Are All Crossdressers Transgendered

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

and then when i acted, when i transitioned, all those feelings stopped...the more i went down the path, the better i felt..the instant i started HRT i felt better...i knew it was right for me...i just knew..i'm sorry to say that it doesnt get better than that..

post srs, the dead feeling totally went away..the idea of switching genders seems incomprehensible to me....why would anybody do that?..LOL...think about that for a second..it feels to me now that i have always been this way...and what i've found is that its challenging to care about myself!! it's sad to me that i had to give up so much, but its inconceivable to me that i could be male..

in the end, the only way i found to answer the question was to do it...

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Well Kaitlyn, all's well that end's well. For me, I have accepted that my life is to be a struggle in this regard. I have tried to share with you some of my feelings, but believe me what I have struggled with in this respect is unimaginable. I have spent MANY A NIGHT BEING UP ALL NIGHT STRUGGLING! That's no exaggeration. All throughout the day my mind is constantly wandering, imagining what I could be doing. I'm constantly bringing it back. That's everyday all the time. If I dared to tell someone how I feel, I would be certainly ridiculed. Even here on this site that is probably the case by my even saying a little bit about how I feel. But that's fine. My life has been always about one struggle or another, so I'm used to it. As you say, a seed will be a seed. In a similar way I will be what I am.

When asked, I usually reply "I'm a top."

I crossdress to feel and be feminine because that is who I am so I would say yes in my circumstance only. That panty size does not fit all as I can read from other posts.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I should think that no matter how enticing and exciting it is for some CDs to imagine themselves female, if they don't experience that dead, sick feeling inside over being male, then they are not TS.

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I've only discussed it at length with one transsexual; and she didn't quite put it that way; it wasn't that being a man was so awful, simply that it wasn't 'right'. What I guess bothered me a little was that she had felt very much as I did when she was younger, but came to a different conclusion than I did about why it doesn't feel 'right'. I still wonder if she was right, and I was wrong. But I guess there's room in the world for both of our decisions.

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Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

I've only discussed it at length with one transsexual; and she didn't quite put it that way; it wasn't that being a man was so awful, simply that it wasn't 'right'. What I guess bothered me a little was that she had felt very much as I did when she was younger, but came to a different conclusion than I did about why it doesn't feel 'right'. I still wonder if she was right, and I was wrong. But I guess there's room in the world for both of our decisions.

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Great observation i think!

Can i add that it seems the feeling of being not right is the CAUSE of the terrible sickening feeling... i never expected to have that feeling.. even tho i never felt right, i buried the feeling..

sometimes i wonder whether a persons view on this topic is more shaped by what they actually do about the feeling rather than the feeling itself...
it took that sickening feeling to make me admit that i didnt feel right and to do something about it...it took outside events to start the ball rolling...

i've noticed over the years that for many people, they don't wait for that sickening feeling..they have a good view of themselves and the confidence in their own thinking to move forward prior to really suffering...

btw..
there is room for both decisions, but i bet she isn't wondering anymore about herself, and you are...thats a big part of the choice..how much can you stand wondering?..

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

i've noticed over the years that for many people, they don't wait for that sickening feeling..they have a good view of themselves and the confidence in their own thinking to move forward prior to really suffering...

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So, how does a CD, who is in the throes of a pink fog (the sheer excitement and unparalleled bliss of being the beautiful woman), know the difference between pink fog and true gender dysphoria?

Many CDs maintain a balance, but some cannot and sometimes life circumstances do contribute to this pink fog: he is newly divorced and the lid pops off the pressure cooker after having been screwed on tightly all those years, or there is high libido with an active sexual component to the CDing, or he lives in the proximity of an active T club where all is magic and wonder every Saturday night with admirers and other T girls falling at her feet. My description is a bit dramatic, but I write this to illustrate that sometimes it is not gender dysphoria that causes a euphoric feeling over the dressing. In such a case if he feels empty while in guy mode, might it not be in the same way that a compulsive gambler feels when he is not experiencing the heightened excitement of gambling?

I've read in this forum stories of deep regret among some CDers who were caught up in such pink fogs and who lost relationships and families over it, only to discover after years of unlimited dressing that the excitement did finally wear off for them.

