IS become TS if they are surgically assigned wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pythos
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IS become TS if they are surgically assigned wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pythos
If anyone feels slighted by this conversation, they shouldn't. If you feel slighted than you have to look inwards, not out... I felt that lack of self esteem and inability to feel good about myself for my whole life. Ironically, as a transsexual I soothed myself by thinking of myself as a crossdresser or autogynephile...i felt those were "better"....I had learn to feel good about myself, and get over my self loathing about my gender.
Nobody is better than anyone else because of their gender identity or because of how they are living as it relates to gender..
Guys in dresses do not help transsexuals gain acceptance. The gender binary is something that is debated here often. The gender binary includes most people, and it excludes the rest. Being included in that binary has meaningful benefits, not the least of which is finding work. And if you view yourself as simply male or female, the binary is something that feels natural...If any of you folks that work as male would like to put crossdressing as your activity in your resume, or 63% male/37% female on your next job application, by all means do so.
Kaitlyn,
That's hitting it squarely on the head.
You summed it all up extremely well.
Julia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
Which is precisely how I live my life. And the story still unfolds and hopefully will continue to do so for many years. This is not to say that my life isn't peppered with moments of absolute joy along with miserable despair. Maybe it's my optimistic nature. Maybe it's because I've been self-aware for so many years and am at a level of acceptance which allows for some semblance of equilibrium in trying to navigate this middle path. Or perhaps 2012 has in store for me much more than I could ever imagine when it comes to my gender issues. My point is two-fold. I know many people who are so similar to myself that it is almost scary. I am here to say that it is possible to be TS and still stay on a middle path...and be reasonably content, and even happy, provided there are outlets for expression of the person, the woman in my heart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
The TG umbrella exists for better or for worse, even if only in academia for purposes of categorization and discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
What I don't get is that there are members of the LGB community who abhor the idea of T being included. The exclusion of others in our community by the transitioned TS crowd smacks of the same exclusionary behavior.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia_in_Pa
What makes both of you so bold to think that everyone under the proverbial umbrella is trying to take on the same rights as you?Quote:
Originally Posted by SandraAbsent
I don't know the thread you are talking about but I seriously doubt the idea of a lawsuit in this case has anything to do with the TS side of things. Instead, it has more to do with dress code but either way, it could very well bleed into other aspects that do in fact affect how things develop in society for those who are full time transitioning. Hmmm, I think I'm seeing how that umbrella thing works. There can easily be an interrelationship among the groups which are present that goes beyond gender expression and/or identity to socio-political ramifications, whether by way of legal issues or changes in anti-discrimination laws.Quote:
Originally Posted by SandraAbsent
Gosh, this sounds just like those oft-used expressions, "I have friends who are (insert any ethnic minority)" or "I have many gay frends" and these are often followed by a phrase beginning with the word "but..." Do you realize how utterly divisive this is? And then to say some of our challenges are similar (thus making a case for said umbrella), and most of our challenges are totally different. Like that's a newsflash, again making a case for the continuum which resides underneath that umbrella.Quote:
Originally Posted by SandraAbsent
Part of this is nearly verbatim to what I have said in the past, and how I live my life, even though I am not one of the CD'ers you are directing this at. I am 100% mindful of the actions I take when I am in public. I acknowledge that I represent a community and know very well that while I can choose to remove most aspect of my feminine presentation at any time, there are others who are unable to do so. But the Muggles have no idea where we as individuals stand underneath the TG umbrella (darn, there's that concept again) as long as we're perceived as being TG. This goes for the fully transitioned woman to the CD'er who is out and about.Quote:
Originally Posted by SandraAbsent
Could this be any more hypocritical? You have used the umbrella term and/or concept when it suits your point, yet you reject the concept. Which is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by SandraAbsent
And could you be any more condescending? Let us do our work and the result will be a better world for you too!?!?
My goodness.:sad:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber99
Sorry, I had forgotten that so many go through that barbaric act. Surgical reassignment and birth should be banned except when the child's life is at stake...not sure how that would be by the way.
So what I have learned from this thread is that I contribute to TSs, and to an extent ISs, having a hard time in society. I and people like myself that view the strict following of the gender binary in the manner it is followed, are who justify bigotry outside of the bedroom, or on the job.
It is not the bigots, it is not the homophobes. Nooooo, it is I, who when dressed present an exotic and attractive look. So much so that at the clubs I am photographed quite often. I have embraced an IS individual as my GF, and abhor those that truly do give CDers a bad image.
Wow! I guess I must stop, so that I don't damage the image of those that I SUPPORT their rights of existence. I don't go around and say Transsexuals give CDers a bad image, cause they make the muggles think all CDers eventually transition, and there are muggles out there that think the act of transitioning is wrong.
Also about the thread concerning the individual getting reprimanded at work for wearing a bra. you think this was right? If he was flaunting it then perhaps there is some ground for this sort of thing, but if it was well hidden then that is BS.
When it comes to myself. I just wish I could present however I wished, and not have to worry about losing my job, or my house, or getting beaten. But the reality is, I can. Just because I don't feel the drive or need to change my sex does not mean I think that those that do are lowering CDers, or giving me a bad image.
I would appreciate it if I was given that same respect.
On another note: Male Privilege. This only exists for men that are type A. A for A-hole. In my jobs I have no more "privilege" than a equally capable female. That is the same kind of crap as telling me I have "white privilege". I know of many people that do not fit the white category and they are doing far better than myself with LESS education. So I frankly have not seen me being a beneficiary of having "male privilege" or any other kind of privilege.
Over all, when it comes to seeking rights. What we are seeking are basic human rights. The right to live with no threat to our livelihood no matter how we present ourselves, to not be threatened with losing our jobs for something that for all rights should not matter. I want no more rights than anyone else, I just want those that are denied me and others like myself to be given back.
@ Sara
The TS/IS communities have to constantly battle public opinion concerning who and what we are.
It is exhausting to have to explain within the legal arena as to the reasoning why we need laws protecting us.
We have to battle those forces that think it's a part time thing or a cross dressing fetish concerning those that have transitioned to full time.
We have little if anything in common with the transgender umbrella once we go into full time status.
It's an everyday battle for the full time TS/IS community as a whole to disassociate themselves from part timer's, cross dresser's and fetishists in order to get laws passed that will stop discrimination in public accommodation, housing, restroom use, employment, etc.
Are you full time? Have you ever gone on a job interview as YOU? Have you attempted to rent an apartment as YOU?
If you are not full time you have absolutely no idea what these challenges are for us that are full time.
Like I've said before, most of the transgender umbrella gets to revert back to their male presentation in order to live another day, we do not.
I cannot care what those that feel slighted think because they are not in our shoes.
you can be offended all you want but the fact remains that if you are not full time you will not understand fully this battle we wage.
Julia
It's interesting how the post-op transexual comes completely full circle. A Crossdresser, (and many transexuals start off here before they realize who they are) often hides in the closet as a safety net, and lives in secrecy and often bashes gays and won't hesitate to bash another crossdresser so they can be seen as a "man". A post-op transexual hides behind their surgically altered body and then rejects crossdressers, and calls them perverts, and tries to blend in with women. It's ironic though, that society as a whole would call them the same thing. The disdain shown by some here is pathetic, and no matter how much you call it truth, it's nothing more than bigotry and hate.
