This is why I find DADT so frustrating...(a GG perspective)

Moderator Note: This was originally posted to the "This is why I find DADT so frustrating..." thread, but was diverting the thread from its original course. This diversion contained some interesting thoughts so the thread was split.

Wow, this is why I have avoided joining this forum despite my H's encouragement. Posts like this one make me cringe. Since when did CD become something us wives MUST be involved in? Is this YOUR hobby or ours? Please forgive my anger here, but I get so confused and, yes, resentful, when I hear men whinge about DADT as thought somehow we NEED to be a part of your CD lives.

Why??

I don't understand this and probably never will. This is a huge problem in my own marriage as I have NO desire to be involved in my H's dressing and yet he continually pressures me to do just that. Yet, he has zero problem when I'm not interested in watching a sport game he's watching. And yes, he's very passionate about sport!! So what gives? Can't you just do this without involving us? I don't like my H's dressing because, despite what he sees when looking in a mirror, I see my H in a dress and he looks sort of silly. Doesn't matter how well he's dressed or how good his makeup, he's still just my H looking silly. No offense to anyone here as this is not a comment about all of you, just my personal feelings. I understand it's an urge, a need, but from a GG perspective, it's a very strange one! So is this really how he wants me to see him? As silly and strange? Surely it's better then, that I don't, and that he indulges this need without completely destroying how I see him as a man. Because, believe me, once we get that image of you in full dress in our minds, we CANNOT get it out, and if we don't like what we saw (which is usually the case) we won't like how we see you from then on even when you're in male mode. Of this I am certain. So maybe it's time some of the men on here acknowledge that it's not always good for us to see this side of you, and if you can't tolerate DADT, then perhaps the control issue isn't just with the wife.

Anyway, sorry for stealing this thread but this is a pet peeve of mine, has been the entire five years I've known of my H's dressing, and given the responses on this thread I'm better off leaving and letting him spend all day out with other GG's who apparently make him feel good. Funny that, given THEY don't have to live with it. Believe me, were they living with this, they might see this as something other than a quaint quirk. And maybe, just maybe, these other GG's are just being polite. I know I would be amused and even curious if I had a CD client. But marrying him? I don't think so!

Just my two cents, for whatever the thoughts of a GG are worth here.

Doormat, I just want to make a few comments. I don't intend to try to convince you to let him have everything his way; rather, I just hope that a few things can be clarified for your benefit. (BTW, I notice this is your first post. Thank you for being willing to express your thoughts here. I hope you don't fear I or anyone else will attack you.)

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Originally Posted by DoorMat

Since when did CD become something us wives MUST be involved in? Is this YOUR hobby or ours? ... I have NO desire to be involved in my H's dressing and yet he continually pressures me to do just that.

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DADT generally refers to zero acceptance of the dressing done by one's spouse - "keep it hidden," "don't let me see anything to do with it" - which sounds like your position. Understand, though, there are various levels beyond DADT.

One level is basic tolerance - acceptance that the spouse is going to dress as they like around the house. Another level is mild participation - this may include calling them by a femme name and otherwise referring to/interacting with them as a female. One intense level involves going out in public with "her," such as shopping outings. Another intense, but much different, level takes it into the bedroom - enough said about that. As is readily evident from various threads on this site, there are members in each of these situations.

Separately, is this something he would do, say, once a week? Or is it something that, given the chance, would last from the time he gets home from work until he leaves again the next morning?

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Originally Posted by DoorMat

Yet, he has zero problem when I'm not interested in watching a sport game he's watching. And yes, he's very passionate about sport!!

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First, let's apply those levels I mentioned to sports. Do you accept that he is going to watch, say, a Yankees baseball game, and so find something else to do with your time? Do you learn enough about his favorite teams that you can respond some when he talks about them? Or do you take/fake enough interest to actually watch games, not throughout the season, but at least when the team goes to the playoffs?

Now, let me make a huge distinction between his interest in sports and his interest in cross-dressing. The first is something he can share with plenty of other people, be it family - his dad, his brothers, his sons - or friends or even co-workers he has little else in common with. He can find many outlets readily available for interaction and support of this interest.

But, I expect, he has no one to turn to regarding dressing up. So he looks to you, hoping not just for acceptance, maybe not even for simple support, but for the chance to share and interact with one other person. More importantly, if he's like me, he is looking for affirmation for this part of himself from someone he loves, something almost no one else can provide. And why not his spouse? After all, you're the person he gets intimate with in other ways. Why, he reasons, shouldn't he safely be able to share this most private part of himself with you?


You, however, have a problem with it. As you say:

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Originally Posted by DoorMat

I don't like my H's dressing because, despite what he sees when looking in a mirror, I see my H in a dress and he looks sort of silly. ... So is this really how he wants me to see him? As silly and strange? Surely it's better then, that I don't, and that he indulges this need without completely destroying how I see him as a man. Because, believe me, once we get that image of you in full dress in our minds, we CANNOT get it out ...

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I get that this outer reality, which you must look at, in no way matches his internal self-image. But is that fundamentally any different from overweight women who wear tight clothes and see themselves as sexy? Or from men with dead-rat toupees on their heads?

He's not asking you to actually see him as a woman in reality, but to humor him in his fantasy. Trust me, if I ask my SO to play with my "boobs," I am not deluded into thinking that I actually boast D cups. But I temporarily ignore the reality for the sake of having fun via my imagination.

So, unless there is no way you are willing to accommodate his dressing at all, what you might consider is negotiating with him what limits you can tolerate. If so, include the distinct message that you are doing this for him, not for anything you want yourself. That then is a defense later against, having given him an inch, seeing him try to take a mile.

Thank you, ColleenA, for responding to my questions/concerns. And yes, I do fear attack on here - hence my reason to lurk for many months; however I possibly don't care any more what anyone thinks of me or my opinions as I'm struggling too much in my marriage to care and if I get any advice from here that helps then the attacks were worth it.

Anyway, again, thanks. I've had these conversations time and again with my H and I now find them pointless. He has his position and I have mine and we are STUCK! But currently our agreed on boundaries haven't been breeched (once a week, not around the kids, not in public etc) but I know he wants to add me into this equation and I just can't do it. I'm already traumatized by discovering a photo of my H fully dressed on our computer. I can't explain how I felt as I feel I just hurt people here. But I felt...scared and a little sick. Not because he looked terrible or anything as he actually looks very good! But sick in that way when you feel something isn't quite right...when you think someone is lying or talking behind your back or just doing something generally wrong. I felt that when I saw his photo because I felt he was hiding behind this female outfit, and possibly I also wonder if he isn't schizophrenic!

Sorry again if I offend.

This general wrong feeling has been very hard to overcome. Even when I think "it's just clothes, who cares", or "he is just having fun, what's the harm" I know I don't believe myself. I want my H to be a whole and happy person, an authentic person. The funny, handsome, secure man I married. But I struggle to see this now. I now see a man who hides behind women's clothes and makeup and who seems terribly insecure and confused as to why he does this. And yes, he's done it all his life, yet still he can't tell me why. Why do grown men play dress up? And why is it so hard for you all to see how strange this is for a GG? We want to understand and support the man we love, but we want a whole and happy man, not a man living a double life. That's not an authentic life, at least in my book it's not.

Perhaps I'll never accept or understand and should take note from the comments here that happiness might come from being apart. I don't know. I just know I love my H with all my heart, but the CD makes him very hard to like.

Again, sorry if I have offended anyone and for stealing this thread. Today I am just very sad.

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Originally Posted by DoorMat

Wow, this is why I have avoided joining this forum despite my H's encouragement. Posts like this one make me cringe. Since when did CD become something us wives MUST be involved in? Is this YOUR hobby or ours? Please forgive my anger here, but I get so confused and, yes, resentful, when I hear men whinge about DADT as thought somehow we NEED to be a part of your CD lives.