How does such a CD know whether he is TS or experiencing a strong pink fog? The mind is a powerful thing, especially when all the feel-good chemicals that are released by the CDing (for some people) kick in.

This is a difficult question to answer.

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

If you keep having to use analogies to explain your idea, then you need to better construct your idea...

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Kaitlyn, I'm going to take another bite of that apple. I thought about it, and what I couldn't quite put my finger on was how the whole thing was integrating. Then I dawned on me that I was missing the key piece of the puzzle. So I am going to put forward an enhanced model for examining gender identity that I feel can account for many of the problems that people are having when they try to talk about it.

I would like to purpose is a paradigm in which three fundamental forces combine to form what we observe as gender identity. The first is cognition itself, i.e. the sentient being. The second is an ego attributed by desire. The third is time.

The first item, cognition, is merely the state of being aware. It is the sentient being that is experiencing the force of the other two elements. It is the thing that is doing the desiring. The second is a force acting on cognition that is dictating various conceptions of "I am this" and "I am that". It is the concept of the nature, quality if you will, that cognition feels about itself as it engaged is enjoying various types of desires. As an example, someone may feel a strong desire to draw and paint pictures and may come to feel that I am an artist. The third item is the force of time. It's activity is felt through confining cognition to the present, by moving it from the past into the future. It imposes change on cognition and integrates matter into a physiology that cognition experiences as it's physical body and well as the external objects that form the environment in which cognition is operating. It performs the function of disintegrating this physiology as well as the environment in which cognition is operating. It forces the condition of birth on cognition as well as death. It builds and destroys empires, even species. All of us are under it's influence and it can be seen in the unstoppable phenomenon of aging and ultimately death. Despite our best efforts we cannot thwart it's advance.

So we have these three fundamental elements and they combine to form what we experience as gender identity. Gender identity is nothing more than the specific case of ego that is associated with the concepts of masculinity and femininity. These two concepts of gender identity have various desires that are associated with them. As an example, when cognition experiences strong desires that require a vagina to fulfill, that is an indication of feminine gender identity. When cognition experiences strong desires that require a penis to fulfill, that is an indication of male gender identity. There are many desires that go into the formulation of gender identity, and the ones that I have just given are only examples, although prominent ones. When the preponderance of these desires leans toward either the masculine or feminine concepts we say that the person has a male or female gender identity respectively. Although these two types of gender identity exist at different ends of a spectrum, because of the wide variance of the nature of the desires that may be acting on cognition, there can be a mixture of these two fundamental types. When this happens, cognition will feel a mixed notion of gender identity and can experience periods when one or the other is prominent or if not prominent one may be exerting an influence in a particular instance or circumstance.

Time is an important element in all of this. Because only time is capable of arranging the circumstances such that the desires act in conjunction to form a coherent picture of gender identity. Cognition experiences many types of desires. For the experience of gender identity, certain desires have to be acting in conjunction at a particular time. For example if a person experiences a strong desire to cook, with the notion of making someone who is the object of their sex desire happy so that the person will be in a mood to enjoy sexual intercourse, that is a manifestation of gender identity. In this case the desire for sex, combines with the desire to cook to form a coherent picture. If however the person is cooking because their mother is coming for a visit, that is not NECESSARILY a manifestation of gender identity. Furthermore time has to provide the circumstances for that activity to take place. Each person has to have the time available to meet for a meal. They have to have the means to get to the place where they are to eat. The person preparing the meal has to have the means to obtain the ingredients and the necessary instruments for preparing the meal. And furthermore they have to be in the mood for the interaction to be successful. Otherwise the activity will be a flop. The more cognition is engaged in activity, SUCCESSFULLY BACKED BY TIME, that is associated with a particular flavor of gender identity, the stronger that desire will become. This is important, because in the future if there is an endeavor to do something which contradicts this notion, depending on the strength that the desire has acquired, there will be a corresponding force of resistance to the activity that runs counter to it.

How this relates practically to gender identity is that a person has various desires within their mind. These desires have to act in conjunction to form a coherent picture of gender identity. Time is the only force that is capable of integrating these desires in such a fashion, and not only that, it is the only force capable of causing the desires to grow into a force that is formidable enough to induce cognition to act on them in the first place.

