare ! The problem is women are also on a gender spectrum and some are more accepting than others. I had two relationships with GFs before I married that enjoyed and encouraged my CDing but when I married, I eventually felt rejected and confused because my wife didn't accept it ! Maybe I shouldn't have stayed in that relationship but we formed a good team in so many other ways but I think now after forty years of marriage my wife realises what I went through and is beginning to cut me a bit of slack !

Hi Samantha,

What a great post and very well thought out. It resonates loudly with what I went through . . . 32 years of repressing the female identity coupled with 25 years of marriage . . . conflict, emotional drain, implosion and finally admitting the truth and embracing that part of me. Fortunately my marriage survived and while my wife finds it odd at times, she sees me no different from the man she married 25 years ago, I just have a different way of expressing one of my identities. Now I truly believe that one of the reasons for this being that we do not mix "romance" with this portion of my identity. Specifically, I hold no illusion my wife is or will ever be attracted to me dressed "en femme" as she is heterosexual and desires the company of a man in that regard. I also ensure that "boy me" is there for her when it comes to vacations, going out and so forth. However, "girl me" is there as a friend when we do spend time together be it watching TV or just discussing things (but my core personality does not change).

You are right on in that we cannot change this if we tried. All one has to do is read the posts of those who purge, say goodbye and then return again. Putting it away, repressing it or whatever one chooses to do will work for a time but then it will catch-up become an emotional drain and bleed out in your personal life in some form or another . . . normally anger or depression. I also like your analogy of why it takes some of us a long time to in our marriage to come clean. Some will say it should be simple tell her at the beginning. However as you stated for some of us "we did not know" and it takes time to understand it ourselves and that can be years if not decades. Yes today, there is more tolerance and some here know going in and are up front. But I dare say for every one who knows at this precise moment in time there are probably three who don't and will not for some time.

Again great post.

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Originally Posted by Tinkerbell-GG

. . . My H however, for the longest time, harboured a ridiculously male idea that inside every woman is a latent lesbian and that eventually I'd come around to intimacy with him dressed.

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Ah Tink . . . you mean it is not all soft glow pillow fights in racy lingerie when GGs get together . . . darn locker room myths :D :battingeyelashes:

Hugs

Isha

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Originally Posted by CherylFlint

Choosing to be a CD is like choosing to be handicapped in some way.

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I sort of just don't comprehend this statement. There are a lot of societal impediments that come along with CD'ing but, once you except your true self, these are nothing more than price tags you remove from new lingerie. Except yourself, enjoy your life.

What I have a problem with is many had this need to cross dress and probably did for many years before they met their SO. Why would you hide that desire from your future spouse? I see all kinds of posts justifying crossdressing and how their SO's should accept them. We see post after post over the years where marriages end because of it. And they repeat the same thing, not disclosing before their next marriage and then wondering why doesn't my So accept it. I suspect that for many here it goes much deeper than just putting on woman's clothes. They are just not truthful with themselves or their spouses.

If you don't come clean with your girlfriend before you get married. Don't be that surprised when your wife wants out after she discovers your secret.

Nice dissertation Samantha... :) I'd agree with a lot of that, if not most...

I think there is much more to be discovered about gender and particularly about gender dysphoria. While this may explain those who ultimately transition or come close by living as a female, I still struggle with the nature of the dysphoria concept that presumably applies to occasional, non-fetish CDers (like me). I do feel that I have some part of this condition that drives me to do what I do, otherwise, why would I 'choose' to do something so stigmatised, potentially embarrassing and 'shameful' as this? There is a part of us that seems to be shouting: "I am not 100% male - I demand for this other gender in here to get some air time!!" - but I don't believe anyone can really explain that.

And I think there continues to be gross misunderstanding in mainstream society of sex, gender and sexuality and how the terms are often used interchangeably with little comprehension of the complexities involved. I still think we have a long ways to go with acceptance...

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Originally Posted by stefan37

What I have a problem with is many had this need to cross dress and probably did for many years before they met their SO. Why would you hide that desire from your future spouse? I see all kinds of posts justifying crossdressing and how their SO's should accept them...