Why??

I don't understand this and probably never will. This is a huge problem in my own marriage as I have NO desire to be involved in my H's dressing and yet he continually pressures me to do just that. Yet, he has zero problem when I'm not interested in watching a sport game he's watching. And yes, he's very passionate about sport!! So what gives? Can't you just do this without involving us? I don't like my H's dressing because, despite what he sees when looking in a mirror, I see my H in a dress and he looks sort of silly. Doesn't matter how well he's dressed or how good his makeup, he's still just my H looking silly. No offense to anyone here as this is not a comment about all of you, just my personal feelings. I understand it's an urge, a need, but from a GG perspective, it's a very strange one! So is this really how he wants me to see him? As silly and strange? Surely it's better then, that I don't, and that he indulges this need without completely destroying how I see him as a man. Because, believe me, once we get that image of you in full dress in our minds, we CANNOT get it out, and if we don't like what we saw (which is usually the case) we won't like how we see you from then on even when you're in male mode. Of this I am certain. So maybe it's time some of the men on here acknowledge that it's not always good for us to see this side of you, and if you can't tolerate DADT, then perhaps the control issue isn't just with the wife.

Anyway, sorry for stealing this thread but this is a pet peeve of mine, has been the entire five years I've known of my H's dressing, and given the responses on this thread I'm better off leaving and letting him spend all day out with other GG's who apparently make him feel good. Funny that, given THEY don't have to live with it. Believe me, were they living with this, they might see this as something other than a quaint quirk. And maybe, just maybe, these other GG's are just being polite. I know I would be amused and even curious if I had a CD client. But marrying him? I don't think so!

Just my two cents, for whatever the thoughts of a GG are worth here.

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Someone just opened a window feel the fresh air, thanks for the other side of the story, not what we want to hear but I suspect it's pretty typical of most wives.

I wouldn't have a problem with my wife not wanting anything to do with it, in fact that IS pretty much where my wife and I are at. The "problem" in the OP, is that the wife wasn't happy with just not being a part of it, but instead felt compelled to make Leslie feel like shit about it the night before - again something that I also see with my wife from time to time.

Wanting nothing to do with it is perhaps understandable and livable, but being mean and hurtful about Leslie going out is a bit more than that isn't it?

Doormat, as Paula said, your viewpoint IS wanted here, whether it is flattering to us or not, hurtful to us or not, it is an honest opinion from a woman who loves one of us.

Agree, Kimberly. That, and no longer making any bones about going out as Leslie, the blame is shared for the breakdown of DADT, if it was ever DADT. Both Leslie's and Doormat's situations are sad, but let's not blame DADT because neither of those situations are DADT. DADT works for those that make it work.

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Originally Posted by DoorMat

Since when did CD become something us wives MUST be involved in? ... I don't understand this and probably never will... Anyway, sorry for stealing this thread but this is a pet peeve of mine ...

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It sounds to me like you need to talk about this further, but of course this thread is not the place. One possibility is to create your own thread in this forum asking CDs why they do it; I would be happy to reply to you. Another is to join the FAB forum. From the intro there:

"F.A.B. members (Female at Birth) ... have a private forum that you may like to join, specifically for F.A.B. members only. ... There are rules regarding access, which do seem a little harsh, but please forgive us for that, it is just a precaution to make our F.A.B. Forum a safe haven."

I expect you would find there women encompassing a wide range of reactions toward their SOs' dressing, from acceptance through to absolute rejection, but at least you should at least have the opportunity to vent to and hear from others in the same position as you, as opposed to someone like me who can offer sympathy but simply cannot relate.

It isn't stealing the thread. This is about pushing crossdressing activities beyond DADT and wondering what the problem is. That is the similarity between Leslie's situation and Doormat's.

In terms of looking at DADT versus any involvement of the SO, I agree with you, Nicole; comments here are quite appropriate. But in her second post, DoorMat (like Sara Jessica, I too have a hard time calling her that) mentions wondering why grown men play dress up. That is the discussion that I didn't want to see take over this thread.

Why won't people just accept the fact that EVERY single one of us probably has something that we are completely inflexible about? If a SO won't accept something and has their feet firmly planted, trying to discuss that something with them or compromise or convince them to change their beliefs is likely only going to make things worse.

It doesn't matter how long you beat a dead horse. He is still never going to get up and all you are going to do is wear YOURself out.

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Someone just opened a window feel the fresh air, thanks for the other side of the story

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+1

That's why I love cd.com, there are few other places where opposite perspectives come together like this.

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Originally Posted by DoorMat

I don't understand this and probably never will. This is a huge problem in my own marriage as I have NO desire to be involved in my H's dressing and yet he continually pressures me to do just that.

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Hi DM, welcome to the forum! :hugs: (I'm a GG too).

I'm so glad that you decided to join the site and participate in this thread. This is a great opportunity to see both sides of the fence at the same time. I also fully agree that we cannot compare a GG nail tech or SA who treats a CDer as a platonic friend (just like a friendship with another GG or a gay man), to a wife who has difficulty taking in the feminine part of her husband. Also, it's OK to share how you feel from your heart. Many of the members here will understand, because they have similar situations with their own wives and they just want to make things better, just like you do. You might, however, start your own thread about this, which would be a better place for the members to answer your questions about why they dress ... so as to not derail too much from Leslie's thread.

Anyway, I wanted to ask you, and this is very much in topic with Leslie's situation ... how exactly does your husband pressure you to be involved in the CDing? I have a feeling that you and your husband have two completely different understandings of what "to be involved" means and I suspect this is the situation between Leslie and her wife as well. So if you would answer this, I think I may be able to help.

:hugs:

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Originally Posted by ReineD

. . . I also fully agree that we cannot compare a GG nail tech or SA who treats a CDer as a platonic friend (just like a friendship with another GG or a gay man), to a wife . . .

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I'm not sure if this is taking the thread too far off of topic or not, but this in itself is an interesting observation. It has been obvious to me for a while now that quite a few women, maybe even most women, are quite all right with the idea of one of us. Many might even find the idea fascinating. There is a catch though - it is interesting and perhaps admirable as long as it is SOME ONE ELSE'S HUSBAND! When it is YOUR husband, it is no longer cute or interesting! LOL

Also, and to get a bit more on topic, you really can't place a whole lot of stock on the fact that SA's and the like are kind, good natured, and friendly to us. After all, this is their job and they are paid specifically to treat people well. When a person approaches you in a social setting and spends time to have a conversation with you, this is friendship. A salesperson engaging you, spending time with you, and helping you to feel good about yourself is just someone doing a good job. Don't get me wrong, they might be sweet people and might even actually enjoy spending time with you, but when you boil it down, their core motivation is to do their job well.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Anyway, I wanted to ask you, and this is very much in topic with Leslie's situation ... how exactly does your husband pressure you to be involved in the CDing? I have a feeling that you and your husband have two completely different understandings of what "to be involved" means and I suspect this is the situation between Leslie and her wife as well. So if you would answer this, I think I may be able to help.

:hugs:

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Hi ReineD. Sorry I didn't reply immediately but I went away and had a think about this whole situation. And sorry for changing topic on this thread - I don't really want to discuss the WHYS of CD as I feel this is a question with no answer and a thousand answers. No point dwelling too much on this as I'll only turn myself inside out!

Back to DADT, the real problem I'm having is visualizing my otherwise masculine husband in women's attire as it makes my stomach turn despite my open mind, and my H pushing me to help him dress so we can then sit about chatting like friends. I also guess he wouldn't mind if intimate relations entered this equation as he is a CD motivated by both comfort and sex.