We have discussed before how desires are present within the mind in the form of seeds, plants that have just started to grow, plants that are almost mature, and plants that are mature. Time is the mechanism that causes this inception, growth, and maturation process to take place. Human endeavor alone cannot suffice to cause the necessary growth process as well as integration to take place. However, when human endeavor is backed by time, then the necessary pieces will fall into place to form a male or female gender identity. But if the same endeavor is not backed by the force of time, then all of the endeavor will be fruitless. This is so because it is time that has provided the circumstances that has caused the various desires to acquire a relative strength in the first place. Without it's sanction the endeavor will simply not be successful in providing the sufficient food for the proper desires to grow to form a coherent picture of gender identity. For instance, you can put a dress on someone and repeatedly tell them that they are a girl, but if the circumstances for all the other desires that go into making female gender identity to do not take place, there will be no result, except for havoc.

With regards to the question of is it possible to change gender identity, the answer is yes, but it is not possible through human endeavor alone. When it is time for it to change, it can and it will change, DESPITE HOW COMFORTABLE OR UNCOMFORTABLE that may make ourselves and others around us. No amount of human endeavor, praise, ridicule, violent coercion, or torture will be able to stop it. It will be so and ourselves and as well as those we come in contact with can only tolerate it and make the necessary adjustments to accommodate it's presence.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

So, how does a CD, who is in the throes of a pink fog (the sheer excitement and unparalleled bliss of being the beautiful woman), know the difference between pink fog and true gender dysphoria?

This is a difficult question to answer.

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I would submit that what is termed "pink fog" is simply a localized manifestation of female gender identity confined to a particular time and possibly type of behavior.

With regards to how does one know, ONLY THE INDIVIDUAL will only be able to answer that question over the course of time. Others will not be able to determine it for the individual either a priori or posteriori.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

So, how does a CD, who is in the throes of a pink fog (the sheer excitement and unparalleled bliss of being the beautiful woman), know the difference between pink fog and true gender dysphoria?

Many CDs maintain a balance, but some cannot and sometimes life circumstances do contribute to this pink fog: he is newly divorced and the lid pops off the pressure cooker after having been screwed on tightly all those years, or there is high libido with an active sexual component to the CDing, or he lives in the proximity of an active T club where all is magic and wonder every Saturday night with admirers and other T girls falling at her feet. My description is a bit dramatic, but I write this to illustrate that sometimes it is not gender dysphoria that causes a euphoric feeling over the dressing. In such a case if he feels empty while in guy mode, might it not be in the same way that a compulsive gambler feels when he is not experiencing the heightened excitement of gambling?

I've read in this forum stories of deep regret among some CDers who were caught up in such pink fogs and who lost relationships and families over it, only to discover after years of unlimited dressing that the excitement did finally wear off for them.

How does such a CD know whether he is TS or experiencing a strong pink fog? The mind is a powerful thing, especially when all the feel-good chemicals that are released by the CDing (for some people) kick in.

This is a difficult question to answer.

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I wish i knew what to say... I totally get what you are saying from the SO side of the equation... I am a pragmatist. If a person is saying "i'm a crossdresser", i know from real life experience that the person may be dressing for various reasons. and that those reasons very often carry huge loads of emotional and psychological baggage... it is very hard for the person to sort through it, and it must be incredibly difficult for a SO to sort through it..honesty cannot be assumed. the person is often not being honest with themselves. basically it sucks for the SO..but good loving relationships are about helping each through difficult times...

Like all things in life, its about what you do about it... and to me, communication is key.. and the SO's best bet is to know the landscape (which Reine you do!), and then attune him or herself to your SO's communication..and do your best to read the landscape and act accordingly... guys that spend their time are home in pink fogs enjoying the feel of clothes are very unlikely to be transsexuals...it may drive you nuts as SO, but going to far is not an issue..but people that are constantly wanting to fly "en femme", have broad social lives, and feel a need to tell everybody they crossdress are in the zone of someone that may end up having their "bell rung".. no matter how much they protest..its a possibility...that's kinda just the way it is...

as SO you can kind of tell,... i raised the intimate knowledge my wife had that I was "not there"...it wasnt just a sex thing... she couldn't connect with me...she knew before i did!!!!!!
I was losing my own ability to connect because i wasn't male..i was fighting so hard to "make it"... as a SO if you start to get this feeling, this is another data point...its not proof of anything, but its something that must be explored..

