What a great answer! I'm onboard with that.Originally Posted by tgirlceleste
What a great answer! I'm onboard with that.
Do I love being a woman? Sure I do.
Being treated as a normal person when in pubic is all I want, even if I'm not fooling anybody.
I think many of us believe we are women...in one shape form or another. "Passing" is over used. You transform yourself from a man to a woman...why?...because it's your nature.
I can't agree more with these comments. I've only met one TS who passed perfectly. She was petite and she transitioned at a very young age.
My SO and I go out A LOT, all over the place. To describe her, her hands and feet are smaller than mine, she has her own long curly mid back hair (no wig), she has no beard shadow (laser), and she is only 1" or so taller than me when we go out, because I wear 4" heels. She does not have an overly male forehead, brow, nose, or jaw. People who pass us by do not notice anything. People that we interact directly with, such as the people who serve us, do notice. They likely think that my SO is a TS and transitioning. They are all very nice to us, and they do not ask questions.
When we sit in restaurants, most people don't give us a second glance, but the people who do notice us tend to stare a little longer. I've noticed a questioning look in their eyes. Also, people tend to remember us, even if we haven't been to a place for 6 months. I can't help but think it is because they don't see too many transpersons, and so they just remember. Most everyone is friendly though. This is because we are at arm's length in their lives, but that's OK.
It's a mistake to take an absence of comments, snickers, insults, etc, as passing. Most people don't care enough to say anything.
Last edited by ReineD; 03-28-2013 at 12:31 AM. Reason: Added quote.
Reine
Hey Barbara,
You were just the recipient of the reality police, which most of us are one time or another here. What probably got so much attention is the passing comment. As Marleena has said they are a regular topic here. She hates those type of threads and I really do not care as long as the thread and posts are interesting. As you can see Marleena replied more than once here, so there was some interest on her part. The main issue and most here believe it, is that a very rare few of us can really pass 100%. Some of us get close and others will not get close. That doesn't mean that they all shouldn't try a few outings to see if that is something that they can enjoy doing.
People that pass normally are very young, petite and have the natural looks that they seem to pass, at least in the pics here, without any need for makeup. The others that I notice pass or blend extremely well are the plus sized women. I think that most people who think that they pass really do not. They probably blend in very well from their looks, mannerisms and confidence. As already said, very few people will actually make a scene when they ID a CD. They glance, sneak a peak and may make a comment to a friend, just as they might do when they see a non-CD, someone who may be very attractive, butt ugly or very different. The fact that they are basically not interested when they see a CD is good for all of us and another reason to help overcome one's own fear of trying to go out.
Please keep your thread going, I think that we are all waiting for the next installments.
And old age too. There is less of a gap between men's and women's looks in their 70s as there is in middle age. Men lose testosterone, women lose estrogen, and gravity has the same effect on both their faces.
Reine
Yeah, this seems completely plausible to me. I can't speak about "passing" in public yet, because I haven't tried, but I've been handicapped my whole life, and the reason they notice and remember you is because you are different. People notice me, and some stare at me, and always have. I'm remembered almost every place I go after a single visit. Kids tend to be the most open about it. I don't really notice it much anymore.
The real trick is to make yourself not notice that others are noticing you. You do that - and it really doesn't matter.
I would suspect this applies to any situation where you appear to be "different" in public. It's easier too - you only have to fool one person - yourself.
Last edited by PaulaQ; 03-28-2013 at 12:50 AM.
Having just returned from a short excursion out en femme, I feel qualified to comment here with regard to my own experience.
I have no idea if I passed or not as I walked through the supermarket, or at the drive-through where the guy behind the window asked me, "How you doin'?" and I responded "I'm fine, thank you!" with a smile in my enthusiastic Amy-voice. For all I know, I could have been read "bigger than s***," as my fiancee would put it. But nobody treated me oddly; I was greeted at the store by one clerk, but no one accosted me or anything. In sum, I experienced my shopping trip as a GG might have experienced it. So I'm happy.
This is not to say I wasn't trying to pass; I was dressed in a fairly casual manner (blue denim dress, cardigan for the chill, boots) and was wearing the makeup I wore on camera earlier. I don't think I ever got more than cursory inspection; everyone there probably saw what they expected to see, a lady out shopping, and just paid it no mind.