The umbrella term isn't going anywhere whether it's rejected by the community or not. It's there for psychiatric reasons. We all have a "disorder" (granted I dislike the term) but that's what the psychiatric community calls it. It's there as an umbrella of all people that don't fit that wonderful binary gender system our society embraces. (It's worth noting most societies in history recognized a third gender) So whether you embrace it, reject it, accept it, doesn't really matter. Society labels us, we don't.
On a final note, before I leave this thread in distaste. I don't know what part of the transition turns you into a nasty person, but I'm thankful I don't have to go through it (at least not yet). I have no desire to become a bitter hateful person. So feel special all you want, and try to remember. You are NOT special, and a big chunk of society will happily kill you for being a "pervert" whether you have a penis or not.
Edit: I shouldn't generalize. It isn't "ALL" transexuals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia_in_Pa
If it is so important to disassociate from them why you do you associate with them on a site call crossdressers.com?
This thread started going off track when it descended into a fight about whether TG was an umbrella and if so who should have the right to shelter under that umbrella.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if we have scared off JenniferLuvsPunk and never see her again.
I do not think I have ever seen so much hipocracy as I have read here. Starting off with some women of transsexual history that berate CDers of fetish or other reasons. You may have a female gender identity, but your gender expression is so extremely masculine competative. There is not one ounce of female nurturing gender expression in uour soul. And you weep and complain about fem radicals (who are masculine gender expression also) who exclude you. All they are doing to you is what you are doin to CDers. The problem of bogotry of this sort is the bigot is so blinded by their bigotry they do not and will not understand their bigotry.
Gender identity is not the same as gender expression. I have known many women of transsexual history that were able to live for years hiding their opposite gender identity necause they did not have much opposite gender expression. Many gay men have suffered over the years because of their opposite gender expression. Some crossdressers have spent years being bullied, including today by women of transsexual history, because of their innate opppsite gender expression. A pox on all who are not nurturing of everyone who is or was trans, trans for whatever reason.
Transgender is an adjective that describes a group of people who are related to each other in
typical and subtypical ways. You can play the name game any way you want, but our general and specific relationships are determined by similar biological imperatives that can't be differentiated just because we talk about them in different ways.
Everyone is so perfectly special, we think. We all hate it when someone tries to invade our territory or usurp our identities, don't we? Some of us can't stand some of our family members or other people who are classed with us in ways that can't be denied. Oh well, too bad, so sad to say.
Transgender people (including crossdressers, transsexuals, and others) are related by blood not marriage or social convention. We can't divorce ourselves from each other by shining a light on our subordinate differences because our dominant similarities shine brighter. Transgender is the family name for all of us in the court of human nature. You can try to disown it in a lower court, but your petition will be overruled by a higher one.
I agree with Suzy about something. O.oQuote:
Originally Posted by suzy1
This is weird.
What I've observed, dealing with my local college-age queer population, is that it's not the transvestic fetishists co-opting transsexualism and our medical model, it's a bunch of feminine gays, lesbians, and fruit flies who think that being transgendered is trendy, never mind that none of them will ever transition. The trans* group is essentially a spinoff from the lesbian community - it's dominated by female assigned at birth genderqueers, with the occasional legit FtM. I'm the only MtF who has ever shown up in the history of that organization, and I'm disinclined to ever return. It seems as though 'T' is only accepted if one was FAB - femme-phobia runs rampant among gays, and transmisogyny is the order of the day among the rest of the queers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sara Jessica
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that JenniferLuvsPink probably shouldn't have made this thread, given that zie could have found an answer to zir question with either google or a search through the archives on this site.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rianna Humble
If I was going to troll a bunch of elderly and middle-aged transsexual women, this is precisely the sort of topic I would bring up. That, or ".xx caliber for self-defense?"
Gender essentialism much, hon'?Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeInGeorgia
If I liked dogma, I'd go to church.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pink Person
Short of achieving as close to perfect stealth as possible, the fact remains that the post-op woman can be mis-labeled by others regardless of whether or not the weekend-CD'er is active in being out in society. Making this obvious statement brings me no joy, it is what it is, and I'd personally expect the exact same thing personally short of miraculous results of HRT & FFS. So while I do understand the exasperation that is likely to result when the fully transitioned and integrated woman finds herself having to "explain" the nature of her TG being, it seems counter-productive to outright reject those others who at least share something in common that led everyone to be placed under the same umbrella term, transgendered.Quote:
Originally Posted by JodyCD
This is true although there is a movement by some outspoken members on the TS side of the fence to change this fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by JodyCD
Really, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other what academia does with this term, and whether the above referenced TS contingent is successful. What matters to me is the disrespect that I see within these pages. This is part of my world, a place where I go for solace, advice (both given & received) and even perhaps a dash of vanity. I participate with one foot on the CD side of the fence and another on the TS side because this is where I am, on a middle path. Bottom line, my head & heart clearly convey to me that I am TS. Perhaps this is why the whole umbrella and continuum concepts make so much sense to me because both help me understand my place in the world. But to see such outright rejection and holier-than-thou (oh, I'm sorry, "more-trans-than-thou") attitudes that can be so pervasive, those need to be called out.
Apparently part of the premise is that anyone who is not full-time contributes to the woes of those who are. I had no idea we had so much sway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pythos
For any of us who are not full time but venture outside of the safe confines of our homes, these are legitimate concerns which are not likely to be concerns of those who do not step out (and therefore demonstrates that not everyone under said umbrella is looking to co-op rights that are not necessary). But I guess it was said before, you and I need to step aside and let the big girls do all the heavy lifting and as a result, we will eventually reap the benefits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pythos
I acknowledge our ability to retreat towards "male privilege" as being a perception that is in fact reality in many circles. Just being able to "take off the girl" and revert back into a world of gender binary makes this so. However, just because many of us can do this doesn't mean we either embrace it or take advantage of it. As I said before, it is what it is and I don't see this as something that should be used against us, like we are of a lesser trans-species by not being full-time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pythos
Such a very fair statement, Pythos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pythos
And perhaps someday this battle will no longer need to be fought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia_in_Pa
Ya know, if this is such a pervasive hurdle to be overcome, what's so hard about making the distinction you see necessary and then moving on? It's all part of educating the Muggles about our community. Disassociating yourself from the entirety of the community will never change that fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia_in_Pa
No, no, and no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia_in_Pa
But please, give other human beings a little credit as to the capacity to understand a rather simple concept. I get it. I don't have to be full time to fully comprehend the challenges faced by those who are. Really, it isn't rocket science. And maybe my understanding of the big picture is a major reason I choose not to go down that path.
And?Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia_in_Pa
So what.
Like I said above, this ability doesn't mean it's embraced and speaking for myself, it certainly doesn't impact my ability to empathize.
