Lying

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

The part about spending what they want, doing what they want, and pushing agreed-on boundaries could be said about pretty much any husband and his hobby, though, right? Golfing, hunting, fishing, shooting...

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Logically, it should be the same, but I think that CDing has a special status because of the persistant myths and the reduced ability to discuss it outside the couple. The SO can talk to her friends about hubby's fishing obsession, but cannot so easily complain about his CDing obsession. That eliminates an emotional safety valve and can allow pressure to build up to an intolerable level.

That's one reason that it is so important to get SOs involved in something like FAB or a face-to-face group. Having others to discuss the issues with helps everyone to see things more realistically, particularly when the others have had similar experiences and managed to create healthier relationships from them.

Being single and not having to put up with some disapproving GG is so nice :D

I too lied to my future wife by not telling her about being TG. We dated for 5 years, and on the advice from my Dad, I never told her about it. We both are baffled and my wife angry about my Dad telling me to not be truthful to her. I looked up to my Dad and I trusted him. He must have had a good reason. He was a great guy and very loving and touched a lot of people's lives. Now he did not know we would get married about 3 years after he told me not to tell but it never came up again. He sent me to a therapist which I really wasn't keen on but we really never talked about it again. After 5 years of marriage, my wife found out. There was anger, and confusion. We continued for 10 more years with me hiding it again after I said I stopped. So I guess I was lying again. She was always an angry person and progressively less and less sexual. She dressed frumpily and got a little heavy but not too bad. After we got divorced this past April, now she is Miss sex and fitness girl and has gotten tattoos and piercings. She said because of my non advances toward her, she got less sexual. I guess I can see that but it's hard to want to have sex with an angry and negative person. I was always afraid to ask or start something. Especially after she found out. I had problems with ED too which I think stemmed from her anger.

Now I am free and although a little lonely, I don't have to lie to anyone. I may not tell people things, but if asked straight out, I would probably tell them about me. No one has asked though even though my appearance is more and more feminine lately. Single life is peaceful though. I believe I am happier because I am not living a lie.

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Originally Posted by GingerLeigh

Saying something to "THE ONE" about your crossdressing before you commit to marriage looks good on paper, but I'm willing to bet it ends in disaster most of the time. Sure there will be that 0-5% that will be accepting, if you're lucky enough to find her but I bet most will push you away like you've got leprosy and they are likely to warn others of your "perversion"...

The security of my marriage/relationship, the opinions of my children and their peers mean more to me than a clear conscience...

...Lying is bad if it is self serving and malicious. My lie is neither.
Ginger

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Reading your post, Ginger, kind of makes me think two things:

1) I'm really not THAT special... it's definitely going to be more than 5% of GGs entering a serious relationship and having that told to them who end up okay with it! At the very least, if a potential SO cannot handle the disclosure and breaks up with you, it's easier to deal with sooner than later. Occasionally at my work, people will bring in "abandoned baby wildlife" - species like cottontail rabbits and fawns where the mother will abandon them if they have any scent on them, and there's pretty much no way for humans to keep them alive due to how they need their mother to help them purge toxins as they nurse. (Thankfully it hasn't happened yet this spring so I haven't had to see it yet.) But when those baby animals get brought in - you know they're dead, they just haven't gotten round to it yet. If a potential partner is so intolerant of cross dressing that they would rather give up an otherwise wonderful relationship because they can't wrap their heads around it? That relationship is like a baby fawn some well-meaning little kid has gone and petted.

2) If a lie keeps people from being able to make important decisions affecting their lives for themselves, that lie isn't for them; it's for the person lying. Like I said before, children is a bit of a sticky issue as you really don't get to choose your children, just make them. But what if your wife had secretly converted to some fringe cult religion, and when you weren't around she was spending time with other members discussing topics she knew you may well find vaguely creepy? Hiding receipts, using cash far more frequently to be able to keep you from figuring out this secret part of your life? Would you rather know, or have her keep hiding this part of her from you?

If you lie, you have to remember what you told to whom; if you don't, you don't.
Q.E.D.