So, did I "pass"? I don't really care; I think I handled myself well and that my confidence in being a lady in public is improving. I'm happy.
- Amy
Amy Gale Ruth Bowersox (nee Tapie) - "Be who you are, and be it in style!"
Member, Board of Trustees, Gender Identity Center of Colorado
aka Amelia Storm - Ms. Majestic Hearts of All Colorado 2018-2019, Miss Majestic Hearts of All Colorado 2015-2016
Glad you had a good time, Amy!
I'm curious, do you feel treated differently when you're dressed than when you're not, by people like the guy behind the window or the cashier at the supermarket? For example, had you been in guy mode, would the window guy still have said, "How you doing"?
I asked my SO once and she didn't know how to explain it ... if she felt that she was being treated differently while dressed as a woman, compared to guy mode.
The reason I ask is, I've often been in line for things ... coffee at Starbucks for example. And I've not noticed the people at the counters treating male and female customers differently. But, maybe there are subtle differences that I cannot see?
Reine
I'm not sure, Reine. When I went through that drive-through at Good Times, there was a lady that took my order, for two drinks. When I got to the actual window, she took my money, but the other guy, the one that said "How you doin'?", handed me one of the drinks before she handed me the other. Either it was a slow night, or perhaps I was getting some extra attention. But I didn't feel like it was in a "bad" way; I felt good about it, in fact. (I suppose they could have been collapsing in hysterics before I'd got the car as much as fifty feet away...but I've no reason to believe that.) The only disappointing thing was that I didn't get "ma'amed" like the last time I was at a drive-through. Now that would really have made my day.
I didn't pass too close to the supermarket cashier, either; as I walked in, I walked straight through the self-checkout area towards the freezers and only barely heard him greet me. Then, when I came back out, I used self-checkout. So no clue either way there.
- Amy
Last edited by Lorileah; 03-28-2013 at 12:13 PM. Reason: no need to quote the whole post above yours :)
Amy Gale Ruth Bowersox (nee Tapie) - "Be who you are, and be it in style!"
Member, Board of Trustees, Gender Identity Center of Colorado
aka Amelia Storm - Ms. Majestic Hearts of All Colorado 2018-2019, Miss Majestic Hearts of All Colorado 2015-2016
You are singing my song, You are right, we dont have to pass 100% I know I dont, but it does not matter if you know how to carry yourself as a woman, and being confident goes along ways toward passing as a woman and blending in when out and about. I am plus sized girl myself, and I am very comfortable in my own skin as a plus sized woman.
Not offended Barbara just a bit sceptical that’s all.
No, no, I'm not suggesting they might have laughed or you didn't pass. I think many of CDers pass in different situations. You were in your car. It just gets tricky when having a conversation with people up close though ... or at least this has been my SO's experience.But I didn't feel like it was in a "bad" way; I felt good about it, in fact. (I suppose they could have been collapsing in hysterics before I'd got the car as much as fifty feet away...but I've no reason to believe that.) The only disappointing thing was that I didn't get "ma'amed" like the last time I was at a drive-through. Now that would really have made my day.
Back to my question ... members often say they love to go out and be treated as women. I don't switch to a different gender, so I only know one way that people treat me. I was wondering if there is a difference based on presentation, for those who do switch back and forth.
So, other than being called "Ma'am" and perhaps having a door opened for you while you're dressed, is there any way that you (or anyone else) perceive being treated or spoken to that is different than when you are presenting as a male?
.... or is it more the knowledge that you got away with it?
Last edited by ReineD; 03-28-2013 at 04:07 AM.
Reine
I'm sorry Barbara Jean, but the excuse of "not having a camera" for not showing a picture of yourself even just as an avatar is pretty lame. As hard as it is for me to lend any creadance to the comments of those unwilling to show me their transformation skills, it's even harder when they are teaching me how to "pass".
Lynn Marie
Click here to see me on Flickr
my friend finnaly coaxed me into foing out with him to a bar for karioki night. he introduced me to some of his friends from work. i kept to myself for most of the night. later he told me that they had no idea i was a dude til i said something. unfortunately, they were aall bears . kinda goes with a grain of salt cuz they dont spemd much time looking at women, but i guess it counts for something. closest ive come to passing yet. i do think i will wait on taking passing advice until i see some pictures. passing for a heavier shorter older person is different than passing as a 6'3 28 yearold with a size 8 waist. i also want to point out that, as unintentional as it may have been, your passing claims did come off a bit smug at first. i will gobble up any aditional info i can that i might be able to put to use so i will be folowing this series.