Julia, you are one of the most interesting people I have encountered here in that you present as having a complete lack of empathy which tells me you cannot comprehend this capacity being able to exist in others. You say you don't care and I totally believe you. I am not here to change your mind but I hope I offer an alternate POV to those who might be inclined to line up behind your myopic and in my opinion, misguided, take on this whole subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia_in_Pa
I have dear friends on the CD end of the spectrum. I have dear friends who are fully transitioned. I have seen death as a result of GID from way too close of a vantage point. I have also seen more joy that comes from our shared experiences which makes shedding despair in favor of happiness so worthwhile. Like I said before, the knowledge I have gained by being included on the TS side of things has contributed to my empathy which impacts how I conduct myself when I am fortunate to be out & about as my true self. Therefore, you can continue your rants about separation and I will continue to be true to everyone within our community who shows respect not only for natal females but also to those of us who are making their way in this wonderful world full-time.
I only partially agree. The "biological imperatives" don't have anything like consensus and, in any event, only seem to apply when gender is at issue (whether or not acknowledged or known). There are varieties of behavior that have no source in biological considerations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pink Person
On the higher court comment, I think people, by and large, can distinguish between, say, a transsexual and someone who dresses up for the local sex club event, just as they recognize distinctions in the gay community. The haters, rednecks, and bashers aren't going away, but I truly don't believe that constitutes most of the population.
Lea
Fortunately, until you become the administrator, any member has the right to start a thread like this whether or not you approveQuote:
Originally Posted by konkbent
In case you haven't been paying attention Arbon this thread exists in the TS area.
I also receive an incredible amount of comic relief from the cross dresser threads.
The fixation on women's panties and bra's is quite hilarious.
It's like a train wreck, you can't stop looking. LOL!!
Now move on.
Julia
Quote:
Originally Posted by arbon
Jody get off your high horse ... I'm not distancing myself from anyone..you accuse others of bigotry and hate?...saying I am "hiding behind my surgically altered body" is mean spirited and totally false. I do not hide...you do! It shows your disdain for transsexuals to use those words... I do not distance myself from anyone..I am not even remotely hypocritical in any way...I am deeply involved in the transsexual and transgendered community.... I get up in front of hundreds of people as a transsexual and I explain to them who I am to ovations...
I tell people that all transgendered people need support, that all tg people deserve good treatment, safety and the ability to feel good about themselves..I tell people how there is every type of gender presentation..
Just a flying visit here, ladies,
Stir-Stir...
Has anyone given a thought to the etymology here?
"trans" is a Latin noun or prefix, meaning "across", "beyond" or "on the opposite side".
"gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.
"sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.
"vestitus" is a latin word for "dressed".
That leaves the translation of "trans-gender" and "trans-sexual" a bit clearer. :-)
The former implies that the person PRESENTS as a member of the opposite gender in society. The latter implies that the person HAS certain characteristics of the opposite sex to which they were born.
If we now look at these definitions then ANYONE who PRESENTS as a member of the opposite gender COULD be referred to as "Transgender". It doesn't matter if that person is "just" a crossdresser. There is no requirement for a transgender person to be transsexual according to this definition. A "transsexual" person may have physical, emotional and/or mental characteristics of the opposite sex, but need not PRESENT as having those characteristics. Once again, there is no requirement for a transsexual person to be transgendered, even though most of them are.
From the above, isn't it justified to say that referring to a transsexual person as transgendered is NOT an insult? It merely states that the person in question is PRESENTING as a person of the opposite gender to their birth. The two terms are different.
The problem is that we are short of precise nouns to describe those who have already:
a) completed transition from one sex to the other (we can't kid ourselves, there is no such thing as 100% sex change. Even a surgeons knife doesn't remove our early upbringing and memories which stay with us all our lives.)
b) someone who dresses in clothes of the opposite sex, but not for sexual gratification. The word "transvestite" has now become too sexually-charged to be used for this group, which is a pity because it is otherwise fairly accurate. "cross-dresser" is probably as close as we can get and is a reasonable translation from the latin.
Note that a cross-dresser or transvestite are not, by definition, transsexual but may be classified as transgendered. All transgendered people MUST be transvestites, cross-dressers and/or transsexual in order to present as their chosen gender.
OK. I'll put my flac jacket on and dive down into the bunker again. :-)
I have no problem with the terminology as long as people understand the difference.
I'd also like to note that transexuals are fighting for acceptance and RIGHTS.
Crossdressers only need to worry about acceptance.
What I don't like is people comparing the struggles of a transexual to the struggles of a crossdresser. And I don't like that when we're fighting for our rights, we're compared to the people who are happy being their physical gender and simply enjoy crossdressing for whatever reason. They don't want to give us the rights everyone else has because they think we're just crossdressers who like to talk about what color panties we're wearing.
A crossdresser doesn't have to worry about how the laws affect them or hold them back from being who they are. They dont have to worry about being arrested for using a public restroom. They don't have to worry about being allowed to get married or adopt a child. They don't have to worry about losing their job or finding a new one because they are different. They don't have to worry about where all the money is going to come from to allow for their transition to be who they really are.
And Jody, transexuals aren't hiding behind anything once they transition. They are finally able to take off the mask that was hiding them. You're saying that all the post-op transexuals are hateful... i think you are full of yourself and have a bit of hate yourself.
there are 8 billion people on the planet if one doesn't like you move on
One of the missing links between crossdressers and transsexuals (and any other kind of transgender person) is that they are not cisgender. I raise this negative definition of transgender people because some of you will absurdly deny any positive link between members of different transgender groups. This common bond between transgender people is based on a truism, not dogma. Church mice who think that dogma drives any type of gender identification and classification should return to their dark holes for a second opinion. If it was all about dogma, then transgender populations wouldn't exist because there is no such thing as a transgender dogma that would support their propagation.
The gender distinctions that people make about themselves are important. You can prove it by challenging anyone's self-identification and observing the reaction it provokes. However, some differences don't make us different, and some similarities don't make us the same. We have to weigh our similarities and differences, objectively and subjectively, to reach a balanced conclusion. You might tip the transgender scale heavily or lightly, in one direction or the other, but none of us slides off of it. We all register somewhere on the transgender scale. We don't register on the cisgender scale. We don't register on the cisgender scale because the characteristics that identify transgender people don't have the same weight as the characteristics that identify cisgender ones. This is the order of distinct difference that should matter most to us. We are not cisgender. Once you have recognized this fact then it will be easier for you to accept the true scale of your relationships with other people. Perhaps it will make you more generous to the other queers you might now be prone to bashing.
Um, I would like to know what world you live in. I cannot preset as I prefer if I want to get a house, I cannot use a restrroom in the general public if in my preferred mode. I was unaware that I could go into an adoption clinic skirted and be able to get on the list to be able to adopt. I don't have to worry about my job? Really? Funny I have heard of CDs losing thier jobs for being sited OFF THE JOB. The last point is the only truism of your whole post.Quote:
A crossdresser doesn't have to worry about how the laws affect them or hold them back from being who they are. They dont have to worry about being arrested for using a public restroom. They don't have to worry about being allowed to get married or adopt a child. They don't have to worry about losing their job or finding a new one because they are different. They don't have to worry about where all the money is going to come from to allow for their transition to be who they really are.