But what he doesn't seem to understand is I don't want to sit and chat with my husband like girlfriends. I have plenty of them already. What I don't have plenty of are husbands! The very idea that he thinks I would want to participate in such an activity causes me untold resentment. He also seems to think I would enjoy helping him transform into this alter ego, like I'm still some giggling teenage girl obsessing over make up and outfits. I'm a busy married career woman with two children and a mortgage. When I get three spare minutes in my day I can think of THREE HUNDRED other things I'd rather do than act like a teenage girl with my H.

And the sex thing? Yep, no point going there really. My H has this weird deluded theory that everyone loves femininity, even on men. He honestly can't imagine why I'm not turned on by boobs and lace and long hair and that if I'd just compromise and give this a try I might actually like it. I want to kill him during these conversations. He really has NO clue what it's like be a heterosexual woman. No clue.

So here we are, in some strange DADT situation where I'm actually quite content when I'm not involved with the CD as he's a great husband and father and before all this came to light five years ago, life was good. But DADT is apparently no longer working for him and with the way things are going, I can see our good life turning very, very sour. I don't want to compromise on who I am any further than I already am doing. Just being married to a man who dresses like a woman is beyond my personal and sexual comfort zone. Why can't he see I'm already compromising by just staying married to him? And why did he give his mother and father and brother the respect of not dressing around them when he lived at home (none of whom still have any clue my H is a CD) yet he can't give me this same respect?

Anyway, sorry this is so long. I'm sure there is more here that I've not mentioned or thought of, and I'm certain I've insulted everyone again, but I never imagined my life and marriage would turn in this direction and I'd give anything to have it turn back to the way it was. :sad:

And I fully intend on changing my name on here at some point, lol. Perhaps to FluffyBathMat? But right now DoorMat fits perfectly, as life sure is wiping its feet on me at the moment.

And sorry, one other thing: if everyone wouldn't mind referring to my H as a 'he' if they do respond to my endless questions, that would be very helpful. I know many of you prefer 'she', but I didn't marry a female and the very idea I would ever address my H as 'she' just pushes me further along the "I give up" line.

Thanks.

Hello Doormat

I'm wondering if a licensed but nonjudgemental marriage counsellor might help you and your DH get over your differences. A member of the clergy is probably not appropriate here.

What you describe is rather like what we call pink fog, that is, gone a bit off the deep end with crossdressing without considering what his partner thinks.

Unless he slows down drastically, I see you becoming more resentful of the crossdressing. It isn't helping now, and unless things change, things are going to get worse.

It would be good for your DH to have his own account here. It sounds to me he needs to be brought back to reality. If there is something underlying his dressing, that has to be worked out separately, and a counsellors assistance is likely the quickest way to get this in the open, if he will go.

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Originally Posted by DoorMat

But what he doesn't seem to understand is I don't want to sit and chat with my husband like girlfriends. I have plenty of them already. What I don't have plenty of are husbands! The very idea that he thinks I would want to participate in such an activity causes me untold resentment. He also seems to think I would enjoy helping him transform into this alter ego, like I'm still some giggling teenage girl obsessing over make up and outfits. I'm a busy married career woman with two children and a mortgage. When I get three spare minutes in my day I can think of THREE HUNDRED other things I'd rather do than act like a teenage girl with my H.

And the sex thing? Yep, no point going there really. My H has this weird deluded theory that everyone loves femininity, even on men. He honestly can't imagine why I'm not turned on by boobs and lace and long hair and that if I'd just compromise and give this a try I might actually like it. I want to kill him during these conversations. He really has NO clue what it's like be a heterosexual woman. No clue.

So here we are, in some strange DADT situation where I'm actually quite content when I'm not involved with the CD as he's a great husband and father and before all this came to light five years ago, life was good. But DADT is apparently no longer working for him and with the way things are going, I can see our good life turning very, very sour. I don't want to compromise on who I am any further than I already am doing. Just being married to a man who dresses like a woman is beyond my personal and sexual comfort zone. Why can't he see I'm already compromising by just staying married to him? And why did he give his mother and father and brother the respect of not dressing around them when he lived at home (none of whom still have any clue my H is a CD) yet he can't give me this same respect?

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Doormat it sounds like your husband needs a reality check based on what you're saying here. Only you can do that. Does he know how you really feel? I'm not being judgemental here btw as I know some SO's cannot deal with it, and I get it. It cannot and should not be forced on anybody.

DoorMat - Thanks for your honesty and candor. I can't help but feel your H has placed his needs beyond yours and your marriage. I hope you can convince him to get help.

Hi DoorMat, I can understand where your coming from. My wife and I had long conversations into the night about CD'ing and and what we have found for her it was more of a breach of trust then anything else for us. she married me with herself fully exposed and open to me while i hid this dark secret from her. She felt tricked and betrayed and that's why she resented my CD'ing at first.

once we built our marriage up again she also discussed a few other things that i didn't think of at all.

she's not a lesbian, she married a man, she's attracted to men and if she wanted a chick she would have got one. I can't force her to change what she likes and i haven't ever tried but its good to just say it. Also if i'm both the man and the woman in the relationship...what the hell is she doing here? she felt like she was either being pushed out of her roll in the marriage or into the male roll. We worked most it out but it took almost a year of talk.

Could it be that also CD'ing represents the feeling of a breach of trust in your marriage?

Yeah. I second and third most of what's been said so far.

Doormat? Your hubby is mistreating you. You know it, I know it, he probably knows it too on a deeper level than he is working on right now. The only person who can call a halt to this is you. He is operating on a fantasy level and he needs a little grounding from you.

Now I don't mean to say that he is deliberately trying to sabotage your marriage. I'm sure he's not. But that is what is gonna happen if you can't bring him down to earth.

There's a LOT of fantasy in crossdressing and your guy is caught up in fantasy. If you don't want to participate in his crossdressing just tell him so. There is no law that says you have to. If you don't want to sit around and chat with him when he is dressed, then don't do it. Go out. Go to bed. Take a bath. He'll get the idea. If you don't want to go shopping with him, TELL him. Just don't do it. You don't want to help him with his makeup? Don't do it. There's no law that says you have to. There's no "Crossdressing Rule Book". I learned how to put on MY makeup. So did you. Let him learn how to put on his own darn makeup.

It sounds like you have a few rules. They are called boundaries on this forum. And any crossdresser who wants to stay married abides by them. Those few who continually try to "push" the boundaries are the ones who end up with a big lawyer fee and child support payments.

Look, not very many women ask for a crossdressing husband. It's not a pleasant discovery for most wives. But really, it's a pretty harmless hobby if it doesn't take over his life. That's what boundaries are for.

You say, "OK, I hate your crossdressing, but if you don't shove it in my face, I can live with it. Lets make some rules."

And then you sit down together and make some rules. It sounds like you are well on the way to doing that already. Good.

It also sounds like he is having trouble abiding by those rules. Not so good. Maybe there should be consequences. He's a grownup. Grownups can handle consequences.

I can't tell your hubby that he's acting like jerk. I'm not there. If I was I'd tell him. But you're there. The ball is kinda in your court.

Your marriage can survive crossdressing. But there needs to be a few rules. Suppose he wanted to take up rock climbing? That's a VERY dangerous sport. You could say NO. "No rock climbing for you buddy. Not if you want to stay married to me." Or, instead of forbidding it, you could lay down a few rules: Only with a guide. Only in July and August. Only $100 a month. Not until the kids are grown. Whatever. I dunno. A few rules. Do the same thing.

You can do it. Your marriage is probably worth it.

Stephenie

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Originally Posted by DoorMat

And sorry, one other thing: if everyone wouldn't mind referring to my H as a 'he' if they do respond to my endless questions, that would be very helpful. I know many of you prefer 'she', but I didn't marry a female and the very idea I would ever address my H as 'she' just pushes me further along the "I give up" line.