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Originally Posted by Babeba

Reading your post, Ginger, kind of makes me think two things:

1) I'm really not THAT special... it's definitely going to be more than 5% of GGs entering a serious relationship and having that told to them who end up okay with it! At the very least, if a potential SO cannot handle the disclosure and breaks up with you, it's easier to deal with sooner than later. Occasionally at my work, people will bring in "abandoned baby wildlife" - species like cottontail rabbits and fawns where the mother will abandon them if they have any scent on them, and there's pretty much no way for humans to keep them alive due to how they need their mother to help them purge toxins as they nurse. (Thankfully it hasn't happened yet this spring so I haven't had to see it yet.) But when those baby animals get brought in - you know they're dead, they just haven't gotten round to it yet. If a potential partner is so intolerant of cross dressing that they would rather give up an otherwise wonderful relationship because they can't wrap their heads around it? That relationship is like a baby fawn some well-meaning little kid has gone and petted.

2) If a lie keeps people from being able to make important decisions affecting their lives for themselves, that lie isn't for them; it's for the person lying. Like I said before, children is a bit of a sticky issue as you really don't get to choose your children, just make them. But what if your wife had secretly converted to some fringe cult religion, and when you weren't around she was spending time with other members discussing topics she knew you may well find vaguely creepy? Hiding receipts, using cash far more frequently to be able to keep you from figuring out this secret part of your life? Would you rather know, or have her keep hiding this part of her from you?

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Not sure what to make of the whole baby rabbit/fawn thing, as for If a lie keeps people from being able to make important decisions affecting their lives for themselves, that lie isn't for them; it's for the person lying That's true enough, got me there. At that time (while dating) I never considered my crossdressing to be a real problem. Just something I did/not was and I thought of it as more of a fetish. I found out later how wrong I was. Joining some creepy cult thing is more serious than my CDing. The harm to the family unit could be much more devastating (think Jonestown) than my secretly prancing around in a petticoat and thigh-highs. A secret religious cult thing is more comparable to a secret heroin addiction or compulsive gambling.

Ginger

After reading 6 pages of this thread, you all are all over the place with this topic.

Here is the plain and simple truth. If you are planning on marrying the girl or boy of your dreams and you crossdress, you need to tell your future spouse right now.

If your crossdressing started after you were married, you need to stop and tell your spouse right now before things get way out of control.

Communication with your spouse is of the utmost importance in a marriage.

gignerli,

I would like you to find and post these laws of which you speak.

Also the individual killed, did they get a bit too far with the person he was fooling? This is in no way a justification, the killer should be offed in my book, just an extreme act of cowardice. But if the victim was leading the guy on (who was no doubt horney), the victim was playing with a loaded gun pointed at his head.

There are Laws in France that prohibit women from wearing pants. It is also ignored as the stupid law it is.

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Originally Posted by Pythos

gignerli,

I would like you to find and post these laws of which you speak.

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There aren't any in Colorado. Maybe in Kentenneeseeevania

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Also the individual killed, did they get a bit too far with the person he was fooling? This is in no way a justification, the killer should be offed in my book, just an extreme act of cowardice. But if the victim was leading the guy on (who was no doubt horney), the victim was playing with a loaded gun pointed at his head.

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I think they were referring to Angie Zapata, you can run a search here for Zapata and find posts from 2009

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Originally Posted by shesadvl

its as bad being married and come home and finding your husband in bed with another man!!!!! or another woman!!!!! vice versa.....they both/all have the same results....& effect.:

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I have to disagree with that. Finding my spouse in bed with someone else, I am encouraged by everyone to divorce the scum. Finding out my husband wants to be a woman and has been living like one when I am not at home, I am expected to be supportive and understanding. Then it seems no matter how much I accept and am willing to live with, it's never enough.

In regards to all these comments on why is it more than just clothes and makeup?

One of the questions that we SO first ask is does that mean you want to beome woman and you all say no. Since we weren't told about the CD, how do we know if you swearing that's all it is and your intention is to remain male is the truth? Especially when so many go into the pink fog as soon as it's out in the open and we try to be accepting - you all go off the deep end of happiness while we no longer know what is true and what is false in our relationship. Then when we are told you do want to become woman, it's the same excuse as to why you didn't tell us - you were trying not to hurt us; you didn't know; you thought it would go away. I understand the majority of CDs are not TG, but it does happen and for most wives our knowledge is limited and we have had no education on this topic because we didn't know we needed to. I could have understood my spouse being gay easier than I could the CD and TG.