IT IS BASIC human rights we strive for. ALL OF US. That's it, that's all.
I can only speak for myself, but I don't recall saying anything about everyone under the umbrella trying to take the same right as me. To deny that some are would be foolish, and often times I see these rights being fought for under circumstances that make this whole thing look like a game. It simply makes me angry.Quote:
What makes both of you so bold to think that everyone under the proverbial umbrella is trying to take on the same rights as you?
If you are flying the Transgender Flag protesting that you have the right to under-dress and not be called into question about it than it is a TS issue. It also happens to be a perfect example of seeking rights and protections being fought for under circumstances that make this entire thing look like a game.Quote:
I don't know the thread you are talking about but I seriously doubt the idea of a lawsuit in this case has anything to do with the TS side of things. Instead, it has more to do with dress code but either way, it could very well bleed into other aspects that do in fact affect how things develop in society for those who are full time transitioning. Hmmm, I think I'm seeing how that umbrella thing works. There can easily be an interrelationship among the groups which are present that goes beyond gender expression and/or identity to socio-political ramifications, whether by way of legal issues or changes in anti-discrimination laws.
Did I follow my statement with the word "but..."? I have many ethnic minority, friends and I love them. I have many gay friends and I love them. I have many CDer friends and I love them. Someone posted earlier that crossdressers seek acceptance, I support them 100% in this. I have this in common but by no means was I making a case for the umbrella with this commonality. Their is a huge difference between acceptance and legal rights. So am I sounding divisive? Yes but not without cause and certainly without the bigotry you implied.Quote:
Gosh, this sounds just like those oft-used expressions, "I have friends who are (insert any ethnic minority)" or "I have many gay frends" and these are often followed by a phrase beginning with the word "but..." Do you realize how utterly divisive this is? And then to say some of our challenges are similar (thus making a case for said umbrella), and most of our challenges are totally different. Like that's a newsflash, again making a case for the continuum which resides underneath that umbrella.
Thank you, but not all are mindfull. A quick read through these forums will reveal that at times. Unfortunately and often these are the examples that are used to argue the legal matters that transsexuals face. It simply makes me angry.Quote:
Part of this is nearly verbatim to what I have said in the past, and how I live my life, even though I am not one of the CD'ers you are directing this at. I am 100% mindful of the actions I take when I am in public. I acknowledge that I represent a community and know very well that while I can choose to remove most aspect of my feminine presentation at any time, there are others who are unable to do so. But the Muggles have no idea where we as individuals stand underneath the TG umbrella (darn, there's that concept again) as long as we're perceived as being TG. This goes for the fully transitioned woman to the CD'er who is out and about.
Quote:
What you do at home, work and play as a CDer does have an effect on me, because it effect how others view the (and i will use the umbrella term here) "Transgender" population. If you let us do our work the result will be a better world for you too!
I never used it when it suited my point. I may have used it descriptively, but as a whole I reject the concept. I believe 100% that the rights and acceptance that crossdressers seek are, although similar in nature, a separate issue. Just like I believe that the differences between intersexed and transexuals are night and day to a crossdresser.Quote:
Could this be any more hypocritical? You have used the umbrella term and/or concept when it suits your point, yet you reject the concept. Which is it?
And could you be any more condescending? Let us do our work and the result will be a better world for you too!?!?
My goodness.
In terms of being condescending. If you view it that way, I guess no I could not be more condescending. Those of us on the front line of the fight stand to gain the biggest freedoms in victory. The overall outcome is greater understanding for everyone, including those who choose to only marginally be engaged. I dont see that as condescending, I see it as the truth.
I dont normally rip apart a response like this, but I really felt under attack with the manor that you dissected my comments and felt the need to clarify my position. For the record, tread lightly the next time you want to imply that someone that you know nothing about is bigoted. Simple matter of fact is that there is a huge difference between crossdressers and those of us that put out gender on trial ever moment of every day. There is a huge difference in motivations, need for acceptance, and need for legal protections.
Actually a few pages back some here said you should NOT be able to use the restroom of your preferred mode, because if you aren't a transitioning transexual, you are a pervert that masturbates to panties. But they say I'M the one full of myself.:brolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pythos
Jody, you are a trip... since we don't know you, and we only know you by what you write, what you write simply has no meaning..
what a silly argument you make in an internet forum.. you try to reduce us all, but i am happy to be known by what i write here, i guess you are not..
I agree, I wish etymology could help, we could just go to the history of words..and the topic is interesting to many people, but day to day? not so much..
Pinky person babycakes apple fruit bat, i dig your crazy vibe.. mice and pudding and pumpkin pie..whatever..
for those focusing on the inability of srs and surgical procedures to make us "fully" female, you are demonstrating the problem, your attitude is killing us, you are proving the point by demonstrating how little you know about transsexuality and transsexuals lives..
yes the medical technology is terrific, but its also terrifically expensive...
and lots of transsexuals live in deep sadness at how male they appear, or live in courageous defiance of how people look at them..
the surgeries have a huge positive impact on our quality of life, but the surgeries and hormones have NOTHING to do with being ts!!!
and comments that it does demonstrate the superficiality you ascribe to your own behavior, and highlights just how different we are..
In the end, i am stuck with the label of tg.....
the "world" as it is looks at the word transgendered and lumps in every type of gender nonconformity, and doesnt really spend much time worrying about it.. and that is a problem for me to overcome...
Sara, i agree that there is joy in sharing a broader community of people...LGB and T, CD/IS/TS/TG...it is all good and we are all friends..but that doesnt help me get a job..
Pythos, are you a man? Because from the posts I've read of yours, you seem to be somewhere in between male and female I thought. In that case, you are dressing as you identify and don't identify as a MAN, therefor you're not simply a crossdresser. By crossdresser mean MEN who wear WOMEN's cloths. Not people who identify between genders or the opposite gender.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pythos
EDIT: Trying to go back and read some of your posts and maybe I'm wrong... so you do identify entirely as a man and you just like to wear girls cloths? Then I'm so sorry it's so hard for you to put on a pair of pants to go to the adoption agency... Transexuals can't constantly go back and fourth pretending to be their birth gender to get by after transition. Sure it would be great if people didn't judge you based on the cloths you wear, but that struggle for you, my dear, is nothing compared to being transexual. You can easily get by through your entire life and have all the rights I mentioned and still be able to express yourself enough to keep yourself from suicide.
I'm sorry, but if you're a crossdressing male then you use the men's restroom. If you're against that then you need to fight for the desegregation of restrooms.Quote:
Originally Posted by JodyCD
Rather off the topic, but yes I think it's pointless to segregate them. A stall is a stall is a stall, and a sicko is going to go in to a bathroom to assault a woman dressed as a man. Keeping a crossdresser out of them won't keep the predators out of them. IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bree_K
Also note, I'm not a crossdresser. (I don't think.) Somewhere between as I said before.