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Thanks for mentioning this. I'll keep it in mind. I refer to my own SO as "he" when he's in male mode, as "she" when in female mode, and sometimes as "s/he" which is how I've come to think of him. So if I let a "she" slip in, please put it down to an oversight on my part, and not an attempt to offend.

:hugs:

Just so you know, my SO dresses an average of twice weekly ... once on her own during the week to go out in the next town over at a Starbucks (with laptop and office work) and once on weekends when we go out, again in the next town over, for either an afternoon of doing Saturday afternoon stuff and dinner. Lately though, he's been averaging about once every two weeks because he's so busy at work. And he rarely feels the need to dress at home, although she did dress exclusively at home (the frequency would vary) for years before she learned how to go out and blend in everywhere. Oh, and my SO finds it is in his best interest to live according to society's rules, which is to keep his gender identity private from people at work, his elderly parents, my kids and my ex, and our more traditional-minded friends.

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Originally Posted by DoorMat

He also seems to think I would enjoy helping him transform into this alter ego, like I'm still some giggling teenage girl obsessing over make up and outfits.

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Originally Posted by DoorMat

My H has this weird deluded theory that everyone loves femininity, even on men. He honestly can't imagine why I'm not turned on by boobs and lace and long hair and that if I'd just compromise and give this a try I might actually like it. I want to kill him during these conversations. He really has NO clue what it's like be a heterosexual woman. No clue.

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He's projecting what he wants onto you. And it does sound like Pink Fog, in that he has lost sight of age-appropriate reality. Women past their teenage years do not spend evenings having girly nights of makeup and nail polish. I mean I understand his enthusiasm since it is all relatively new to him (and likely he is still very much in the closet?), but he needs to recognize that the focus on girly fun is unique to him and other CDers who are in his shoes, namely the CDers who are allowing themselves for the first time in their lives to push past all the male taboos, the major one being "THOU SHALT NOT LOOK LIKE A GIRL NOR BEHAVE IN A GIRLY MANNER". :p

He does need to dress though, and if you are interested enough to learn why, you will gain a better understanding of this by posting specific questions here (over a period of time ... you don't have to do this all at once) to get a variety of answers. This is what I did, and the biggest difference it made in my life is that my SO and I have an absence of conflict over the CDing. Honestly we do, and I've got to tell you that it's more peaceful living this way than resenting a part of my SO that he cannot help being.

But, trust me, all of this takes time and also requires some major deconstruction on our parts about what we think we know about gender. As obvious as this is, I need to say that our SOs, even though they are not transsexual (they do not wish to become women), do not have the same type of gender identity as do men who do not CD.

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Originally Posted by DoorMat

my H pushing me to help him dress so we can then sit about chatting like friends. I also guess he wouldn't mind if intimate relations entered this equation as he is a CD motivated by both comfort and sex.

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OK. The only part of the above quote that I can see from your husband's POV, is a desire to spend a few hours with you dressed, and this is because he wants you to accept his need to be feminine occasionally, which is an integral part of his psyche. It's not a hobby. I've got to say though, that the time spent does not need to be vacuous (doing things that teenage girls do). You can talk about current events, the kids, watch the same type of movie that you always watch together, share a meal and discuss your respective days, or any number of things that you do together when he's in guy mode. My SO is the same person in thoughts and in deed, whether s/he is dressed or not. And I do not see a different person, whether he is in guy mode or girl mode, even though I did in the beginning since seeing him dressed was such a departure from his male look.

As to the other parts of your quote, your husband would do well to realize that it is not a good idea to ask a wife who is turned off of the CDing to help him get dressed or put makeup on. Not a good idea at all. Also, he may wish to be sexual with you while dressed, but hopefully this is not something that he's pushing onto you. Above all else, partners need to respect each other's sexual boundaries. Not doing this spells major libido issues later on for the person who feels pushed.

I hope you will stick around DM. Not because I want to see you "convinced" that the CDing is the best thing since sliced bread, but because I believe that any wife who is married to a CDer will be happier if she at least begins to understand where it is coming from, which will help her dispel any stomach-knot-making notions of what she thinks it is all about.

i wish i never read this post there is a marriage that aint gonna last just as mine didnt and its sad

Doormat, you're a gem. You've nailed the unhappy wife's side of DADT perfectly. It surely is not your obligation to embrace our "silly" hobby. It's bad enough that you even have to know it goes on when you're not around. I've already been through this. Like I said in the other thread, DADT doesn't work. There's just no way for the wife to get this ridiculous image of her man in a dress out of her mind whenever she sees him. Ridicule is the obvious reaction. I just don't see how we can expect anything less. On the extremely rare instance where the wife can actually embrace our silly hobby then the marriage has a chance. Otherwise it is just an exercise in toleration.

What does DADT mean anyway. I've never heard it before

Hi, D M,

Iv looked at this issue from another perspictive as im not a dresser or trans & how would i cope if i could with a mate that is a male. iv gone over a lot of issues,
I know i can accept others who dress as us or are trans & with a need , iv had to look at this from a womans view mine.

Okay i know there are quite a few women who dont have a issue with thier husbands dressing yet its more than ... just ... the dressing if it was only that then its about clothes not all the rest of what takes place, that then becomes the issue,

its the forms the hair =wigs makeup shoes, the voice & then the look. then takeing on the manisims like its a act impersinating us & trying to be us. .

We are wired differently we think differently & really .... WE ... just are different.

I still find it hard to understand men i dont relate to men never did & never will & when they dressup i think how strange now whats really going on

So could i live with a partner who is a dresser. the whole way of what we mean by a dresser, i would be struggleing i can tell you . when your in a close relasionship . i need to see the real person not an actor not some one who is trying to be someone who they are not.

as you know im a SCA, Renaissance member our men dress in dress's skirts & lovely gowns lovely colours & yes they look so nice , you know its just so lovely . these men are all out men stronger & bigger than i , yet there is no intent to be us or like us , its not an issue .we have over 70-80 men i know them all we are together for a week once a year with our women & some children its a neat time. so there is a difference in the clothes they are just being them selfs.

& when we come on our forums it all changes, our island people do dress in lovely colours & skirts .male's.yet they are not trying to be other than who they are they are normal men.

Of cause you may ask what am i in all of this , one of the funny things is i never dressed as we are talking about . though our men do wear Kilts thats not the same as the dresser's would say.

I have a close friend over in Austraila who i talk with a lot & yes spent time with & his Mum & she still calls him by his birth name .

& has dressed for quite a while & told me he was going for tranistion. so the name has changed to fem. So as a friend ill accept with out a problem . its the liveing with that i would find very hard, & that is as a normal woman .

...noeleena...

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Originally Posted by Amanda_P

What does DADT mean anyway. I've never heard it before

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Don't ask, don't tell.

I am ecstatic to have moved from total secrecy to DADT with the permission of my wife after she joined me in therapy. She thought therapy would cure me. Now, we're focusing on us.

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Originally Posted by Lynn Marie

On the extremely rare instance where the wife can actually embrace our silly hobby then the marriage has a chance. Otherwise it is just an exercise in toleration.

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"Embracing" is not necessary for the marriage to be a success. Many people are married who do not embrace one or more things about their spouses, in fact this likely describes most marriages. Successful marriages are based on genuine and heart-felt compromises. A more valuable attitude to have, is acknowledgement of a spouse's inherent need, and an ability to respect the spouse's needs and give them room to express those needs, even if it takes awhile to fully understand them. And this goes both ways. A CDer needs to respect where his wife is at with all of this too.

I don't know your personal circumstances, but if you were married and expected that your wife should have embraced the CDing in order for your marriage to be happy, then I can understand the reasons for a divorce.

