The Honesty Conundrum

I think few would dispute that in an ideal circumstance a CD should be honest about their CDing early on.

Of course theres a lot of things that make a circumstance not ideal that many discuss here a lot already.. self-acceptance, the trust involved in coming out early, the risk of being outted publicly, fear of burdening the family etc.

But I think it's worth considering the broader issue.

If we say a CD should come out to their partner early, despite the dangers to the relationship, family, job, career etc...

Then shouldn't the CD also be honest to everyone? Shouldn't they be honest to Parents, children, siblings, cousins, workmates and on to cover everyone? Certainly some of these relationships are more important than others but shouldn't CDs be honest in all of them?

Shouldn't SO's? Shouldn't they risk their families, their friendships, their jobs even by being open about being in a rlationship with a CD (as well as any skeletons in their own closets)? Essentially if a SO thinks a CD should confess they are a CD despite the risk of others judgement should not the SO be willing to eqaullly share that burden?

But this drives me to a far stronger conclusion than simply avoiding hypocracy.

If an SO thinks that CDs should come out early, do they not have a responsibility to make it easier for all CDs to do so?

So if an SO thinks CDs should be out to them from the outset don't they have a responsibility for working towards transgender civil rights and social acceptance? The very things that would protect their partners job but also make it easier for future CDs to come out to their partners and at least make things easier on the next generation?

And then I consider the evidence that there is a genetic aspect to being transsexual and that the scientists behind many of these discoveries think this will be true for all forms of transgender. Which means that the children of CDs will have a greater chance of being CD/TS...

So then don't SOs have a responsibility to strive for TG rights and acceptance for their childrens or grandchildrens sakes?

This seems to me the consequences of concluding that CDs should be honest with their partners. What do you think?

Why do I have the feeling I'm entering a mine field? :nailbiting: :)


You mentioned valid reasons for a CD's reluctance to tell a potential partner: degree of self-acceptance, trust, fear of being outed or of burdening the family. But you did not mention the biggest fear of all, which is the fear of rejection and losing the partner.

We all know that the culture in which we live is homo/transphobic. Even though this is changing and people are becoming more open-minded today accepting gender and sexual variance, there are still many people who will not be able to embrace the lifestyle, including potential long-term partners. The point of telling her early on in the relationship would be to give her a chance to bow out if she feels this is something she cannot live with, rather than wait until they've fallen in love, or their lives are enmeshed financially and by becoming parents together. And if she has her own skeletons such as a history of physical and sexual abuse, addictions, compulsions, AIDS, etc, she needs to disclose this as well. If her potential CD partner feels he cannot live with her issues, he can bow out too.

I disagree that everyone can and should disclose everything to family, employers, friends, etc, unless the CD wants to live full time as a woman, in which case it becomes a necessity. If the person is a CD and not TS, and wants publicly to have the ability to switch back and forth, or to present always a non gender-binary appearance, and having disclosed this to his wife prior to marriage and having her support, and they both want to disclose to everyone all of her issues too, then by all means they should both share risking their jobs, family, friends, opportunities, etc. as well as taking risks that their children will have a difficult time with it while growing up. Chances are they will find their niche eventually and their lives will be happy, but they will have to prepare themselves for a tortuous road ahead. Some people will make the compromise by going out dressed not in their own backyards, by joining TG groups, by outing themselves to selected people, and contributing to the advancement of the cause that way.

On a different note, there IS a difference between being honest with a life-long partner and honesty with everyone else. We all know that an intimate, connected relationship cannot flourish without trust and honesty about the major issues or conditions. But it is also important ideally for the partners to share long-term goals and similar values, including spirituality or religious beliefs if they play an important part in their lives. If one partner plans to eventually become a missionary in a third world country and this does not fit in with the other partner's long range goals, their relationship will not last. Discussing these issues beforehand would certainly help towards preventing future irreconcilable differences once the flush or initial love has worn off.

As to telling others, maybe I am being idealistic, but there is a bond, a degree of connectedness between two people who choose to share their intimate lives that separates or elevates their relationship above other, more transient, arms-length relationships such as co-workers or friends. Bonds with parents, siblings, or children are deep, but the living arrangements are transient as well. After some 20 years, we do not share our intimate and daily lives with these loved ones. In many cases, people see parents, siblings, and grown children a few times per year. But, if a CD's relationships with family members are close and loving, I do agree it would be best to tell.

And last, considering the possibility of having a TG child, if both partners enter the relationship aware of the possibility I am sure they will be prepared to cross the bridge when they get there and help their child adjust by doing what they can to make the world a more comfortable place in which he or she may live. I would.

Isn't trust and the need for honesty and acceptance also in family relationships and friend relationships? While less intimate isn't the same principles in effect just in different degrees?

And for the next generation of CDs to be able to tell their partners don't GGs have a responsibility to risk their family and friend relationships too?

As for kids, is it good enough for CDs and GGs to just wait and see if their child shows signs of being TG? They could grow up totally closeted and never show those signs.

What if they are not aware of the possibility when entering the relationship and only learn of it reading this thread? Don't they have a responsibility to it starting now?

And what if it's not the direct child but a grandchild or a niece or nephew that ends up TG?

And what about the parents responsibility for the world the child grows up in? We each play a part in shaping the world however small, if we keep things quiet and private are we not betraying those children by negligently failing to act to make the world a little bit more pro-TG?

And what about the responsibility to the whole community? The odds of having a TG child seem greater for a CD but there will definately be TG kids at your kids school either way. So isn't their a responsibility to the other TG kids in the community? What about friends whose kids have maybe up to a 1 in 10 chance of being TG?

By being out to friends and family if those friends and family have a TG kid (whether 1 in 10 or 1 in 100 chances are at least one will!) that kid will likely grow up in a more accepting family, suffer far less and be able to be open to whoever they fall in love with from the start.

And in a related point on responsibility to the family shouldn't all the USA GGs be getting involved in this http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1742318 whether pro or anti CDing simply to protect their own family so that if their husband gets outted he won't get fired throwing the whole family into economic turmoil especially in this time of economic crisis?

No, while I can see that a romantic relationship is special and particularly intimate I don't see that the honesty responsibility ends only there, it's just less but it's still there.

And doesn't the responsibility to the family mean that CDs and GGs too have a responsibility to take these risks and to work on societies acceptance as well as their own?

WOW !

As Captain Barbossa said "There are a lot of long words in there, Miss; we're naught but humble pirates."

Its going to take time to digest both of your posts, but here is my first impression.

Batty: I agree with everthing you said, that would be the perfect way to go, but, we don't live in the perfect world.

Reine: I only dissagree with one thing in your post, "there IS a difference between being honest with a life-long partner and honesty with everyone else", Honesty is the same for ALL.

Here is what I am trying to say, When someone asks if I am a crossdresser, I do not hesitate saying Yes! There are people that know me well, that do not know I am a crossdresser, and I do not feel I am being dishonest with them, they just have not seen, or asked me.

To quote another movie "The Matrix"
Morpheus: There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path.
Mouse: to deny our own impulses is to deny the very thing that makes us human.
Oracle: Do you know what that means? It means know thy self.

The MOST important person you need to be honest with, Your Self !

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Originally Posted by Intertwined

Batty: I agree with everthing you said, that would be the perfect way to go, but, we don't live in the perfect world.

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Yes but I'm suggesting that every CD and their GG SO's too really are obliged to do this.

For the sake of their children grandchildren and other peoples children.

Now that may need to be done gradually and carefully to be most effective, but I cannot find any other conclusion. That a CD and GG owe their family, their children and future descendants and all of society to be involved in making CDing accepted.

That morally and ethically every CD and GG is obligated to push for an Inclusive ENDA ad to make their own community more TG-friendly or they are being negligent and failing their family.

That not doing so is being selfish. Putting ones own comfort ahead of the needs of chidren and grandchildren and the rest of the community.

Certainly everyone can't just come out now without risking their job... hence why inclusive ENDA is a matter of protecting the family! So that accidental or intentional outting doesn't harm the family.

I see no other rational or emotional conclusion.

How many people have you been honest with, Batty? Aren't you in the closet?

Want to know what I really think? I think that's the biggest load of bullshit I've ever read, and I'm sick of reading your goddamn preaching bullshit. What exactly have you done? You don't have kids, you do NOT know the impact it could have telling them. And as for your crap about telling people, well you were literally FORCED to tell your mother, because of the girlfriend you had/have? So don't preach to us about what we should be bloody doing!!! :Angry3: when the only thing you've done is because you had NO CHOICE!!!

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ad.php?t=68929

Batty isn't out? I am pretty sure she has said she has been out and about in previous posts. But I am getting old so maybe I don't remember.