Now, personal insults aside, (I assure you I don't care in the least for those of you flinging them out there) Is it really surprising that you get a little lash back when everyone gets clumped into the fetish cd category and mocked by some here if they aren't transitioning? I mean really. Use common sense, if you mock people, people are going to reply in kind.
A serious question: Do you all really believe that it's so black and white? Do you really believe, as Julia so eloquently put it, that all those that aren't in transition are just doing it to masturbate into panties? I really have trouble believing that you people would hold those views. I've seen you, Bree make some extremely intelligent comments on threads here, and I truly have trouble believing that you (and your just an example here) would buy into that.
My "high horse" is just an equal and opposite reaction to some of the extremely insulting statements in this thread. I'm not strictly a crossdresser no, but it hits hard and it hurts. Especially when I see those that I respected hopping right on board with it.
Keeping crossdressers or transexuals out of certain bathrooms doesn't do anything. I don't see a need to have separate bathrooms. But we're kinda stuck with mens/womens bathrooms right now, and getting transexuals the right to use the bathroom of their gender is far more likely if we're not also fighting for crossdressing men to use women's bathrooms. If crossdressers can use the bathroom they please, then where do you draw the line? Why let some men use the women's bathroom and not other men? And frankly, if a crossdressing male identifies as a MAN, what's the problem with using the MENS room? And no I don't think all crossdressers are jerking it into panties in front of a mirror... but a lot of people do... even people that decide our rights.Quote:
Originally Posted by JodyCD
I do think that as long as we have separate bathrooms for men and women, that people should use the bathroom of the gender that they identify as... the gender that's on your driver's license.
No it's not black and white at all... but that's what we have to deal with from the cisgendered world. To make any headway, we still have to use the broken system.
We can't make everything perfect overnight, so we have to do what we can. And frankly, I think we need to fight for the rights of the people that are suffering the most.
Actually Bree. My mind works as both male and female according all the brain tests (both silly and legitimate). My body is male, but my build is slight (though compared to my Girl Friend, I still have large hands and feet....booo. LOL.) So my preferred style is essentially the opposite of what some call "butch", and always of a Goth, industrial look.
That is something my girlfriend loves about me is I am a fine mix of the two, though lean more toward the male.
That being said. Why is it we cannot not fight for just basic rights. Not specific rights, but rights for all. No one should have their threatened for something that really does not control their performance.
As far as your "sorry you can't put on a pair of pants to go into an adoption agency" That was a bit silly. First of why should I have to. Once again, why should it matter what I wear? As long as it is decent and clean. That should be it.
Its is really a pitty, that some seem not get support of the crossdresser community - I mean, if we are verbaly reduced to perverts I wonder what will happen. Look back into USA, if I am not wrong, there have been transgender helping groups which were only for heterosexuals, cause of fear and antipathy to gay people. Probably the huge spectra of crossdressers reaches from some pervert to some almost transsexuals - and for me I know the amount of pervert in me and I don't know you what if we would compare I would not be (much) more pervert than transsexuals - I assume everyone possesses fantasies, which can be named pervert in some sense and if there is some self attraction by my female illusion or by fantasizing about beeing (forced or willingly) dressed up you should be careful to name me and others perverts.
I guess, but don't know, that in this world are much more crossdressers than transsexuals, if for good or not does not matter. ButI would be surprised if our support is not of interest. If even a crossdresser does not sympathize with a transsexual, well than who does?
It is strange sometimes I really hoped that my desire of dressing comes not from any sexual side but from feeling and behaving like a woman - which is for sure to 80% not the case - probably also a silly fantasy, even pervert? I started to admire or deeply respect transsexuals for what the are and how they overcome there problems and there fight - but by reading here several post I really have to question my attitude.
What do you thing of those wo start as crossdresser and become transsexual later?
And as I wrote 2 pages before, do you really think that any success for crossdressers whould be nothing for you, and even if it is melting the social role boundaries... can't believe, that this would be nothing to you.
(you refers here to all high horse transsexuals, I hope and assume this does not count for all and maybe I got some comments wrong here)
A small point for the easy thing about toilets (I don't care, but anyway): Going dressed up to a mens room causes strange reactions of everyone, even if they are standing and doing there business, also you can easily get your nice dress or skirt dirty in the cabin, thanks to reduced hygiene standards. Going to a womens room causes less distraction, everyone is separated anyway and reapplying your makeup bothers less. But yeah, I am a strong male individual and can therefore deal with it.
It is also a nice comment, that I must not go out to work in "female" closes, because I would risk my job and all I read here is, this is perfectly fine, cause I can go to my male self and can happily work - are you kidding? This should be equal rights?
Can it be, that some defend the traditional gender role, maybe cause of there proud to manage in a huge attemped and under much pain to switch the gender? I assume such a great success in self fulfilment
can make you hard (?) and attacking people quite lightly even if they are not going to do you any harm - I hope for you, you can overcome this bad attitude which contradicts all you have achieved.
@ Tania_aCrossdresser, we wrote the comments at the same time, probably yours would have been enough. :) - anyway a strange name for a sentence like I am not a crossdresser :D (just kidding)
If we ask for everything then we will get nothing. It's better to try for something achievable, especially when transsexual girls are still offing themselves at such alarming rates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pythos
When you start reducing things to simplistic "we are all equal, rights for all " type statements, you are introducing a strawman, and reducing the discussion to the absurd.....who can be against "rights" for "all"..
Does a murderer have the "right" to kill his victim...what is a "right"?, who decides what is a right? what if my "rights" go against your "rights"..its childish..
btw
Why can't a transsexual have the "right" to be NOT transgendered? get it? so pls stop making that meaningless statement..
It's also a strawman to bring up your own inability to transition as an example.. If you want to transition and can't, you are likely a transsexual. It's a unique set of problems you have...If you feel comfortable with the term transgendered, its totally for you to say. You live as a male, and dress as a female, that's pretty transgendered to me.. NOT transitioning does not exclude you in any way.. I go to a huge support group and its 20% transition/80% not transition out of the ts group..and after years of trial and error, the cd's disappeared and became part of their own group...the group naturally split into ts and tg... and there is quite a bit of jealousy and resentment similar to what ts women go through here...
does transition make us hard? Yes. Transition is the end of all the bs in your life.. and bs is soft, warm and comfortable despite the odor...it sucks when it goes away.
Yes there have been some insults lobbed in...but frankly those of you that are speaking totally from a crossdressing point of view are being very bigoted towards the fetish population...and you accuse ts people of hypocrisy....
There are tons of fetishists, surely nice people that get off in all kinds of ways... The idea that Julia expressed was sound (even if julia expressed it in an insulting way to some)...the idea was that transsexuals have nothing in common with that group of people...that's it... and hopefully you will all get this (apologies is you don't and feel insulted) but we don't wear clothes for ANY OTHER reason than to put them on our body, and when we wear our clothes, we go to work in them, we see our kids in them, and we apply for jobs in them...we usually dress in a LESS feminine manner than crossdressers, and to be included in a group that wears clothes for sexual gratification or to idealize the feminine form is something i deal with face to face with people.....
and it doesnt help you or me in any way...it has nothing to do with you..