Obviously, if the husband experiences a complete gender change (a wish to live full time or near full time) and the wife cannot change her heterosexual romantic/physical attraction, then it is a different story. There cannot be a compromise if the husband is a woman and the wife wants to be married to a man. But it doesn't sound as if this is DM's situation.

Hi Door Mat....and welcome to the forum...what an entrance you made! It's refreshing to hear a GG's point of view even when it's a painful observation. The great thing is that it gets the conversation going which is what my wife and I are finally going to be doing in therapy to try and save our marriage. She's been out with me dressed 4 times now, but has major problems with it (especially in the bedroom) but hasn't been able to share it up until now. The main thing is to get a dialogue going, because in the past the only thing she would say was "I have issues with the crossdressing" without being specific in nature.

Thanks again for the post, and for the moderators to split this off too.

Hi Doormat and thank you so very much for your post.
My wife and I are in the same situation as you and your H are. The only difference is that I've accepted the fact that my wife does not want to see me dressed or participate in any girly activities with the "man" that she married.
Another difference is that my wife didn't say I looked silly, she said it creeps her out. You've provided me confirmation that she doesn't love me any less, she just doesn't want a girlfriend who sleeps with her.
Simple, huh? And I get it.

What we all want here, are those women who will accept and will embrace and will go to bed with us dressed. So many threads abound on this site with the bliss of an accepting partner. We sometimes get caught up in the fantasy and selfishly expect our wives to embrace our hobby. Most times the wanting of acceptance overshadows the reality of the situation.

A majority of us must step back and try to remember that our wives have likes and needs and feelings too.

DoorMat, since my original post on DADT triggered your emotional response to this touchy subject, I feel compelled to address a few additional comments to you personally in order to clarify further how I stand on this, and how your situation differs from mine. And yes, I hate that name you call yourself as well - it denotes victim-hood, and you are better than that.

First of all, IMHO, you are not in a DADT relationship - at least not in the way that I would define it. Yes, your husband is a crossdresser and wants to be free to explore this side of himself, but he is going way beyond DADT. He doesn't just want you to acknowledge and accept him as he is and be free to pursue his "hobby" without interference - he wants you to actively participate in it, and this goes against every fundamental instinct that drives you.

He wants you to be - as sex columnist Dan Savage defines it - GGG, or "good, giving, and game," which, as Dan sees it, "is what we should all strive to be for our sex partners. Think 'good in bed,' 'giving equal time and equal pleasure,' and 'game for anything—within reason." Fair enough in principle, but it also implies that the partner is willing to embrace and indulge his/her spouse's or SO's own particular quirks and fetishes (assuming that these exist) without judgement because - wait for it...they actually love them and are committed to making them happy, even if that requires some compromise. Does your husband do this for you?

DoorMat, you have expressed a revulsion to your husband's desire to present as a woman for reasons that are well known to those of us who have non-accepting wives or SO's, and we can't fault you for that. You are a product (victim?) of your upbringing and socialization, and not everyone is an artistic, unconventional, non-judgemental free spirit who actually embraces and can have fun with the type of "uniqueness" that we crossdressers represent.

Like you, my wife feels that she married a "man", does not want to meet "Leslie", see a picture of "her", or even see "her" clothes or any other tangible evidence of "her" existence. And again, like you, she feels that if she ever saw her husband in full "Leslie" mode, it would indelibly sear so powerful and highly negative an image of him in her brain that it would haunt her forever and irreparably damage the relationship. The other part to this is that she also vehemently asserts that she is not a lesbian, and therefore cannot be expected to embrace a relationship that would appear to push her in that direction.

I accept that, DoorMat, just as you have every right to feel the way you do about this whole crossdressing thing insofar as it involves your husband. And quite rightly, you did not sign up for this, nor did my wife, or the wives of many others here. But then again, I didn't choose to be transgendered; transgenderism chose me.

Guilty as charged when it is said that I should have informed my wife about this before we got married so that she could have made an informed choice as to whether or not to flee or stay in the relationship. And yes, if I had to do it over again, I would definitely have told her about this side of me. My only defense here is that I was still very young when we were married (23 years old), I was not yet a fully formed adult, and at that time, didn't know myself as well as I do now. There was precious little information about crossdressing out there back then (1970's), it certainly wasn't something that you could talk to anyone about, and I truly believed that this was simply a phase and that marriage and a regular sex life would "cure" me. Clearly I was wrong. I suspect that the same is true of your husband, as it is for many others here.

But in all fairness, my wife has to share some of the blame for this in terms of being an "enabler" and staying in the relationship despite her avowed aversion to my crossdressing. After all, she had many opportunities to leave me over the years had all this been too much for her, and she even chose to have a second child with me well after she had found out about my crossdressing, thereby further cementing the relationship. The reason she continues to give to this day for staying with me is that despite it all, she loves me deeply, can't imagine a life without me, and is willing to put up with this quirk (within reason) because the "good" in our marriage far outweighs the "bad".

But here's where we differ, DoorMat - unlike your husband, I have no desire to force my crossdressing down my wife's throat. Not only would I feel equally awkward presenting as "Leslie" in front of her after all these years given her very negative stance against this - how much "fun" would it really be to have her participate in this activity under these conditions, especially if it is done under duress and with clenched teeth?

So, no - I have no problem whatsoever with DADT according to this reality. But where I do see a disconnect is when we have allegedly agreed to a "live and let" live" type of arrangement and I try to follow the "rules", and then female emotions that trump logic and prior agreement occasionally rear their ugly head and I am subjected to the kind of negativity that I described in my prior posts.

I try to be understanding and "suck it up" on those occasions, but sometimes the rants and inconsistency just get to be too much, and I simply say "screw it" and do what I have to do for the sake of my own mental health. And sometimes, that means doing something that my wife disapproves of, including my increasingly frequent excursions out in public as "Leslie" of late. But despite all that, I still respect the basic DADT "rules" that we have established and only do it when she is not around.

But what I am no longer prepared to do is to sugar-coat it or lie about my crossdressing in general to "spare" her feelings. And if there is one thing that I have leaned from my participation on this forum, it is that for most women - when they finally do discover that their husband or SO is a crossdresser - it is not so much the fact that he does this, it is the previous absence of honesty surrounding it that causes the problems. The associated lack of trust issues that then permeate all other aspects of the relationship as part of that fall-out often start to grow like a cancer as a result.

So to that end, I've finally decided to "grow a pair", be totally forthright about what I do, and let the chips fall where they may. It is the lesser of the two evils, even if there is a certain degree of risk associated with such openness. And the funny thing is, I have no doubt that on some level my wife appreciates this, but her pride and stubbornness preclude her from ever admitting it.

DoorMat, I feel your pain, and can offer no assistance except to clarify further on how I stand on this whole issue as I have done, and where it differs substantially from yours. Perhaps outside counselling by an impartial third party would be beneficial here as others have suggested. My wife and I have tried it as well and have found it to be useful, but don't expect miracles. At the end of the day, it all comes down to how flexible a couple can be in modifying entrenched behaviors and accepting the others' POV and needs.

Clearly, my wife and I are still working though our issues as well after 35+ years of marriage, and sometimes it just comes down to agreeing to disagree. But even this is not always as simple as it seems - hence my venting here in my previous posts and seeking advice and support.

But I will say this - this forum has been a God-send to me in terms of better understanding myself and finally coming to terms with who and what I am - and actually embracing this side of me for the way it makes me a much more balanced and complete individual. It has done more for me in that respect than much of the counselling and therapy that I had pursued prior to that. And the reason is very simple - THE PEOPLE HERE HAVE ACTUALLY LIVED THE EXPERIENCE, AND THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.