And why is bringing a concept to the boards BS? I would venture that a majority don't read what Batty posts mostly because it does not fit into their closeted lifestyle. I refer back to the poem from WWII about there was no one left to stand up for me.

All that said, about the question at hand. This world would never function under total honesty. Our society has set up boundaries that discourage total honesty. We all know it. The used car guy lies about stuff, we know it. The mechanic fudges on what is needed to fix something, we know it. Politicians promise the moon, we know they are lying.

It would be ideal if we could disclose everything to everyone close to us but we have to analyze how that news will be taken and the repercussions it will cause. People my parents age "know" that any male who wears a dress is homosexual. Truth says just the opposite. What is it 95%+ here are straight or bi (sort of a weasel there tho because bi could be considered homosexual in a way). I kind of like having my parents talk to me but I am certain that my father would not speak to me very often and would limit his visits severely if he knew. He would get over it mostly as long as I didn't shove it in his face every time I saw him but at 78 years old, time is precious. So he doesn't know and probably won't. Ok I am a liar, never said I wasn't (I play poker frequently).

But total honesty to the whole world is difficult if not impossible. All the circumstances have to be weighed. I agree that most CD's over analyze these circumstances and 90% of what we worry about never occurs. But that the way it is. We all have our own reality. Not everything in that reality is real. But the suggestion or thought of losing loved ones over this is a strong motivator to keep quiet. You can always find a new lover (human nature takes care of that) but you will never find new birth parents or brothers and sisters.

So Batty, yes, in a perfect world honesty extending beyond our cloister would be ideal. It would also cause a collapse in the society.

Quoting Garth Brooks ( the great American philosopher that he is)

"Our lives are better left to chance, I could have missed the pain but I would have to miss the dance." So without much detail I will say that my wife kept a huge secret through our life together. Did I need to know, no our marriage functioned fine. Would it have changed things? yes, but I would have still loved her. But the dynamics of the relationship would have been vastly different.

Telling your lover, wife, SO is the ideal. But know things can and probably will change and not always for the better

Oooh Tamara! You really call a spade a spade. I wish I had b***s as big. I bet you're really soft and sweet inside though but whatever you'll get my vote for president

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Originally Posted by Sharon

How many people have you been honest with, Batty? Aren't you in the closet?

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I'm utterly out (as in i've said 'I'm a crossdresser') as a crossdresser to:

Parents, not-lost siblings (we're still searching for one), other relatives I have reasonable contact with except my aunt but she's worked it out already, all good friends (except for 1 who thought i was joking.. he's very transphobic and has big issues.. but I'm working on him slowly), the parents and families of most of my friends, the local member of parliament and several other politicians, the human rights and equal opportunity comission, the local human rights comittee including two professors at the local university, the entire cast of the Womens Comedy Fesitival, all the people who recognised me in the audience of the womens comedy festival or saw me there and have since recognised me or the same walking to a friends place and back full femme, my neighbours, many many shopkeepers.

I am recognisable Transgender/gender-non-conformist to:

Everyone else.

Including I expect everyone reading my posts at the Human Rights Consultation forum http://www.openforum.com.au/NHROC where I'm using my birth name and discussing TG rights issues including my own (hmm though did i explicitly say i was transgender there? I think I did but I could be mistaken. I might just make a point of saying so explicitly tomorrow perhaps) and I was quoted with my birth-name in an online media article about that forum http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.ph...u=_W0DA&ref=mf and also my (false and true) rumuor spreading aunt who has stopped telling people i'm a drug dealer/user (i'm not for the record) as she considers gender variance more juicy gossip. So lots of people have heard by now from millionaires (rich cousins she keeps in contact with), QCs (more cousins she keeps in contact with), judges (more cousins) to the people at the local fish and chip shop. She might even have told an international media magnate if she's still in contact with him... despite her lying she's often believed. Oh and then there's anyone in earshot (she's loud) when she talks to me in town.

Also all the people who attended the local art competition where a combined self-portrait photography/poetry piece of mine about transphobic and other difference-phobic violence where I'm wearing makeup, bleeding and with pink writing all over it mentioning my femininity in the words.

My daily 'male' presentation is now strongly 'genderqueer' and progressively moreso every week. Such as doing my shopping in this http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...d.php?t=108334 and often carry the larger of the bags in this thread on my shoulder http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ad.php?t=94702

Believe me, people notice. Shopkeepers suggest womens things to me and sometimes discuss CDing. I've tried things on in several shops, one only sells womens clothes. One lesbian friend of a friend who I hadn't yet overtly come out to asked me if I'd like something she'd bought for her partner which didn't fit, while she was serving me at the supermarket i might ad. People I pass by occassionally ask one another 'was that a guy or a girl'.

And steadily I'm increasing the people i'm utterly and clearly statedly out to. I'm going slowly partly from my own self-confidance and partly because i live in a rural town with some existing homophobic violence problems and I have no car, it's feet taxi's and buses as my only transport. And being disabled that makes me more vulnerable than average.

Oh and Tamara, while i came out to my parents through fear that my ex was going to tell them out of spite since then i have been continuing because the conclusions i've been reaching have driven me to recognise it's what i should do. And I've been working on my own internalised transphobia in order to do so. I never said the right thing to do was easy.

I'm gradually moving out of the closet. I have lots of old connections still to cover of course. Especially old haunts online i haven't visited much since splitting with my ex that i really should get back to. Hmmm Charles Keller the 3rd of the H.G. Wells Society of the Americas who published my open letter in their journal and used some of my art for it's cover and who I used to debate with all the time. I should get around to getting back in contact with and coming out to him for example.

Thanks, Batty, I stand corrected. I must have missed some of your posts.

You still didn't answer me about telling children? you don't have children do you, you can't tell people to tell theirs, when you have none and have no clue what the impact could be. You can't tell people that they should be telling everyone, because they expect their SO to tell them... it's ridiculous and you know it! So, because Tam told me, I should now go and tell all my family? and if so I could lose them all? are you serious? You're saying I should tell my mum and hope to God I don't lose her? yeah... ok... and then we all went off to lala land and did a happy dance.... do you have any clue what you write? you're seriously so far in cuckoo land with this thread, it's unbelievable!

Hi, I think if we lived in a perfect world then you may have a point Batty but we don't thank god (or whoever). Most people are still afraid of TG/CD because they don't understand it. Even the TG/CD's themselves don't understand whats going on with them. It's a taboo subject in most households and will probably stay that way until people understand it won't harm them.

It's easy for us to critisize, we know about it. If we want it to change then it's up to US to change it not some SO who had it forced upon her. S/he don't understand so will want to keep it secret. I mean, even most TG/CDs wan't to keep it secret from their SO because they're afraid of how they will react. If you really want to change attitudes then this is the wrong place to try and do it, everyone here is biased. Try facebook, my space and that ilk or even a soap box in the local park. Preach to those who don't know about it, educate them, show them there's nothing to fear.

As for me, to be honest I just can't be bothered by it all. I'm accepted where I want to be. Why should I fight for people who don't want helping? people who are 'Just fine thanks in my closet'. If that's their choice then who am I or you to argue.
Stick at it girl (or whatever) you may indeed change the world after all Hitler did.

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Originally Posted by Samantha Kelsey

Stick at it girl (or whatever) you may indeed change the world after all Hitler did.

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LOL.. I'm sorry, but, (and this is offtopic, so I apologise in advance batty)... but Hitler did not change anything, he tried to take over the world and got his ass kicked... and this is off topic, so no more hitler talk... :doh:

What happens in a marriage/relationship, stays in said marriage/relationship.

I see no need to broadcast one's CDing to the world.

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Originally Posted by clayfish

What happens in a marriage/relationship, stays in said marriage/relationship.

I see no need to broadcast one's CDing to the world.

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Well this would be a happy middle of the road thing , being honest to your SO and if possible your family but forgetting about the rest , i could live with that

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Originally Posted by Tamara Croft

You still didn't answer me about telling children? you don't have children do you,

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Nope. The strangulated Hernia of the Testes that almost killed me as a child may have left me infertile. I never have got that tested.

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you can't tell people to tell theirs, when you have none and have no clue what the impact could be.

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Ah but I have lots of friends who do have children and lots of friends have parents. I have one transsexual offline friend who'se been in and out of mental institutions over the last few years solely because after her mother died she realised she never ever would get the acceptance from her mother. Her father raped her and threw her out of the house when she came out. another friend is a psychologist and social worker who deals with children and has also dealth with TG people. The cousin whose a judge?.. family law court, though my conversations with her were on other issues. Another friend is a psychologist who has been involved in several studies on sexuality and the legal sex-work industry in this state as well as the effects of emotionally distant parents on childhood development and they invited me to a party en femme with their entire family and their childrens friends too where issues like coming outas TG or Gay or Goth were discussed. I've also seen the impact of parents hiding their bisexuality from their kids (the sense of betrayel led to an eating disorder), affairs, hiding that the love had gone from the relationship and more.