The attitude that if I don't know I won't get hurt by it making it ok is really annoying. I have experienced it enough in life and seen it in enough relationships to know that it really is code for you don't want to have to deal with it and not telling me makes your life easier. A justification to lie.

In response to why the SO has to beat up on the new person who says I just told my wife and she didn't take it well is because they don't seem to understand the first answer is going to be in most cases your wife is angry, hurt, confused, and lost because you lied to her about a fundamental part of you who are and she has no idea what it means and is now re-evaluating her whole life with you.

The original poster talks about someone being in la la land. While I actually agree with alot of things stated and I understood the original post to equally make fun of both sexes' expectations, the poster wants to live in denial and tell others how wrong they are to feel the way they do and wants them to accept that. The thread will go on, but it's a fantasy to think its going to change the feeling that spouses have been lied to. Strictly speaking it's deception and not a lie simply because we never thought to ask you, "Oh by the way, are you a cross-dresser?" It doesn't matter what you want to call it, the bottom line is we have built a life with someone we thought we knew, that now we discover they have been hiding something major about themselves from us, and (right or wrong) it's a matter that affects our lives, how we see ourselves and our relationship, and what we had expected of our future together.

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Originally Posted by Jorja

After reading 6 pages of this thread, you all are all over the place with this topic.

Here is the plain and simple truth. If you are planning on marrying the girl or boy of your dreams and you crossdress, you need to tell your future spouse right now.

If your crossdressing started after you were married, you need to stop and tell your spouse right now before things get way out of control.

Communication with your spouse is of the utmost importance in a marriage.

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well said Jorja, you get it now we need a few others to get it...lol :battingeyelashes:

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Originally Posted by lizlizzie

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Originally Posted by shesadvl :-its as bad being married and come home and finding your husband in bed with another man!!!!! or another woman!!!!! vice versa.....they both/all have the same results....& effect.

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I have to disagree with that. Finding my spouse in bed with someone else, I am encouraged by everyone to divorce the scum. Finding out my husband wants to be a woman and has been living like one when I am not at home, I am expected to be supportive and understanding. Then it seems no matter how much I accept and am willing to live with, it's never enough.

In regards to all these comments on why is it more than just clothes and makeup?

One of the questions that we SO first ask is does that mean you want to beome woman and you all say no. Since we weren't told about the CD, how do we know if you swearing that's all it is and your intention is to remain male is the truth? Especially when so many go into the pink fog as soon as it's out in the open and we try to be accepting - you all go off the deep end of happiness while we no longer know what is true and what is false in our relationship. Then when we are told you do want to become woman, it's the same excuse as to why you didn't tell us - you were trying not to hurt us; you didn't know; you thought it would go away. I understand the majority of CDs are not TG, but it does happen and for most wives our knowledge is limited and we have had no education on this topic because we didn't know we needed to. I could have understood my spouse being gay easier than I could the CD and TG.

The attitude that if I don't know I won't get hurt by it making it ok is really annoying. I have experienced it enough in life and seen it in enough relationships to know that it really is code for you don't want to have to deal with it and not telling me makes your life easier. A justification to lie.

In response to why the SO has to beat up on the new person who says I just told my wife and she didn't take it well is because they don't seem to understand the first answer is going to be in most cases your wife is angry, hurt, confused, and lost because you lied to her about a fundamental part of you who are and she has no idea what it means and is now re-evaluating her whole life with you.

The original poster talks about someone being in la la land. While I actually agree with alot of things stated and I understood the original post to equally make fun of both sexes' expectations, the poster wants to live in denial and tell others how wrong they are to feel the way they do and wants them to accept that. The thread will go on, but it's a fantasy to think its going to change the feeling that spouses have been lied to. Strictly speaking it's deception and not a lie simply because we never thought to ask you, "Oh by the way, are you a cross-dresser?" It doesn't matter what you want to call it, the bottom line is we have built a life with someone we thought we knew, that now we discover they have been hiding something major about themselves from us, and (right or wrong) it's a matter that affects our lives, how we see ourselves and our relationship, and what we had expected of our future together.

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I also agree with what you have posted as in the experience you have/had with your SO, thankyou for sharing......