You have done well to come to this forum to seek help and support, and like others here, I strongly urge you to join the F.A.B. section to be in the company of GG peers who can better help you sort through your issues. Now as for that name change that is so sorely needed...;)

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Originally Posted by ReineD

"Embracing" is not necessary for the marriage to be a success. Many people are married who do not embrace one or more things about their spouses, in fact this likely describes most marriages. Successful marriages are based on genuine and heart-felt compromises. A more valuable attitude to have, is acknowledgement of a spouse's inherent need, and an ability to respect the spouse's needs and give them room to express those needs, even if it takes awhile to fully understand them. And this goes both ways. A CDer needs to respect where his wife is at with all of this too.

I don't know your personal circumstances, but if you were married and expected that your wife should have embraced the CDing in order for your marriage to be happy, then I can understand the reasons for a divorce.

Obviously, if the husband experiences a complete gender change (a wish to live full time or near full time) and the wife cannot change her heterosexual romantic/physical attraction, then it is a different story. There cannot be a compromise if the husband is a woman and the wife wants to be married to a man. But it doesn't sound as if this is DM's situation.

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[SIZE="4"]Somethings we can compromise on and somethings are just not negotiable. Come on out of the fog and see reality. Anything that you can't talk about with your closest confidant and partner in life is a wall between you. It's not a compromise, it's a wall just like any other wall. It's purpose is to separate us. Doormat feels that separation acutely. Don't ask her to learn to live with it as you have.

You're right, most marriages are compromises. Exercises in toleration. People living together for the sake of the kids, finances, religion, etc. So often they don't even actually like one another! It's just a marriage of convenience. I see them all the time. It's sad.[/SIZE]

"...and if we don't like what we saw (which is usually the case)..."

"Usually the case"? Hmm...to me your words imply that in some cases you might like what you see. Is it possible if your H's female looks were different, as in perhaps being more convincingly pretty, overwhelmingly sexy, alluring or whatever it is you find appealing in some GG girls you see or know, that you'd have no problem 'cause you'd then be girl-on-girl attracted to what you saw?

Since this apparently isn't the case, you like him but not her.

Ok, I get that. Fair enough ;)

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Originally Posted by Lynn Marie

[SIZE="4"]Somethings we can compromise on and somethings are just not negotiable. Come on out of the fog and see reality.[/SIZE]

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Um, isn't that what I said? Have a look at the last paragraph in my post that you quoted. Obviously, if a husband expects full and unconditional support, approximating glee, and the wife is having a difficult time with her husband's feminine expression, then it won't work. If the husband is TS (even if he doesn't acknowledge this), or is in a deep Pink Fog, then it won't work.

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Originally Posted by Lynn Marie

[SIZE="4"]Doormat feels that separation acutely. Don't ask her to learn to live with it as you have.[/SIZE]

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I'm not. See the last paragraph in my post #20. My point, rather, is for a wife to recognize who her husband is, try to understand where it is coming from, dispel what she thinks it might be based on being raised in a world that knows nothing other than the m/f gender binary, so that she can put it in perspective. She doesn't have to "embrace" it as you suggested earlier in order for their marriage to be happy. But she can learn more about it so it doesn't freak her out as much. The benefit to trying to understand this is for the wife's own peace of mind more than her husband's. They can still negotiate boundaries and if she still does not want to be involved after she has taken the time to see past the fetish aspect of this (providing her husband's motive is not sexual fetish), that's up to her. But at least she won't drive herself crazy if she knows that her husband is dressing while she's out visiting her mother.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

I really want to contribute to this even if I am just agreeing with other posts. I don't have a problem with that as it gives Doormat (DM) a rounded view of opinion here. I also want to thank DM for posting and starting a tremendously helpful discussion.

I think Reine is right on the ball as usual with where my head is. I used to closet dress (ie she didn't know) for years... I was worried it would freak my wife out and I always thought it would go away - as we all know and as I have done since I joined here, it doesn't. I decided not to tell but took it more seriously. Yeah, she found out but has never seen me fully cross-dressed - just found things when I'd been careless. We have had a few sparky moments that indicate her feelings about this are far from good (though she accepts it is okay for other guys to do this)... but we are now in a classic DADT relationship. She knows that I do, but doesn't want anything to do with it. She doesn't want to see anything or hear anything about it... BUT... she gives me a lot of time and space.

We have three grown up daughters by the way... we could separate (except dealing with the house and money gets complicated), but the reality is that we have had a solid relationship over the years and we value and love each other, in the way that mature loving couples of our age tend to. She is my best friend and my wife and we have shared a lot together. So I am happy with the way things are really... OK I would like to get away for a few days every now and again and get to 'transform' fully - used to be easier than it is now - but I have NO DESIRE to involve her at all!

She wants me to be the guy she has known all these years, the guy she married. OK, I still am, but she cannot accept this other side of me as part of her life - though she does accept that it is a part of my life and an important one. So here we are. The big point is that I respect her views and will totally support them. And I think this is where DM needs to move her H to. He really needs to be appreciative of who she is and her needs and feelings...

I don't know if frustrated is the word...I think saddened or disappointed might describe how I would feel if my wife couldn't accept me in my entirety. I know that it's a strongly held emotion, value or belief we are talking about...but values and beliefs, reactions and emotions can change. All to often, with all due respect to those in DADT relationships, accepting and dealing with reality seems to less important than preserving cherished, but erroneous beliefs.

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Originally Posted by DoorMat

[B]...I don't like my H's dressing because, despite what he sees when looking in a mirror, I see my H in a dress and he looks sort of silly. Doesn't matter how well he's dressed or how good his makeup, he's still just my H looking silly. No offense to anyone here as this is not a comment about all of you, just my personal feelings...

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I think it would be wrong for anyone to deny you your feelings on this or any other matter.

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...I understand it's an urge, a need, but from a GG perspective, it's a very strange one! So is this really how he wants me to see him? As silly and strange?...

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Of course he does not what you to see him as silly or strange. You may have accepted that as your reality, but it doesn't have to be that way. It's all really up to you how you view him both today and in the future.

My suspicion is that he's looking for kindness and acceptance from you, and some sense of normalcy with regard to his gender issues. The common scenario is that he's likely grown weary of hiding a part of himself and wishes for you to see ALL of him for the first time.

For any relatively healthy adult, isolation over time is emotionally self-destructive, but worse yet, an SO's rejection can be devastating. Just about any male who experiences gender-identity issues over a long period of time can tell you about all of the negative feelings associated with it. Perhaps your H is feeling some of these negative emotions and is reaching out to you in order to close some of what he perceives as emotional distance between you and he, that his secretive crossdressing probably caused, to basically feel better about himself, and maybe even to feel better about how he feels you perceive him as a life partner.

My wife and I often talk about the enormous burden that gender identity issues can become when we as individuals try to navigate them in isolation. I can only image how awful it must feel to not be able to confide and share this with the one who is supposed to be our closest ally. Granted, sometimes, we do it to ourselves by not being honest about who we are from the start.

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...Surely it's better then, that I don't, and that he indulges this need without completely destroying how I see him as a man...

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If he was incapacitated, bedridden, or confined to a wheelchair due to an accident, would that also destroy how you see him as a man? In any of these examples, the way in which he appears to you visually would suddenly be completely different, and no longer in line with what we normally think of when we think of a healthy man. With this in mind, where is the dividing line between what you could accept and what you could not with regard to the image you have of him as a man and husband? Further, which is more important: your "image" of him or his feeling of being loved and accepted by you?

In comparing your life before the moment you knew about your H's crossdressing, to immediately after you found out, nothing changed about your H except the knowledge you gained in that find. He's still the same person you married, its just that now you know about the secret side.

In these instances, being perpetually angry is easy. What's hard is getting past the anger and looking at what is truly important.