So I've seen the impact of a lot of things on kids. And perhaps an external viewpoint is useful on such things.

But I was discussing the Moral and Ethical Obligations to TG kids and to the whole community. Your worried about the Psychological Impact on the kids if they are Cis? Maybe the social one too? Those are really good questions!

We know what the impact is on the kids who are TG of Not Telling... Internalised Transphobia, high risk of suicide etc. Just as Gay parents hiding being Gay from their Gay kids has been in the past.

For Cis kids while I doubt any specific TG parenting studies have been done we could look to the effects of gay parents coming out on their straight kids, on gay parent raising kids openly from the outset (of the latter the results are about equal with straight couples but lesbians actually do better) and the age of coming out may well have a big impact as well as degress of local acceptance.

You could of course ask the kids from the Kids Of Trans program from Colage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxBP5Y0vwZQ
http://www.colage.org/

I'd say they'd know better than either of us!

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You can't tell people that they should be telling everyone, because they expect their SO to tell them... it's ridiculous and you know it!

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Why? I said the moral and ethical obligation is the same, though lesser in degree. In essence the expectation of the SO is that no matter how hard it is to overcome the ITP in order to do so the SO deserves to know before becoming too comitted in order to make an informed decision about the relationship. Why is that not the case for all other relationships? CDing isn't entirely sexual or romantic in nature so why should disclosure be exclusive to sexual/romantic relationships?

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So, because Tam told me, I should now go and tell all my family? and if so I could lose them all? are you serious? You're saying I should tell my mum and hope to God I don't lose her?

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One of the most basic principles of ethics and morals is you cannot judge others for not doing what you would not be willing to do yourself (it's part of the ethics of reciprocity). If your not willing to risk your relationships with honesty then you cannot judge others for not having done so with you.

On top of that as the internalised transphobia that causes the closeting in the first place is social in origin those not actuvely involved in undoing it who know of it's existence and therfore have an opportunity to choose to or not become responsible in part for it. If you look for example at the Trolley Dilemma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem which is a central thought-excercise for examining moral/ethical reasoning you'll see that a choice of inaction is still a choice with consequences.

And crucially while no-one disputes both parents have obligations to their family I'm pointing out their family heritage may be trans. It could be said then to be just like hiding that you carry a gene that causes deafness, blindness, epilepsy or schizophrenia from your children even though they or their grandchildren will have a higher chance than normal of having that condition.

And beyond that I'm suggesting we all have an additional obligation to the whole community. The same obligation a soldier has who risks widowing their partner and orphaning their children because the obligation to protect them and their whole country is greater. Same with a police oficer or firefighter. Same as was faced by black men who faced lynching for speaking out for equality. Same that was faced by the Suffragettes (and some of them wrote about this dilemma) who had to chose between risking being imprisoned and denying their daughters a mother or failing to try to have the world those daughters grew up in be better for them.

So in those crucial points it can be argued that protecting the family is the motive.

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yeah... ok... and then we all went off to lala land and did a happy dance.... do you have any clue what you write?

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Yes i do. Moral and Ethical reasoning was my favourite topic since early childhood. My main specialty.

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you're seriously so far in cuckoo land with this thread, it's unbelievable!

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It's entirely possible that I'm wrong. Or only partially correct. But crucially important is where and why i am wrong if I am. Like most ideas in higher-thinking and science etc a person needs to state an idea and then everyone tries and shows how and why it is wrong. If it cannot be shown to be wrong then you have to consider it is not wrong untill someone can find how and why it is wrong.

so I'm entirely willing to accept i could well be wrong. But it's important to know the why and how so as to progress onto discovering what is actually right.

As for Hitler... well H.G. Wells work on Human Rights which led to Roosevelts four-freedoms speech and the worlds reaction to the horror of the holocaust that resulted in the reasonably stable and stabalising UN and all the modern human rights causes which I'm involved in (and better get some sleep for if I'm going to read all these papers before tomorrows meeting) was all a reaction in oposition.. he changed the world by not just failing but by rallying much of the world against his irrational and harmful ideas (remember his Eugenics policy of forced sterilisation was modelled on the American one! and much of the world including Australia and Germany only recognise a TS as their affirmed sex once sterile so that relates it back to TG issues! Especially a parents concerns for the fate of descendants carrying a TG gene!). Though what I am saying has much more in common with Wells than Hitler.

Now Wells.. that's a person whose ides really have changed the world, far more than most people have any clue about.

Edit: I forgot one other important point. I also know what it's like to consider the responsibilities of having genetic conditions that can be passed on as there are two in my family that have been discussed whenever anyone in the family has kids.

The first is a condition where people in my family can fall into a death-like state and be diagnosed by doctors as dead. My aunt woke up twice on the way to the morgue and a cousin had an attack of this in the playground in the last 12 months.

The second is a degenerative eysight condition that my mother has that could effect any daughters I might have if I got the gene where they could have poor degenerating eyesight or, if the mother carries the gene also, be born blind.

My family also lost Gypsy relatives in the holocaust to the Genocide policies of the Nazis.

So you see through my whole life the arguments and ideas about responsibility of genetic heritage both good and bad have been part of active debate and discussion.

Clayfish, isn't that just suppressing things? The more I read things in this forum the more I see that many people "want" to be heard and be respected but they "don't want" to put anything out there for it. Life is risk and reward. If you want to be taken seriously as someone who believes that "we" are an integral part of society then you need to be out there. So many complain on here that no one understands us, but they hide away from the world. I would not understand us either if I wasn't part of this community. But I am, so I want people to know I am a good person. I try and do the right things, I try and add to my community and make the world a little better where I can. If broadcasting this is part of it, so be it.

I don't have children either Tamara, but seems like having your children be exposed to different things and being more open minded can't be bad. Hiding things from them on the other hand reinforces that something is evil or wrong. Young minds tend to see things in a more open manner. They want to know and they want to learn.


But then again, I didn't see any good reason to bring children into a world of hate and repression. That's me

Heard and be respected ...YES BUT CONSTANTLY being preached at :Angry3::Angry3::Angry3::Angry3::Angry3::Angry3:

I tried my best to not post in this thread but their are a few things I want to say.

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I'm suggesting that every CD and their GG SO's too really are obliged to do this.
That morally and ethically every CD and GG is obligated to push for an Inclusive ENDA ad to make their own community more TG-friendly or they are being negligent and failing their family.
That not doing so is being selfish. Putting ones own comfort ahead of the needs of chidren and grandchildren and the rest of the community.

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Batty how do you not know that we do not work in the community/ plus with our familys for acceptance and some gg's have to work hard for their cd partner to even accept themselves........WE DO
Maybe you should look within and preach to yourself I find this revolting, displeasing, upsetting or simply uncalled for!!
MAYBE LOOK TO YOURSELF WHAT YOU CAN DO AND STOP
'Dictating' your rhetoric ......YOU HAVE not a clue what we do in real life. I am sure we are much further out than you are
( family friends ect plus work in the community) BUT your life is your life.....in the closet ..thats your choice........BUT stop with the preaching.........we all do what we need to do....:doh:

And do not even answer me as I will not be looking back to
feed your ego even more.
GET OFF the pulpit !!:Angry3::Angry3:

I don't care if you know people with children, you don't have children of your own, it's COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!!!! what part of that are you simply not understanding? You cannot preach to us to tell our kids, when you have NONE of your own. It's all very well you saying this, it's easy... but until you have children you created, you cannot. And I for one do not like being lectured on what I should or should not do, because you've seen what not telling kids can do... whatever... I'm done with this thread, you're right, everyone else is wrong... keep telling yourself that :brolleyes:

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

So then don't SOs have a responsibility to strive for TG rights and acceptance for their childrens or grandchildrens sakes?

This seems to me the consequences of concluding that CDs should be honest with their partners. What do you think?

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No. the consequence of CDs being honest with their partners is they risk losing her if she cannot embrace the lifestyle. Which is a good thing IMO, since the CD and the prospective SO will free themselves up to find more compatible relationships with others. Then and only then, can the CD and her new partner decide on their degree of comfort with regards to public education, of course depending their inclination to do so, where the CD sits along the gender spectrum and their current life circumstances.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

Isn't trust and the need for honesty and acceptance also in family relationships and friend relationships? While less intimate isn't the same principles in effect just in different degrees?

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No. I can't imagine any reason to disclose medical conditions, sexual practices, a history of physical or sexual abuse or incest to anyone other than a partner, unless someone wants to disclose this. It is not an obligation.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

And for the next generation of CDs to be able to tell their partners don't GGs have a responsibility to risk their family and friend relationships too?