I think you may have miss understood what i was referring to there....
I was referring to a wife trying to get her head around all this,as it would be,.. to be coming home,.. finding your husband in bed with another man, (had a girlfriend have that happen to her) & (a male friend come home and find his wife in bed with another woman)

This not only affects emotions and relationships, does not matter if you are not a transgendered just a normal couple with no transgendered issues,......
as to the lying about crossdressing or TS.
The ramifications as follows:-

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that CDing/TS:- is dropped on the wife after say 10/15 years of marriage.... how the he*l.... do you think a wife is supposed to get her head around all this including the fact that the husband is transgendered either dresses, and goes all out in all directions....

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as you also mentioned in your post.....

cheers Irene shesadvl yup thats me..... :battingeyelashes:

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Originally Posted by Pythos

gignerli,

I would like you to find and post these laws of which you speak.
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hiya Pythos:hugs:

I also had difficulty with the "clarity" of the information in gingerli post.
Here is what I believe is actually going on in Colorado...based upon my facts...

Here are the only two recent Colorado legal “TG” incidents I am aware of...
One was a TG murdered by a guy that found out “later” that Angie Zapata was actually a male. (in 2008) The documentary movie is being released this month. He got life + 60 years.

The other TG related case was in Feb this year. Two dead bodies were found in a basement of a house where some restaurant owner and a homeless CD were staying. They are still looking for both of them. The CD is the prime suspect in the murders. (See links to both stories below)

Sentenced to Life + 60 years for July 2008 murder of TG Angie Zapata
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_12330165?source=pkg

Denver police searching for crossdressing suspect ("Ms. Puppy") in Feb 2011 murder
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_17432737

I am not an attorney but I should be with all of the legal battles I have done pro-se’, lol. I also have a few good friends who are attorneys here in Denver. None of us are aware of the recent murder that was mentioned, or any Colorado city ordinances that were referenced.

Sure, we still ride horses instead of driving those automotive contraptions you flatlanders use in the East, but we actually do have a few laws relevant to transgender issues out here in the Wild Wild West, lol.

Colorado Non-Discrimination Law
Gender identity protected? Yes
Sexual orientation protected? Yes
As of August 3, 2007, Colorado’s non-discrimination law was amended to apply to "sexual orientation”, which is defined as “a person’s orientation toward heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, or transgender status or an employer’s perception thereof.” Colorado Revised Statutes 24-34-401, 24-34-402.

Colorado Hate Crimes Law
Gender identity protected? Yes
Sexual orientation protected? Yes
“Transgender status” is included in the definition of sexual orientation and is covered in the state’s bias-motivated crimes law. COLO. REV. STAT. § 18-9-121

Colorado Sodomy Law
The Colorado sodomy law was repealed in 1972.


GLBT Legislative Tracker (tracks Colorado GLBT related legislation Bills, etc.)
http://www.denvergov.org/Portals/354...%20Session.pdf

If anyone is interested in viewing the LGBT laws in your own state...
Here is a search engine for U.S. LGBT laws indexed by state:
http://www.hrc.org/laws_and_elections/state.asp

There, all better...

well,,a little better anyway...:)

:love:

I didnt tell my last wife untill we were together about 10 years& I feel It contibuted to it not woking out.This time around I was honest right from the start.Although it has bin the end of things on other ocassions when I was honest.

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Originally Posted by lizlizzie

Finding out my husband wants to be a woman and has been living like one when I am not at home, I am expected to be supportive and understanding.

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Let me be the exception then: It's your life. If a crossdressing husband isn't something you want in your life, you should leave. You can be a lot more supportive and understanding from a distance than you can when you're sitting there thinking, "This is not what I wanted in my life."

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I understand the majority of CDs are not TG, but it does happen and for most wives our knowledge is limited and we have had no education on this topic because we didn't know we needed to. I could have understood my spouse being gay easier than I could the CD and TG.

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I'm sorry you had to go through that.

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In response to why the SO has to beat up on the new person who says I just told my wife and she didn't take it well is because they don't seem to understand the first answer is going to be in most cases your wife is angry, hurt, confused, and lost because you lied to her about a fundamental part of you who are and she has no idea what it means and is now re-evaluating her whole life with you.