If the biggest problem you have is the "right" to choose your toilet place, then i'm sorry but i can't get all up in arms over it... for the record, i am indifferent...genetic women don't want guys in the bathroom..its not about a stall is a stall...gg's fart, shit, piss, apply makeup, and engage in feminine hygiene, i've never met a woman who wants a guy in the room ...its a guy thing to say a stall is a stall, its not a girl thing...and guess what.. ALL people have RIGHTS....so gg's must have the right to kick you out of their bathroom..
As a non gg, i know i would risk a problem if i did not appear gg...but it would be the absolute least important problem on my list...
and the biggest strawman of all is that a transsexual saying I AM NOT INCLUDED AS TRANSGENDER DOES NOT MEAN I DONT FULLY SUPPORT TRANSGENDERED PEOPLE... I am not gay, and i support gay rights... its like a mental block or something...
Sophie I read your point about defending the traditional gender role and I hear you.. i think there is some of that in my comments...i have chosen to blend into the binary gendered world..i like it there... i found my place...which is exactly why i don't like being called transgendered... i am not part of a group that has not fount a place there... and like i said above, i totally and completely support your rights to live outside the binary gendered world, when i give my speeches i talk about the fact that there is a large group of people of all kinds of mixed feelings about their gender, and i focus mostly on medical issues and your right to go get HRT even if you don't transition, and the safety issues of going out and avoiding violence.....
Saying that a person is transgender is like saying that a person is cisgender, it puts them in a general category but doesn't say anything particular about them. Is a cisgender person a man or a woman? Yes. Is a transgender person a crossdresser, a transsexual, or something in between them? Yes. We need to stop thinking that the term transgender says anything particular about anyone because it doesn't. If you want other people to know the particular truth about you then you will have to communicate it with some extra words. Use pantomime and sign language, if there are no words to express the real you. Just don't think that transgender does it alone. It's like saying that a person is a human being. It distinguishes us from nonhumans but not in a very meaningful way. It lumps all the disgraceful human beings with the good ones, and no one wants that to happen.
P.S. Kaitlyn, you are sweet to make allowances for my petty offenses. I appreciate it, even if I sometimes deserve a small rebuke. I think you gave me one earlier, but can't be sure. Your slyness made me chuckle. Thanks. I'm sympathetic to your point of view, but biased toward my own. No harm done, I hope.
no harm at all!!
As someone that has transitioned..the idea of cisgender/not cisgender means something different to me than to you.. i have to make certain allowances in my life for my past...or perhaps i should say, my non-cisgender past..
A successful transition for me includes an internal cisgender sense (if that makes sense?)... Gender is no longer a meaningful factor in my going forward life, except where the world forces it upon me... and calling me transgender forces it upon me!!!
as a pragmatist, i understand that i can not erase genetics, i can not erase past events or socialization..but its unneccessary for me to do so.. i am safe and secure as myself.. i can't control others, but i can influence ideas sometimes..
..to use your idea...calling me transgender is not meaningful anymore, and it causes harm to my self interests.. the reason is the unfortunate negative image of fetishists, and big burly crossdressers demanding to use the ladies room at a mall on their monthly outing...its not fair...and i find it especially appalling how many crossdressers rag on people that are fetish oriented dressers, and brag about how don't crossdress for sexual gratification..and then whine about how ts people have some kind of hierarchy...
I don't EVER want to explain to anybody why I'm TG but different than this or that TG person..i mentioned earlier before this became such a long thread...it does nothing for me to be called TG..
I can support the fair and reasonable treatment of all us, without being included as transgender myself..in fact, i have a special affinity to do so because i spent so much of my life trying desperately to be "just a crossdresser"..
That was well said in a simply way Bree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bree_K
Cd's can give those who are in transition a bad name. Cd's also can choose where and when they go some place. People that are transitioning don't have that option any more. If you don't pass than is is even harder to live your everyday life.
It can be a fight to just be you. A CD's can just goes home and change there clothes. A TS must go on to protect there mental well being weather other people accepts them or not. A TS also has to live with the bad PR that the bad CD left with people.
CD's, TS's, IS's are all different people with one goal. They just want to be accepted as humans.
Now this is more like it, and something, while I don't 100% agree with, I can support! My only question then, is why the divisiveness? There are quite a few crossdressers, fetish crossdressers, people like me that don't fit into any of the recognized categories, that would happily stand beside you and fight for those rights for you. Not because they want their own rights, but because by fighting for your rights, they will gain rights that affect them as well. It does remind me quite a bit of how some in the gay community wish to exclude the T from their own community. They feel that T in LGBT holds them back from greater acceptance in society.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bree_K
I guess the big difference is that it seems you are willing to compromise by sacrificing some to save the most oppressed, and I DO understand where your coming from with that, but I don't personally think that's the best way to do it. By compromising I think it only compartmentalizes all of us into our own little groups and makes us all weaker when it comes to those that hate us. JMHO.
Jody,
Please go back and read what I originally wrote. I never said that all cross dressers are men in pantyhose masterbating.
I did say that I refuse and that it sickens me to be listed under the same umbrellea as those that are men in pantyhose masterbating.
Concerning the bathroom issue; I personally have been blessed enough to pass very very well due to my intersexed status and have never had an altercation from bathroom use.
With that said I have a good friend who is full time TS who needs this law because she does not pass at all yet she digs deep into her soul everyday to live her true and authentic self.
Thank God Pennsylvania gives full time pre/non operative TS/IS people the opportunity to correct their gender marker on their driver's license.
Because of this she legally has a pass to use the correct bathroom .
We as the TS/IS community had to battle negative perceptions in Harrisburg with legislatures that thought we were nothing more than cross dressing men looking for legal acceptance of our fetish.
DO YOU KNOW HOW DIFFICULT IT WAS TO LIVE DOWN THAT PERCEPTION IN THE EYES OF THE STATE GOVERNMENT?!!?!?
Yet the rest of the "transgender " umbrella wants to be included in this when they have absolutely no business being included!!!!
When you go full time you literally put your life on the line each and everyday yet oddly enough their are those that are not full time that demand the same rights as a full time person has.
YOU DON'T NEED PROTECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What you do need is compassion and understanding concerning the walk of death the full time person has to walk every day to be who and what they are.
For some reason I see those that are not full time here being upset and angry that we somehow feel upset that they wish to be included in these protections.
Do you honestly feel this way?????? Why ???????
Until you put on the dress and never take it off again you need to support those that are full time by not co-opting our community.
Whether you like it or not the full time TS/IS person has little to nothing in common with you until time and actions dictact that you are actually needing to go full time.
Your behavour towards us is not only indicative of child like tantrums it also smacks of male privilege.
Now either support us or better yet let us live in peace.
Julia
Quote:
Originally Posted by JodyCD
I wonder if the words were different there would be less angst
between the differing groups. Fact is words have meaning .
Crossdressers in most cases, in this country at least, dislike the
word transvestite. The word carries negative connotations
because tranvestites are more often than not linked with
fetishists etc. Even the word transsexual carries negative
baggage especially in the straight world - think transsexual from transylvania!