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Stefan - I was completely (and still am, slightly) ashamed of the urges that make me do what I do. For many years it had remain suppressed and hidden - and still is hidden from my wife. When I married or had girlfriends too many decades ago, I had none of the knowledge that I have learned in the last 12 months... If you crossdressed you were a transvestite and a pervert - no ifs or buts... I would probably have felt less stigma being a recovering drug addict... at least that wasn't sexual. Why wouldn't I hide that desire, especially if I - as I could - successfully buried it and hid it for many years - I understand that perhaps you mean that in the context of CDers who then have an expectation for their SO or wife to be accepting... I don't have that expectation - quite the reverse - so it remains hidden... at least, to all but a few thousand, chosen few... ;) Surely you can understand that...? :)

Many folk here accept this is something innate - we are born with it... something genetic, perhaps even hereditary. If you were a GG seeking the best possible mate for your future progeny and you thought there was even a hint of a possibility this could be passed on to your children or future generations, how do you think you would view a CDer as a potential partner... :thinking: I'm sure that must cross the minds of some GGs and probably not unfairly so...

Katey x

I felt from an early age I was different. I had been crossdressing from age 5. My grandmother caught me in my mom's dress at 9. It was nit a topic that was discussed. I was brought up that being male has certain expectations and to vary from them was not a pleasant experience. I continue to crossdressing through my teenage years. I was serious with 2 girls. One in high school as I was starting college. We were very close and it appeared we might be together. I disclosed to her that I had a need to dress in woman's clothes. We broke up about a year later that had nothing to do with dressing. After college I met another woman and on our third date told her off my need to dress. She didn't understand and I would say was more tolerant than accepting. We were together 35 years. I am actively transitioning and have been full time over a year. That pushed her over the line and we will be divorced by the end of the first week in Oct.

The point is that I disclosed before we were married and she had the opportunity to decide if she wanted to bail or not. For whatever reason I think it is cowardly to not disclose and then try to justify why your spouse should stay with you when she finds out.

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Originally Posted by Katey888

This is something innate - we are born with it... something genetic, perhaps even hereditary. If you were a GG seeking the best possible mate for your future progeny and you thought there was even a hint of a possibility this could be passed on to your children or future generations, how do you think you would view a CDer as a potential partner...

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I'll confess to having those thoughts. My son (11 years old) came back from summer camp with amusing stories of wearing drag for the camp talent show -- including high heels. (He has become very impressed with my ability to walk in 4" heels -- he'd be even more impressed if he knew his dad can do it too!)

When I heard his camp stories, I started obsessing about the fact that half of his closet has been used for my extra suits, which I rarely wear. My son doesn't use that half of his closet, so it seemed like a logical place to store my suits. (That decision was made 8 years ago, when we moved in, and long before I knew about my husband's transgender issues.)

But I've read stories here about CDers who say they started by wearing their mom's clothes... And I went and hung male clothes there instead (his father's out-of-season shirts). I know it's not up to me to determine if my boy CDs, but I hate the idea that he'll tell my future daughter-in-law that it all started with wearing my clothes after I'd hung them in his closet.

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Originally Posted by JessM.

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But I've read stories here about CDers who say they started by wearing their mom's clothes... ... but I hate the idea that he'll tell my future daughter-in-law that it all started with wearing my clothes after I'd hung them in his closet.

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Jess, if it starts, it will not be with business suits. In particular if they are pants and jackets. Fear not, YOU are not and can not be the cause:-)

It was skirts and jackets... But you're probably right. Thanks for the reality check :-)

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Originally Posted by CherylFlint

Choosing to be a CD is like choosing to be handicapped in some way.
None of us choose to dress, we dress because we have to, if not in reality then in our minds.
Living a life without being a CD would sure be a lot easier and cheaper.
It’s not a question of choosing: the choice was made the day we were born.

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Your sample size of one (you) should not be extended to the entire population.
Your just plain wrong. Not all CDS are like you.