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I believe that the part I've underlined there is the key worry, and it's a legitimate worry. As you noted, a certain percentage of CDs eventually decide that they are really TS, and they don't always know immediately and won't always admit it if they suspect. How is the wife to know what's going to happen? She doesn't. It would be much easier for her to say, "Well, you lied, and I can't live with a liar, so goodbye," than to stick around and try to deal with being married to someone who is TG. That's why I say it is not the lying itself that is the issue. Marriage is a process of getting to know another person, and couples deal with new revelations all the time. It's the content of this revelation that is the real issue.

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The original poster talks about someone being in la la land.

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I know I didn't use the words "la la land," so I guess that's you interpretation of something else I said. I'm not sure what I said that could have been taken that way. Could you point me to it?

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the poster wants to live in denial and tell others how wrong they are to feel the way they do and wants them to accept that.

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No, I never said that SOs are wrong to feel the way they do. I've said two things: 1) I don't think the lying is the real issue for SOs; and 2) people come here for support, and we shouldn't beat them up over having lied to their spouses. Our goal should be to help them move forward.

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Strictly speaking it's deception and not a lie simply because we never thought to ask you, "Oh by the way, are you a cross-dresser?"

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As the OP, let me say again that I am not in the "it's not lying" camp. Calling it "deception" doesn't help as you point out, and I'm sure that most crossdressers do end up lying at some point in order to cover their activity. I know there were at least a couple of times when I had to tell a bald faced lie or be busted.

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It doesn't matter what you want to call it, the bottom line is we have built a life with someone we thought we knew, that now we discover they have been hiding something major about themselves from us, and (right or wrong) it's a matter that affects our lives, how we see ourselves and our relationship, and what we had expected of our future together.

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I think the above paragraph makes the point very well that the emphasis in the reaction isn't "Oh my god, you lied!" It's "Oh my god, what does this mean, and what's going to happen now?" If the SO gets stuck on "you lied," I think it's a signal that she's not wanting to confront the latter issues. What she's doing, imo, is mourning the years she "wasted" with someone she knows in her heart she can't live with anymore. The relationship is dead in her heart, but she hasn't quite accepted it yet. She's in the second stage of grief: Anger. Eventually, she will reach the point of acceptance, and it will be over. In the meantime, there's going to be anger, there's going to be bargaining, and there's going to be depression.

For crossdressers, I think it's important to take a clear-eyed view of how your SO is reacting, and what the likely outcome is going to be. If she says something like, "Okay, you shouldn't have lied, but let's work through this," then you have a really good chance of staying together. If she keeps going on about how you lied and betrayed her, then it's probably not going to end well. Be prepared. You don't have to accept whatever moral condemnation she wants to heap on you, but don't try to shift the blame to her either.

For SOs, I think it's important to understand that there is no moral obligation to stay with a husband who crossdresses. Good manners dictates that people shouldn't point and laugh at crossdressers when they see them in public. Morality demands that crossdressers have the right to dress and go out in public without being harrassed or harmed in any way. But there is no moral commandment saying that an SO has to find her crossdressing husband romantically attractive. So don't beat yourself up saying that you "ought" to be able to accept him as he is. There's no point in trying to rationalize your feelings: You feel what you feel, and if you don't feel it, you don't feel it. It's pointless for the two of you to go through however many years of torture while you try to make yourself feel something you can't.

Both should try to have some sympathy and understanding for what the other is going through, if for no other reason than it takes the edge off of your anger and makes you feel a whole lot better about life. It also makes the divorce process a whole lot smoother.

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Originally Posted by shesadvl

well said Jorja, you get it now we need a few others to get it...lol :battingeyelashes:

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I hate to admit it but I had to learn the hard way many years ago. I lost one of the most beautiful people, inside and out, one could ever imagine. All because I was stupid and did not tell the truth early on in the relationship. :(

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Originally Posted by Jorja

I hate to admit it but I had to learn the hard way many years ago. I lost one of the most beautiful people, inside and out, one could ever imagine. All because I was stupid and did not tell the truth early on in the relationship. :(

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hard lessons to learn jorja we know this thanx for sharing that....:love:

Sophie:

I think you missed the point, in your anxiousness to defend your position. Your question, as I understood it, was why do we jump on the new person who is upset because their wife reacted negatively and that the spouses' first comments are always to jump on the person about lying. I answered the question. Not agreeing with my answer doesn't change the reason why that is our first response. I can also add that it doesn't help that in response to our reaction being you have lied to me all these years, the CD's response is to justify why they lied. If you can lie about this, what else in our marriage is a lie and are you now telling us the complete truth or eeking it out in pieces so you can decide how much to tell us? This is what goes through every spouse's mind. Unless the lying and justification stop, the relationship cannot heal. Whether you like it or not, lying is the first issue and to move forward trust has to be regained. The new person needs to understand that when they are coming in here saying how do I save my marriage.