Many dislike the classification GID but some find refuge in that label. Every
single label under the so call umbrella tells straight society that
we are different and should be suspect . Fighting over labels is
not going make one bit of difference to them.
There are transsexual people who can
demonstate to the world that we are good people worthy of
reconsideration, there are crossdressers who can do the same
but the opposite side of the coin exsists for every category.
Personally I hate bigotry and bigotry has it’s root in the non
acceptance and fear of people who are different which in turn
divides everyone into groups and pits one against the other!
Oh yes one more thing, Happy New Year everyone!!!!
You tell people they need compassion, yet you throw around insults at people. I've read a lot of your posts on here, and you appear to either be a troll that likes to mock those that do have a fetish (see your previous posts) or you are simply sociopathic. I don't know which, and I don't care. Stop talking to me, and I'll stop replying to you. If you dislike my point of view, hit the ignore button, and save your petty insults for someone that cares.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia_in_Pa
*Backs slowly away from thread* Seriously, sometimes I think it's pointless to say anything because some just have no grasp of certain realities...
and CDs are not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber99
I really do not know how to respond to such a selfish statement.
and CDs are not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber99
I really do not know how to respond to such a selfish statement.
I am really getting sick and tired of seeing this sort of insult. Not to give too much info, but... I do wear pantyhose, and yes I do masturbate. Not always at the same time, but like most HUMAN BEINGS I do have to release sexual tension. As I have said, it is the thought of my girl friend, or an attractive girl seeing me in my stuff, that turns me on. Does this make me a pervert or sick in the mind? Well if I do, then you're sick too because YOU wear panties, or pantyhose, and most likely masturbate while wearing them, OR not. Maybe you just go completely nude and then play with yourself. I don't know and I don't care. But I do care about your attitude towards those that DO NOT HARM YOU. It is the biggots and haters that harm you.Quote:
I did say that I refuse and that it sickens me to be listed under the same umbrellea as those that are men in pantyhose masterbating
Julia, I don't even know why you are here. You are IS, and like my GF, despite her appearance has the legal right to use the ladies room and does so. She lives her life as the woman she is. She is also for the rights of everyone She like myself thinks it should not "effing" matter what a person chooses to wear, it is the spirit of the person that should matter. Julia, your spirit is damaged somehow. Your posts here are the most hateful posts I think I have ever read here. You lump me in with the hairy panty wearers (the CDs that indeed give the whole transgendered envelope a bad name, not because of what they do, but because of the other stuff associated with them)
To quote a very famous line "...I'm a human being God D%^mit! MY LIFE HAS VALUE!!" That is the line we all should remember whether we are gay, straight, Bi-sexual, intersexed, male, female, cross dresser, Transvestite, or transsexual. We are humans when you get right down to it.
Hatred of a group of people based on skin color, religious affiliation, ethnic back round, and yes clothing style, clothing preference, or gender presentation, is WRONG. End of subject. There is nothing right about such discrimination, and when I see such discrimination from groups that are oppressed by the masses, being directed to an even more oppressed group it really does piss me as well as others off.
I do not think myself better than someone going through full transition. I simply go by a different path. I could be said am very much like Andrej Pejic, except for the lack of huge sums of money, and growing fame. He is something that people should strive for.
Yes I can take off my clothing styles, and go drab......but I don't like it one bit. When I go out for dinner or events I don't want to wear a suit with slacks, or a (yeuch) tuxedo. I would much rather wear my Chenongasm, or the LBD my GF found me, or the fishtail gown I recently got. Not have to entirely pass as a female....MUCH like the aforementioned super model. The only reason I wear the prescribed male garment is so I don't have to deal with certain people getting offended. That really is it. As I said, I do not have, or exercise male privilege. Oh, and on that note....you all are not about to tell me that there is no "female privilege"? If, like a male, she stays within those boundaries set by society, she has MUCH privilege, but if she steps outside of those boundaries, (like if a male chooses to do something not so masculine), then she loses that privilege (just like a male would).
Kaitlyn, your last comments make about as much sense as anything that has been said here. Bottom line, you are a woman. Period. Through a series of decisions and actions, you have taken ownership of that word. No one can take that from you, and I don't think anyone is trying to force you under the proverbial umbrella.
However, only you know the truth as to how often you find yourself having to explain the past, when transsexual was part of your identity, or even to go back far enough when you thought crossdresser was an apt description. Like you said, I hope you never again have to go down that road. But this is part of my point and I'll inject myself into the example. If I were to stand where you are right now and also be able to take ownership of the word "woman" by way of my actions (rather than by way of what is in my heart), I would have every expectation that I'd be explaining the trans on a rather frequent basis. I might reject being under the umbrella at that point from a personal POV by virtue of being a woman but for purposes of educating the Muggles who have zero clue what species of trans I might be, that umbrella becomes pretty helpful.
This whole thing is really stupid. We have labels that are well rooted in many areas of our lives. Some reject all of them outright. Others want to divorce themselves from the labels and preach segregation in our community. I find myself in this position of defense largely because I'm in that middle path area.
Questions are asked as to where we draw the line. Sandra, you said it yourself as follows when it comes to who in the community is seeking rights...
"The challenge regarding the umbrella term is when it comes to spending time on serious legislation and social awareness programs to improve the lives of those who wish to live in the gender they see themselves as whether that be pre-op, post-op, whatever! Is an openly identified Male that enjoys wearing clothes for whatever reason obligated to the same protections as someone with a medical condition that is trying to live their life comfortably in an opposite gender role. If the answer is yes, where do we draw the line? See now why the umbrella term only serves to confuse things?"
The issue surrounding the potential loss of job for the bra-wearing male is a real one...for him. And yes, it has ramifications for our community as a whole, for better or for worse. You may feel better about your place in the world by distancing yourself from such things but really, do you think the issues are going to go away if you divorce yourself from them? You may very well be impacted regardless of your personal position. And I gather that because you see his issue as being just a game, you are the last one who will be lining up in his defense. So regardless of any perceived frivolity with his issue, he's going to have to do it for himself and the resulting shock waves may very well rock your world. I'd think it would be more beneficial to stand with him rather than against him, or to dismiss him.
And Sandra, I don't see a need to dissect your points any further in order to make mine with clarity. Your words speak for themselves including those made in the past, before November when you apparently came out. You speak words of exclusion while acknowledging similarities at the same time which is really confusing. People will come to their own conclusions about whether the things you state are bigoted in their eyes, or if that gem of a final comment was in fact as condescending as they come. But I would say that you have managed to elevate yourself to a supposed higher ground which is what comes through in your words. This certainly didn't take long and my only parting advice would be to remember your roots.
Bottom line, Pythos really says it best, that the issues faced IRL and rights sought by others along the gender spectrum are basic human rights. Those who are locked away in the closet are not likely to demand rights, nor seek changes when it comes to rights, and perhaps not even venture out any further when the day comes that rights and/or acceptance for our community become the new normal. Some behavior behind closed doors really isn't part of our big picture unless it unfortunately garners media attention. By putting so much stock into such an extreme, there are many of us who get stepped on in the process who would be proud ambassadors, supporters and champions for our community. Those of us who perhaps have much more in common with those who would exclude us than they'd like to admit.