i don't have alot of sympathy for the person that rides the crossdressing/euphoria train all the way to blowing up their lives... if a guy wants to CD more than he wants to be married, that's kinda all you need to know..its easy to get addicted to escape...pot, booze, gambling etc... hey i'm addicted right now to posting on the internet!!
if he then moves on to transition, there is way to much information and support out there..people that go through it that help, therapists, tsroadmap..i saw that guy on Dateline the other night who transitioned and regretted, he seemed like a flimflam guy to me... very "off" and his assertion that HRT caused him to transition was laughable...i think its a disservice to have him on TV..that's not saying mistakes are not made..but most people that go through channels don't publicly transition as a mistake...and most people that stop transition do so because of outside factors and are still transsexuals..

all IMHO opinion of course..

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Originally Posted by ReineD

This is a difficult question to answer.

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This is something that's recently started to bother me. A few months ago, I was reading on a TS site, and there was a link to an article on post-op regret. It gave a few very high profile examples--Renee Richards & Charles King--and suggested that late transition carried a not-insignificant risk of dissatisfaction. The article made me question whether I was doing the right thing by uncritically supporting those who expressed a desire to transition. The night I read it was the day before an online acquaintance of mine was due to go into surgery, and I had a moment of panic thinking of how much encouragement I had given her. What if she went through the surgery, and then decided, like Richards and King, that she had ruined her life? Should I feel partly responsible because I never offered a word of caution? When we first began talking, she had said that she didn't experience any dysphoria with her genitalia and couldn't imagine ever wanting to go through surgery. A year and a few months later, there she was about to have surgery. After reading that article, I was suddenly scared for her.

I've thought about it a lot since then, and decided that I have no business putting doubts into another person's mind. They have to go through counseling in order to move on to SRS, and it's the therapist's job to bring up these concerns and make sure that the person is right for surgery. If the person is my friend, I'm just going to support them and hope they've made the right decision.

For myself, I know what the pink fog is and what it means for me. I've done enough introspection on the question to know that transition would not be the right decision for me. That's all I can say about it.

Ionis, Kaitlyn, & Sophie, thank you for your answers. :hugs:

As you say, ultimately it is the person who determines what is best for them. I agree this is not something that can be categorized as if we can come up with some sort of diagnostic criteria. The issue is way too deep for this. I still wanted to ask though, just to bring forth the possibility there are other reasons than GID that would make a CD believe he might want to become a woman. And I guess the word "become" is key, rather than "align" the physical body with an internal female gender.

Kaitlyn, as a GG it is true that I'm looking at it from a wife's point of view and your point is excellent. She will know or rather she will FEEL the disconnect in the bedroom. Her instincts will tell her. I don't think you can get any more basic than this. But, sometimes such a wife will feel a disconnect even if her husband isn't TS. I've also read many threads here from CDs (it's hard to say whether they are married or not) who shared having reached sexual highs that describe autogynephilia. These CDs described a level of eroticism reached alone, through masturbation, that nothing could compare to not even having sex with their wives. So I suppose there would be a disconnect in such a marriage as well and it may look to the wife as if her husband just has low libido. She might feel as if he is TS, even though he insists otherwise. So ... how does SHE know that he is not TS and he is instead autogynephilic? It's complicated, and at this point maybe it doesn't matter. Many couples have very deep bonds without having them strengthened through sex.

That said, I also asked the question from the POV of a CD. Not all CDs who are experiencing such intense desires to be women are married. I rather think that by the time the desires are so intense, the couple might be divorced. So how does HE know whether he is in a pink fog or not and you're right, only he can determine this, although I can't imagine how. In your post above, you described a deep, sick feeling of emptiness associated with being male, and maybe there is a way to tell the difference between the GID and just an emptiness that comes from not experiencing the excitement of being dressed, or imagining a life of bliss living as the "wife" with a husband. Hopefully the medical people who see a person through the steps toward transition can pick up on this, if the CD is not able to.