The majority of us didn't want this in our life. Those who stay realize that it's the person they love and not the manner of dress. You denigrate the fact that we try to learn, to understand, and to accept and your answer is we should just bail on day one. You have had how many years to examine your feelings, your thoughts, your needs, and what this means. You have had the opportunity to talk to others in the same situation. Yet, allowing us enough time to do the same thing -seems unfathomable to you. The first time you dressed, was it trying on a pair of panties or was it full regalia? Give us the same courtesy you gave yourself - time to learn and understand and adjust, which many of us are willing to.

And yes, the person we knew, the relatonship as we knew it, just died. We deserve the time to grieve. For some they come to a new understanding about the world and about themselves. For others they learn and make the decision to leave. How many times and how many years did you spend coming to terms with who you are and in that process purging and starting over? Shouldn't we have the same consideration of time to figure out what this means to us? (And while we are doing this, it doesn't help that the average CD suddenly feels free now that the wife knows and goes wild with makeup, clothes, shaving, and splurging on the things they want.)

I have seen the posts over the past 2 years. Many CDs have more female clothes than their wives. If you are an average middle class family with children, do you know how many of us have to budget to afford a nice wardrobe? And while we raise the children, do the housework, hold down full time jobs and suddenly learn that our spouse is someone we didn't know, we still have to put one foot in front of the other and keep things going. Now we have to figure in the budget your wardrobe. I see some of these posts of men having whole closets full of female clothing and then complaining that their wives don't dress up for them anymore or aren't skinny anymore. Have a few kids, go through hormonal changes and grab something to eat in between soccer games, grocery shopping, putting meals on the table, running a house, and parent teacher conferences and see how much time you have to spend on yourself. If a new person really wants to see their marriage survive, they would be better off listening to what spouses have to say instead of believing in your fantasy world. And if in the process it hurts their feelings and they slow down, then maybe their marriage will survive because their wives will have a chance to catch up and breathe. A decision that affects your life the way divorce does should not be made based on an initial reaction, which seems to be what you advocate. I didn't make the decision to get married after one conversation, why should I make the decision to end it without having time to give it the same amount of consideration?

In regards to your comments about me personally, you don't know me. Yes, I reacted badly initially. What do you expect of a wife who finds a drawer full of women's clothes hidden by her husband? But I am not a quitter and believe love is more than just the outside. I stood by my spouse, but I could find very limited resources to help me understand. It took me 6 months to find the information and understanding I needed. I chose to accper her the way she was, in my life and in my bed. If I followed your theory, I would have walked out and missed an opportunity to grow and learn.

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

That's why I say it is not the lying itself that is the issue. Marriage is a process of getting to know another person, and couples deal with new revelations all the time. It's the content of this revelation that is the real issue.

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I think the above paragraph makes the point very well that the emphasis in the reaction isn't "Oh my god, you lied!" It's "Oh my god, what does this mean, and what's going to happen now?" If the SO gets stuck on "you lied," I think it's a signal that she's not wanting to confront the latter issues. What she's doing, imo, is mourning the years she "wasted" with someone she knows in her heart she can't live with anymore. The relationship is dead in her heart, but she hasn't quite accepted it yet. She's in the second stage of grief: Anger. Eventually, she will reach the point of acceptance, and it will be over. In the meantime, there's going to be anger, there's going to be bargaining, and there's going to be depression.

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Your points may be valid for some relationships, certainly they apply in your own. You did say your wife understood why you didn't tell her about the CDing for so long and the lying was not an issue for her.