One last comment on a side issue that cropped up. Bree, you also talk about drawing lines...
"But we're kinda stuck with mens/womens bathrooms right now, and getting transexuals the right to use the bathroom of their gender is far more likely if we're not also fighting for crossdressing men to use women's bathrooms. If crossdressers can use the bathroom they please, then where do you draw the line? Why let some men use the women's bathroom and not other men? And frankly, if a crossdressing male identifies as a MAN, what's the problem with using the MENS room?"
How can anyone draw that line given the fact that no stranger really knows for sure where any of us would stand on the TG continuum if we are in fact read as being trans. Maybe the crossdressing man identifies as a woman when dressed. He sure as heck is presenting as one, as best he can. So the litmus test needs to be how he identifies? If that were the case, then I'd be using the women's room daily, no matter how I was presenting. Now that might get me into some hot water! So when presenting as female, would I be lumped in with the crossdressing man and be forced to use the men's room? What about the non-op full time transsexual? Which would she use?
Jody,
Your refusal to acknowlege your mistake in quoting me condemes you and your name calling to nothing more than throwing feces at a wall hoping some of it sticks.
Sadly your ranting paints you in a light best reserved for the dark and seamy underbelly of human reaction.
Your lack of command of the english language dictates that people treat you as you treat yourself.
Sadly I had to be the one rolling up the proverbial welcome mat and casting you into the sea of hyperbole.
ἀνδρῶν γὰρ ἐπιφανῶν πᾶσα γῆ τάφος in my Greek ancestors language. Translated it says;
For illustrious men have the whole earth for their tomb.
Need I say more?
Good day to you.
Julia
Quote:
Originally Posted by JodyCD
Sara, thnx!! well said..
I paid a price for my transition, i get certain benefits..
You pay a price for your non transition..you get certain benefits
they are different prices...good summary?
bathrooms really are a flash point..if you choose to transition, you don't have to worry about it...and i've said before, its arguable whether i can support a man's right to use a woman's bathroom...a large majority of gg's don't want you there...what are their "rights"?..
are you a woman? again...i can't say for you..but that's part of your price.. in fact, i think it shines a light on a big difference...if not transitioned you are required to deal with all the crap..you have to explain yourself, why do you have male ID? sorry this bathroom is women only, your stockings are not dress code at work...etcetc...and because of your choice, your internal understanding of yourself as a woman is not reflected back at you, and because of my choice, it is.. and for both of us, we both well know it pretty much impacts every little thing , every single day..
and yes i actually have divorced myself from the issues we are talking about here.
I have done it by planning well, working my ass off, and slowly and methodically winning over my friends and family to my cause
and every time i have to explain the difference between crossdressers, and transgenderists and gender queers and drag queens.,
i lose what i've gained...
and at the same time i am supportive of the fight to gain all possible freedom of gender expression of all types... and my actions speak loudly...including going to my daughters high school and outing myself to her class and to the gay/straight alliance..
People claim to want to fight for my rights..well then fight for my right to be what i want...which is a woman..not transgendered..a woman... fight for that...i'm fighting for you
I think that's an excellent summary. But, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, I don't think any of us should have to pay a price to be who we are. It should be a given in our society that our life is our life, and others shouldn't have the right to question it. Really this entire debate here is about how to accomplish that, is it not? Whether it's better to fight individually, or whether one subgroup of us hurts the others chances to gain rights. I don't really think the question is whether or not TS, or CD's pay a price for their actions. We all know that, and I doubt anybody here feels one group deserves rights and the other doesn't. (Insults from both sides notwithstanding) The argument seems to me, to be more of how to gain them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
One thing though, about the losing something every time you have to explain the differences to someone, (and I do empathize and understand why you'd feel that way) but, educating the people that don't understand any of us, is probably the single most important thing for all of us to do to gain the rights we all seek across the board. A lot of the hate in the world that is directed at all transgendered is that people don't understand us. People naturally dislike anything they don't understand. While certainly none of us will ever be able to convince and educate every single person they come across, but if even just a few of them get it, then it's a small victory, and those small victories add up.
I'm going to try to say this delicately. Cisgender people don't want to be lumped with transgender people. More to the point, cisgender people don't want to be lumped with crossdressers and transsexuals, the transpeople who most want to be associated with them. If you are a TS woman, try getting into the FAB section on this site, if you need proof. TS men are likewise blocked from joining the MAB section, I think.
I support transgender and cisgender differentiation, but also recognize that some trans populations are closer cohorts with cispeople than with some transpeople. For example, ciswomen and transwomen are closer cohorts than transwomen and crossdressers. However, transwomen will not be able to nurture this close association for their maximum benefit by denying their trans status. Cisgender people will not forfeit their special status without a fight that will never end.
I don't think anyone thinks of themselves in general terms most of the time, even though general terms apply to us. We think of ourselves in the most personal terms that are comfortable to us. I think it is wholly appropriate for transwomen to think of themselves simply as women since woman is a generic term that includes ciswomen and transwomen. If being a woman is more important to you than being a transwoman (although you are both) then there is nothing wrong with expressing this preference in the way you think about yourself. Transwomen who don't differentiate themselves from ciswomen at any level of meaning, however, are being dishonest and are not likely to find acceptance of this point of view among many of the cohorts they value most.
These topics should be thought about carefully but not constantly. Gender algebra is exhausting. Once you have solved your issues then stick to your final answer, and put the proof away in a drawer. Drag it out again if memory fails or someone important calls your answer into question. In other words, there is no need to justify yourself all of the time to everyone. Pick your battles wisely.
Yes it would be great if everyone wasn't judged and everyone could just be who they are, but that just isn't how this world works. Change comes a little at a time, because people don't like change. If we could just change the whole of society and the world to be more accepting in one swoop, we would have given blacks and women and gays and transexuals and crossdressers and everyone else equal rights and acceptance long ago.
To say that we need equal rights and acceptance for everyone right now is great in theory... but it's naive to believe it can be accomplished quickly and all at once. If you have some genius idea that will change the world, PLEASE, share that with the people out there putting their lives at stake, fighting for your rights... so they don't waste their time.
Believe me, I'm aware it's a long hard and bloody road, and I truly wish I had that magical answer. In the meantime, I do everything I can, and everything I can think to do to help where I can. After all, that's all anyone can do. If I had my way, I'd force acceptance down people's throats, but alas I can't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bree_K
I don't think anybody believes it can be done overnight, and if they do that would be naive, and yes we should target the fight to where it needs to be fought the most, and where it is most likely to be won. Picking your battles is very important to the big picture. I just don't think it's a great idea to completely ignore everyone else's struggle because they are different, and don't share your exact needs. Nor, should their struggle be minimized because it's different. For example I don't understand what it's like to be a fetish crossdresser, but that doesn't mean their needs are any less important than my own. They are just simply different.