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Why? First they must be true to themselves and their own comfort levels. When an airplane is forced to land, the oxygen mask is always put on the adult first, so s/he can better help the child.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

As for kids, is it good enough for CDs and GGs to just wait and see if their child shows signs of being TG? They could grow up totally closeted and never show those signs.

And what about the parents responsibility for the world the child grows up in? We each play a part in shaping the world however small, if we keep things quiet and private are we not betraying those children by negligently failing to act to make the world a little bit more pro-TG?

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This is pure conjecture. How do you know that parents are not doing all they can, even if it doesn't involve political activity?

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

And in a related point on responsibility to the family shouldn't all the USA GGs be getting involved in this http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1742318

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Might it be preferable if they feel so inclined? Yes. Must they? No. Everyone does what they can and they SHOULD NOT be made to feel remiss if they do not live up to the ideal.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

And doesn't the responsibility to the family mean that CDs and GGs too have a responsibility to take these risks and to work on societies acceptance as well as their own?

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First, let's work on helping SOs to accept and support their partners' transness. THEN we can work on ways they can become active, according to their comfort zones. Not everyone is ready to be public about this. One baby step at a time. Nor is everyone inclined to make this a priority in their busy lives. What if their spare time is taken up with fighting world hunger? Or campaigning for cancer research? Or the couple has a Down's Syndrome child?

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

Now that may need to be done gradually and carefully to be most effective, but I cannot find any other conclusion.

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You do agree that coming out may be done gradually then, even it it means going out publicly in the next town over? Or regularly attending a TG support group? Or telling selected people and not everyone at once? And it may take years to come out to all and sundry, perhaps after the children are grown or the CD is retired? What about a CD's choice to not come out at all since she may not have a great need to do so? What if she is content living a large part of her life as a guy and her decision to live this way has nothing to do with ITP? It all boils down to personal choice.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

That not doing so is being selfish. Putting ones own comfort ahead of the needs of chidren and grandchildren and the rest of the community.

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You said in the subsequent post to this one that "One of the most basic principles of ethics and morals is you cannot judge others for not doing what you would not be willing to do yourself (it's part of the ethics of reciprocity)". What about not judging others for not sharing your conviction, or having vastly different life circumstances as you?

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

Certainly everyone can't just come out now without risking their job... hence why inclusive ENDA is a matter of protecting the family! So that accidental or intentional outting doesn't harm the family.

I see no other rational or emotional conclusion.

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Good point. See below the line at the bottom of this post.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

But I was discussing the Moral and Ethical Obligations to TG kids and to the whole community.

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This is a concern for all of us. But it is idealistic to believe that everyone is in the same measure to be proactive to the same degree.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

In essence the expectation of the SO is that no matter how hard it is to overcome the ITP in order to do so the SO deserves to know before becoming too comitted in order to make an informed decision about the relationship. Why is that not the case for all other relationships? CDing isn't entirely sexual or romantic in nature so why should disclosure be exclusive to sexual/romantic relationships?

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Because not everyone is prepared to risk losing their livelihood or potentially losing family members, friendships, etc. But again, put it in context. If it is a matter of emotional or spiritual death to stay closeted, then by all means a CD and certainly a TS must live as their true gender and the rest of society will have to adjust. And I am sure those who are so inclined already do what they can to further the cause. But, I wonder how many TSs never transition because their life circumstances would guarantee a loss of livelihood if they did? So how many feel forced to stay silent? I do not wish to begin a discussion on whether the chicken or the egg came first.



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Originally Posted by battybattybats

It's entirely possible that I'm wrong. Or only partially correct. But crucially important is where and why i am wrong if I am. Like most ideas in higher-thinking and science etc a person needs to state an idea and then everyone tries and shows how and why it is wrong. If it cannot be shown to be wrong then you have to consider it is not wrong untill someone can find how and why it is wrong.

so I'm entirely willing to accept i could well be wrong. But it's important to know the why and how so as to progress onto discovering what is actually right.

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In principle, Batty, I do not think anyone would disagree that it is necessary to take proactive actions in order to increase public awareness and education.

I cannot speak for others, but I have an issue when I am told that I MUST behave a certain way and if I do not, then I am failing the TG community, the community as a whole, and all future generations of TGs. Although I may not be willing to march, or take it upon myself to educate our local schools, I do feel I do my part by supporting my SO and going out frequently with her, as well as encouraging other TGs to express themselves more openly, to name a few. I am involved in prolonged divorce proceedings right now and it would be disastrous at this point if my ex were to find out about my SO's CDing, both legally (even though Courts should not consider gender or sexuality when making decisions, Judges are not always impartial and personal bias can negatively affect their decisions) and in my ex's ability to manipulate my sons' attitudes towards their future relationship with my SO.

It would be best if rather than try to convince us of our moral and ethical obligations to stand up and speak out (and I do not believe anyone disagrees with you), you would simply keep it simple and post simple, concrete ways people may involve themselves, IF THEY WISH to do so. And let people decide for themselves.

The ENDA suggestion was good, but it was buried under so many lengthy posts, many links, and quotations, it was hard to isolate a very simple thing anyone can do to help. And I quote from: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=187035380507

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***Here is what we are asking you to do***

Please contact your US Representative by calling the U.S. Capitol at 202-224-3121. Give the operator your zip code and ask for your Representative. Ask your Rep's office whether he or she has a position on an inclusive Employment Non-Discrimination Act, and explain that means both sexual orientation and gender identity. Ask whether the position is definitely yes, probably yes, undecided, probably no or definitely no. Then, post it on the Wall and it will be placed on the spreadsheets listed below in the links section.

Next, do the same for your Senators by calling the same telephone number.

Our next steps after this will be to contact those in the undecided columns and help to educate them about the importance of an inclusive ENDA (The Employment Non-Discrimination Act).

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Di

as with most threads in this forum which are designed to stimulate thought and debate (not fluff and smoke), sometimes things come off as being referred to as "all" or "none" I don't think that was the intent here. Batty tries to get people to look around and see that they should be part of the solution and not hide. We all realize that this community is a vast spectrum. I appreciate the people here who do push to forward our being out and about. If that comes off as preaching, I think in your case it is preaching to the choir. Thanks for doing what you can to get our community seen and heard.

Now on the honesty part...I seem to remember not too long ago someone called the people on this forum liars. So telling one's children, if I had some, would be more honest than the average poster here. Just a thought

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

Now on the honesty part...I seem to remember not too long ago someone called the people on this forum liars. So telling one's children, if I had some, would be more honest than the average poster here. Just a thought

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If you're referring to me, then maybe you should ask whether my children actually know? My eldest does know, she's actually a member here. My youngest is well aware of transgendered people, there is a 17 yr old MTF TS in her dance school and she is fully supportive of her, will not hear a bad word against her and really supported her in their dance show. She has seen her dad dressed as Tam, thought it was funny, and it didn't phase her in the slightest. She also is well aware I have many TG friends and has seen me on this board many times and never questioned it... and might I say, she is only 14! I raised my children not to judge, they are open minded and very supportive of everyone... so I really do hope you were not referring to me!

[SIZE="2"]"People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible for the older people and the kids?...It’s just not right. It’s not right. It’s not, it’s not going to change anything. We’ll, we’ll get our justice....Please, we can get along here. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to work it out"[/SIZE]

For you Brit's, Rodney King was a black man beaten up by the LAPD in Los Angelos CA years ago.. This was his plea after the event when riots broke out afterwards, his plea to help restore the peace..

Although Batty can easily take care of this, I can't let it go...

Batty's several recent threads, including this one, indicate (to me) her motivations for posting interesting questions is done with the best intentions... for the common good.

IMO, among them are her desire to clarify and solidify her own thinking on complex issues and to present various ideas/"ideals" others can consider to evaluate/re-evaluate one's personal stance on a topic.

In general, what may be ideal and what is possible, practical or desirable for anyone in the real world is of course an individual call, but I believe if one has not thought through an issue completely, and only has a vague idea of what a clearly defined ideal/goal may be, an ethical "big picture" how can one honesty determine if one's personal level of activism/involvement/participation in it/anything, is all it could or should be? What's wrong with food for thought?

To restate: Batty often suggests "frames of reference" one can use in considering one's options and whether or not more can be done without detriment to one's immediate circumstances.

Unlike some of the "preachers" elsewhere on the forum with other favorite agendas that I find particularly tiresome, she has the ability to alter her POV if someone makes a good/logical/ethical case contrary to a conclusion she has made. When that occurs, she incorporates the new data into the equation quickly. She has never said that dealing with complex issues would be easy, comfortable or convenient...