i would say yes.. they are.. but.... i think that decoration is not really gender... I like to shave my body... I LIKE how it feels.. it makes me feel young.. I think that a lot of crossdressing for me has to do with health and life... men dont look in the mirror.. they are dirty and hairy... grooming is sort of femme in this soceity... i wonder WHY woman have longer life expentency than man... i think it has to do with this approach to the body and its maintenence,,, its definetly a part of the experience that i value and dont want to give up.

to reine, i think autogynephila is a canard...it is bad science... the reason i say this is twofold.. the theory makes assertions and assumptions that have no basis in anything..it undermines the credibility of it...its based on very little science...
secondly, it covers up the very real issue that lots of transsexuals develop a sexuality that includes being transsexual or gender variant behavior..calling it autogynephilia and inventing reasons why it exists misses the point... its more productive to simply understand it is a fact that a transsexual is often turned on by "transsexual thoughts".. a crossdresser is turned on by these thoughts as well... its just a fact...only the person having the thoughts can really tell the difference...its not helpful information for someone trying to better understand the possibilities for their spouse ...

in my earlier years, i was told sexually pleasurable thoughts precluded a "diagnosis of TS"..i don't think GID quite existed in those days... i was told to not feel guilty and enjoy being a crossdresser...that was bad advice...it goes both ways..mistakes are made in life.

Twenty years later i ignored that advice and went through with it, and i'll keep harping on it...i had doubts right up to the end..i had many ideas in my head about how i was doing a wrong thing...but it worked...all the doubt vanished... life is not perfect, i am faced with my 46 years of maleness all the time...but so what...it's not my fault that renee richards couldn't feel like a woman... i read what she says and all i can say is she is nothing like me...i can't help it that charles kane is a bit of an impulsive loon...
the only information this brings to the table is that OF COURSE its possible to regret this HUGE LIFE change.....but the VAST MAJORITY of transitioners DO NOT regret it...i think that's important...if i go for life saving surgery, i'm not turning it down because it might not work..


also reine once that disconnect happens, isnt it is very uncommon to get it back?...its possible, but when a loving wife "falls out of love" thats a big deal.. when the love is there, lots of things can be forgiven and tolerated... so again...i'm a pragmatist...if you are still in love, then go for it...get in there and prod and poke...you have the right if you are married to someone with this issue...but in the end, you can never control what you find...lots of people put fears under the rug...it takes alot of courage for a spouse to try to deal with this...it sucks to wonder if there is something in his life bigger than the marriage.... if out of love...then to me that's it...he's not there...its always nice to know why, but its usually better to just move on..ending marriage hurts, but extending it and knowing it will end is worse imho...

This has been a fantastic thread and still is... I am amazed at the level of intellectual debate, even if it is at the experience/belief system level. I think that the more we look for some unifying theory for cross-dressing the less helpful it gets. It has been the same in physics for decades. I increasingly fantasise about being w woman in a highly aroused, intense sexual encounter... my head has been everywhere! But does that mean that I should go for GRS? I am sorry, but I am a grandfather and I have relationships that are so so important for me.. I am not that old yet! So I have a big role to fulfil in the lives of my family. And I have lived most of my life as this guy... I know how it works.

If I were to to sex-change now... it may satisfy some aspects of my life, but I would lose so many others, and as we get older the risks get bigger. There are members like Inna who has taken that step and I am in awe of her, partly because I am not that 'brave'... So to Kaitlyn... I love the arguements you present... I can empathise, but I am just not into this black and white theory that some people want to dictate. The bulk of the scientific evidence is based on flawed work from years ago, and is based on the premise that CDing and/or gender dysphoria is a medical condition... I think the medical profession have finally accepted that the 'gay world' is not a medical condition... it is only recently in the UK that they have stopped treating pregnancy as a medical condition and regarding a pregnant mum as a patient!

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

...if you are still in love, then go for it...get in there and prod and poke...you have the right if you are married to someone with this issue...but in the end, you can never control what you find...

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Exactly. Although it would be nice for a wife to understand what is going on if there is a sexual disconnect with her husband, ultimately she can do nothing about it. Even he turns out to not be TS and her instincts are correct, it won't do any good. She can't "make" him recognize this, she can't convince him that he should turn his sexual focus back on to her.