But although it might be convenient or tidy to apply your experience as being a general rule, it just isn't realistic. There are marriages where the lie is a far worse transgression than the act of CDing, plus there are too many factors that influence this to support your theory that it is the fear or dislike of the CDing that is worse than the lies: what level of CDing is applicable by the time the wife finds out? Is the husband just beginning his expression, or has he been leading the equivalent of a double life? Are there sexual issues in the marriage? Have there been affairs? Are there codependent issues in the marriage? How well does the couple communicate and compromise on other issues? How long has it been since the wife felt something was amiss but she couldn't put her finger on it? What stories has she woven in her mind over any distance she might have perceived in her husband? What is her level of self-esteem as the result of this or other issues? Has the couple built up resentments over other issues over the years that are now ready to explode? In short, what is the general level of emotional trust and emotional intimacy in the marriage?

So yes, I can see a much stronger argument for a wife feeling that the lies are the greatest betrayal of all. Also, when people lie, they do give the impression they care far more about the issue that the lie protects than the person they are lying to.

Well, the marriage vow is "To have and to hold, for better or worse, through sickness and health". I see nothing, not one damned thing about dumping FOR ANY REASON, yes not even infidelity. Though personally I think many cheaters are scum, and I have lost respect for one member of my family that cheated on her husband...with his best freind, I do think there should be a caveat about cheating in those vows, but presently there is none.

But then again, this day and age those vows aren't worth the paper they are written on.

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Originally Posted by Pythos

Well, the marriage vow is "To have and to hold, for better or worse, through sickness and health". I see nothing, not one damned thing about dumping FOR ANY REASON, yes not even infidelity. Though personally I think many cheaters are scum, and I have lost respect for one member of my family that cheated on her husband...with his best freind, I do think there should be a caveat about cheating in those vows, but presently there is none.

But then again, this day and age those vows aren't worth the paper they are written on.

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A couple can always write their own vows. But, yes many people forget their vows the second after their said. I do of course see many reasons why people need to retain that ability to divorce though. People should be together because they WANT to be together not, because they are forced to be together. Vows aside, nobody should spend their life unhappy even if they made the mistakes that led to the unhappiness.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

But although it might be convenient or tidy to apply your experience as being a general rule, it just isn't realistic.

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I'm not the only one who has reported that their SO didn't get upset about the lying. I'm not just generalizing based on my experience with my wife, but also from what I've seen here. So far, all the responses from the SOs I've seen in this discussion have emphasized the negative consequences that crossdressing has on the SO. You've talked to a lot more SOs on here than I have, though. How many of them report that they are fine with the crossdressing, but are just upset that he felt he needed to lie about it? Doesn't being upset about the crossdressing itself tend to go hand-in-hand with being upset that he lied?

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there are too many factors that influence this to support your theory that it is the fear or dislike of the CDing that is worse than the lies: what level of CDing is applicable by the time the wife finds out? Is the husband just beginning his expression, or has he been leading the equivalent of a double life? Are there sexual issues in the marriage? Have there been affairs? Are there codependent issues in the marriage? How well does the couple communicate and compromise on other issues? How long has it been since the wife felt something was amiss but she couldn't put her finger on it? What stories has she woven in her mind over any distance she might have perceived in her husband? What is her level of self-esteem as the result of this or other issues? Has the couple built up resentments over other issues over the years that are now ready to explode? In short, what is the general level of emotional trust and emotional intimacy in the marriage?

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It's absolutely true that if the CDing fits into a more general pattern of lying, then the trust issues are going to be a critical factor, completely aside from her view of the crossdressing itself. I agree with you that the extent to which it could be viewed as a double life is important. Some CDs here have reported going on fake business trips in order to get dressing up time. That's a level of deception that goes far beyond just "she didn't ask, so I didn't tell." If you add in past affairs, then yeah, there's zero basis for trust there.

And yes, there could be a lot of other issues going on in the marriage. It was a simplification on my part to treat the crossdressing as the sole issue. But you know, no one else was asking those kinds of question in the thread that set me thinking about all this. They were reacting as if his having concealed the fact that he was a crossdresser was the only issue.

Of course, it could also be a perfectly sound marriage, and the husband might have a solid reputation for telling the truth regarding everything except his crossdressing.

So when a crossdresser tells us that his wife found out and now she's upset, I guess a nuanced approach would be to ask questions about the relationship and try to get a feel for exactly what the issues are instead of assuming that she's experiencing

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So yes, I can see a much stronger argument for a wife feeling that the lies are the greatest betrayal of all.