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...I'm better off leaving and letting him spend all day out with other GG's who apparently make him feel good. Funny that, given THEY don't have to live with it. Believe me, were they living with this, they might see this as something other than a quaint quirk. And maybe, just maybe, these other GG's are just being polite. I know I would be amused and even curious if I had a CD client. But marrying him? I don't think so!

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My wife knew about ALL facets of me before we were married. She's supportive and encouraging, and also honest when I need a dose of real honesty. While I don't deny you your right to be angry and hurt by your find, it's not accurate or fair to claim sisterhood and lump all women together in terms of who they would and would not marry. Further, my wife is not being polite or humoring me with regard to my gender flux, and the same can be said for a good number of the other folks here.

This whole situation is an excellent example of why it is so important to be completely honest with one another when those of us with gender-identity issues enter into relationships. The trust that is diminished when these secrets are discovered within a marriage often times can never be restored fully.

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Originally Posted by Kaz

And I think this is where DM needs to move her H to. He really needs to be appreciative of who she is and her needs and feelings...

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DM cannot move H. He has to move himself.

By the same token, neither H nor anybody at CD.com can make DM change her feelings/views.

If either one of them feels that they cannot continue in the relationship without the other changing, the relationship is not long for this world. But if they can make a truce on this issue -- something that both can live with, if not like -- and will hold to it like grown-ups, there may be a possibility of time working some sort of magic.

The advantage of true DADT is that it gives both people time -- relief from pressure -- to change on their own.

I am in a log term relationship with a girl who doesn't know about my dressing. I'd love to tell her, but I'm scared of two things:

1. Rejection
2. Acceptance, but at the cost of a load more baggage being piled onto my girlfriend, who has to put up with so much from her family. I don't want to be another thing in her life that brings her down, the guilt would be unbearable.

DM, it's really interesting reading your thoughts, and although it depresses me greatly, it's good to get that grounding in reality that we all need sometimes. I think your husband is pushing you too far, and needs to back down. You didn't sign up for this and it's not fair of him to push it upon you. I feel awful hiding such a secret from my SO but after reading this I wonder if given the choice she'd rather not know.

Anyway I hope you find a way forward that works for you, whatever that may be, and you can move on to being fluffybathmat.

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Originally Posted by kimdl93

I think saddened or disappointed might describe how I would feel if my wife couldn't accept me in my entirety.

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That's a great point, Kim, and I think it's important to point out for novices like DM, that your words, "in my entirety", varies greatly among individuals. You among several others here, experience the need to present in a feminine manner a bulk of the time, although you can muster a male appearance when necessary. Other members here cannot muster any male appearance at all, namely the transitioned/transitioning TSs. And still others feel a duality in their gender identity to varying degrees and their need to express femininity is not as constant as the first two. And last, there are members here who feel no feminine gender identity at all.

In other words, there is a spectrum.

A wife who has difficulty with all of this will have a greater chance coming to terms with (and note I am not saying "embracing" :p) a husband who genuinely does have a strong male component to his gender identity, than a husband who doesn't. And such a husband will find it easier to cope with a wife who has difficulty with the CDing, more than a husband whose male gender identity is very weak or non existent. So the two may be rather closer than they think.

I would very much like to hear from DM's husband at this point to find out where he sits along the spectrum since it is difficult to help DM without knowing this.

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Originally Posted by Asche

DM cannot move H. He has to move himself.

By the same token, neither H nor anybody at CD.com can make DM change her feelings/views.

If either one of them feels that they cannot continue in the relationship without the other changing, the relationship is not long for this world. But if they can make a truce on this issue -- something that both can live with, if not like -- and will hold to it like grown-ups, there may be a possibility of time working some sort of magic.

The advantage of true DADT is that it gives both people time -- relief from pressure -- to change on their own.

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Whilst I accept your philosophical perspective, I disagree... we move people by influence and structured arguement... it was ever so... My perspectives have changed through discussions on this forum... but I accept that for change to happen beneficially we have to be open to influence and persuasion... that is down to personal choice...

Fluffy, your feelings are entirely understandable given your last post. Sounds like he is not merely requesting a modification of your agreed upon compromise but is more or less demanding it and trying to run it down your throat. And you obviously did not sign up for it and likely never would have married him had you known.

????????

He HAS managed for X # of years [either through fear or respect] to hide it from his brother and parents and probably doesn't want your kids to know but in the last five years now, is insisting that you change your views. Sounds like a lack of respect to me at least concerning his CDing. He has this crazy idea that many have. That Love conquers all. In Fairy Tales maybe.

You COULD stop him from dressing at home [when and if you are around] if it bothers you that much. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. [if he refuses to listen]

Might I ask a question of you? What IF he decided to come out to his parents and brother and maybe even kids without your knowledge? And what IF they all accepted him. Might it change your opinion any? Of maybe how much it means to him? I doubt it but who knows. We all like what we like and don't need a specific reason for our feelings.

For what it's worth, I don't think a counselor would help you any. I have a good friend who IS a counselor and she has told me on more than one occasion, that by the time most people come to counseling, too much water has gone under the bridge.

If it's any consolation, I think you have been more than fair with him by your account of things.

You do give all indication that you still think he is a good father and husband and still Love him.

DoorMat; If I treated my wife as your husband is treating you, I would expect her to bail. There is absolutely no obligation for you to participate in any manner with his cross dressing. Your relationship is no a DADT relationship. It is a relationship of emotional abuse. One cannot equate participation with cross dressing in the same light as watching sports. My wife does not want anything to do with my cross dressing. When we were young and naive we did not know what cross dressing is. There was bedroom play, but, it was not interpreted as cross dressing. When we BOTH realized what my interest was, my wife's slant on my wearing negligees changed. This was more than Halloween. This was more than fooling around. This was a game changer for her, and, for ME. We had that heart to heart ELEVATED discussion and crying.

I could not figure out why I did this, so how could I explain it to her. I spent years hoping she would participate. But, she didn't and won't. I had to self examine my motives and why it was necessary to pressure her. I wanted her to fully accept every aspect of my personalities. But, was it necessary? I decided upon self reflection, not why I did it, but, what did my cross dressing bring me. What it brought me was a sense of peace and tranquility about issues that were not of her making. They are my issues.

You are young and have a career. If hubby has violated your inner most core principles and expectations of marriage, trying to change him, and, he change you, will not work or happen. It's time for a reality check.

Heck, you stated, if you knew he was a cross dresser you (and the vast majority of women) would not marry the guy. Heck, I would never marry a smoker.

If DM and her H can't agree on, and live by boundaries as far as CDing is concerned, then split! I'm not trying to be mean. "Accepting someone in their entirety," as Kim said so well, is a foundation for a great relationship. I can't imagine living with, much less marrying a person who accepted me only partially, or whom I accepted only partially. That sounds like hell.

Hi DoorMat... your H is being a selfish insensitive pig. You are right to feel angry and resentful over this. You didn't sign up for this when you got married did you? I'm continually amazed at the entitled attitude that a lot of the girls display here but really, if you get married without telling your SO about your crossdresing, you're not entitled to anything, except divorce. A lot of girls expect you to understand and accept their crossdressing, but don't put in a similar effort in understanding and accepting YOUR feelings. There is a huge difference between acceptance of crossdressing and participation in it, I can't believe people are stupid enough to link them together. Your H needs to get that through his thick skull, be thankful that he has DADT, and not push his luck anymore.

And newsflash to crossdressers: heterosexual woman are not interested in you! If you want a GG to dress up with find a bisexual one and make sure you tell her BEFORE you start the relationship. It's just good manners really.

Thank you everyone for your responses! I am actually quite surprised by most of them, given much of the topics I have read on this forum during my many months of lurking. I expected everyone to be on my H's side while encouraging me to fully accept his dressing or give up.