What is your response to someone who starts CDing, out of the blue, in their 60's? I don't think all CDers have a "latent", pent up need to CD. Maybe for some, it is just a distraction or fun thing to do. Not everyone should be painted with the same broad brush.

Stefan just one question. You criticise others for not being honest with their partners before marriage about their crossdressing. So did you disclose to your wife-to-be that you were going to end up transitioning? Yes I know that you can claim now that you were TS and didn't realise it back then, but I don't think it's fair to pass judgment on the choices others made in this regard, standing where you are.

And Cheryl I have to agree with you, I would also rather choose to not be a crossdresser. Life would just be so much easier for it. I think sometimes people take it as if we're expressing something for the whole community, when we're actually just expressing our own opinion, and then they take offence to it.

Good post Samantha, I identify with a lot you have said.

Very complicated stuff and as usual no single answer fits all. So here is my 2 cents worth of experience. I did not know I was a crossdresser when I married for the first time at age 23. I had a strong interest in female things and was very turned on by female underwear, but I had never fully dressed nor wanted to. It came on my in my 20s and 30s. So I did not disclose to my first wife before marriage, there wasn't anything to disclose. My first wife meanwhile knew she had been depressed since the onset of puberty but she was managing it well enough and she did not disclose before marriage either. Her depression matured into full-blown bipolar disorder.

By the time we were in our fifties neither one of us wanted to cope any longer with the weirdness of the other, not me with her depressions and rages, not her with my dressing to go out. Consequently post divorce I determined to declare who I now was before getting serious and I met my now-wife while dressed pretty. But my point is that some folks, men and women, don't disclose something material before marriage for very many good reasons. Then during marriage for whatever reasons we continue to grow and develop, and what was not obvious or even relevant becomes the main event. So you gotta roll with it, stay in the marriage under the current conditions, or go if you can't stand it. But neither party was wrong in not knowing at the outset what would happen to them over the ensuring 20 years.

This is the crux of the difficulty. If one looks at CDing as just about clothes...as some CDrs insist it is....then, of course one can choose not to dress. It seems obvious that for many of us, the need to dress as and present as female goes to our gender identity. Maybe by varying degrees, but fundamentally, we need to match up our inner and exterior selves, whether it's bi gender, blended gender, mostly female in a male body, or genuinely feeling that one is a woman, the presentation of ones self to the world is a basic act of identity.

Let me put this another way. When I see my reflection while in male mode...I see myself as incomplete. When I'm presenting as female, the person I see is complete. My inner and outer identities match.

That's a good question and to be honest I felt I was Ts. But I had no intention of transitioning. It was something that I felt could never happen. I would live out the rest of my life as a cross dresser. But things didn't work out the way my wife or I planned. I don't know why my GD manifested in such a way that I needed to transition. I was mitigating my GD through the use of alcohol. I wore woman's tops, jeans, colored mail polish and eyeliner. That doing work the freedom to dress when I needed mitigated my GD(which by the way I had no idea what it was, until I entered therapy). But regardless I did disclose to my wife the need to crossdress before we were married.

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Originally Posted by Isha

Ah Tink . . . you mean it is not all soft glow pillow fights in racy lingerie when GGs get together . . . darn locker room myths :D :battingeyelashes:

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Haha! Yes, the pillow fights! I had an ex boyfriend who seriously used to stand at the edge of the bedroom when ever one of my girlfriends came over and raise his eyebrows at the pillows as if expectantly waiting for it to happen. My friends and I actually had a laugh one day and contemplated teasing him by asking each other in front of him if we wanted to share a bed etc. But then we realised we'd just be feeding this myth and thought better of it. I'd bet though, if you asked him all these decades later, he (and every other man on planet earth) would still tell you that when they're not looking, all us women get together in our lingerie and giggle and play.

I bet my H is teaching our son this!!

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Tinkerbell: My H however, for the longest time, harboured a ridiculously male idea that inside every woman is a latent lesbian and that eventually I'd come around to intimacy with him dressed.

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I suppose that idea may come from the fact that women are often affectionate with each other, whereas most men can't stand showing such affection for each other.