I think she is too often misunderstood and wrongly accused with considerable unjustified animosity directed toward her. Who will deny that she is a good person, has considerable intellectual gifts and her motivations are honorable? Nobody is ever forced to agree with her. OTOH, if one disagrees, she asks for a clarification. That is a fair and reasonable request... negative emotional commentary is counterproductive.

I consider her presence here, her knowledge and advocacy to be a tremendous asset to the forum and the TG community at large, despite my having to wade through the mountain of data she has made available.

dd

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Originally Posted by Tamara Croft

II raised my children not to judge, they are open minded and very supportive of everyone... so I really do hope you were not referring to me!

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It wasn't that long ago you made the claim that we as CD's were liars. Nothing to do with the children but more in reference to the OP that we should disclose all and be honest. When Batty said we should be totally open and honest you tell her to lie. It can't be both ways. You have explained before how you have raised your children to be open and tolerant. Exactly what age does this kick in? Batty would do it immediately you have a different time table.

If we could only make decisions on if we have done something, i.e. having children, diminishes the discussion by limiting input. You give your input on "dressing" yet I doubt you have ever been a M-F CD. The idea of this forum is to educate and support.

I think it's very important to come out to your wife g/f very early and just as important be honest in the CDing level as well with your intentions( how far you desire to take it).

If most CDers act in real life as they do here , you must have very understanding wives and or G/Fs.. A lot here talk the talk hey listen are you Gay? That is one of the first questions asked after they find out from most. Define Gay, is it someone who perfers a sexual relationships with the same gender? So in saying that for those who wish to be female how do you think that must make your S.O. feel after hideing such a secret?

Do you demand acceptance or do you perfer to earn it? Thats the question , a great start would be honesty right out of the gate in a relationship. So many come here and complain about how they get rejected in their everyday life and blame their CDing as the cause. So many hold such a chip on their shoulder from years of defending their actions and why? No it's not because of CDing its from the character that you built in your inner ego , how you have felt all these years of shame because you have done something considered unacceptable by most.

As we CDers get older our biggest regret was not accepting our lifestyle more openly , we have lived a life of lies and hurt the ones who loved us as we loved them. No it wasn't because of crossdressing it was because we were not honest. I am happy to say I was honest from the start with my wife and only she knew .

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Originally Posted by curse within

If most CDers act in real life as they do here , you must have very understanding wives and or G/Fs..

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I think many SOs are a lot more understanding and caring than they get credit for here. Thousands of members and maybe a hundred complainers. Silent majority are either in a very loving (I didn't say totally accepting or even open) or so deep in hiding their SO's don't know.

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As we CDers get older our biggest regret was not accepting our lifestyle more openly , we have lived a life of lies and hurt the ones who loved us as we loved them. No it wasn't because of crossdressing it was because we were not honest. I am happy to say I was honest from the start with my wife and only she knew .

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Agree and part of younger CD's not coming out is the children. It would difficult for most to be "out" to the wife and not somehow be caught by the kids sometime. So we hide from everyone until that golden moment. Often it is empty nest syndrome. Who can blame a woman for freaking out when she thought that this would be the time for both of them and the husband says "guess what?".

My ancestors say "we grow too sonn old and too late smart." As it was for me, there was always tomorrow

I've not been saying some people aren't doing some things.

I'm discussing the right and the wrong of the situation. The oldest subject of all human study is philosophy especially moral and ethical reasoning which is what I'm using in this topic. One needn't be a murderer or victim of murder in order to state whether murder is wrong or not. One only needs to know what makes it wrong or not.

Besides, i'm not just discussing the right and wrong of a persons interactions with just their own children where subjective experience can both inform and deceive but the tight and wrong for the grandchildren, great grandchildren and everyone else carrying those genes.

However if there is to be subjective experience that can provide signs of error in my Ethical Reasoning please then provide it rather than just saying I'm wrong without being able to say why.

So why is what I said the wrong thing to do and not the right thing to do?

Why am i wrong about their being a Moral and Ethical obligation? (and yes some people do fullfill the obligation, I'm not saying no-one is! I'm simply saying that it seems to be there and if so needs to be considered and discussed!)

And I'm not preaching or dictatitng, I'm asking a question, considering it and forming an initial conclusion. By all means lets together examine this and see if other conclusions are possible and can stand up to scrutiny and remain valid at the end, and equally test my initial conclusion.

That's how Ethical Reasoning, the study of Right and Wrong, works.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

No. the consequence of CDs being honest with their partners is they risk losing her if she cannot embrace the lifestyle.

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If a partner should have a reason to expect that they should be free to stay with or dump a CD because they are a CD then why shouldn't a friend? Why should a parent, child, sibling or anyone else not have that same opportunity?

If there is a Causal Operative difference we need to identify it to make valid the two different courses of action.

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Then and only then, can the CD and her new partner decide on their degree of comfort with regards to public education, of course depending their inclination to do so, where the CD sits along the gender spectrum and their current life circumstances.

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Right and wrong don't depend on peoples inclinations. Only their choice amongst various options of varying degress of right and wrong do. That's important to consider. For example a CD does not have to take the risks a TS is forced to by their circumstances. But just because a CD has more power of choice it doesn't mean they have less of an obligation morally and ethically in the choice but more of one.

The choice of inaction, of not being out, has consequences every bit as real as the choice of action which the chooser is equally responsible for.

Hypotheticals are important to consider these issues seperately from their emotional baggage. So here's one.

A person sees an elderly man within arms reach of them stepping onto the road and distracted by their hat being blown off to their feet, as the man bends to pick it up a fast moving car is headed straight for them. The person has the time to reach forward and pull them back, at most risking their arm in the process but no more. If they choose not to act are they not responsible for the mans death?

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No. I can't imagine any reason to disclose medical conditions, sexual practices, a history of physical or sexual abuse or incest to anyone other than a partner, unless someone wants to disclose this. It is not an obligation.

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Where a mental illness effects behaviour for example? Autism and Aspergers and other medical conditions that effect behaviour? Stigmatised illnesses where only when people understand it will they stop discriminating aginst those who have it (I speak from personal experience with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome as one example of that one)...

Doesn't silence contribute to Transphobia and therfore contribute to Deaths by Suicide and Murder?

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Why?

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Because they have an obligation to their children and childrens children.

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First they must be true to themselves and their own comfort levels. When an airplane is forced to land, the oxygen mask is always put on the adult first, so s/he can better help the child.

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Good and valid point. Yes, they do. But the obligation to the child doesn't go away. a Parent needn't wait till they are breathing comfortably in that mask before starting to get the mask on their child.

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This is pure conjecture. How do you know that parents are not doing all they can, even if it doesn't involve political activity?

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I'm not discussing what they are or are not doing I'm discussing what is right and wrong to do, what the ethical obligations are. If a parent does not strive to change the world outside when they can contribute to it, if they only do what is comfortable for themselves then are they not being neglingent and harming their descendants? Note I said IF and I said small-way: "We each play a part in shaping the world however small, if we keep things quiet and private are we not betraying those children by negligently failing to act to make the world a little bit more pro-TG?"

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Might it be preferable if they feel so inclined? Yes. Must they? No.

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Thats not how right and wrong work. Every choice has consequences, and we do have obligations to the predictable consequences. If they do not and the result is their family loses a substantial amount of income, or other families do then they do bear some of the responsibility for that.

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Everyone does what they can

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No. Everyone does what they choose to. Some choose to do nothing, some a little, some a lot, some do only what's comfortable or on the odd occassion, some sacrifice a great deal of themselves for the sake of others and some choose to impede and hurt others, this is true in all things, all issues.

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and they SHOULD NOT be made to feel remiss if they do not live up to the ideal.

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Why? If the person chooses not to pull the man away from the cars deadly path should they not feel remiss? I'm not suggesting everyone should be a saint but choices, even of inaction, have consequences.

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First, let's work on helping SOs to accept and support their partners' transness. THEN we can work on ways they can become active, according to their comfort zones. Not everyone is ready to be public about this. One baby step at a time.

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Actually like step 4 in the overcoming internalised oppression becoming active helps develop acceptance. So while definately not the first step it may make many of the steps easier rather than waiting for total acceptance first.

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Nor is everyone inclined to make this a priority in their busy lives. What if their spare time is taken up with fighting world hunger? Or campaigning for cancer research? Or the couple has a Down's Syndrome child?

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Measuring priority is always difficult true. But people connected to TG have a responsibility because of their unique opportunity that those who don't knowingly know one do not. Just as parents of Down Syndrome children do. Mind you that Down's Syndrome child also may be carrying a TG gene...