Of course, some here do feel a wife should fully accept and I do understand this if the husband involved is a fulltime crossdresser etc. I probably should have placed more information with my initial rant (sorry about the anger but this has become a very touchy subject lately) and explained that my H has actually been dressing for most of his life, but not very often and even now that we are in the middle of this 'war' he still says he only needs to dress once a week, sometimes only once a month. I don't have a problem with how often as I don't see this changing as my H is actually very masculine and from the conversations we have had, he doesn't see himself as having much of feminine side. He just likes to present feminine on occasion, if this makes sense?

I'll be honest, it doesn't really to me! lol

Anyway, it's helped a lot to have my feelings validated that he's pushing me too hard. I think so, too. Funny, but when I first found out five years ago, he didn't. In fact, he sort of brushed it under the carpet and I didn't hear much more about it. This was true DADT, I guess, and selfishly I liked this stage or our 14 year marriage! But then, for whatever reason that even he can't explain, he decided a few months ago that this wasn't working for him anymore and that he wants to bring this out into our relationship and have me know what he's up to etc. Sort of like a midlife CD crisis!

I've pondered everyone's thoughts posted here and have realized that he's probably decided he does need more acceptance from me. But why now? I am not sure. We have had external family issues to contend with that have certainly made us both more reflective on our lives. Would it be fair to say that CD is a part of the person? It's very hard as a GG to understand how dressing as the opposite gender can be a 'part' of someone, but I'm really trying. If it is a part of my H, then I can sort of understand why he would need validation of this part. I just wish I wasn't to repelled by the whole thing. Someone here was very correct when they mentioned socialization and upbringing. At no point was I taught of crossdressing or even knew men did such a thing! Men are men and women and women and everything else is seen on stage. lol

He really is a good husband otherwise and on an intellectual level I know he didn't choose this path. But neither did I, and often times I think of all the other paths I would rather walk down and all the other things I'd rather think about/do with my H. I understand this is something he MUST do, but it's infinitely sad to me that we are at such odds with the things we like to do together. Crossdressing is definitely an enigma.

I also thought I would mention the family dynamic - I don't feel it would help me to have them know as I doubt they would understand. I think they would only make both of us feel worse and the parents are just too old to gain any benefit from this knowledge. However, I have confided in a close friend and she has been a huge source of non-judgmental support and has never once suggested I leave my H. But she knows him quite well too, and can see the man he is otherwise. She's also seen it all and can list quite a few worse things he could be doing!

But back to the DADT and my H pushing CD on me, I have decided to sit him down and have a straight conversation with him as this can't carry on. Talking here has made me realize that he probably isn't doing this to intentionally hurt me and that he likely just wants me to acknowledge this part of him exists. But he also needs to BACK OFF and let me deal in my time. This is going way too fast.

I won't be quite so abrupt, of course.:)

I do have one question: given what I have read here and how addictive CD seems to be for many men, will any further tolerance on my part cause my H to escalate his dressing? I don't think I could handle that, but it's a big fear. I also don't want to be seen as a control freak who refuses to learn or understand because of a fear of escalation, but I really do worry that he might fall further into this 'pink fog' you all talk of.

And in response to the question about whether my H looking really good as a woman would have made me feel better and even possibly turned me on? Hell no! lol. I'm sexually and emotionally attracted to all things masculine - the smell, the look, the texture of a man. I think you have all been surprisingly kind and accepting and understanding of this rather angry wife, and from your profiles I can see many of you make very beautiful women, but I want you all to know that your male sides are very much appreciated too. I feel sad when I read of the dislike of masculinity and how male clothes are 'drab' etc. Men are also beautiful, and I wanted you all to know that. :)

Hello Door Mat

You and my wife should meet, she just aquired a black stallion and will be setting out on the persecution of those crossdressing infidels.:heehee:

Thera

P.S. Im first on her hitlist

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Originally Posted by TVAmanda

You didn't sign up for this when you got married did you?

And newsflash to crossdressers: heterosexual woman are not interested in you! If you want a GG to dress up with find a bisexual one and make sure you tell her BEFORE you start the relationship. It's just good manners really.

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No, I didn't' sign up for this as I didn't know for the first 9 years! And I have told my H this exact thing - that he should have married a bisexual girl during one of our more volatile conversations and honestly, I think he honestly believes all women ARE bisexual. It's just so hard for him to comprehend that someone might not like femininty. It's conversations like this that have driven me here. I now see this is inappropriate and uncommon behavior for most CD men and I will be letting him know this!

LOL,,,,,, He's screwed ,,,; LOL,,,, He ,,Your H Better quit while he's ahead cuz I tell ya what sissta seems to me an this is just me talking here ,,,That you dont want NOTHING to do with an will never want nothing to do with it ! Hey thats OK,,, Cuz I tell ya I dont like sports ,,An won't ever ,,, No matter what ,,So I know where ya coming from when ya say you dont understand it ,,,, It ,,, meaning the dressing ,,, I won't ever understand any kind of sports ,,, I know why they play ,,I know what it is ,,But I just don't like it an will never like it . So Homeboy betta go back in Da Closet B-Fo he be livin by his self ,,,LOL,,,,, ROCK ON ,,, An dont back off !! Cuz he has the right to be happy ,,,An so do you !!

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Originally Posted by DoorMat

Of course, some here do feel a wife should fully accept and I do understand this if the husband involved is a fulltime crossdresser etc.

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I think there are different levels of acceptance.

I think if you are going to remain in this relationship, you have to accept that he is a CD and is going to remain so, in much the same sense that if you live in Maine (USA), you are going to have to accept that it's going to snow in the winter. You don't have to like it, but you'll have to make your peace with how things are.

On the other hand, you don't have to enjoy it or participate in it. To continue the snow metaphor, you don't have to want to roll in the snow and have snowball fights, and if you don't like snow, your H should make peace with the fact that you're likely to spend every winter inside, next to a radiator, grumbling until spring.

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Originally Posted by DoorMat

It's just so hard for him to comprehend that someone might not like femininity. It's conversations like this that have driven me here.

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It sounds like he needs to work on learning to accept you as you are, and not just as an extension of his own needs; in particular, he needs to accept how you feel about CDing, even though it's not the way he feels about it.

BTW, this is a depressingly common problem among CDers. You may have noticed that posts crop up rather regularly by CDers asking why "Women" don't seem to enjoy high heels, pantyhose, make-up, and all the other parts of performing femininity as much as they do. And other CDers have to remind them: "hey, not everybody is you."

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Originally Posted by TVAmanda

...And newsflash to crossdressers: heterosexual woman are not interested in you! If you want a GG to dress up with find a bisexual one and make sure you tell her BEFORE you start the relationship. It's just good manners really.

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Are you implying that a woman has to be potentially sexually compatible with someone who exhibits gender identity issues in order to have any sort of mutual connection (intellectual or otherwise)?

If so, I can tell you from experience, this is completely false. What you don't seem to be acknowledging is the fact that, for someone with gender identity issues, there's more to connecting with other people than just playing dress-up.

Doormat, at #44 you indicate there was an uptick in his need to include you in his cross dressing. If there has been in the past a DADT marriage, and, he is now forcing the issue of your non participation, I suspect there is something else going on. What is the catalyst for his actions? The issue may not be cross dressing. Is there stress at work? Is raising the ante an excuse for you to dump him? As you've probably read many times on this site, many times marriages are terminated because of reasons other than cross dressing. Cross dressing just becomes a convenient excuse. Cross dressing may the lesser reason of many. Kind of a no fault divorce. "I dumped him because he is a cross dresser." "She dumped me because I'm a cross dresser."

Some of us, like I, have found cross dressing is a stress reliever for issues that arose prior to marriage and have nothing to do with masculinity and femininity. Additional stresses compound other stresses. I would seek out what stresses your husband is encountering. If there are other stresses he needs to deal with them.