The same is true in marriages where one partner has a fetish (insert any fetish you like ... bondage, latex), while the other partner doesn't. The fetish partner who may have reached a point where he cannot orgasm without the fetish object or the scene will be reluctant to abandon what gives him the sexual pleasure, and he may not feel as if there is any problem at all, while the non-fetish partner will feel an emptiness in their love making, since for her the lovemaking is more about the physical, psychological, and spiritual union between two people. Such a couple are simply no longer sexually compatible and it could spell the end of their relationship. The only way to change this, if the fetish partner wants a mutually satisfying sexual relationship with his partner, would be for him to willingly takes steps to rewire his sexual urges, through seeing a sex therapist perhaps. I believe such situations are rather common. But, I digress.

Back to pink fog vs. GID, I do think this discussion is more valuable to the CD than to the wife, since he is the person who ultimately steers his course no matter how well the wife understands what is going on.

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

i think autogynephila is a canard...it is bad science... the reason i say this is twofold.. the theory makes assertions and assumptions that have no basis in anything..it undermines the credibility of it...its based on very little science...
secondly, it covers up the very real issue that lots of transsexuals develop a sexuality that includes being transsexual or gender variant behavior..calling it autogynephilia and inventing reasons why it exists misses the point...

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I also disagree with Blanchard's use of autogynephilia as a motive for transition. This seems rather simplistic. But I do think AGP is a real condition that describes what many CDs experience. I can't tell you how many posts I've read here from CDs who have said that nothing comes close to fulfilling them sexually as much as the image of themselves as a woman and who either engage in autoeroticism or they seek meetings with faceless men. The people who post these things may well be fetish CDs (I have no way of knowing), and I don't know if they are married or not, but what they describe is AGP and in these instances it is isolated from any desire to transition. Or, perhaps the intensity of feelings that AGP produces might convince these CDs they want to be women.

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

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its more productive to simply understand it is a fact that a transsexual is often turned on by "transsexual thoughts".. a crossdresser is turned on by these thoughts as well... its just a fact...only the person having the thoughts can really tell the difference...its not helpful information for someone trying to better understand the possibilities for their spouse ...

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Again, although as a GG I am interested in this and there are wives who experience a sexual disconnect who would like to gain a better understanding, I agree with you. I think it is more useful for the CDs (not their wives) who may fit the patterns described above to realize there are other factors that may cause them to believe they want to transition other than GID.

This is why I was interested in your description of what true GID feels like, as opposed to just an emptiness a CD might feel when he is not experiencing the excitement of dressing.

I only just now started reading this thread. I avoided it at first, because I assumed it would be more heat than light, but like Kaz, I've been pleasantly surprised at the level of discourse. On the other hand, an awful lot of it is going right over my head. In particular, the whole Gender Identity thing is something I've never gotten the hang of, and I have to take people's descriptions of their own gender identity on faith.

So I'll tell a bit about myself and then ask: do you think I'm transgendered? (Cf. Feynman's question to the philosophy class: "Is a brick an essential object?")

I've never thought of myself as anything but male, mainly because I have a male body. Never thought of myself as an "X trapped in a man's body." I have some concept of what people mean by "masculinity," but have never understood why having or not having it is such a big deal.

I wear skirts nearly all the time, except at work. The skirts vary from plain denim to frilly feminine, depending on my mood and the venue, and I wear them with tights or knee socks and often with petticoats. No women's tops or dresses, but mostly because I haven't found or figured out how to make dresses or tops that I like the look of. I don't feel like I'm doing this to "feel female," whatever that means. I just like it, I feel better when I'm wearing skirts, and whenever I wear trousers, I feel like I'm having to force myself to do it.

I've always liked skirts and dresses and secretly envied girls because they got to wear them. I think if I'd had older sisters, or lived in a time and place where people wouldn't have gone berzerk over it, I would have been one of those boys who want to wear the princess or ballerina costume at dress-up time in nursery school.

I don't use a female name, don't wear makeup, breast forms, wigs, or heels, and I don't adjust my style or otherwise try to make people think I'm female.

So, what do you all say: am I transgendered?

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I agree this is not something that can be categorized as if we can come up with some sort of diagnostic criteria.

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I can tell you a little more about my own introspection, and what led me to the conclusion that I'm not TS.

• Prior to puberty I didn't crossdress, and had no desire at all to present as a woman. I did like to wear my hair long, but on the occasions when I was mistaken for a girl, I felt embarrassment rather than pleasure.
  