"Your transformation is not a disease. You were just given the key to the door in front of you. There's no need to know the cause. No need for sorrow or sadness. What comes next is up to you. You can use your keys to open the door...or lock it tight." - Urahara Kisuke
Very intrigued.
I'm not offended at all by what your views are of yourself. I know that I don't pass to observant folk but I am treated like a lady.
What troubles me is the impact on CDers who would like to venture out but will see passing as important. Most CDers are very realistic about whether or not they pass.
For a CDer to accept that they will be seen by some as a man in a skirt is empowering.
You touched on something very interesting here Reine that unfortunately may be lost in the tail end of this thread.Also, people tend to remember us, even if we haven't been to a place for 6 months. I can't help but think it is because they don't see too many transpersons, and so they just remember. Most everyone is friendly though. This is because we are at arm's length in their lives, but that's OK.
It is quite amazing the number of times that I have returned to a cafe, shop, etc and been greeted warmly and genuinely on my return. Maybe its by standing out as different. Maybe its being open about being male that they don't feel deceived. Maybe its just that they are good people persons. But it happens so regularly.
My answer based on a number of recent experiences is 'absolutely'. Example, I have started doing the Friday shopping dressed the past 3 weeks. I don't go to the same supermarket (too close to home) but I do go to the same fruit market. Now, I don't pass and my voice is still male. Two out of three times I have been asked at the check out whether I would like the box carried to the car. I have never been asked that in years and years of going to the shop as a male.
And yes Reine - doors opened, men standing aside to let me in or out of lifts first, and 'this lady was before me' comments. I do sometimes wonder if they only knew what lies beneath the femaleness would they be so polite. I have an untested theory that they still would be as polite. Subconsciously men are reacting to the presentation, how I perceive myself and how I act.
Last edited by Lorileah; 03-28-2013 at 12:18 PM. Reason: Merged three posts into one. Please use multiquote or reply to all poists in one post
I've never asked any of the people who have only seen my SO dressed why they accept us, but I have some theories. I'm putting myself in their shoes and trying to imagine for a moment that I had never met a TS/TG/CD.
First, I think the idea that men who present as women are *shock* "perverted" has gone the way of the dinosaur for many people. Our society is much more aware of gender and sexual diversity than it was even a short generation ago. A large chunk of people now support gay marriage! And so people for the most part don't place the severe moral judgments on diversity like they used to. It is no longer seen purely as an abhorrence or a moral deficiency (in many circles). Also, business owners are grateful for the business, there is no reason why they should refuse to deal with a TG just because of the cross-gender expression, and it is good business to be friendly to all customers.
Second, because there is more of a "live and let live" attitude, people don't feel personally threatened when they interact directly with a TG. Also strangers see the TG at the periphery of their lives - most know they will not run into this person again - so it's a lot easier to have a "whatever" attitude and to maybe make a small mental note and then move on, if they are among the people who still judge this unfavorably. But, should the same people's lives mesh more closely with the TG, they might not want to get closer: for example a young CD is treated wonderfully by a SA, but she wouldn't want to develop the relationship further should he ask her for a date. And this is why I think that employers are squeamish about hiring a person who crossdresses in front of clients, it would be difficult for a male teacher to get a job if he wanted to crossdress in the classroom ... or CDs and their wives are reluctant to tell all their friends and acquaintances about the CDing. There is still a degree of bias about it when it touches people more closely than arm's length, even though it is not thought of in as severe terms as it was a generation ago.
Last, I also think it's a novelty for some people and they are interested in learning more because of this, to satisfy their curiosity. I often wonder if, at the dinner table that night, the young waitress who was so nice to us would tell others that she "saw that TG person again today".
Last edited by ReineD; 03-28-2013 at 12:00 PM.
Reine
I'm sure that many of those with whom I interact would talk to others about me. Fact of life with anyone or anything considered interesting.
One of my wife's sons is gay and she strongly supports gay marriage yet me wanting to CD was abhorrent. This validates (if a sample of one can do that) your theory that there is a line between positive reactions from dispassionate people and the abhorrence of those with whom we are emotionally connected.