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You do agree that coming out may be done gradually then, even it it means going out publicly in the next town over? Or regularly attending a TG support group? Or telling selected people and not everyone at once?

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Of course.

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And it may take years to come out to all and sundry, perhaps after the children are grown or the CD is retired?

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Yes. Especially depending on when the process truly starts. But the obligation to the children who may be carrying a genetic legacy of increased likelihood of being TG remains.

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What about a CD's choice to not come out at all since she may not have a great need to do so?

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They are the ones with the greater burden of choice on them. Those who need to come out have not made a choice but had it made for them by circumstance. The person free to choose has the most responsibility for their choice.

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What if she is content living a large part of her life as a guy and her decision to live this way has nothing to do with ITP? It all boils down to personal choice.

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Yes, and that choice has consequences and the more choice a person has the greater their responsibility for the consequences of their actions and inactions. A paranoid schizophrenic having a psychotic attack is less responsible for violence they committ than someone who chooses to comitt murder for insurance money.

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You said in the subsequent post to this one that "One of the most basic principles of ethics and morals is you cannot judge others for not doing what you would not be willing to do yourself (it's part of the ethics of reciprocity)". What about not judging others for not sharing your conviction, or having vastly different life circumstances as you?

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I'm not judging others. I'm exploring the nature of right and wrong in this matter. And not by a moral code, that's subjective, but by objective ethical principles.

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This is a concern for all of us. But it is idealistic to believe that everyone is in the same measure to be proactive to the same degree.

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I never said they were. But everyone carries an obligation, some far more than others in fact based upon the extent of the effects of their choice not the ease of it.

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Because not everyone is prepared to risk losing their livelihood or potentially losing family members, friendships, etc.

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Then, and this is crucial here, then that justifies CDs not telling their wives as they risk being outted by their wives and so risk losing all those things too as well as risking losing their wife, children etc.

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But again, put it in context. If it is a matter of emotional or spiritual death to stay closeted, then by all means a CD and certainly a TS must live as their true gender and the rest of society will have to adjust.

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Also the increased risk of suicide, domestic violence, emotional distance, drug abuse, risky sexual and non-sexual deferrance behaviours, depression and other mental illnesses all has effects on the family. Even if a person can stay closeted that choice has consequences on their family and relationship. The harm of these risks should be measured against the harm of adjusting to TG reality in each case.

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And I am sure those who are so inclined already do what they can to further the cause. But, I wonder how many TSs never transition because their life circumstances would guarantee a loss of livelihood if they did? So how many feel forced to stay silent?

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And we must consider that those who choose not to come out or who choose not to work for employment protections are making choices that have consequences to others including the TSs who have no choice.

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I do not wish to begin a discussion on whether the chicken or the egg came first.

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Thats easy to answer as many cultures were tg-accepting and transphobia imposed over them by force and coersion or scapegoating. But what is important right now is who has a choice that can undo what.

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In principle, Batty, I do not think anyone would disagree that it is necessary to take proactive actions in order to increase public awareness and education.

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But how many consider they should do it rather than 'others'?

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I cannot speak for others, but I have an issue when I am told that I MUST behave a certain way and if I do not, then I am failing the TG community, the community as a whole, and all future generations of TGs.

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I am simply stating logical conclusions, ones that challenge comfortable complacency and peoples current and past choices. If my conclusions are in error then lets assess them. If they are not then no matter how shocking and uncomfortable and clinical they remain true and coaxing a few on the borderline to do a little more might make people happier but it does an injustice to those in their comfortable complacency. Sometimes you have to be direct. A little pain now can prevent a lot more later.

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Although I may not be willing to march, or take it upon myself to educate our local schools, I do feel I do my part by supporting my SO and going out frequently with her, as well as encouraging other TGs to express themselves more openly, to name a few.

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And that's good and more should do it. Whether it's enough for your responsibilities or merely better than nothing is a long complex discussion requiring examining many circumstances.

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I am involved in prolonged divorce proceedings right now and it would be disastrous at this point if my ex were to find out about my SO's CDing, both legally (even though Courts should not consider gender or sexuality when making decisions, Judges are not always impartial and personal bias can negatively affect their decisions) and in my ex's ability to manipulate my sons' attitudes towards their future relationship with my SO.

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A valid reason of complications of the moment for being very careful about decisions in that regard. Of course individul circumstances complicate these issues. They don't change the responsibilities, just require weighing others with them. If you and your CD SO have biological children the gene issue comes into play. And there's still the chance your first child could be TG anyway.

Your present circumstances complicate matters, as many do, but don't remove your responsibilities, merely means you have to consider other issues with them and what is the most effective way to resolve them all or those with highest priority. None of my points exist in a vacuum. But we tend to pretend the TG issues have less weight and dismiss them compared to others. Only by considering their full implications and consequences can we genuinely compare obligations and priorities.

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It would be best if rather than try to convince us of our moral and ethical obligations to stand up and speak out (and I do not believe anyone disagrees with you), you would simply keep it simple and post simple, concrete ways people may involve themselves, IF THEY WISH to do so. And let people decide for themselves.

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By explaining the ethical obligations, the often ignored consequences, I am letting people decide for themselves from an informed position. Merely saying 'it'd be nice if you did the right thing please' does little with an entrenched complacency filled with deep unconcious biases and fears. People will glance up and say 'if only I could' and put their heads back under the comfortable blanket continuing to ignore the blood on their hands. Myself included. Directness and boldness and clarity are required to 'face the facts' when they are uncomfortable or involve hard decisions.

I have a particular understanding of the subject of ethical reasoning, so it's what I'm going to be able to bring to the discussion. I started studying the subject at age 3 (yes 3!) when I first attended publicly open university lectures on that subject and Metaphysics also and joined the discussion afterwards. I do also post the simple concrete ways people may involve themselves, but few will until they contemplate the parts of the subject they are ignoring or unaware of or haven't groked the full implications of.

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The ENDA suggestion was good, but it was buried under so many lengthy posts, many links, and quotations, it was hard to isolate a very simple thing anyone can do to help. And I quote from: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=187035380507

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It deserves a post of it's own. There is the one in the media section http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...d.php?t=108486
And perhaps the GG forum might find a discussion in there on ways GGs can help protect their families in small simple and powerful ways if they don't have one already?

Actually. You've got a really good point. There could be more discussion on ways loved ones can help on many matters that deserves it's own thread seperate from this one. I at least can start one in this section where everyone can contribute.

And Deedee Dupree, you have my intentions and attempted actions exactly right! That's indeed what I'm trying to do and Thanks for the compliments :hugs:

Very well said Deedee. Good onya, Batty. Intelligent discourse will prepare us for the rigors ahead. And, if someone does not like dis-course, they can wait till the salad course is served.
De Oppresso Liber,
Huntress

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Originally Posted by Deedee Dupree

Although Batty can easily take care of this, I can't let it go...

Batty's several recent threads, including this one, indicate (to me) her motivations for posting interesting questions is done with the best intentions... for the common good.

IMO, among them are her desire to clarify and solidify her own thinking on complex issues and to present various ideas/"ideals" others can consider to evaluate/re-evaluate one's personal stance on a topic.

In general, what may be ideal and what is possible, practical or desirable for anyone in the real world is of course an individual call, but I believe if one has not thought through an issue completely, and only has a vague idea of what a clearly defined ideal/goal may be, an ethical "big picture" how can one honesty determine if one's personal level of activism/involvement/participation in it/anything, is all it could or should be? What's wrong with food for thought?

To restate: Batty often suggests "frames of reference" one can use in considering one's options and whether or not more can be done without detriment to one's immediate circumstances.

Unlike some of the "preachers" elsewhere on the forum with other favorite agendas that I find particularly tiresome, she has the ability to alter her POV if someone makes a good/logical/ethical case contrary to a conclusion she has made. When that occurs, she incorporates the new data into the equation quickly. She has never said that dealing with complex issues would be easy, comfortable or convenient...

I think she is too often misunderstood and wrongly accused with considerable unjustified animosity directed toward her. Who will deny that she is a good person, has considerable intellectual gifts and her motivations are honorable? Nobody is ever forced to agree with her. OTOH, if one disagrees, she asks for a clarification. That is a fair and reasonable request... negative emotional commentary is counterproductive.

I consider her presence here, her knowledge and advocacy to be a tremendous asset to the forum and the TG community at large, despite my having to wade through the mountain of data she has made available.

dd

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Originally Posted by curse within

I think it's very important to come out to your wife g/f very early and just as important be honest in the CDing level as well with your intentions( how far you desire to take it).

If most CDers act in real life as they do here , you must have very understanding wives and or G/Fs.. A lot here talk the talk hey listen are you Gay? That is one of the first questions asked after they find out from most. Define Gay, is it someone who perfers a sexual relationships with the same gender? So in saying that for those who wish to be female how do you think that must make your S.O. feel after hideing such a secret?