• It was during puberty that I started to crossdress, and it was always accompanied by sexual excitement and gratification. That pattern continued into my twenties.
  
• In my 30s and early 40s I went for long stretches of time without experiencing any desire to dress. I wasn't trying to suppress the desire. On the contrary, I had finally given myself permission to enjoy dressing up, but the desire just dried up on its own.
  
  
• When the desire came back, it wasn't accompanied by the same sexual desires I had experienced in the past, but I don't consider that to be sufficient evidence that I am TS. I think that there were always other things besides sex that I got from the experience, but my sex drive was so strong that it overrode everything else. Now that my sex drive has waned somewhat, I can enjoy those other things without distraction. There is still a certain amount of sexual excitement, but it is low-key. It's something that can be enjoyed for its own sake without having to lead anywhere. Necessarily.
  
• I've come to recognize that there is a difference between wanting to be feminine and wanting to be female. Being feminine creates a pleasurable emotional experience for me. Being female would destroy that experience. The things that I consider fun now would become chores. By dressing up, I get to enjoy what I see as the positive aspects of being female without the negatives.

Putting all that together, I don't think I fit the profile of a transsexual. I think a transsexual would manifest more gender dysphoria at an early age. I don't think a transsexual would be able to go for years at a time without feeling feeling any desire to present as female. Although I believe that a TS would experience a connection dressing and sexual urges, I wouldn't expect their dressing to always be accompanied by sex like mine was. A TS would also be more interested in having the complete experience of being female, whereas I only want certain aspects of it.

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Originally Posted by Kaz

The bulk of the scientific evidence is based on flawed work from years ago, and is based on the premise that CDing and/or gender dysphoria is a medical condition... I think the medical profession have finally accepted that the 'gay world' is not a medical condition...

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You are right to say that cross-dressing is not necessarily due to a medical condition, but I cannot agree with you that Gender Dysphoria should not be considered a medical condition. It is real and there is more and more evidence that it has biological causes that can be alleviated by medical treatment. If we say that it is not medical, then we lay open the possibility of once more relegating it to mental disease or defect - which we are only just beginning to escape.

The studies done on similarities between brains of cisgendered males and females and those of their TS counterparts is neither flawed nor "from years ago" in the accepted sense of that phrase.

Neither do I think it helpful to conflate Gender Dysphoria with "the gay world" - being transsexual makes me no more or less likely to have any given sexual orientation than had I been cisgendered.

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

Putting all that together, I don't think I fit the profile of a transsexual.

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I would agree with you, Sophie, that you don't appear to be suffering from acute gender dysphoria and that you are probably not transsexual (only you can state that with certainty hence my use of probably).

However, the origin of this thread was a discussion on whether all cross-dressers are transgender rather than whether they are all transsexual. In behaviour if not in identity, you definitely cross the gender stereotype which is the basic meaning of the word transgender.

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Originally Posted by Rianna Humble

However, the origin of this thread was a discussion on whether all cross-dressers are transgender rather than whether they are all transsexual. In behaviour if not in identity, you definitely cross the gender stereotype which is the basic meaning of the word transgender.

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I gave my response to the OP here and here. I don't really have anything else to say about that, but I found Reine's question on how one can know whether one is TS or just a CD who's deep in the pink fog interesting, and wanted to respond. :)

Kaz...Thnx for the post..

medical is not a pejorative term... whether or not transsexualism is medical (i think it is) is irrelevant to how we live... but its relative to how we are treated...
i am not a proponent of transition or else...even for transsexuals... i'm a proponent of people living a best possible quality of life...it sounds like you are doing great..my advice ? don't even flirt with thoughts of transsexuality or transition..
avoid the dysphoria at all costs.......

you are not suffering from gender dysphoria.. that's a very good thing... if you were suffering from it, you'd feel your life was a trap...and you were buried under a lifetime of faking it, a lifetime of missing out on life.....of meaningless successes and failures..you may feel like you weren't existing at all...waking up in the morning is a waste of time.. no matter how hard you try... i can liken it to feeling your survival instinct kicking in... these thoughts bring on guilt, shame and fear... which only heightens the problem... a person coming up to say "hi how are you" becomes something that makes you cringe...it is emptiness...i am not overstating how horrible it feels... i was so ashamed...i was so scared... and it wasnt until i started wishing i was dead that i finally sought out help to get through it...and i still hoped i could get through it without changing my gender... so enjoy you grandkids..thats what life is all about...your quality of life is good...and you are totally correct that you should not take steps that are gonna hurt that...