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But to make that argument you have to hypothesize a context in which a lot of active lying has taken place. Within that context, I can agree with you.

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Also, when people lie, they do give the impression they care far more about the issue that the lie protects than the person they are lying to.

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In this case, the thing they care about is their self-respect as men. Things that affect the ego are very important to people. Just ask all the women who want to keep their crossdressing husbands in the closet.

Sophie, yes there have been GGs who've understood the difficulties their husbands faced with telling them about the CDing. Their marriages were likely free of other issues, or their personalities and their own backgrounds allowed for this level of understanding. What I'm saying is there are a lot more GGs who feel devastated about having been lied to, or if you prefer, not having had the CDing disclosed. Also, there are very few marriage where there is an absence of unresolved other issues. You just can't make a blanket statement that a GG's feelings of betrayal are just an excuse for non-acceptance of the CDing. This just isn't true.

I don't know how to have you believe this.

Maybe this is a good analogy: Most CDs on this board will tell me that I have no idea of the deep culture of homophobia boys face during their developing years from their peers, and how difficult it is for a CDer to allow his more feminine feelings to come through in front of his friends. As a more mature GG who has known secure men who have no qualms about crying when they need to, it is difficult for me to understand but I will allow that the homophobic culture exists, especially around developing boys.

In a similar vein, you might allow that women seek different levels of emotional intimacy from their partners than men do, and to not disclose a huge part of who you are is far more devastating to a wife than it might be to a husband?

EDIT
Sophie, if you like, you and I can work together on a survey of sorts (via PMs), that I can post in the Loved Ones section to determine what it is about the CDing that most upsets our GG members. If I make it a sticky, over time we should be able to have a decent sample.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Maybe this is a good analogy: Most CDs on this board will tell me that I have no idea of the deep culture of homophobia boys face during their developing years from their peers, and how difficult it is for a CDer to allow his more feminine feelings to come through in front of his friends. As a more mature GG who has known secure men who have no qualms about crying when they need to, it is difficult for me to understand but I will allow that the homophobic culture exists, especially around developing boys.

In a similar vein, you might allow that women seek different levels of emotional intimacy from their partners than men do, and to not disclose a huge part of who you are is far more devastating to a wife than it might be to a husband?

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A very good analogy. I'd like to add that the phrase "huge part of who you are" does not describe a constant. My "interest" (I knew little about the nature of crossdressing at the time) was a tiny part of who I was, not worth mentioning at the time I was married. After all, having a woman around all the time would satisfy that craving, right?

Nope, a couple of decades later and due to factors I don't fully understand it had grown to what is certainly a "huge part of who I am," but how does one judge at what point it became a big enough thing to prompt a discussion?

In my case, it was when it was causing me to become depressed, which directly affected my wife.

Knowing what I know now, I regret waiting so long. Talking about it a few years earlier would have made things easier for both of us. However, had my wife had been less reasonable and mature in her reaction I might well be regretting my decision and wishing I had never brought it up. I have faith in my wife, and she has shown that my faith is warranted. Unfortunately, this does not apply to all wives.

I think that the wife's reaction to CDing has a lot of it has to do with the nature of the marriage without consideration of CDing. If a couple has built a trusting relationship it can easily weather the revelation of CDing. If the couple's marriage is marred by doubt and uncertainty then a revelation of CDing might well be the last straw that ends the marriage.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

You just can't make a blanket statement that a GG's feelings of betrayal are just an excuse for non-acceptance of the CDing. This just isn't true.

[snip...]

In a similar vein, you might allow that women seek different levels of emotional intimacy from their partners than men do, and to not disclose a huge part of who you are is far more devastating to a wife than it might be to a husband?

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My brain's become so overloaded with nuance, I don't know what I think anymore. :p

Give me a few weeks to think about it. :)

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Sophie, if you like, you and I can work together on a survey of sorts (via PMs), that I can post in the Loved Ones section to determine what it is about the CDing that most upsets our GG members. If I make it a sticky, over time we should be able to have a decent sample.

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That sounds like an interesting project. Can you create polls on the forum?

I personally don't need any more proof that some CD's are just never EVER gonna get it....and will stop at nothing to diminish a GG's thoughts and feelings on the subject of LYING.

Can we close this thread please?
It's has become ridiculous with an agenda that only serves two or three.