Do you demand acceptance or do you perfer to earn it? Thats the question , a great start would be honesty right out of the gate in a relationship. So many come here and complain about how they get rejected in their everyday life and blame their CDing as the cause. So many hold such a chip on their shoulder from years of defending their actions and why? No it's not because of CDing its from the character that you built in your inner ego , how you have felt all these years of shame because you have done something considered unacceptable by most.

As we CDers get older our biggest regret was not accepting our lifestyle more openly , we have lived a life of lies and hurt the ones who loved us as we loved them. No it wasn't because of crossdressing it was because we were not honest. I am happy to say I was honest from the start with my wife and only she knew .

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You make good points. But the reality of both the CD and SO being raised in transphobia needs to be considered. That while the virtuous thing to do is for the CD to be honest and the SO totally accepting instantly neither of these things is always possible because we are human and subject to human frailties, including the unconcious influence of social pressures.

However not only do we have the power to change that now we know more, though it's hard for everyone and none of us should ignore that fact, but we have a responsibility not just to ourselves and our families and our TG descendants to do so but also a responsibility to those who will be raised in the same amount of transphobia we were unless we lessen it.

We who can know better and can act are responsible for the transphobia future CDs experience and we must weigh the personal cost, CDs and GGs too, with the cost of being responsible for what other CDs and their Partners will go through. Of course there is risk and cost tou ourselves, but we choose what harm will come to others by our inaction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deedee Dupree

Batty's several recent threads, including this one, indicate (to me) her motivations for posting interesting questions is done with the best intentions... for the common good.
..........
I consider her presence here, her knowledge and advocacy to be a tremendous asset to the forum and the TG community at large, despite my having to wade through the mountain of data she has made available.

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:yt:
Thank you DeeDee. I totally agree with everything you said. There is a difference between intellectual discussion and preaching. I can read Batty's posts and respond if I care to, but for the most part, these posts are intelligent food for thought that I truly appreciate, as are the thoughtful and respectful responses, whether in agreement or disagreement.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

It wasn't that long ago you made the claim that we as CD's were liars. Nothing to do with the children but more in reference to the OP that we should disclose all and be honest.

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Exactly! so why are you even bringing this up? My thread was about lying to your SO, not your children, I never even mentioned children. I never told them they had to be honest either, I just wanted to know why they hid it. I would NEVER tell a person to come out to anyone unless that's what they wanted to do. And many people do not want to come out in their towns, they are quite happy to stay in the closet, without all their neighbours etc knowing... Just because people aren't shouting it from the roof tops, doesn't mean they aren't supportive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

When Batty said we should be totally open and honest you tell her to lie. It can't be both ways.

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This is irrelevant, I never told anyone to be honest... I asked why they lie...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

You have explained before how you have raised your children to be open and tolerant. Exactly what age does this kick in? Batty would do it immediately you have a different time table.

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It kicks in when my partner says it kicks in, it's up to him when I tell them, not me, it's not my place. As for the rest, I raised them from birth to be tollerant of all, to be open minded, not to judge etc... like you're doing to me right now, judging the way I choose to tell my children, when it's NOT up to me to tell them about Tam is it! He already had his sister out him to her partner and it's caused them to become extremely distant, you think going via battys way is right then?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

If we could only make decisions on if we have done something, i.e. having children, diminishes the discussion by limiting input. You give your input on "dressing" yet I doubt you have ever been a M-F CD. The idea of this forum is to educate and support.

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Well duh, what a stupid thing to say, of course I'll never be a MTF CD, I'm a woman :rolleyes: But I live with a CD, I can give as much input as I possibly can, I ask him questions about it, maybe I should show him this thread, tell him that unless we're all shouting from the rooftops about living with TG's, we're not doing our bit... w/e...

I do not and never will support Battys idea of telling all, it's not my place and that means I'm not supportive, so be it :brolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tamara Croft

This is irrelevant, I never told anyone to be honest... I asked why they lie...

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But isn't lying to a child still lying? Not that I agreed that maintaining something as private even from an SO is lying. I think Lorileah is just suggesting that your comments seemed to go in one direction when about SOs and another children and that seems inconsistent without understanding why your view on each is different.

Quote:

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As for the rest, I raised them from birth to be tollerant of all, to be open minded, not to judge etc... like you're doing to me right now, judging the way I choose to tell my children, when it's NOT up to me to tell them about Tam is it!

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I didn't think anyone was judging you, simply pointing out what looks like (but may not be) an inconsistency.

And much of my posts has been about the kind of inconsistency we can all suffer from without realising it. And that future generations of TGs are the ones who suffer the consequences good or bad of our choices making us all responsible for them.

Edit: Further on the subject of TG kids, which the evidence of genetic aspects suggests should be more common for CD parents than not, are the following two links this one http://www.bilerico.com/2009/06/my_t...s_daughter.php comes from the transwoman whose picture in the mixed-race exhibition shown at a school caused a recent controversy and this http://www.bilerico.com/2009/06/list...interviews.php involves an interview with the executive director of transyouth family allies

:eek: Batty .................... You rerally need to get a life :D

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Originally Posted by Sheila

:eek: Batty .................... You rerally need to get a life :D

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What makes you think I don't have one?

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

Why am i wrong about their being a Moral and Ethical obligation? (and yes some people do fullfill the obligation, I'm not saying no-one is! I'm simply saying that it seems to be there and if so needs to be considered and discussed.



.....I'm not judging others. I'm exploring the nature of right and wrong in this matter. And not by a moral code, that's subjective, but by objective ethical principles......

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OK, first off you are wrong about there being moral and ethical principles by the simple fact YOU ARE judging others against what YOU believe to be true. What I believe to be true may not apply to someone else. Both of my children do indeed know about my ex husband being TG. How I treated that situation is not open to debate amongst anyone that feels they have the pulse on what it right and wrong. It is MY family and I don't feel the need to justify my actions to anyone.


How I interact with CD's, TG's and others isn't open for debate either. And I do have many I consider my family by the very nature of where we are as friends. All relationships require an open mind. Not one closed by the supposed failure of others to meet your expectations. NO ONE has the right to sit in judgment over others perceived actions. By doing so you are saying that you are right and they are wrong! How 'passe to be so judgmental:Angry3:

Crossdressing can be very hard on a relationship when you come out to your SO, but to say that you need to honest and come out to all parents, children, siblings, cousins workmates and your job, can be very very risky.......and for what, what can you possible gain by all......but look what can you possible lose by all.

But to suggest that your SO should risk their families, their friendships and their jobs about being open that they are in a relationship with a CD.....is asking for to much.

We Cd's are very selfish it is alway about me me me and the need to express myself and self acceptance.............do we really think about anyone else needs.

As a parent it is so funny how those with out kids always seam to know what is best for or kids.


LA CINDY LOVE

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LA CINDY LOVE

.and for what, what can you possible gain by all......but look what can you possible lose by all.

But to suggest that your SO should risk their families, their friendships and their jobs about being open that they are in a relationship with a CD.....is asking for to much.

We Cd's are very selfish it is alway about me me me and the need to express myself and self acceptance.............do we really think about anyone else needs.

As a parent it is so funny how those with out kids always seam to know what is best for or kids.


LA CINDY LOVE

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What can you gain? How about if everyone did it we would not have to whine about how bad life sucks in this forum? How about we could be treated like normal humans who are productive parts of society? The one thing that we would gain would be that the next paragraph of your post would be unneeded. Your spouse would not have to worry about any risk.

Here we go with the selfish thing again. Don't lump us all in that category. Many of us are very giving and benevolent. We contribute to society in many ways. And just for fun a lot of money is raised for charity by the drag shows and the Tri-ess groups. Why shouldn't we want acceptance? Are you saying we are "bad or ill" people? So that is now off the table, we are not anymore selfish than anyone else. :Angry3:

So every teacher who does not have children cannot possibly teach? Every Priest cannot council you. That argument is pretty leaky too. I know plenty of "parents" who have no clue how to raise a child. Giving birth is not a magic cure all.

So what exactly have you done Lorileah? Are you out to all your family, friends, work colleagues, neighbours etc etc?? Have you told everyone?

So what I am reading here as that my being active in the GBLT community isn't enough for some?

I have to be sure I stand outside with a bullhorn and yell " Hey, look at me! I am the mother of a gay child and all my friends are Gays, Lesbians, Bi-Sexual and Transgendered ! I know more than any of you about what is right and wrong!!! Sit right down and let me preach to you from my spiritual hilltop" Are you kidding me?:Angry3:

Why is this stuff always so polarised? None of it is black and white. It never will be. There is room for those who wish to shout from the rooftops - they provide something important to any community. There is room for stealth transitioners - they also provide something important. There is room for academic argument. There is room for emotion-based discussion. All of this stuff provides the variety we need to get closer to the truth. So why does it seem to make so many of us so angry?