BUT
check out this post i saved from a couple yrs ago...its a great self disclosure about what i'm saying...

"...I've also been cross dressing my whole life and always knew there was more going on...but as usual with so many of us the feeling ebbed and flowed ....stronger then weaker....
Three years ago when it came over me, it was very powerful and I knew that it was time...all or nothing.. that was when I was 57....I cried in bed many nights wresteling with accepting myself...
Finally it was done...I let it go...I'd not fight it any more like I had done my whole life...I knew it was time...
I went on the internet to find help, found Lauras, got a Gender Therapist, got on HRT, began Electrolysis, got my surgery letter...
I'm 60 now...and just out full time...
They say that you know when your bell has "rung"...you'll know what you need to do...It becomes overwhelming...no doubts...
Heck...you'd think that if someone could keep it under control 57 years, they could ride it the rest of the way out and save themselves the pain, heartache, cost, loss and everything associated with transitioning....

But, when your "bell" rings....there is no other option...."

so despite my positivity around transition...i only did it because i had to.. ..and i know from experience that lots of people are surprised to end up transitioning..what's especially helpful i hope is that people feeling surprised and alarmed about those dysphoria feelings can find out that they are not alone...

and i think sophie's perspective on herself is an excellent example of a healthy way to consider your own situation...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rianna Humble

However, the origin of this thread was a discussion on whether all cross-dressers are transgender rather than whether they are all transsexual. In behaviour if not in identity, you definitely cross the gender stereotype which is the basic meaning of the word transgender.

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Sometimes threads go off on tangents after many pages, especially once the original question has been discussed and a few people then are left further exploring related topics. :)

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Sometimes threads go off on tangents after many pages, especially once the original question has been discussed and a few people then are left further exploring related topics. :)

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It seems this has although I didn't read a lot of the replies. I came late to the table, but believe crossdressers are one's who are dressing at home and not going out. I believe I was a crossdresser until February of this year when I went to a support group meeting and have since gone out with other t'girls and such. In other words, a graduation ceremony to become a tg. lol

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Originally Posted by kristinacd55

In other words, a graduation ceremony to become a tg. lol

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Kristina ... a crossdresser IS transgender. :) A crossdresser who presents female like you do, DOES cross the gender lines ... whether she does it in private or she goes out.

That said, I can think of two types of crossdressers where it can be debated as to whether or not they fall within the transgender umbrella:

1) The men who put on article of women's clothing purely and solely for fetish, and the minute they are done everything comes off. These men don't feel the slightest bit feminine, they don't gain any other benefit from dressing other than the sexual gratification. I honestly don't see the difference between any object fetish, whether the object is items of women's clothing vs. other objects. BUT ... if the sexual high comes from imagining that he IS a woman, then the gender lines do get crossed IMO.

2) A man who wears a man-skirt. He fully presents as a guy except he is wearing a skirt (like a modern version of wearing a kilt) ... like a few people in this forum and the members at skirtcafe.com ... even if the skirt is purchased in the ladies department; man-skirts can only be purchased in fringe designer stores in NYC and LA, so they are simply not available anywhere else. Just like I don't see my dad as having crossdressed when he bought tights to wear under his jeans to stay warm during winter. There is no desire to feel feminine in this instance, so I don't see it as having crossed any gender boundaries. BUT ... again this is a question of motive. if he wears such a skirt because he likes the airflow and the freedom, IMO it is not CDing. But if the main reason he wears the more severe styles of skirts in guy mode is because this is the closest he can come to feeling girly without causing havoc in his conservative world (either internally or externally), then he IS crossdressing, IMO.

So again, the two instances above could describe someone who wears women's clothing but who doesn't cross the gender lines, depending on HIS MOTIVE of course. Motive is everything.

I think the vast majority of the CDers in this forum do cross the gender boundaries and they do fit under the "trans"gender umbrella ... and it doesn't necessarily mean they want to be women. :p