The latter won't change so we are fortunate to CD at a time of increasing levels of tolerance and positive interaction within the community.
Last edited by Michelle (Oz); 03-28-2013 at 06:05 PM.
So many comments, so many ideas from so many people. I agree with some while others will agree about others. for me, it was, for years and years a case of going out and practising. that is the only way to discover your unobserved faults. Make sure there are no glaring errors and go out. It is the going out that is enjoyable, not the passing. It is the being out and being accepted for what you appear to be. Surely after sixty years of doing it I might just be correct.
~Samm
.
'Kerriana "Samantha.....i feel like I'm hearing her through fractured glass.. She makes sense if you kinda squint"
Barbara-Jean, I would only quibble with the use of the word WOMAN. Any person here is not going to be accepted as a woman, pure and simple. Because they are not and any woman that would be fooled would likely need very thick glasses (maybe with one or two exceptions).
I think it would be better (IMHO) to say that a person was accepted if they were dressed in the manner of a woman who was dressed as you are at that time.
It is a bit of theater and if the illusion is good enough even in bright light that a passer by would not hesitate to "see" you as a female, then you have pulled it off.
Whatever feminine sensibilities that CDs have are there whether they pass or not, dress or not. Frankly, I think that the CD cause is likely to go nowhere due to the difference in simply crossdressing and trying to emulate a woman with all the attendant gear. Societal wise, I think just blending some women's clothing as a male is going to go father that any theatrical notions.
This is a little snippet from a conversation between David Brooks and Gail from the NYT which I think could easily have meaning for crossdressers.
David: This leads to a general rule. If you want to win respect for your formerly excluded group, try to be more culturally conservative than anybody else. This is something the great and underappreciated A. Philip Randolph understood. You can be politically radical if you are culturally conservative and still get a hearing. The radicals of the 1960s got this one wrong.
Gail: That may be part of a larger rule, which is that people have to be able to identify with the excluded folks. The greatest warriors for gay marriage have been the average gay people who came out to their families and friends and communities. I grew up in one of the most socially conservative neighborhoods in Ohio, and my parents were traditional Catholics. But in her old age, my mother got her home health care from a guy who was gay, who was wonderful to her. Before she died, she rode a float in the Cincinnati Gay Pride Parade.
Last edited by busker; 03-28-2013 at 07:21 PM.
JUST a crossdresser
i love this post!
be the best you can be. check out my new pics on flickr!
www.youtube.com/user/cdjillphilly
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21116408@N02/
Having only gotten out of the car as Amy three times (and one of those was at the GIC, which doesn't count as much), I plead "insufficient data," Reine. It may take a few more times out as Amy (or a few dozen!) before I can say different.So, other than being called "Ma'am" and perhaps having a door opened for you while you're dressed, is there any way that you (or anyone else) perceive being treated or spoken to that is different than when you are presenting as a male? ... or is it more the knowledge that you got away with it?
- Amy
Amy Gale Ruth Bowersox (nee Tapie) - "Be who you are, and be it in style!"
Member, Board of Trustees, Gender Identity Center of Colorado
aka Amelia Storm - Ms. Majestic Hearts of All Colorado 2018-2019, Miss Majestic Hearts of All Colorado 2015-2016
Subbed for more content.
*gets popcorn*
I must say that this is one of the more interesting "pass" threads. For those of us that are out and about, I think I can say it's not about passing, it's about the IDC 'tude. (I Don't Care Attitude). I don't mean I don't care how I look, I mean I don't care what others say or do. I mean how to people with a disfigurement get out and about? They've developed a thick skin and just head on out.
Now as for blending, I try to raise the bar when I'm out and about. Way, and I mean way too many GGs around here just throw on a t-shirt, sweat pants, flip flops and head on out to the store. Not me. I go for a skirt or dress a nice pair of heels and try to look good. Not Sunday Church good, but nice. So, no I don't blend I just try to fit in.
So far, it's been pretty successful. I dress all the time, 'cept for work and go out full hair/makeup on the weekends and haven't looked back. I love GNOs with other CDrs and have even enjoyed a day light shopping trip or two....
For me, in the end, I try my best to look my best and then all I have to do is 'pass' the front door.......
Renne.....
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