As for me, well, I don't shout it from the rooftops. I speak it fairly quietly from ground level. I have told my whole family and all my real friends and have done so with one message only - tell anyone else you think you need or want to tell. Or tell no-one if that's what you want to do. I don't mind. So that's about doubled those who know. I'll answer to any questions from any of those people. I'll stand up for my TG friends and all TG people. But I still won't shout it from the rooftops. Because it's not my style.

I do enjoy Batty's academic postings though.

Sarah...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tamara Croft

Want to know what I really think? I think that's the biggest load of bullshit I've ever read, and I'm sick of reading your goddamn preaching bullshit.

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http://blog.shapingyouth.org/wp-cont...4/applause.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

You make good points. But the reality of both the CD and SO being raised in transphobia needs to be considered. That while the virtuous thing to do is for the CD to be honest and the SO totally accepting instantly neither of these things is always possible because we are human and subject to human frailties, including the unconcious influence of social pressures.

However not only do we have the power to change that now we know more, though it's hard for everyone and none of us should ignore that fact, but we have a responsibility not just to ourselves and our families and our TG descendants to do so but also a responsibility to those who will be raised in the same amount of transphobia we were unless we lessen it.

We who can know better and can act are responsible for the transphobia future CDs experience and we must weigh the personal cost, CDs and GGs too, with the cost of being responsible for what other CDs and their Partners will go through. Of course there is risk and cost tou ourselves, but we choose what harm will come to others by our inaction.

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Good points to you also Batty, we must understand though. First we were all raised some what different,religous beliefs, moral beliefs are some examples. Taking Transphopia out of this for now and then combine these differances can sometimes be an uphill battle.

We all have our own goals and ophinions of how not only how we should live our lives but how others should ,look at the political agendas here lately . If you choose to live you life openly hats off to you that makes you a rare bred a leader not a follower . My self I tend to keep my life on the quiet side and let it go by less un noticed ,a leader in my own direction.

Batty, we could go on with allegorical arguments for ever, but not one of the examples we use will perfectly illustrate or resolve the core issue. You will admit that each example either one of us and everyone else has used fits just one specific set of circumstances. We could all one-up each other with single purpose examples ad nauseam without resolving anything.

I propose we try to keep it simple and along fundamental lines so that we can move forward.

Your bottom line argument is, I believe, that if a CD has an obligation to tell his SO about the CDing, they both have a moral and ethical obligation to be honest with others, at least with their children, parents, siblings, and close friends, and preferably to the community at large including co-workers. And, they should do what they can in the TG community, the community at large, and politically to help fight for TG rights.

Further, if the CD and SO choose not to be honest with others and not to behave proactively, they fail themselves, their children, and future generations of TGs because they are contributing through their inaction, to the propagation of transphobia and internalized oppression, which we all recognize is a TG's death.

You are discussing the right thing to do. You would like to establish a "mission statement" if you will, in order to help guide future behavior among members of the TG community.

I for one agree with this. I also believe most others will agree as well. The right thing to do is to overcome our internalized transphobia so that we can help society rid itself of transphobia.

=================================

Since we all (for the most part I believe) agree on what is the right moral and ethical thing to do, we can stop focusing on this and move on to what each individual CAN do.

THIS is where there is disagreement. How much CAN a single individual or couple do? How much do their personal circumstances come into play in deciding what they can do, given all their different life circumstances and financial obligations to other family members? What is good enough, given that WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS with DIFFERENT LIFE CIRCUMSTANCES.

If we can focus on this part of the conversation, we will stop going around in circles.

Please, let's focus on specifics, as in, I can write to my State Rep. I can attend a TG support group tomorrow. I can come to this forum and try to help others overcome ITP. I can volunteer to go on a radio talk show in order to answer questions about myself and the TG world. I can begin to work on telling my daughter now. Or when she is old enough to understand. I can spend one evening per week with my husband dressed (since I have not done this before). I can ask the HR people at work whether there is a freedom of expression policy in the company. I can stop dictating to my husband whether he is allowed to CD or not, and if I cannot bear to see him in a dress, I will support his freedom to CD without me. Whatever.

But please, no more arguments about whether it is right or wrong to move forward. We all know it is right to support the CDing and to move forward. Now we must define how much moving forward is best for each one of us here and PLEASE STOP JUDGING each other for being on different points along the path, GIVEN ALL OUR INDIVIDUAL LIFE CIRCUMSTANCES!

Batty have you gone Batty? LOL! Seriously, this sort of debate belongs on a Metaphysical Forum. You can't ask people to sacrifice their lives for something they don't really understand themselves.

I appreciate your most recent post on this thread... and I have deleted 90% of what I had intended to say, except for one thing.
__________________________________________


Wow, seems like there isn't enough tolerance and understanding to go around so everybody can have a say, without being abused.

>>"Want to know what I really think? I think that's the biggest load of bullshit I've ever read, and I'm sick of reading your goddamn preaching bullshit."<<

It wasn't so long ago that Tamara accused me of being rude to a new OP by my saying, "You should have stated that at the beginning. I am done responding to your threads".

After being called on it and considering it for a moment, I concluded that her assessment may be correct and I apologized to the OP for making an impulsive remark.

Batty doesn't use vituperate language like Tamara's quote above, to anyone...

Yet Tamara thinks it is OK for her to make crude offensive comments and get away with it. Tamara doesn't agree with Batty, that's OK, but that is no excuse for her to express herself the way she did. I think she owes Batty an apology. Their differences on the topic are beside the point.

dd

Amanda, I don't think Batty is asking people to risk their lives.

I think she is trying to establish what is the right thing to do as a guide for the TG community to move forward as a whole. I'm sure everyone (and Batty?) will agree that we are all at different points along our paths. When you think of it, it is as great a battle for a non-supportive SO to agree to stretch to the point where she will support her husband's right to dress, as it is for someone who has never gone out dressed before to begin to go out, as it is for someone whose friends all know to now tell their children, as it is for someone whose entire family knows to begin taking steps about talking to his employers about freedom of expression in his workplace (if he works in a progressive environment).

IMO it is difficult to ask someone to go from step 1 to step 5 without first going through steps 2, 3, and 4. It would be unrealistic to expect a CD who has not even told his wife yet to volunteer hosting a TG Awareness Focus Group at the local community center.

But, everyone can write letters to government officials or join a TG Rights online group (anonymously if they must) to see what, if anything, they CAN do.

Isn't this better than not doing anything at all? ;)

Edited to add:

I hope Tam won't mind me speaking on her behalf, but as she's likely sleeping right now (in the UK), I'll put in my :2c:

Deedee everyone has their own personalities and communication styles. And yes, people's buttons do get pushed. It has happened to me. The members who have participated in this thread know each other well and IMO each one can well take care of themselves. I did not see Batty shy away! :) In my own life, I say things to friends in a tone I would never say to a stranger, because I know it is safe to do. They know me.

This has been a particularly heated thread, but sometimes it takes an emotional thread like this to finally reach a meaningful middle ground. We are talking about a difficult topic that causes each one of us to look deep inside ourselves.

(And please forgive me again for speaking on your behalf) but Tam always supports the underdog. You need only search the forum to see this. The personalities in this particular thread are strong and when all is said and done, I do believe everyone will become friends again. At the least, they will respect each other's opinions.
:hugs:

My reference to risking lives was allegorical.

Batty's post has been viewed as an attack. Batty is saying she has the moral high-ground and we have all been found wanting unless we believe as she does. Therefore, Batty has laid the groundwork that her moral argument is superior just by her stating it. If this is true, it's the height of arrogance. I assume of course, that that is not what she meant. I'll leave it to her to clear the air.

I believe that most human behavior is nonmoral. It’s not right and it’s not wrong. The scope of morality isn’t (and shouldn’t be) as wide as some people want to make it. We should resist the temptation to moralize everything we do. No one conquers Satan in the bathroom or at the bowling alley. Moral crusaders generally want to rob everyone of their legitimate and essentially harmless freedoms under the false belief that nothing is exempt from the rule of their righteousness.

I like Batty. She has a big brain and makes good points. However, I don’t believe that gender expression is a moral activity and that it should be protected or promoted by moral obligations. It is a completely subjective type of behavior that is perfectly justified by self-sufficient personal authority. People who want to support the fair freedom of any type of gender expression should do so in the manner of their private choosing. It might be true that if everyone did more then more would get done, but no one is under any principal obligation to do more than they want to do to support gender freedom.